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(ABC)   George Zimmerman released from jail on $150,000 bail   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 613
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3307 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2012 at 1:35 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-23 01:31:21 PM

liam76: Bontesla: The assumption is for murder. The defense has to pove self-defense

Not familiar with innocent until proven guilty, are you?


Not familiar with an affirmative defense, are you?
 
2012-04-23 01:31:42 PM

liam76: thus far unknown eyewitness (as far as every thread I have seen on this)?


For those who can't google " 'anderson cooper' zimmerman eyewitness" lmgtfy

No claims as to which way this makes the case lean, or the reliability of this person. Just putting it out here.
 
2012-04-23 01:32:17 PM

algrant33: liam76: Bontesla: The assumption is for murder. The defense has to pove self-defense

Not familiar with innocent until proven guilty, are you?

That doesn't apply when you as the defendant ADMIT you killed the guy, but are trying to argue a mitigating circumstance.


Thanks. . .

This. Exactly this.
 
2012-04-23 01:33:21 PM
gimmegimme
Your confusion and misunderstanding is your own problem. People have the right to park on a public street. People have the right to walk around on public property. I agree that you have the right to interrogate strangers, but please realize that other folks might mistake your paranoia for other emotions.

Not confusion or misunderstanding. Concern and curiosity perhaps.

I do hope you come to understand the difference between a conversation and an interrogation. If you ever want to start dating there is an important distinction.

Paranoia? Hardly.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were a troll. Haven't been around these parts much for the last year or so, don't recognize all the new faces. Carry on.
 
2012-04-23 01:33:25 PM

Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.


What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?
 
2012-04-23 01:33:26 PM

Bontesla: They did hear evidence of a struggle.


From the same link as above.

Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground

Keep up the lies.
 
2012-04-23 01:33:58 PM

PoochUMD: Bontesla: PoochUMD: karmaceutical: nekom: karmaceutical: I think you could convince a jury that the sky is yellow and the sun is blue. I am not talking about what a jury can be convinced of or not... I am talking about what is painfully evident on that tape.

It does help to paint a picture, but there are still no eye witnesses, and as far as I'm aware, no evidence which disproves Zimmerman's side of the story, which again may be an outright lie but what else can they go by? The burden of proof for a criminal trial is simply too high, I will be shocked if they actually convict.

All the tape shows is one person screaming for help for 15 seconds before a single shot is fired. We have a body. We have a gun. We have a shooter. The shooter claims he was shooting in self defense. I think the 911 tape disputes that theory. The jury will have to make its own decision based on that evidence. You can argue that no one can prove that the child-like screaming on the tape was Zimmerman or Martin. The only thing that matters is what the jury believes.

The eye witness says that it was Zimmerman screaming for help.

Right. In the dark. With the two faces inches from each other. That seems legitimate.

More legitimate than twisting events around to make them fit what you think happened.


How would you know what I think? I have yet to offer it.

Please, kindly show where I twisted around clear facts to support my obvious bias.
 
2012-04-23 01:37:02 PM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: For those who can't google " 'anderson cooper' zimmerman eyewitness" lmgtfy

No claims as to which way this makes the case lean, or the reliability of this person. Just putting it out here.



That's not John, the one true eyewitness. That's a guy that came forward weeks later saying that he saw the fight but from a distance and couldn't make out who was who.
 
2012-04-23 01:37:31 PM
Zimmerman is going to prison.

neighborhood watch.

watch and report

not follow and confront

all 911 call operators should be empowered police officers. The commands they give on the phone should be considered lawful orders. He had absolutely no reason to follow this young man. He is not a law enforcement officer and has no business trespassing to follow this kid.

you call the cops and you stay on your own lawn.

the cops woudl have harrassed him more than enough.

Enjoy prison georgie
 
2012-04-23 01:38:52 PM

Bontesla: Where did I say Mora and Cutcher said Martin was screamning? I didn't...


What "two other witnesses" were you talking about below?


