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(ABC)   George Zimmerman released from jail on $150,000 bail   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 613
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3307 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2012 at 1:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-23 02:27:20 PM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: powder burns
powder residue



You do realize that the prosecution has come out and confirmed gun shot residue on Martin's clothing, right?
 
2012-04-23 02:28:00 PM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Carth: If you were pinned under someone, then shot them.

If you were pinned under someone (allegedly getting your ass beat according to some random innertube people), how would you get your gun out, shoot them, and not have their blood on you and your clothes?

blood
powder burns
powder residue


I haven't seen testimony whether there was blood on Martins shirt. Gilbreath testified at the bail hearing that Zimmerman had powder burns on his sweatshirt and skin consistent with a point blank shot.
 
2012-04-23 02:28:40 PM
gimmegimme
You said: "Really? I live on a dead end street in a pretty nice neighborhood. I occasionally engage people who I don't know. Just a polite conversation can clear up quite a lot of confusion and misunderstanding."

I dunno...if you're "concerned" about someone walking on the street near your house, I do think paranoia applies unless you have some reason to believe you are in danger.


Really? You think that concern and paranoia are the same thing? I didn't say I engage every walker on our street. That would be quite impossible as it is a popular street for people to walk and bike up. If someone gives me cause to be concerned then I engage them. You may want to look up the difference between concern and paranoia.

As I said, you have the right to ask a bystander what they are up to, but it's an interrogation. If I'm walking on your street, minding my own business, listening to music or just thinking about life, I'll probably think you're an unpleasant person for making the assumption that I am there to kidnap your children or otherwise up to no good. You may call it a conversation, but it's an interrogation; you are asking me to justify my presence in a place I have the perfect right to occupy. After all, if I give the wrong answer when you question me, you'll undoubtedly call the authorities, right?


And you think I am the paranoid one?

If you are just walking down my street on a Saturday afternoon then I will likely smile and wave. If you engage in suspicious behavior then yes, you will get some more attention. Again, how one conducts oneself is a key factor.


//Really? You think I'm a troll because I assert my right to walk a public street without justification?

No, I think you are a troll because of the way you attempt to twist words and make assumptions so that you can justify being argumentative.
 
2012-04-23 02:29:21 PM

Bontesla: The one true eye witness? I guess the others can go home now.


How many people witnessed the fight and can give details about who was on top of who and who was screaming for help?

Here's a hint, it's the number that comes after 0 and before 2.
 
2012-04-23 02:29:32 PM

Carth: YouPeopleAreCrazy: Carth: If you were pinned under someone, then shot them.

If you were pinned under someone (allegedly getting your ass beat according to some random innertube people), how would you get your gun out, shoot them, and not have their blood on you and your clothes?

blood
powder burns
powder residue

I haven't seen testimony whether there was blood on Martins shirt. Gilbreath testified at the bail hearing that Zimmerman had powder burns on his sweatshirt and skin consistent with a point blank shot.


and I completely flipped Zimmerman and Martin. Martin had powder burns on his skin and shirt.
 
2012-04-23 02:31:36 PM

liam76: Bontesla: Where did I say Mora and Cutcher said Martin was screamning? I didn't...

What "two other witnesses" were you talking about below?


Bontesla: liam76: Satanic_Hamster: liam76: He also talked tt the poplice (on the 911 call referenced, and when they were interviewsing witnesses afterwards), but thanks for makling up lies to back up your BS. You have moved from ignorance to outright dishonesty, doesn't suprise me. Way to top off your dishonesty with your strawman of "deserved to be shot".

He claimed in the interview he called 911 and said this. That's it.

You have proof "that's it"?

Because the police say they have an eyewitness that backed up that it was zimmerman calling for help.

I can claim I phoned Jesus about something, that doesn't make it true.

Given your track record on the truth you claiming it makes it harder to believe than the existence of a 2000yr old lich.

And two witnesses to contradict your one.


Context much? We were talking about how the John witness provided a statement that was not universally accepted. That was my entire point - a point I summarized multiple times.

I even stated, many times, I didn't comment on the scream for help. Nothing I said referred to the screams for help. That wasn't my point. I've even stated that none of the witness statements are accurate enough to accept in regards to the call for help.
 
2012-04-23 02:33:10 PM

Oblio13: Bontesla:
Zimmerman has the burden of proof.

Is this a recent change to our legal system?


