edmo: Trust Fund?

People are still falling for that gag?

So the funds are not ivested in interest bearing securities?

DavidVincent: At some point we will not be able to borrow any more money.
The US will default.
It won't called if a default but it will not be able honor its obligations.
The rich will be taxed but we will realize that is the barest of stopgaps.

Cities won't have money because soon 50% of money budgeted for employees will be paid out to retired employees. That just won't sit well as local services decline.



Oh, we'll have money---just how much it will be worth is a damn good question.

roddack: edmo: Trust Fund?

People are still falling for that gag?

So the funds are not ivested in interest bearing securities?

They're just worthless pieces of paper filling file cabinets. Don't you remember what GWB said?

There's only 3 ways Social Security runs dry.

1) 0% employment
2) 0% people paying tax
3) 0% effort to collect the tax

There may not be enough money to give everyone the promised benefit, but it will not "run dry" short of a major political upheaval or catastrophic human disaster.

ununcle: So many blame the baby boomers when they should focus on the systematic corporate greed that has either outsourced or or automated with machines tens of millions of jobs over the last 30 years. The SS modal we had was perfectly fine. They (task masters) wanted more.

/Born in 64

Yeah... damn those new-fangled horseless carriages..! Don't they know those things will put the carriage-makers and blacksmiths out of business..!

Com'on Zombie Apocalypse!

12349876: There may not be enough money to give everyone the promised benefit, but it will not "run dry" short of a major political upheaval or catastrophic human disaster.

An R-money election to POTUS, which would be the latter?

olddinosaur: DavidVincent: At some point we will not be able to borrow any more money.
The US will default.
It won't called if a default but it will not be able honor its obligations.
The rich will be taxed but we will realize that is the barest of stopgaps.

Cities won't have money because soon 50% of money budgeted for employees will be paid out to retired employees. That just won't sit well as local services decline.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x300]

Oh, we'll have money---just how much it will be worth is a damn good question.

shut the fark up boomer. your opinion is worthless. when you were growing up inflation was 10% per year and you experienced incredible stable growth. moderate amounts of inflation are not harmful according to professor of economics at cambridge university in his book "23 things they dont teach you about capitalism"

fark you and go to school before you talk about economics ever again.

ununcle: So many blame the baby boomers when they should focus on the systematic corporate greed that has either outsourced or or automated with machines tens of millions of jobs over the last 30 years. The SS modal we had was perfectly fine. They (task masters) wanted more.

/Born in 64

Who's running those companies?

lazyguineapig33: olddinosaur: DavidVincent:
fark you and go to school before you talk about economics ever again.

eat me.

It's not taxes you want to increase. It's Executive salaries you want to decrease. Millions of dollars that are centered on very few people in large companies could be more fairly divided amongst the other employees thereby keeping them from requiring the Social Security benefits after retirement.

It isn't socialism that is failing. It's greed. Eat cake.

Yeah_Right: Yeah... damn those new-fangled horseless carriages..! Don't they know those things will put the carriage-makers and blacksmiths out of business..!

I'ts not about putting obsolete business out of business. It's about the planned obsolescence of labor which has been the cornerstone of modern capitalism. Which means we can no longer sustain a consumer based economy.

lazyguineapig33: moderate amounts of inflation are not harmful according to professor of economics at cambridge university in his book "23 things they dont teach you about capitalism"

That is correct, however, that may be one of the few tools that we have available to deal with this debt mess. God knows that raising taxes and cutting spending ain't happening anytime soon.

olddinosaur: ghare: olddinosaur: Omnivorous: When you cut the payroll deduction by 33% for several years in a row, the lifespan of the trust fund goes down.

Dumbest decision of the Obama administration.

THIS.

Because it was cutting taxes for poor and middle class, not rich folks, right?

Actually, SS is a regressive tax: there is a top-end cutoff, and it is not very high. Warren Buffet pays a tiny fraction of what I pay, yet he receives a much larger benefit.