Bontesla: liam76: Satanic_Hamster: liam76: He also talked tt the poplice (on the 911 call referenced, and when they were interviewsing witnesses afterwards), but thanks for makling up lies to back up your BS. You have moved from ignorance to outright dishonesty, doesn't suprise me. Way to top off your dishonesty with your strawman of "deserved to be shot".

He claimed in the interview he called 911 and said this. That's it.

You have proof "that's it"?

Because the police say they have an eyewitness that backed up that it was zimmerman calling for help.

I can claim I phoned Jesus about something, that doesn't make it true.

Given your track record on the truth you claiming it makes it harder to believe than the existence of a 2000yr old lich.

And two witnesses to contradict your one.

 
2012-04-23 01:39:31 PM

Bontesla:
Zimmerman has the burden of proof.


Is this a recent change to our legal system?
 
2012-04-23 01:39:46 PM

9beers: That's not John, the one true eyewitness. That's a guy that came forward weeks later saying that he saw the fight but from a distance and couldn't make out who was who.


Yes, I know. I did not say it was.

/but your one true eyewitness did not witness the whole thing
 
2012-04-23 01:40:21 PM

PoochUMD: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.

What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?


Well, for starters... if Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he plugged him... it makes it hard to argue that Martin had to be shot because he was bashing Zimmerman's head into a sidewalk. If Zimmerman was on top of him... he was in control. He could have chosen to walk away.
 
2012-04-23 01:41:49 PM

Oblio13: Bontesla:
Zimmerman has the burden of proof.

Is this a recent change to our legal system?


If the state can make a prima facie case for Murder Two, then Zimmerman's ass relies on having an airtight case for a legally-allowable justifiable homicide. If he has it, the case can be dismissed before closing arguments. Otherwise the facts get decided by a jury.
 
2012-04-23 01:42:27 PM

liam76: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: And two witnesses to contradict your one

I will repeat what I said before.

Too bad they weren't eyewitnesses like john and were guessing who yelled for help without ever hearing the voice of Martin or Zimmerman.

Their testimony on who yelled is meaningless as they didn't know what Martin or Zimmerman sounded like.

If you think overhearing an alleged crime is irrelevant then our justice system would like a word with you.

You're looking for the smoking gun: a definitive witness to witness everything in a clear and unquestionable fashion. Given what we know - this doesn't exist.

They heard nothing that contradicts zimmerman's testimony. Stop lying.

You are ignoring the one witness who saw the scuffle because ti doesn't fit what you want to have happened.


I haven't dismissed John's statement. I only said there were other statements inconsistent with both John's and Zimmerman's. I never said John's statement was wrong or that the others' were more right. I only argued that there wasn't consensus.

You, on the other hand, have called me a liar using what criteria? The anonymous source doesn't exist? They gave a statement to the police. They gave an interview to AC.

Then you claim Mora and Hutcher didn't hear an altercation (which is verifably false) and then said they have insufficient knowledge (yet they were there and you were not).

So, please don't be insulted if I don't take your insult to heart. You've established your bias and are no longer credible.
 
2012-04-23 01:42:56 PM

friendinpa: gimmegimme
Your confusion and misunderstanding is your own problem. People have the right to park on a public street. People have the right to walk around on public property. I agree that you have the right to interrogate strangers, but please realize that other folks might mistake your paranoia for other emotions.

Not confusion or misunderstanding. Concern and curiosity perhaps.

I do hope you come to understand the difference between a conversation and an interrogation. If you ever want to start dating there is an important distinction.

Paranoia? Hardly.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were a troll. Haven't been around these parts much for the last year or so, don't recognize all the new faces. Carry on.


You said: "Really? I live on a dead end street in a pretty nice neighborhood. I occasionally engage people who I don't know. Just a polite conversation can clear up quite a lot of confusion and misunderstanding."

I dunno...if you're "concerned" about someone walking on the street near your house, I do think paranoia applies unless you have some reason to believe you are in danger.

As I said, you have the right to ask a bystander what they are up to, but it's an interrogation. If I'm walking on your street, minding my own business, listening to music or just thinking about life, I'll probably think you're an unpleasant person for making the assumption that I am there to kidnap your children or otherwise up to no good. You may call it a conversation, but it's an interrogation; you are asking me to justify my presence in a place I have the perfect right to occupy. After all, if I give the wrong answer when you question me, you'll undoubtedly call the authorities, right?