No, affirmative defense have worked that way for a fairly long time.
 
2012-04-23 02:35:23 PM

Bontesla: That wasn't my point. I've even stated that none of the witness statements are accurate enough to accept in regards to the call for help.


John says that he saw that it was Zimmerman screaming for help. I'm pretty sure he didn't mistake the identity of the black and Hispanic guys that were right in front of him.
 
2012-04-23 02:35:51 PM

Carth: Carth: YouPeopleAreCrazy: Carth: If you were pinned under someone, then shot them.

If you were pinned under someone (allegedly getting your ass beat according to some random innertube people), how would you get your gun out, shoot them, and not have their blood on you and your clothes?

blood
powder burns
powder residue

I haven't seen testimony whether there was blood on Martins shirt. Gilbreath testified at the bail hearing that Zimmerman had powder burns on his sweatshirt and skin consistent with a point blank shot.

and I completely flipped Zimmerman and Martin. Martin had powder burns on his skin and shirt.


NO! Zimmerman had the powder burns and it was totally Martin who shot Zimmerman and this is an indisputable fact based on the eye witness testimony I have chosen to regard as fact (disregarding all others).

I think I'm starting to get this trolling thing.
 
2012-04-23 02:37:33 PM

karmaceutical: Carth: Carth: YouPeopleAreCrazy: Carth: If you were pinned under someone, then shot them.

If you were pinned under someone (allegedly getting your ass beat according to some random innertube people), how would you get your gun out, shoot them, and not have their blood on you and your clothes?

blood
powder burns
powder residue

I haven't seen testimony whether there was blood on Martins shirt. Gilbreath testified at the bail hearing that Zimmerman had powder burns on his sweatshirt and skin consistent with a point blank shot.

and I completely flipped Zimmerman and Martin. Martin had powder burns on his skin and shirt.

NO! Zimmerman had the powder burns and it was totally Martin who shot Zimmerman and this is an indisputable fact based on the eye witness testimony I have chosen to regard as fact (disregarding all others).

I think I'm starting to get this trolling thing.


I apologized about my typo 1 minute and 32 seconds after posting and my link had the correct information. Try and keep up
 
2012-04-23 02:40:59 PM

9beers: Bontesla: Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.


Cutcher never claims that Zimmerman said that, stop farking lying. The only thing Zimmerman said to her was "call the police". She does say that she saw him straddling the body but since the body was face down and Martin was shot in the chest, that doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

She also claims that she knows it was Martin screaming for help because the screams stopped after the gunshot. She claims it wasn't self defense because she saw no punching or hitting even though she admits to not seeing anything until after the shooting. Smart girl, don't you agree?


There's a Slate article in which Cutcher says Zimmerman said that. You should have enough to Google to verify. Now, as far as I know, her statement was not released. Who knows what her statement to the police says.

In that Slate article, though, she does say it.

What do I want it to mean? You seem to know - despite my never having said it.

Again, I operate under the assumption that all of the witness testimony will be factually false in one detail or another. So, it would be incorrect to characterize me as claming Cutcher's statement is gospel.
 
2012-04-23 02:43:24 PM

Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They did hear evidence of a struggle.

From the same link as above.

Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground

Keep up the lies.

Hearing evidence of a struggle does not necessarily = punching and hitting.

Where did I state it did?



What evidence of a struggle did the hear if they heard no punching, no hitting, no wrestling, and no sounds of a fight? You claiming they heard evidence of a struggle after hearing that description is a lie.
 
2012-04-23 02:44:49 PM

9beers: liam76: Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground

Keep up the lies.


Well considering we know as a matter of fact from one eyewitness close enough to identify the combatants and another that only saw silhouettes, that there was a fight, I'd say this chick isn't nearly as credible as you want her to be.


How close was John? Where was the light positioned?

I don't want Cutcher to be right. I've only argued that there are some inconsistencies between the statements.
 
2012-04-23 02:45:06 PM

9beers: You do realize that the prosecution has come out and confirmed gun shot residue on Martin's clothing, right?


No, I had not heard this.
Anything about blood on Zims clothes? If you are pinned under someone when they are shot in the chest, you might expect a drop or two of blood to get on you.
 
2012-04-23 02:45:26 PM

Bontesla: There's a Slate article in which Cutcher says Zimmerman said that.