He is also free to work for $1 a year aqnd draw full belefits, where I face severe penalties if I make over $14 K annually.

That is why I, like most Libertarians, favor the Flat Tax, sometimes called the Fair Tax: You get so much---you pay so much; no exceptions, no excuses.

You REALLY want to see tax breaks for the rich, just lok at that $850 Billion Comrade Obamavich handed out to the Wall Street fat cats, who were all rich anyway.

BTW, how's all this hopey--changey stuff workin out fer ya?

1/10

Libertarians aren't that stupid.
Flat tax != Fair tax.

thisistoomuchwhargarrbl.jpg

Hard to tell the difference here between a troll and someone who really doesn't have the slightest clue about how SS works. So I'll just use this quote:

August 28, 1996

Mr. Kerrey says that without reform, entitlements will claim 100 percent of the Treasury in 2012.

Some people never learn.

rohar: Who's running those companies?

Well that's the problem right? No one, legally.

olddinosaur:
BTW, how's all this hopey--changey stuff workin out fer ya?

huh. well let's see.

the good
1. after being laid off in 2007 and a long search i got a sweet job with a new company that looks like it will be stable for a while
2. obama made it so i only had to pay $200 instead of $450/month to keep my health insurance during that time. not great but still a help
3. my 401k got tanked but now it's actually back to where it was and then some
4. personal investment portfolio more than doubled in last 3 years. that's more thanks to steve jobs than obama technically. but then, are most of the things that actually affect my daily life aren't under the president's control either so any question like yours must be taken with a grain of salt.
5. bin laden got killed. not that this was particularly a concern of mine but hey
6. troops mostly out of iraq and stuff

the bad
1. well, cost of living still ridiculously high where i live so i'd like to make more money. who wouldn't
2. still lots of troops in afganistan/pakistan
3. didn't ram through a REAL health care reform bill, forget the mandate nonsense and go to single payer
4. started letting feds get back into harassing states that have medical pot laws

so overall, i'd have to say i'm not thrilled but i'm not unhappy as far as the hope and change goes. i wasn't really expecting much anyway, campaign slogans are for morons and trolls

and since the alternatives are a bunch of religious whackos that have pretty much made it their stated position that they want to screw me over even worse than the dems, i'll live with it.

ununcle: It's about the planned obsolescence of labor which has been the cornerstone of modern capitalism.

it is really not that either. It is more about changing demographics than anything. Sooner or later policy is going to have to attempt to keep up. Or not.....

lazyguineapig33: why dont we just kill all the boomers and compost their bodies to be sold as fertilizer?

they are the most entitled generation in the history of the country. they grew up during a time when minimum wage was $11 and hour. college was heavily subsidized and you could get a good job after graduating. the economy was the most prosperous during the 50s 60s and 70s than it has ever been throughout the the nations history. They enjoyed massive government protections in the post new deal era. they enjoyed a stable economy free of financial crisis. they enjoyed a time when jobs were not being shipped to china and india and mexico. compared to the experience of any other american, the boomers have had the easiest lives. they call us the snowflake generation when the reality is that they are the true snowflakes. they took the wonderous world that was inherited from the greatest generation and left the millenials a smoldering ruin of ashes.

fark all of you selfish pieces of shiat.
and yes. i work 65+ hours a week.

I've been working 48 years. I started at 45 cents an hour in 1964. I didnt see $5 an hour until 1973. And $10 an hour until 1986.

Where do you get the $11 an hour all my life?