//Really? You think I'm a troll because I assert my right to walk a public street without justification?
 
2012-04-23 01:45:17 PM
Obviously Zimmerman weighs as much as a duck, therefore is made of wood.
 
2012-04-23 01:45:41 PM

liam76: Bontesla: They were witnesses and will be treated as such by both sides. What they describe is inconsistent with Zimmerman's account.

Nothing any of the witnesses has said they saw or heard is inconsistent with Zimmerman's account.


So, Zimmerman admits to pinning Martin down? John also admits to this? (See Cutcher's statement).

And the Anonymous witness - claiming the altercation took place on grass? This is consistent with Zimmerman's account?

Or the boy's staement when he said it was too dark to even make out the color of clothing? John disagrees.
 
2012-04-23 01:47:06 PM

Bontesla: Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.



Cutcher never claims that Zimmerman said that, stop farking lying. The only thing Zimmerman said to her was "call the police". She does say that she saw him straddling the body but since the body was face down and Martin was shot in the chest, that doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

She also claims that she knows it was Martin screaming for help because the screams stopped after the gunshot. She claims it wasn't self defense because she saw no punching or hitting even though she admits to not seeing anything until after the shooting. Smart girl, don't you agree?
 
2012-04-23 01:47:13 PM

gimmegimme:
I dunno...if you're "concerned" about someone walking on the street near your house, I do think paranoia applies unless you have some reason to believe you are in danger.
?


Is a number of break-ins in your neighborhood a good enough reason to be wary of people you don't recognize?
 
2012-04-23 01:49:02 PM

liam76: Bontesla: So, aside from being unreasonable and wildly speculative

From the guy who thinks the two women who didn't see the scuffle and have no idea what martin and zimmerman sound like are qualified to testify as to who they heard scream, and from the guy who thinks the actual only eyewitness isn't qualified to say who yelled for help, that is rich.


*woman

Citation for the following:
1. Knowledge as to what I think happened with the Cutcher/Mora testimony.
2. Citation for my argument that Cutcher and Mora were scream experts.
3. My dismissal of John's testimony.

All of these happened in your head.
 
2012-04-23 01:49:13 PM

liam76: Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground

Keep up the lies.



Well considering we know as a matter of fact from one eyewitness close enough to identify the combatants and another that only saw silhouettes, that there was a fight, I'd say this chick isn't nearly as credible as you want her to be.
 
2012-04-23 01:49:59 PM

Bontesla: I haven't dismissed John's statement.


Yes you did. When you bring up the two women who didn;t see the struggle and pretend they trump what john saw you are dismissing his testimony.


Bontesla: Then you claim Mora and Hutcher didn't hear an altercation (which is verifably false) and then said they have insufficient knowledge (yet they were there and you were not).



You are verifiably a liar.

Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground

Bontesla:
You, on the other hand, have called me a liar using what criteria?


See above. You lied. You have changed your stroy on what Maria saw a number of times, and it doesn't agreew ith any cited source.
 
2012-04-23 01:52:09 PM

karmaceutical: PoochUMD: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.

What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?

Well, for starters... if Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he plugged him... it makes it hard to argue that Martin had to be shot because he was bashing Zimmerman's head into a sidewalk. If Zimmerman was on top of him... he was in control. He could have chosen to walk away.


Her story doesn't suggest that Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he shot him. All it says is that after she heard the shot, and went outside she saw Zimmerman standing over him. There are two witnesses that saw the fight and both said Martin was on top, one of those witnesses actually saw when the shot went off.
 
2012-04-23 01:52:46 PM
The lack of anything smart or funny posted in this thread and the fact no one really seems to care Zimmerman was released on bail suggest to me this story is played out. Can we move along now and let this trial proceed naturally without media fanfare getting in the way?

/Yeah, I didn't think so, but it was worth a shot.
 
