If you are getting butthurt by spoilers, read a damn book.

The books have been out for 10+ years, they don't match the series, and the first three are great reading, so you're not losing anything by not reading them.

Also, Robb Stark and his mom are killed when he goes to wed whoosafudge at the river crossing, long before they reach King's Landing. But then his mom turns into a zombie.

Furthermore, Tywin Lannister gets shot on the shiatter by Tyrion with a crossbow, after which Tyrion kills Shay. This is also where the books derail into long passages of GRRM trying to figure out what to do next.

LeafyGreens: If you are getting butthurt by spoilers, read a damn book.

The books have been out for 10+ years, they don't match the series, and the first three are great reading, so you're not losing anything by not reading them.

Also, Robb Stark and his mom are killed when he goes to wed whoosafudge at the river crossing, long before they reach King's Landing. But then his mom turns into a zombie.

Furthermore, Tywin Lannister gets shot on the shiatter by Tyrion with a crossbow, after which Tyrion kills Shay. This is also where the books derail into long passages of GRRM trying to figure out what to do next.


Not sure what books you read but Rob Stark wins the Battle of the Trident using wildfire, his mother joins the Nights Watch as a nun, Tywin Lannister loses a duel with the Mountain, Shay gets with Roz in a lesbian relationship and Tyrion gets to ride a dragon.

Farking Canuck: legion_of_doo: he will have a hand in many of the scenes to come.

Very nice ... was that intentional?

We hadn't completely run out of puns with the last kingslayer talk on fark.

/ned is still way ahead in the severed body parts department

Odd Bird: (avoiding spoilers, didn't read comments or much of article)

Maisie Williams (Arya) - 15; I thought she was 12
Sophie Turner (Sansa) - 16; 'bout right
Jack Gleeson (Joffrey) - 19; you're kidding, looks like 14 or 15
Isaac Hempstead Wright (Bran) - 12; 'bout right

The biggest problem will be Bran. This is how he looked at the Season Two premier a couple of months ago. He's already looking older than the part...

The most recent two books are full of people doing nothing except run around in circles, avoiding the other "main" characters most of the time because interaction might advance the plot or spill the secret of where whores go.

/thpoilerth!

NeoCortex42: legion_of_doo: The most recent two books are full of people doing nothing except run around in circles, avoiding the other "main" characters most of the time because interaction might advance the plot or spill the secret of where whores go.

/thpoilerth!

You mean it's not whore island?

I never heard of washington dc called that before!

/yeah, yeah, politics tab over there

Fish in a Barrel: Why would you think this is a mistake? The season could be magical, in which case science doesn't enter into it.

I believe that's precisely the argument GRRM makes, but whatever. It doesn't address the problem, and it ain't scientific: The length of one Earth "year" is defined by one full cycle of the seasons. FWIW, we only figured out a good while afterwards (we're talking centuries even for the Ancient Greeks) that the cycle is caused by our orbit around the Sun. My point is, we use the term "one year" to refer to one full cycle of the seasons. That is the ancient, non-scientific definition of "year" that extends to the layman's understanding of the word, to this day.

So "the seasons last for years". . . means the years themselves lack any reference point. It can't be the seasons, unless it's some completely arbitrary fraction thereof. How the fark are the people of Westeros supposed to know how long a "year" is?

But to reiterate, this is not a big deal. I really don't care. In fantasy fiction, by itself it's a trivial oversight. My point isn't making hay about that per se; it's just an unfortunate fact that GRRM's general fast & loose play with the passage of time -- of which "seasons lasting years" is quite inconsequential but the most obvious -- is wreaking all kinds of havoc for HBO's shooting schedule.

While I'm glad theres an ASOIAF discussion going on, that article was terrible.

1. The creators of the show have already stated they want to split book 3 into two seasons. Each season getting a wedding.

2. George R. R. Martin has stated he would have made the kids older if he could go back and change the early books. About 3 years older to be exact.

And there is no "kid problem" they have cast some fine actors in the childrens' roles, and being in an environment with the high caliber of actors HBA has surrounded them with, I'm sure they will only get better. (See also: Harry Potter movies)

dragonchild: Fish in a Barrel: Why would you think this is a mistake? The season could be magical, in which case science doesn't enter into it.