Since nobody has a clue, I thought I might add some reality to the thread:

1. Dropping the employee SS contribution rate from 6.2 to 4.2% (and leaving the employer 6.2% contribution alone) is a 21% reduction, not 33%.
2. There has always been a 'trust fund', it was just embedded in the regular budget before.
3. If nothing is done, SS will still pay between 75-85% of promised benefits after burning through the trust fund. Still a pretty good deal.
4. SS also includes Disability Insurance - so it isn't just for retirees. All the people faking disabilities are getting some money ad infinitum.
5. Only the first $110,100 of earnings are taxed by SS, making the maximum SS payment $11,450.40 and that would be for those that are self employed. I paid $4,624.20 in 2011 since I earn more than the cap and am not self employed.
6. Uncapping or means testing SS could easily fix the problems. For example, my father receives over $30k a year from SS (he is 79). He is currently working two days a week and bringing in ~$320k (military contractors are grossly overpaid!), but he still gets the SS money since there is no means testing. Oh, and a $160k private pension and a $80k military pension. So yeah, almost $600k while working 16 hours a week in retirement.
7. It isn't a Ponzi scheme - it is a social contract in which the workers provide minimal funding for the retired and disabled. The only people that actually never paid into it were born during/after the Civil War.
8. The 'Trust fund' is invested in US bonds/securities which is both good and bad. Bad, because the Feds don't pay much interest, but good because you could imagine the potential for corruption if SS money was invested in the open market. It is a safe place to put money. Insurance companies park billions in low return investments for the intrinsic security of the holding.

alfuso: lazyguineapig33: why dont we just kill all the boomers and compost their bodies to be sold as fertilizer?

they are the most entitled generation in the history of the country. they grew up during a time when minimum wage was $11 and hour. college was heavily subsidized and you could get a good job after graduating. the economy was the most prosperous during the 50s 60s and 70s than it has ever been throughout the the nations history. They enjoyed massive government protections in the post new deal era. they enjoyed a stable economy free of financial crisis. they enjoyed a time when jobs were not being shipped to china and india and mexico. compared to the experience of any other american, the boomers have had the easiest lives. they call us the snowflake generation when the reality is that they are the true snowflakes. they took the wonderous world that was inherited from the greatest generation and left the millenials a smoldering ruin of ashes.

fark all of you selfish pieces of shiat.
and yes. i work 65+ hours a week.

I've been working 48 years. I started at 45 cents an hour in 1964. I didnt see $5 an hour until 1973. And $10 an hour until 1986.

Where do you get the $11 an hour all my life?

Inflation adjusted minimum wage, I'm guessing

HeadLever: it is really not that either. It is more about changing demographics than anything. Sooner or later policy is going to have to attempt to keep up. Or not.....

What has changed in our demographics to cause such a drastic altercation in our standard of living?

AntiNerd: thisistoomuchwhargarrbl.jpg

Hard to tell the difference here between a troll and someone who really doesn't have the slightest clue about how SS works. So I'll just use this quote:

August 28, 1996

Mr. Kerrey says that without reform, entitlements will claim 100 percent of the Treasury in 2012.

Some people never learn.

Not far off. SS plus Medicare/Medicaid plus Income Security Programs (ISPs) totals about $1.955 Trillion. Our of our total tax revenue is $2.25 Trillion. Depending upon you define entitlements, you may be able to push it another 300 Billion.

ununcle: What has changed in our demographics to cause such a drastic altercation in our standard of living?

Standard of living has increased some, but the bigger issue is that folks are living longer and the overall age of the population is getting older. This is reflected in the diminishing worker vs. retiree ratio that has plagued SS for quite some time.

Here's an idea: Old people - kill yourselves now.

madgonad: Since nobody has a clue, I thought I might add some reality to the thread:

You're much too well-informed. GTFO.

Means testing Social Security won't save that much money because wealthy seniors comprise a pretty small chunk of the population. And as a political matter, means testing then turns SS into another run of the mill welfare program that's easily assailable and subject to budget cuts (and usually at the worst times).

madgonad: The 'Trust fund' is invested in US bonds/securities which is both good and bad. Bad, because the Feds don't pay much interest, but good because you could imagine the potential for corruption if SS money was invested in the open market. It is a safe place to put money. Insurance companies park billions in low return investments for the intrinsic security of the holding.