2012-04-23 01:54:38 PM

liam76: Bontesla: See Anderson Cooper interview. I already explained that I cannot cite right now... using phone... at work. Sorry

And you have already demonstrated your dishonesty, so you don't get the benefit of the doubt.


Bontesla: This witness did not say Zimmerman was being beaten. Where did you get that from

Been linked a couple times. By people other than me too.

A witness to the confrontation just following the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and punching him, while Zimmerman was yelling for help. This witness, who identified himself as "John", stated that "the guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Witness_accou n ts

Odd that you would miss this but find some other gems fromt he interview that nobody else can confirm.


How I was dishonest? One example? And since I gave you the tools to Google - I'm obviously not hiding anything. instead of investigating, you're calling me a liar. Obviously it's the truth you're after.

Again you're confusing John with the Anonymous account I'm describing. I've already explained this. You're refusing to consider that there are two sources that refuse to step forward and identify.
 
2012-04-23 01:56:19 PM

turtleking: Zimmerman is going to prison.

neighborhood watch.

watch and report

not follow and confront

all 911 call operators should be empowered police officers. The commands they give on the phone should be considered lawful orders. He had absolutely no reason to follow this young man. He is not a law enforcement officer and has no business trespassing to follow this kid.

you call the cops and you stay on your own lawn.

the cops woudl have harrassed him more than enough.

Enjoy prison georgie


Wouldn't have mattered if he weren't NW at all. If Zimmerman's story is true, he walks. Pretty much 99% of the time. 911 operators *aren't* trained to be police officers, and this is actually a *good* thing because at the end of the day they aren't police officers, they are dispatchers. Most orders given by a dispatcher are treated by the person on the other end of the call as lawful orders. "Wait there, we are sending a unit immediately". Nothing saying you have to stay, but it's probably smart. This person knows their shiat. They were both trespassing, if you want to use that language, and that particular fact also doesn't matter in this case.

Mentally place Zimmerman and Martin in a Matrix-like construct. Empty white space. Nothing but those two. We know that Zimmerman shot Martin at close range, so place these two mannequins near one another.

The only *facts* relevant to the case are what events led to that precise moment. They could be on the beach, in a park, in a gated community, or on the farking moon. As long as they were in FL jurisdiction, with the SYG law on the books? Unfortunately the braying crowd is mostly correct... He may have had no business pursuing this kid (a statement I 100% agree with), but he was lawful in doing so.

The interesting question about this case, for me, is this.

If Zimmerman had died that night, and Trayvon had said it was self defense, where would we be today? Cause as far as I can tell, both had just about equal justification for use of force.
 
2012-04-23 01:57:13 PM

liam76: Bontesla: You can either do a little leg work or be called biased for not using your resources to check out a totally verifiable thing

haha, ok.

I will repeat.

From the guy who thinks the two women who didn't see the scuffle and have no idea what martin and zimmerman sound like are qualified to testify as to who they heard scream, and from the guy who thinks the actual only eyewitness isn't qualified to say who yelled for help, that is rich


CITATION NEEDED

:)
 
2012-04-23 01:57:29 PM
By the way, according to police, Cutcher's story changed once this became a media sensation. The chick is an obvious attention whore that does nothing but make a bunch of assumptions based on things she didn't witness.
 
2012-04-23 02:01:29 PM

PoochUMD: Bontesla: PoochUMD: squirrelflavoredyogurt: divx88: brainscab: I want to know if this guy studied the self defense laws before he went out to pick a fight with a gun in his pocket,

Curious if any of you have half a brain.

Court system swayed by lynch mobs and slant media, prosecutors not submitting all evidence to a case (which is illegal), dead or alive bounties (which is illegal). Obnoxious "murder 2" charge, when the only thing really unclear is if Zimmerman provoked Trayvon; which in that case it'd be man slaughter.

Funny that they use a picture of Trayvon at 12 years of age.

[sadhillnews.com image 547x410]

So yes, put down your STOLEN skittles and tea and stop acting shady.

Can't really play the black card either given no charges have been brought on the leader of the BP for issuing a dead or alive bounty.

I find it funny that stalking someone, then gunning them down is your idea of manslaughter. I'd say that when being followed by an older man, Trayvon had a right to attack Zimmerman under Florida's stand your ground laws.