I believe that's precisely the argument GRRM makes, but whatever. It doesn't address the problem, and it ain't scientific: The length of one Earth "year" is defined by one full cycle of the seasons. FWIW, we only figured out a good while afterwards (we're talking centuries even for the Ancient Greeks) that the cycle is caused by our orbit around the Sun. My point is, we use the term "one year" to refer to one full cycle of the seasons. That is the ancient, non-scientific definition of "year" that extends to the layman's understanding of the word, to this day.

So "the seasons last for years". . . means the years themselves lack any reference point. It can't be the seasons, unless it's some completely arbitrary fraction thereof. How the fark are the people of Westeros supposed to know how long a "year" is?

But to reiterate, this is not a big deal. I really don't care. In fantasy fiction, by itself it's a trivial oversight. My point isn't making hay about that per se; it's just an unfortunate fact that GRRM's general fast & loose play with the passage of time -- of which "seasons lasting years" is quite inconsequential but the most obvious -- is wreaking all kinds of havoc for HBO's shooting schedule.

This isn't an ancient civilization, its similar to our late 1500's/early 1600's. They probably define a year by rotation around the sun, not around seasons. So it isn't an oversight, and seasons really could last for years based on tilt, distance of the perihelion and aphelion, or could just be the climate has an accelerated cycle of warm/cool periods. Also, they seem to have mini-winters and mini-summers within the hot and cold periods, it isn't a straight 80 degree stretch of weather for years at a time, they still get snow in "summer." But I do find the fact that you "don't care" led you to rant on how it doesn't meet scientific reason yet you, don't understand science, amusing.

Confabulat: The Thoroughbred of Sin: Since this is a thread about the SHOW and not the books, anyone posting about events past Episode 4 of the second season is seriously out of bounds. Have some respect for others who are either enjoying the show or perhaps a book or two behind you. Seriously

Good luck with that. These idiots post everything about the books and then complain that it's your fault you haven't spent the last 15 years reading 5000 pages.

They'll get their burrowing rats in the end, farkers. Do you really feel cool because you posted stuff that's not on the show yet? Does it make you feel smart? Does it make your penis feel bigger than its usual 4 inches?

I don't care about spoilers too much. I enjoy the writing. The plot is fun, but not what the books are about.

MasterSFV: Tyrion gets to ride a dragon

pretty sure this is going to happen

MasterSFV: LeafyGreens: If you are getting butthurt by spoilers, read a damn book.

The books have been out for 10+ years, they don't match the series, and the first three are great reading, so you're not losing anything by not reading them.

Also, Robb Stark and his mom are killed when he goes to wed whoosafudge at the river crossing, long before they reach King's Landing. But then his mom turns into a zombie.

Furthermore, Tywin Lannister gets shot on the shiatter by Tyrion with a crossbow, after which Tyrion kills Shay. This is also where the books derail into long passages of GRRM trying to figure out what to do next.


Not sure what books you read but Rob Stark wins the Battle of the Trident using wildfire, his mother joins the Nights Watch as a nun, Tywin Lannister loses a duel with the Mountain, Shay gets with Roz in a lesbian relationship and Tyrion gets to ride a dragon.

Sorry you missed the part about Dany taking watery shiats.

She comes in colors everywhere: MasterSFV: Tyrion gets to ride a dragon

pretty sure this is going to happen

Tell me... can that take me where whores go?

/Where do whores go? x1brazillion
/grrm plan: if the character wants it, they don't get it unless it is messed up first

Girion47: This isn't an ancient civilization, its similar to our late 1500's/early 1600's. They probably define a year by rotation around the sun, not around seasons.

In order for the seasons to last that long, the orbit itself must expand (bear in mind only Earth's orbit lasts one Earth year). . . so if you're using the orbital defintion of "year", you get the same issue. There is no reason for this world to think of 365 days as anything other than arbitrary, like, say, 113 days might be to us. That said, I honestly doubt GRRM put that much thought into this thing, which is kind of my point. I mainly brought it up as a snarky "LOL GRRM doesn't know what a year is" comment because I'm an astronomy geek. My inner literary critic OTOH understands he wanted the seasons to last "years" (with only "it's magic" as an explanation) for one simple reason: he intends to use the long winter as a future plot point, and that's fine.

Girion47: I do find the fact that you "don't care" led you to rant on how it doesn't meet scientific reason yet you, don't understand science, amusing.

Actually I had considered orbital variations, but your tone makes me wonder if that'd disappoint you. Sounds like you get amused by seeing people get upset, and prefer feeling smarter than others to lively discussion among equals. It's hard to call it a "rant" on my end because I haven't even entered said "lively discussion" territory yet. Now, I'm all for a lively discussion but that requires the topic to be more interesting than how stupid and enraged I am or dissecting an off-the-cuff remark. The thread topic, for example. I am curious to see how HBO plans to handle this.