No, she says that he was pacing back and forth near the body, like he was thinking "Oh God, what have I done". It's a statement from her interview with Anderson Cooper.
 
2012-04-23 02:47:35 PM

Bontesla: How close was John? Where was the light positioned?


John was close enough that he was able to identify who was who, what clothes they were wearing and that it was Zimmerman screaming for help. I haven't seen any information stating how far away he was but since we know the altercation took place just outside of his home, it couldn't have been more than 20 feet.
 
2012-04-23 02:49:02 PM

liam76: Bontesla: I haven't dismissed John's statement.

Yes you did. When you bring up the two women who didn;t see the struggle and pretend they trump what john saw you are dismissing his testimony.


Bontesla: Then you claim Mora and Hutcher didn't hear an altercation (which is verifably false) and then said they have insufficient knowledge (yet they were there and you were not).


You are verifiably a liar.

Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground

Bontesla: You, on the other hand, have called me a liar using what criteria?

See above. You lied. You have changed your stroy on what Maria saw a number of times, and it doesn't agreew ith any cited source.


I didn't dismiss John's testimony by bringing up someone else's statement. I have only argued that there are inconsistencies. As such, the statements need to be read with the inconsistencies in mind. That's not dismissive.

I actually only summarized what Cutcher saw. I should have said that I pulled that summary from Slate. I apologize for that.

I'm not a liar. . . But I think your reading comprehension skills are lacking.
 
2012-04-23 02:50:28 PM

PoochUMD: karmaceutical: PoochUMD: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.

What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?

Well, for starters... if Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he plugged him... it makes it hard to argue that Martin had to be shot because he was bashing Zimmerman's head into a sidewalk. If Zimmerman was on top of him... he was in control. He could have chosen to walk away.

Her story doesn't suggest that Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he shot him. All it says is that after she heard the shot, and went outside she saw Zimmerman standing over him. There are two witnesses that saw the fight and both said Martin was on top, one of those witnesses actually saw when the shot went off.


She actually used the term straddling and said it looked like Zimmerman was holding Martin down. Source: Slate.
 
2012-04-23 02:50:53 PM

Bontesla: Context much? We were talking about how the John witness provided a statement that was not universally accepted. That was my entire point - a point I summarized multiple times.


"We"? No. (another lie on your part)

I was talking with satanic hampster about a specific claim.

"Because the police say they have an eyewitness that backed up that it was zimmerman calling for help."

You contered that claim with peole who weren't eyewitnesses. Who had no idea what Martin or Zimmerman sounded like so they had no idea who yelled becasue they only heard it.

Bontesla: I even stated, many times, I didn't comment on the scream for help.


When you responded to a post abotu the scream for help that is exactly what you were doing.
 
2012-04-23 02:52:02 PM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Anything about blood on Zims clothes? If you are pinned under someone when they are shot in the chest, you might expect a drop or two of blood to get on you.


They haven't mentioned anything about blood yet. You need to remember, Martin was wearing a shirt and a hoodie that would have help contain the blood, at least initially. I would also assume that the body either fell off or Zimmerman pushed it off immediately after the shot. I would think it's very possible that Martin's blood isn't found on Zimmerman's clothing. We shouldn't be assuming that blood was flying everywhere.
 
2012-04-23 02:54:48 PM

9beers: By the way, according to police, Cutcher's story changed once this became a media sensation. The chick is an obvious attention whore that does nothing but make a bunch of assumptions based on things she didn't witness.


According to Cutcher - the police's oral summary is inconsistent with Cutcher's testimony. She said she only reached out to media after she felt the police were either incorrectly characterizing her statements or not taking them seriously. From Slate if you want to check to make sure my context is correct.

However, again, I don't find her story to trump John's. It simply provides additional information. It serves a purpose in this investigation.
 
2012-04-23 02:55:33 PM

9beers: YouPeopleAreCrazy: Anything about blood on Zims clothes? If you are pinned under someone when they are shot in the chest, you might expect a drop or two of blood to get on you.

They haven't mentioned anything about blood yet. You need to remember, Martin was wearing a shirt and a hoodie that would have help contain the blood, at least initially. I would also assume that the body either fell off or Zimmerman pushed it off immediately after the shot. I would think it's very possible that Martin's blood isn't found on Zimmerman's clothing. We shouldn't be assuming that blood was flying everywhere.


I like to imagine that it was flying everywhere as Zimmerman emptied his banana clip into the attacker.
 