Link of the 911 call from Zimmerman where he admits to following Trayvon, is told not to, then says Trayvon ran. Somehow Trayvon ended up dead by Zimmerman's gun, but we're supposed to believe it's because Zimmerman stood his ground, not Trayvon.

Have you listened to it? You can clearly tell when Zimmerman gets out of his car, starts running and stops once the dispatcher tells him he doesn't have to follow Martin. Somehow Martin ended up dead 20' from that spot 3 minutes later.

This isn't a case of one party chasing the other, it's a case of someone hiding in the vicinity or doubling back to confront the person following them earlier.

So your argument is that hearing the 911 call proves Zimmerman's innocence but the two other witnesses that heard something don't count because they didn't see the altercation.

Got it.

I don't think I said anything about his innocence. I said that the evidence shows that he wasn't actively pursuing Martin with the goal of catching him or confronting him, which I believe to be true.

Martin was likely hiding in the vicinity and he either confronted Zimmerman after he heard the phone call end, or Zimmerman stumbled on his hiding spot (one house over). Who started the physical confrontation is still unknown and the prosecution has stated they have no evidence to prove it was Zimmerman.


My apology. I must have misread. I thought you were insinuating Zimmerman shot in self-defense. If you didn't then I'm sorry :)

I think the 911 call from Zimmerman does paint a story but I feel like the Cutcher and Mora statements have the same problem: the sounds you here are not so conclusive. They fit into a larger picture.
 
2012-04-23 02:01:43 PM

Bontesla: All of these happened in your head

Ok, so I imagined all of this?


Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They were witnesses and will be treated as such by both sides. What they describe is inconsistent with Zimmerman's account.

Nothing any of the witnesses has said they saw or heard is inconsistent with Zimmerman's account.

So, Zimmerman admits to pinning Martin down? John also admits to this? (See Cutcher's statement). -Stradling isn't pinning

And the Anonymous witness - claiming the altercation took place on grass? This is consistent with Zimmerman's account? - I have yet to see anything from this anynomous witness, and given yoru track record I am going to assume anything you say abotu it is wrong..

Or the boy's staement when he said it was too dark to even make out the color of clothing? John disagrees.- john and the boy disagreeing contradicts zimmerman's testimony how?

 
2012-04-23 02:06:41 PM

liam76: Bontesla: Execute a google search comparing their statements to Zimmerman's. I would provide you with a nice one but I'm @ work. If you'd like to wait for several hours - I could get you one then as well

You have typed about a novel's worth of words in responses but you can't be bothered to type out a link (and your phone has no copy/paste capabilities) to your thus far unknown eyewitness (as far as every thread I have seen on this)?

Sure sounds legit..


I'm sure my sidekick has c/v abilities. I do not - via the sidekick. I hate my phone and plan on swapping it out soon. No desire to learn. Why would I type it out when you have access to the same internet?

If you're truly interested, I could link when I get home. . . But then again . . . If you were truly interested you'd have found it by now.

As I've stated - this isn't about facts for you. You would rather use my poor mobile skills as evidence of a lie than execute a simple Google search for verifable statements.
 
2012-04-23 02:07:21 PM

Bontesla: CITATION NEEDED


Been provided, a couple times. Your refusal to acknowledge it is more proof of your dishonesty.
 
2012-04-23 02:09:36 PM

BeesNuts: Cause as far as I can tell, both had just about equal justification for use of force.


Who touched who first? We do not know.

There are many ways it could have played out, and each would give different weight to who had 'justification for use of force'.

Only two people know, and only one can tell us.
 
2012-04-23 02:10:15 PM

PoochUMD: Bontesla: If their statements made his statements inplausible then yes - it does matter. His story is his defense. If his story is inconsistent then it is significant.

Execute a google search comparing their statements to Zimmerman's. I would provide you with a nice one but I'm @ work. If you'd like to wait for several hours - I could get you one then as well.

You're talking about someone who saw the aftermath right? If I shoot someone in self defense and then a witness comes out to see what is going on and their recollection of what happened after the shooting differs from my recollection of what happened after the shooting, what does that prove?