Ashtrey: Moving soon so won't have cable or net (other than cell phone) for a week. Can't wait to find out what Joffrey did. Haven't seen any of season 2 but read all the books years back so not afraid of spoilers.

For you and the other guy who wanted to know.

Joffrey is having Sansa stripped and beaten in front of the court, in a fit of pique about Rob Starck's success in a recent battle. Tyrion interrupts this and embarrasses Joffrey in front of the court by stating how dishonourable it is to treat his future wife that way, has her covered, and helps her up.

Tyrion's guard guy stated a belief that Joffrey was being a prat because of blue balls. Imp rents a couple of whores for him (the two whores we've come to know - the smart redhead from the North and the real dim bulb) as a birthday present.

Joffrey, with all the signs of some scared and impotent virgin, first has the redhead spank the other, then beat her with a studded belt, and then with a very large wooden sceptre with a stag's head with pointy horns. He says he's going to have them taken to Tyrion to show him 'what she's done'.

The impression one gets (and I was quite relieved when I first heard the whore struck with the sceptre) is he possibly made the one whore rape the other with the pointy sceptre.

Heron: Skyrmion: Heron: ha-ha-guy: knightofargh: doglover: Kind of. By at the same time, what happens to him, ALL OF IT, isn't even full justice.

Speaking as a parent, I'd [SPOILER for the 2 people left that haven't made it 100 pages in or through 1 episode] toss Bran out of a window myself.

More so after his fall, whiny little farker.

What's killing me is all the Starks I liked are dead (aside from Jon Snow). Anything involving the North now is just "urgh" as I read it. With his next book I just want the ability to buy a copy that has the Tyrion and Jon Snow chapters in it (I know about the ending to the last one, but remember Fire Priestess) and forget the rest. Maybe Daenyrs as well.

---Spoilers---

I'm pretty sure Martin is on record either saying Jon isn't dead, or heavily implying that Jon isn't dead.

That's probably why he said "aside from Jon Snow". It's pretty clear just from various clues dropped in the text that he's not going to be perma-dead.

Oh, duh; when I read that I totally missed the"aside". Weird, stupid brain skipping text. Anyway; mea culpa.

The big problem is resurrection + GRRM = never ending series.

imgod2u: shortymac: Fish in a Barrel: Farking Canuck: It is just that the character is not half as smart as she thinks she is. She destroys long term Lannister relationships for short term gains. And the gains are very questionable as they are all based on her paranoia.

She's not just paranoid, she's also insecure. She hates anyone who questions her in even the smallest detail. The combination means that she drives away anyone of competence with the tools she needs to reign. The end result is that she is surrounded by useless sycophants who pose no direct thread to her, but who constantly undermine her with their incompetence.

You also have to remember she has power, but being a woman was never taught how to use it. (other than seduction and poisoning). She also isn't privy to her father's counsels, etc but is trying to act ruthless like him.

Tywin was merely going to marry her off while Jaime and Tyrion got educated by a maester and fighting skills. When cersei makes a bargin with the faith she doesn't realize why it is a bad idea, but Jaime does.

She also gets very paranoid considering the events in book 3 which clouds her decisions.

She talks a lot on her inequality and she is a textbook example on penis envy. Sometimes I think you have to be a chick to get her.

Most of the women are pretty batshait irrational in the book. The most stark example being Catelyn. I mean, my god woman, take 5 seconds and think about the larger consequences of your actions....

One thing I do like about the series compared to the book is their portrayal of Margery Tyrell. She was almost a side character in the book and there wasn't enough elaboration on her to really tell you whether she was involved in anything. I suppose that's what Martin was aiming for -- the audience suspected Margery just as Cersei but didn't really know whether she was a mastermind or not.

In the series, they spell it out pretty flatly that she's cunning and plotting. And while that's brilliantly portrayed and ...

Iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg

MasterSFV: LeafyGreens: If you are getting butthurt by spoilers, read a damn book.

The books have been out for 10+ years, they don't match the series, and the first three are great reading, so you're not losing anything by not reading them.

Also, Robb Stark and his mom are killed when he goes to wed whoosafudge at the river crossing, long before they reach King's Landing. But then his mom turns into a zombie.

Furthermore, Tywin Lannister gets shot on the shiatter by Tyrion with a crossbow, after which Tyrion kills Shay. This is also where the books derail into long passages of GRRM trying to figure out what to do next.