2012-04-23 02:56:03 PM

Bontesla: She actually used the term straddling and said it looked like Zimmerman was holding Martin down. Source: Slate.


After he was dead, right? Which is what Zimmerman said he did directly after the shooting.

Link
 
2012-04-23 02:57:12 PM

9beers: We shouldn't be assuming that blood was flying everywhere.


True.

There are many, many things we out here in tubeland shouldn't be assuming.
 
2012-04-23 02:58:43 PM
John

Saw the fight
Saw who was screaming
Heard the gunshot
Saw the aftermath

Mary Cutcher

Heard screaming
Heard the gunshot
Saw the aftermath

We don't even know what John saw of the aftermath other than reporting that the one guy was shot and looked dead. That's from his 911 call, who knows what his statement to investigators was.
 
2012-04-23 02:59:19 PM

Bontesla: I didn't dismiss John's testimony by bringing up someone else's statement. I have only argued that there are inconsistencies. As such, the statements need to be read with the inconsistencies in mind. That's not dismissive.


I was talking about the scream for help, and yes you did dismiss it when you tried to contradict it with the testimony of two woman who didn;t see the struggle.


Bontesla: I actually only summarized what Cutcher saw. I should have said that I pulled that summary from Slate. I apologize for that.


You claimed they heard a struggle. That is directly contradicted by what they said. Even after confronted with what she actually said (no sounds of fighting) you still clung to your lie.

As far as claiming that is a summary of what you read in slate, that is another lie.

Here is the slate link, nothing in there about hearing a struggle, liar.
 
2012-04-23 03:01:00 PM

friendinpa: gimmegimme


Just out of curiosity, what gives you "cause" to be "concerned?"
 
2012-04-23 03:03:02 PM

liam76: Bontesla: All of these happened in your head

Ok, so I imagined all of this?

Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They were witnesses and will be treated as such by both sides. What they describe is inconsistent with Zimmerman's account.

Nothing any of the witnesses has said they saw or heard is inconsistent with Zimmerman's account.

So, Zimmerman admits to pinning Martin down? John also admits to this? (See Cutcher's statement). -Stradling isn't pinning

And the Anonymous witness - claiming the altercation took place on grass? This is consistent with Zimmerman's account? - I have yet to see anything from this anynomous witness, and given yoru track record I am going to assume anything you say abotu it is wrong..

Or the boy's staement when he said it was too dark to even make out the color of clothing? John disagrees.- john and the boy disagreeing contradicts zimmerman's testimony how?


You are imaging things were said or implied. They were not. We've been over this. You may be skimming... not sure ... don't care as your interest isn't in fact-finding.

Cutcher said Martin was being straddled and held down. See Slate article. Google it.

I assume the AC video someone linked upthread contains the anonymous account. If not - then you should Google.

You being lazy doesn't make me a liar. I explained how to find the sources and why I'm unable to. You could search for it but don't want to.

The boy's testimony is consistent with other statements about this taking place outside of the porch light's direct range. It was too dark to see the color red. This begs the question: where was John? I didn't mean to imply that the boy's statement directly conflicts with Zimmerman's. I meant to use it to illustrate the difficult with eye witness testimony and could have been more clear.
 
2012-04-23 03:04:55 PM

liam76: You claimed they heard a struggle.


They confirmed to Anderson Cooper that they heard a "commotion".Link
 
2012-04-23 03:05:22 PM

liam76: Bontesla: CITATION NEEDED

Been provided, a couple times. Your refusal to acknowledge it is more proof of your dishonesty.


Your definition of citation and proof amuses me. But I am easily amused...
 
2012-04-23 03:05:22 PM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: 9beers: You do realize that the prosecution has come out and confirmed gun shot residue on Martin's clothing, right?

No, I had not heard this.
Anything about blood on Zims clothes? If you are pinned under someone when they are shot in the chest, you might expect a drop or two of blood to get on you.


Neither side brought it up at the bail hearing. I'm guessing we'll hear about it one way or another at trial.
 
2012-04-23 03:07:03 PM
They heard screaming, whining and a commotion but didn't hear a fight....LOL

That might even be better than Martin's girlfriend claiming that she heard Zimmerman push Trayvon.
 
2012-04-23 03:09:56 PM

Bontesla: You being lazy doesn't make me a liar. I explained how to find the sources and why I'm unable to. You could search for it but don't want to.