One of the biggest issues that I see regarding the sacred 'lock box' is that when you start redeeming those bonds, you are basically contributing to the public debt (basically swapping intragovernmental debt for public debt). The treasuries that currently make up these IOUs is a government liability. Having them parked in stocks or other company bonds would at lease make that someone else's liability. Though you are defiantly correct that this privatization opens up an whole 'nother can of worms that is not likely worth the hassle.

HeadLever: ununcle: What has changed in our demographics to cause such a drastic altercation in our standard of living?

Standard of living has increased some, but the bigger issue is that folks are living longer and the overall age of the population is getting older. This is reflected in the diminishing worker vs. retiree ratio that has plagued SS for quite some time.

I agree. But, there is a diminishing workforce due to the cooperate Outsourcing/automation of jobs coinciding with birth control in which the end result will be a feudal society.

AeAe: Here's an idea: Old people - kill yourselves now.

You know you'll be old some day right? Why wait?

Ed Schultz just said the other day, that the trust fund had plenty of money and this is a republican scam to scare people. and I believe him. There is plenty of money. Just have to tax the unfairly rich. and I'm including Oprah in that. SHe doesn't deserve any more than I have.

ununcle: But, there is a diminishing workforce due to the cooperate Outsourcing/automation of jobs coinciding with birth control in which the end result will be a feudal society.

In someways, yes. There is a diminishing workforce, however, most folks still work and are making ends meet. Yes, outsourcing and automation presents issues that any workforce needs to be aware of. However, I don't think that many can say where the end result really will be.

alfuso: lazyguineapig33: why dont we just kill all the boomers and compost their bodies to be sold as fertilizer?

they are the most entitled generation in the history of the country. they grew up during a time when minimum wage was $11 and hour. college was heavily subsidized and you could get a good job after graduating. the economy was the most prosperous during the 50s 60s and 70s than it has ever been throughout the the nations history. They enjoyed massive government protections in the post new deal era. they enjoyed a stable economy free of financial crisis. they enjoyed a time when jobs were not being shipped to china and india and mexico. compared to the experience of any other american, the boomers have had the easiest lives. they call us the snowflake generation when the reality is that they are the true snowflakes. they took the wonderous world that was inherited from the greatest generation and left the millenials a smoldering ruin of ashes.

fark all of you selfish pieces of shiat.
and yes. i work 65+ hours a week.

I've been working 48 years. I started at 45 cents an hour in 1964. I didnt see $5 an hour until 1973. And $10 an hour until 1986.

Where do you get the $11 an hour all my life?

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html

i posted that earlier in the thread. farking boomers cant even read. how can we expect them to understand the difference between real and nominal value of money?

Here is another comparison.

This is mimicking SS with the same degree of risk. That means investing in US Bonds/Securities which have had an average return of 3.66% since 1928.
Current maximum employee contribution=$385.33/mo which will be invested in US bonds continuously for a 40 year employment period. After those 40 years go by the 'retiree' will have about $414k to disburse. With the current maximum benefit at $30k (remember, we have been investing the maximum) that $414k will be gone in 20 years - and that doesn't even factor inflation. Social Security is guaranteed for life. Sure, if you die early your 'estate' is screwed, but you are dead so why do you care. If you are worried about a safety net, Social Security is a great deal.

Propain_az: Ed Schultz just said the other day, that the trust fund had plenty of money

Money? No.

IOUs? Oooooh yeaaaaah. Keep drinking.

What we really need around here is a "Duh" tag

These threads are always amusing because they so clearly illustrate that the handful of Gen-Y'ers spewing the most hatred and making the most noise are so farking stupid they can't even do simple math. Newsflash, morons: There are almost ZERO "baby boomers" sucking on the SS/Medicare teat. They are 48 to 66 years old at the moment. 99% of them are still in the workforce PAYING INTO the system (and paying a fark of a lot more per capita than YOU little unemployed assholes do right now), and the last of them will will still be doing so twenty years from now. (more likely to be 25 years, since the retirement age will definitely be 70 by then)

The chain smoking, red meat eating, morbidly obese, 67-100 year-old healthcare nightmares currently clogging up and threatening to bankrupt the system are the "greatest generation" you're all so fond of. They are also the ones who ran the legislature up until very recently (49% of the senate is still currently 65 or older) and refused to do anything about the predicted shortfalls that were obvious 20 years ago. Focus your impotent rage on the people who REALLY turned your future into a shiat sandwich. It ain't the boomers, snowflakes.