Not sure what books you read but Rob Stark wins the Battle of the Trident using wildfire, his mother joins the Nights Watch as a nun, Tywin Lannister loses a duel with the Mountain, Shay gets with Roz in a lesbian relationship and Tyrion gets to ride a dragon.

The imp may ride the dragon, though I think jon will be the one to marry her.

Confabulat: I never thought of that rat burrowing thing. I don't think it's in the books either. Patrick Bateman would have been proud of that one.

I think I read of something similar in a novel based vaguely on the universe of "Magic: The Gathering" back in the 90s.

dragonchild: My inner literary critic OTOH understands he wanted the seasons to last "years" (with only "it's magic" as an explanation) for one simple reason: he intends to use the long winter as a future plot point, and that's fine.

When he started, Martin was much more concerned about tone than plot. (He may still be.) The idea of "winters lasting years" has a nice stark* tone to it. Everything in the beginning of book one about the north is all doom and gloom. The Stark name. The Stark words. The other names (Winterfell, Night's Watch, Castle Black, etc.). In the first chapter, "Bran," it's summer and there's snow on the ground. The whole first chapter is no plot and all tone. Plot doesn't even start to happen until the second chapter, "Catelyn." (The prologue was written much later.)

He managed to build that tonal foundation laid out at the beginning into a massive plot, which may well include winter as a major plot point, but he cares about tone first. I'd argue (another time) character is second, and plot third.

This explains why he's slowing down, now he really has to tie all the plot he initially pulled out of his ass together in a way that still maintains the integrity of the series.


/see what I did there?

if_i_really_have_to: Ashtrey: Moving soon so won't have cable or net (other than cell phone) for a week. Can't wait to find out what Joffrey did. Haven't seen any of season 2 but read all the books years back so not afraid of spoilers.

For you and the other guy who wanted to know.

Joffrey is having Sansa stripped and beaten in front of the court, in a fit of pique about Rob Starck's success in a recent battle. Tyrion interrupts this and embarrasses Joffrey in front of the court by stating how dishonourable it is to treat his future wife that way, has her covered, and helps her up.

Tyrion's guard guy stated a belief that Joffrey was being a prat because of blue balls. Imp rents a couple of whores for him (the two whores we've come to know - the smart redhead from the North and the real dim bulb) as a birthday present.

Joffrey, with all the signs of some scared and impotent virgin, first has the redhead spank the other, then beat her with a studded belt, and then with a very large wooden sceptre with a stag's head with pointy horns. He says he's going to have them taken to Tyrion to show him 'what she's done'.

The impression one gets (and I was quite relieved when I first heard the whore struck with the sceptre) is he possibly made the one whore rape the other with the pointy sceptre.

Huh, in the books Tyrion idly wonders if Joffrey is old enough to take to Chataya's in order to win the boy's favor.

And here I thought Joffrey was hateful enough in the books. Think of the kittens.

elchip: Confabulat: I never thought of that rat burrowing thing. I don't think it's in the books either. Patrick Bateman would have been proud of that one.

I think I read of something similar in a novel based vaguely on the universe of "Magic: The Gathering" back in the 90s.

I'm ashamed to say I know this but it's not just found in fantasy literature Link

legion_of_doo: The imp may ride the dragon, though I think jon will be the one to marry her.

Okay, okay.

Spoilers and speculation

Have the whiners gone?

I don't think Danaerys is going to ever claim the throne. She is the mother of dragons, but we have 3 others with Targaryen blood (arguably) who will be the riders. I'm guessing Dany dies at some point, and the other three will ride the dragons and unite Westeros (or fight amongst themselves in a final battle).

We all know the theories on Jon's parentage.

Tyrion is looking the same way, since the last book, and GRRM hinted at it as early as Tyrion's first conversation with Jon at the feast in Winterfell at the beginning of Book 1. (This also absolves Tyrion of the unforgivable crime of patricide, since Tywin isn't actually his father.)

And as of the end of Book 5, we have a new Targaryen running amok in Westeros, who seems to be the real deal.

That's three, and we have three dragons. And, as many have pointed out, Dany isn't really fit to rule. She is fit to be the mother of dragons, but not the dragon herself...