Actually no you didn't.

You didn't until the last few posts say "slate" and givent here are about a million articles I had no way to know what you were referencing. After you said slate ti was pretty easy to track down what article you were talking abotu and prove you lied (about hearing a struggle).
 
2012-04-23 03:10:37 PM

9beers: "The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off so I know it was the little boy"

"Cutcher believes that even if Martin got the better of Zimmerman, it's no excuse to kill an unarmed teenager, half his size".

Notice a pattern with her statements?

Sanford police have publicly stated that she's full of shiat. Link


She also said it was really, really dark and couldn't make out Zimmerman's features.

And do you know what? Eye witness testimony is really terrible evidence. So, if she is unreliable, it'll come out at trial. My guess is all of the witnesses will be stumped because witnesses are terrible evidence.

You point out that her statement isn't perfect doesn't undermine any of my arguments. Everyone's eye witness statements will yield inconsistencies. This is what happens with eye witness statements.
 
2012-04-23 03:10:37 PM
Zimmerman's supporters are holding a rally this Sunday.
 
2012-04-23 03:12:16 PM

PoochUMD: Bontesla: My apology. I must have misread. I thought you were insinuating Zimmerman shot in self-defense. If you didn't then I'm sorry :)

Everything points to him shooting to protect his own life/prevent great bodily harm, etc. What is not clear is if he put himself into that situation. Had he chased Trayvon for 3 minutes through the neighborhood and ended up 500 feet from his vehicle, he deserves some sort of punishment. If he ran behind a house to get a direction of travel to tell police and immediately stopped any sort of pursuit, I don't think he did anything wrong.


Everything if you only toss out inconsistent witness statements.
 
2012-04-23 03:17:08 PM

9beers: Zimmerman's supporters are holding a rally this Sunday.


www.ryangarns.com

"On Sunday, the streets of Sanford, Florida were packed with 100,000 great Americans who brought their message of freedom to the land of palm trees. Their voices strong, they spoke out about the injustice suffered by George Zimmerman. Here's some footage of the rally, direct from the Sunshine State:"

i.usatoday.net
 
2012-04-23 03:18:11 PM

9beers: Zimmerman's supporters are holding a rally this Sunday.


img842.imageshack.us
 
2012-04-23 03:34:08 PM
Late to this thread, but I'll benefit, as this will allow me to add more troll/sockpuppets to my ignore list. \o/
 
2012-04-23 03:39:20 PM
A witness to the confrontation just following the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and punching him, while Zimmerman was yelling for help. This witness, who identified himself as "John", stated that "the guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911".[106] He went on to say that when he got upstairs and looked down, "the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Notice that john didn't say "The Hispanic guy" was on the bottom. All he knows is what color the shirt was. Red on bottom, yelling help help, then red on top and the other guy was dead.

Interestingly, this is one of the other witness testimonies:
A 13-year-old boy walking his dog saw a man on the ground shortly before the shooting and identified him as wearing red. His mother later disputed the testimony and claimed that the police pressured him into choosing what color the man was wearing, and that her son couldn't see any details in the dark. She also stated that the police waited five days before requesting to even question her son and said the police told her they didn't believe the shooting was self defense.

HEY GUYS THIS IS TOTES CUT & DRY, GO HOME, KIDS DEAD, Y DON'T U CRY ABOUT IT?
 
2012-04-23 03:43:12 PM

9beers: Zimmerman's supporters are holding a rally this Sunday.


I'm not sure I understand supporting the killing of an unarmed teenager. In self defense or otherwise.

Here's a clue. Are you aware of the word, "tragedy"? Cause this isn't the way people normally react to one.
 
2012-04-23 03:54:30 PM

BeesNuts: I'm not sure I understand supporting the killing of an unarmed teenager. In self defense or otherwise.


So you're fine with the lynch mob mentality surrounding this case?
 
2012-04-23 03:55:55 PM

corq: Late to this thread, but I'll benefit, as this will allow me to add more troll/sockpuppets to my ignore list. \o/


I favorite all the trolls in shades of red. I now know how Cyclops sees the world.
 
2012-04-23 03:57:44 PM

MagSeven: corq: Late to this thread, but I'll benefit, as this will allow me to add more troll/sockpuppets to my ignore list. \o/

I favorite all the trolls in shades of red. I now know how Cyclops sees the world.