HeadLever: madgonad: The 'Trust fund' is invested in US bonds/securities which is both good and bad. Bad, because the Feds don't pay much interest, but good because you could imagine the potential for corruption if SS money was invested in the open market. It is a safe place to put money. Insurance companies park billions in low return investments for the intrinsic security of the holding.

One of the biggest issues that I see regarding the sacred 'lock box' is that when you start redeeming those bonds, you are basically contributing to the public debt (basically swapping intragovernmental debt for public debt). The treasuries that currently make up these IOUs is a government liability. Having them parked in stocks or other company bonds would at lease make that someone else's liability. Though you are defiantly correct that this privatization opens up an whole 'nother can of worms that is not likely worth the hassle.

There is little difference financially between public vs government held debt. Leaning more on the open market will probably have some upward pressure on yields, but it is the nature of the beast. It wasn't meant to be a permanent holding anyway.

Investing government money in the open market is a bad idea for a million reasons. We already see the impact of Sovereign Wealth funds on the marketplace. You want something as massive as Trust fund (Trillions!) dropped onto Wall Street? Fark no!
Aaaaaaaand, It's gone.

madgonad: It wasn't meant to be a permanent holding anyway.

True, but it has been there long enough that it has become a political issue. See Al Gore and his dumb comments.

The current pressing problem for Social Security in the short term is the bad economy. Higher than anticipated unemployment has reduced Social Security taxes and higher than anticipated inflation has increased benefits. The fact that so much wage growth particularly over the last decade has gone to workers already earning above the cap on Social Security taxes also doesn't help. The trust funds were in worse shape back in the early 1990's but then the economy took off, due in large part to internet and real estate bubbles, and the economic boom along with low inflation greatly improved Social Security until the current lousy economy. The best way to improve Social Security in the short term would be to get people back to work.

ununcle: As long as we can own a gun and our fingers still work,,,, this won't matter.

Yea! We can just shoot those, um ... lack of funds.

madgonad: Investing government money in the open market is a bad idea for a million reasons.

Defiantly. However, you also are faced with buying IOUs with these assets and then having them transfered to the general fund.

Aaaaand, its gone!

HeadLever: ununcle: But, there is a diminishing workforce due to the cooperate Outsourcing/automation of jobs coinciding with birth control in which the end result will be a feudal society.

In someways, yes. There is a diminishing workforce, however, most folks still work and are making ends meet. Yes, outsourcing and automation presents issues that any workforce needs to be aware of. However, I don't think that many can say where the end result really will be.

I think I can comfortably say my demise will come in an emergency room. There's a majority of people in the US that don't work. 1 in 5 are on social security. That don't even include the welfare ranks and children to young to work. Out of roughly 300 million how many is that? It's a mystery because they set the unemployment rate under 10 percent. How the fark can a country survive when close to less then half are throwing into the pot? We hit an iceberg and there's only so many boats.

Finger51: ununcle: As long as we can own a gun and our fingers still work,,,, this won't matter.

Yea! We can just shoot those, um ... lack of funds.

No. Let me be clear right now. We shoot people like you and eat you.

Coelacanth: Thank you George Bush for throwing our throwing our surplus down the toilet.

This. The next tax hike that will be required to re-float the Social Security boat should be called the "George W. Bush Social Security Solvency Act of 20XX."

The Election of 2000: We're gonna be paying for that little tinker job for 50 years.

The Solution is 0 taxes and no Government, but lots and lots of guns

/The green is old people
//ick