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

So we have to wait two more season to see Sansa's tits? fark!

dragonchild: In order for the seasons to last that long, the orbit itself must expand (bear in mind only Earth's orbit lasts one Earth year). . . so if you're using the orbital defintion of "year", you get the same issue. There is no reason for this world to think of 365 days as anything other than arbitrary, like, say, 113 days might be to us. That said, I honestly doubt GRRM put that much thought into this thing, which is kind of my point. I mainly brought it up as a snarky "LOL GRRM doesn't know what a year is" comment because I'm an astronomy geek. My inner literary critic OTOH understands he wanted the seasons to last "years" (with only "it's magic" as an explanation) for one simple reason: he intends to use the long winter as a future plot point, and that's fine.


To be fair... It IS a land with magic in it. Magic isn't a sufficient explanation in our world, because magic isn't real here. But in a world where magic is real that is actually a sufficient explanation. They don't have to have a funky orbit, they could simply have a magical explanation. Much of magic already defies the laws of thermodynamics...

The only real problem would be Bran. Going to be hard on Hodor, for sure.

Also,

Spoilers....
...
..
.
Jon is 'in' Ghost. See Bran's first dream, Mel's vision in DWD, DWD's prologue, and probably the same thing happening w/ Robb at the Red Wedding.
.
..
...
END

ZeroCorpse: Or that Gillian Anderson wasn't as tall as the character she played in X-Files?!?

What? They never hid her being short - they even make jokes about her not being able to reach the gas pedal in one episode.

I just finished Season 1, which I bought from iTunes. I am in desperate need of a reliable source for Season 2. EIP. Can anyone help me?

/hopelessly addicted

Detinwolf: Cythraul: I don't want to punch Joffery.

I want to slowly boil him alive in a vat of oil starting at his toes and eventually reaching his eyeballs. But before that, I want to place him in a giant fire ant mound for a few hours after starving him close to death for weeks. And before that, I'd like to use 'the pear' on him repeatedly until his anus resembled ground beef.

Yeah, I don't like him very much.

Fictional character dude. Please seek a psychiatrist.

auralpleasure: if the characters you didnt care about were in feast then reading dance should be much more to your liking.

I haven't read Dance but the reviews for it are weaker than for the other books, often citing a plodding story and way too much descriptive prose. Concerns me a bit...

I totally enjoyed Dance. I don't know what anyone's talking about with "problems" with four, five, and six. The entire series *raced* along for me. I loved every line, for fark's sake. Of course, I love long books, books I can really sink my teeth into. Still, I did not find the descriptions overlong, they were just right.

For OVERLY LONG exposition/descriptions/history lessons, try and slog your way through Les Miserables. What a farking chore that was!

The GoT series is an absolute riveting pleasure from the first word to the last, IMHO, and I'm loving the fact that there's some things different in the HBO version - it keeps me on my toes.

Subdue their bellies: The burrowing rat interrogation was nicked from one of the Sword of Truth books. No idea where Goodkind nicked it from.

The first thing I thought when I saw that was 1984 and Winston being threatened with the rat in the face mask.

PurpleAlienGiraffe: I just finished Season 1, which I bought from iTunes. I am in desperate need of a reliable source for Season 2. EIP. Can anyone help me?

/hopelessly addicted

HBO.

:)

mongbiohazard: dragonchild: In order for the seasons to last that long, the orbit itself must expand (bear in mind only Earth's orbit lasts one Earth year). . . so if you're using the orbital defintion of "year", you get the same issue. There is no reason for this world to think of 365 days as anything other than arbitrary, like, say, 113 days might be to us. That said, I honestly doubt GRRM put that much thought into this thing, which is kind of my point. I mainly brought it up as a snarky "LOL GRRM doesn't know what a year is" comment because I'm an astronomy geek. My inner literary critic OTOH understands he wanted the seasons to last "years" (with only "it's magic" as an explanation) for one simple reason: he intends to use the long winter as a future plot point, and that's fine.


To be fair... It IS a land with magic in it. Magic isn't a sufficient explanation in our world, because magic isn't real here. But in a world where magic is real that is actually a sufficient explanation. They don't have to have a funky orbit, they could simply have a magical explanation. Much of magic already defies the laws of thermodynamics...

It could very well be magic, but I always interpreted their seasons being more or less like Earth's ice ages, only not nearly as long and maybe not as severe.

She comes in colors everywhere: legion_of_doo: The imp may ride the dragon, though I think jon will be the one to marry her.

Okay, okay.

Spoilers and speculation

Have the whiners gone?

I don't think Danaerys is going to ever claim the throne. She is the mother of dragons, but we have 3 others with Targaryen blood (arguably) who will be the riders. I'm guessing Dany dies at some point, and the other three will ride the dragons and unite Westeros (or fight amongst themselves in a final battle).