That witnesses testimony would have nothing to do with whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense because it happened after the shooting.


If Zimmerman's position directly after the gun shot is inconsistent with his statement then it calls into question the accuracy of his statement. That was my point.
 
2012-04-23 02:11:33 PM
"The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off so I know it was the little boy"

"Cutcher believes that even if Martin got the better of Zimmerman, it's no excuse to kill an unarmed teenager, half his size".

Notice a pattern with her statements?

Sanford police have publicly stated that she's full of shiat. Link
 
2012-04-23 02:12:50 PM

Bontesla: My apology. I must have misread. I thought you were insinuating Zimmerman shot in self-defense. If you didn't then I'm sorry :)


Everything points to him shooting to protect his own life/prevent great bodily harm, etc. What is not clear is if he put himself into that situation. Had he chased Trayvon for 3 minutes through the neighborhood and ended up 500 feet from his vehicle, he deserves some sort of punishment. If he ran behind a house to get a direction of travel to tell police and immediately stopped any sort of pursuit, I don't think he did anything wrong.
 
2012-04-23 02:13:23 PM

Bontesla: PoochUMD: Bontesla: If their statements made his statements inplausible then yes - it does matter. His story is his defense. If his story is inconsistent then it is significant.

Execute a google search comparing their statements to Zimmerman's. I would provide you with a nice one but I'm @ work. If you'd like to wait for several hours - I could get you one then as well.

You're talking about someone who saw the aftermath right? If I shoot someone in self defense and then a witness comes out to see what is going on and their recollection of what happened after the shooting differs from my recollection of what happened after the shooting, what does that prove?

That witnesses testimony would have nothing to do with whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense because it happened after the shooting.

If Zimmerman's position directly after the gun shot is inconsistent with his statement then it calls into question the accuracy of his statement. That was my point.


If you were pinned under someone, then shot them. How long would you lay under them before flipping them over and getting up? 2 seconds? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Would you just lay there until the police arrived? It is completely possible that after shooting martin he rolled him over and ended up on top to stand which would be consistent with both statements.
 
2012-04-23 02:14:08 PM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: liam76: thus far unknown eyewitness (as far as every thread I have seen on this)?

For those who can't google " 'anderson cooper' zimmerman eyewitness" lmgtfy

No claims as to which way this makes the case lean, or the reliability of this person. Just putting it out here.


THANK YOU (I didn't click the link - complex things crash my phone). . . But I really appreciate the link.
 
2012-04-23 02:14:20 PM

PoochUMD: karmaceutical: PoochUMD: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.

What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?

Well, for starters... if Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he plugged him... it makes it hard to argue that Martin had to be shot because he was bashing Zimmerman's head into a sidewalk. If Zimmerman was on top of him... he was in control. He could have chosen to walk away.

Her story doesn't suggest that Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he shot him. All it says is that after she heard the shot, and went outside she saw Zimmerman standing over him. There are two witnesses that saw the fight and both said Martin was on top, one of those witnesses actually saw when the shot went off.


Her story says he was on his knees, straddling him. Not standing over him.
 
2012-04-23 02:19:10 PM

karmaceutical: Her story says he was on his knees, straddling him. Not standing over him.


She's actually said both. Just more proof that she's full of shiat, just like the police have been saying for over a month now.

Link
 
2012-04-23 02:19:17 PM

9beers: By the way, according to police, Cutcher's story changed once this became a media sensation. The chick is an obvious attention whore that does nothing but make a bunch of assumptions based on things she didn't witness.


You know who else makes assumptions on things they didn't witness?

img546.imageshack.us

You have to squint for this one but its worth it.
img96.imageshack.us

img31.imageshack.us
 
2012-04-23 02:20:11 PM

PoochUMD: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.

What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?


Zimmerman's account is in the police report. Neither Zimmerman nor John stated that this happened.

I'm not saying John's account is more or less credible - only inconsistent.

My point was this: there is nothing that concretely shows Zimmerman being injured by Martin consistent with his testimony.

To be honest: eye witness testimony is horribly and terribly inaccurate. I would expect for every single account to be factually inaccurate in one area or another. That's why I argued for the importance of including Cutcher statements.

The most accurate picture we can form is going to be the result of everything that can be verified by another source. Then we should see what details are more porbable - which would be the jury's job.
 
2012-04-23 02:20:11 PM

karmaceutical: PoochUMD: karmaceutical: PoochUMD: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.

What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?

Well, for starters... if Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he plugged him... it makes it hard to argue that Martin had to be shot because he was bashing Zimmerman's head into a sidewalk. If Zimmerman was on top of him... he was in control. He could have chosen to walk away.

Her story doesn't suggest that Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he shot him. All it says is that after she heard the shot, and went outside she saw Zimmerman standing over him. There are two witnesses that saw the fight and both said Martin was on top, one of those witnesses actually saw when the shot went off.

Her story says he was on his knees, straddling him. Not standing over him.


Sorry. Still doesn't change the point. Two people saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him. One of those people was watching when the gun went off. After all that Mary came outside and saw Zimmerman on his knees, straddling the body. Do you expect him to lie under the body until a witness shows up? Maybe he was checking for vitals? Maybe he didn't know he was dead and he was just trying to get control of the situation. As long as you have a witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman at the time of the shooting, what someone saw after the shooting doesn't mean much.
 
2012-04-23 02:20:39 PM

Raharu: You know who else makes assumptions on things they didn't witness?


Waving the surrender flag I see.
 
2012-04-23 02:22:10 PM

Carth: If you were pinned under someone, then shot them.


If you were pinned under someone (allegedly getting your ass beat according to some random innertube people), how would you get your gun out, shoot them, and not have their blood on you and your clothes?

blood
powder burns
powder residue
 
2012-04-23 02:23:57 PM

liam76: Bontesla: They did hear evidence of a struggle.

From the same link as above.

Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground

Keep up the lies.


Hearing evidence of a struggle does not necessarily = punching and hitting.

Where did I state it did?
 
2012-04-23 02:24:06 PM

Bontesla: PoochUMD: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.

What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?

Zimmerman's account is in the police report. Neither Zimmerman nor John stated that this happened.

I'm not saying John's account is more or less credible - only inconsistent.

My point was this: there is nothing that concretely shows Zimmerman being injured by Martin consistent with his testimony.

To be honest: eye witness testimony is horribly and terribly inaccurate. I would expect for every single account to be factually inaccurate in one area or another. That's why I argued for the importance of including Cutcher statements.

The most accurate picture we can form is going to be the result of everything that can be verified by another source. Then we should see what details are more porbable - which would be the jury's job.


Link

Zimmerman told police he didn't realize that Martin was seriously injured, and that he lunged to get on top of him after the teenager fell to the ground. Moments later, a police officer from Sanford arrived, placed him in handcuffs and took his gun.
 
2012-04-23 02:26:33 PM

9beers: "The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off so I know it was the little boy"

"Cutcher believes that even if Martin got the better of Zimmerman, it's no excuse to kill an unarmed teenager, half his size".

Notice a pattern with her statements?

Sanford police have publicly stated that she's full of shiat. Link


More interesting from that is: "[Morgenstern] "The information she provided are sworn statements regarding the actions of Zimmerman, were consistent with the information Zimmerman provided to us."

No idea what who said, but haven't people been arguing about how her statement is contradictory to what Zimmerman said and that other guy actually saw? Did she change her story for the camera, or what?
 
2012-04-23 02:26:44 PM

9beers: YouPeopleAreCrazy: For those who can't google " 'anderson cooper' zimmerman eyewitness" lmgtfy

No claims as to which way this makes the case lean, or the reliability of this person. Just putting it out here.


That's not John, the one true eyewitness. That's a guy that came forward weeks later saying that he saw the fight but from a distance and couldn't make out who was who.


LOL

The one true eye witness? I guess the others can go home now.

Also, what was his distance to Zimmerman in comparison with John's? What was John's distance in comparison with Cutcher's? Where were they in relation to Zimmerman and the porch light?
 
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