We all know the theories on Jon's parentage.

Tyrion is looking the same way, since the last book, and GRRM hinted at it as early as Tyrion's first conversation with Jon at the feast in Winterfell at the beginning of Book 1. (This also absolves Tyrion of the unforgivable crime of patricide, since Tywin isn't actually his father.)

And as of the end of Book 5, we have a new Targaryen running amok in Westeros, who seems to be the real deal.

That's three, and we have three dragons. And, as many have pointed out, Dany isn't really fit to rule. She is fit to be the mother of dragons, but not the dragon herself...

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

Jon definitely could be Targaryen. But Tyrion is a Lannister, no ifs, ands, or buts.

narcoleptic: Jon is 'in' Ghost. See Bran's first dream, Mel's vision in DWD, DWD's prologue, and probably the same thing happening w/ Robb at the Red Wedding.

They killed Robb's doggie too, cut its head off, and sewed it on Robb's headless body.

/yeah, Robb's pretty dead.
//unless we're going to get a dog-headed zombie Robb. which would be AWESOME!

Jon isn't Ned's bastard, given how stupid ned was. So it won't be surprising at the time of that reveal. It might shock me if jon were a true son of cersei and robert, but just about anything else is in play.

Tyrion could conceivably be a bastard. I think it is a spanish concept, but you know your grandchildren, born of your daughter have your blood. Such cannot easily be said of the children of your son.

I am hoping dany and jon don't make it, but they seem to have magic plot powers, for the most part. (when we see jon in the next book, we will know for sure)

narcoleptic: The only real problem would be Bran. Going to be hard on Hodor, for sure.

Also,

Spoilers....
...
..
.
Jon is 'in' Ghost. See Bran's first dream, Mel's vision in DWD, DWD's prologue, and probably the same thing happening w/ Robb at the Red Wedding.


Robin Hobb did it.

Tax Boy: narcoleptic: Jon is 'in' Ghost. See Bran's first dream, Mel's vision in DWD, DWD's prologue, and probably the same thing happening w/ Robb at the Red Wedding.

They killed Robb's doggie too, cut its head off, and sewed it on Robb's headless body.

/yeah, Robb's pretty dead.
//unless we're going to get a dog-headed zombie Robb. which would be AWESOME!

soooooo a Robb Zombie?

elchip: [i.imgur.com image 540x720]

She'll be hot in 3 years.

/Don't look at me like that, I'm only 24 so it's not as bad for me to do it as it is for you.
//Fine. I'll have a seat

Digitalstrange: you are a puppet: Confabulat: The Thoroughbred of Sin: Since this is a thread about the SHOW and not the books, anyone posting about events past Episode 4 of the second season is seriously out of bounds. Have some respect for others who are either enjoying the show or perhaps a book or two behind you. Seriously

Good luck with that. These idiots post everything about the books and then complain that it's your fault you haven't spent the last 15 years reading 5000 pages.

They'll get their burrowing rats in the end, farkers. Do you really feel cool because you posted stuff that's not on the show yet? Does it make you feel smart? Does it make your penis feel bigger than its usual 4 inches?

lol. I have noticed it's a real point of pride for people to be able to spoil this series.

Sorry to break it to you but most of us don't give a damn about you or whether the series is spoiled for you. We enter these threads to discuss a book and TV series we love with other people who have read and watched them as well. Sometimes our discussions range past the TV series because there are still plenty of unresolved plot points and Martin doesn't always spell everything out in the books.

(no spoilers)

One of the most interesting of these to me is Renly. I have had a few different people, here and in other discussions say they didn't think Renly was gay in the books, It is true that in the books there was no explicit sex scene like in the show between Loras and Renly but the hints were there about Renly from beginning and in book 2 it was all but spelled out about him and Loras.

I actually hate what they've done with Renly in the show. He was not a coward or afraid of fighting. I feel like the shows writers were poisoned because they believed Ned and Catelyn's opinions of him.

Renly was right when he offered Ned soldiers to take Cersei and her kids in hand and take over ruling. He was right to leave Kings Landing when Ned refused him. His meandering march from Storms End to K ...

Agreed, think they even mention that is part of his motivation, to make him look better to the fence sitters. And yeah, he is gay in the books too, just never a chapter from his perspective to actually show him and Loras doing it, where as on the show they kind of have to put him on screen or things would get way more confusing for people.