Hey, I use red for trolls, too! (The trollier people get a darker shade of red.) I put cool people in green and people I'm not sure about in purple.
 
2012-04-23 04:06:32 PM

MagSeven: corq: Late to this thread, but I'll benefit, as this will allow me to add more troll/sockpuppets to my ignore list. \o/

I favorite all the trolls in shades of red. I now know how Cyclops sees the world.


I use Yellow, darkening in shade depending on their troll level.
 
2012-04-23 04:16:10 PM

Carth: Bontesla: PoochUMD: Bontesla: If their statements made his statements inplausible then yes - it does matter. His story is his defense. If his story is inconsistent then it is significant.

Execute a google search comparing their statements to Zimmerman's. I would provide you with a nice one but I'm @ work. If you'd like to wait for several hours - I could get you one then as well.

You're talking about someone who saw the aftermath right? If I shoot someone in self defense and then a witness comes out to see what is going on and their recollection of what happened after the shooting differs from my recollection of what happened after the shooting, what does that prove?

That witnesses testimony would have nothing to do with whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense because it happened after the shooting.

If Zimmerman's position directly after the gun shot is inconsistent with his statement then it calls into question the accuracy of his statement. That was my point.

If you were pinned under someone, then shot them. How long would you lay under them before flipping them over and getting up? 2 seconds? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Would you just lay there until the police arrived? It is completely possible that after shooting martin he rolled him over and ended up on top to stand which would be consistent with both statements.


Does Zimmerman say he rolled onto Martin?

Does John say Zimmerman rolled onto Martin?

Then there are inconsistencies.

That was my entire point. Your summary sounds entirely probable - but wasn't what Zimmerman or John described - hence my argument of inconsistency.

It's entirely possible that Zimmerman forgot to mentio or John didn't see it. It's entirely possible Cutcher didn't actually see it. It's entirely possible something similar happened - but everyone is wrong.

But you cannot argue everyone's testimony validates everyone else's. That was my entire point.
 
2012-04-23 04:20:41 PM

Bontesla: Carth: Bontesla: PoochUMD: Bontesla: If their statements made his statements inplausible then yes - it does matter. His story is his defense. If his story is inconsistent then it is significant.

Execute a google search comparing their statements to Zimmerman's. I would provide you with a nice one but I'm @ work. If you'd like to wait for several hours - I could get you one then as well.

You're talking about someone who saw the aftermath right? If I shoot someone in self defense and then a witness comes out to see what is going on and their recollection of what happened after the shooting differs from my recollection of what happened after the shooting, what does that prove?

That witnesses testimony would have nothing to do with whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense because it happened after the shooting.

If Zimmerman's position directly after the gun shot is inconsistent with his statement then it calls into question the accuracy of his statement. That was my point.

If you were pinned under someone, then shot them. How long would you lay under them before flipping them over and getting up? 2 seconds? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Would you just lay there until the police arrived? It is completely possible that after shooting martin he rolled him over and ended up on top to stand which would be consistent with both statements.

Does Zimmerman say he rolled onto Martin?

Does John say Zimmerman rolled onto Martin?

Then there are inconsistencies.


Zimmerman says he rolled onto Martin after the shooting. I've provided the link twice already.

John says that when he got upstairs, he heard the shot, looked outside and saw the man in red (who he said was on the bottom previously) on top of the other man,

So "yes" to both,
 
2012-04-23 04:23:56 PM
Oops, I misread Johns statement. He says that he sees the person who was previously on top lying in the grass.
 
2012-04-23 04:25:51 PM

YouPeopleAreCrazy: and not have their blood on you and your clothes


Do you think blood really just bursts forth through two layers of clothing, with only a tiny hole to come out of?
Do you think George wanted to remain under Martin?

Theory: Martin on top of George, GZ grabs his gun, shoots Trayvon. Perhaps as he is shooting, Martin tries to get away(talking fractions of a second here).
Martin, shot, moves back, while turning. Too late, he falls.
George stands up, checks Martin. Realizes what he's done, now people see him standing over Martin.

Ta-Da.
/speculates well
 
2012-04-23 04:38:48 PM

PoochUMD: karmaceutical: PoochUMD: karmaceutical: PoochUMD: Bontesla: liam76: Bontesla: They can testify to what they heard and what they saw afterward. Their testimony contradicts Zimmerman's

No it doesn't.

They testified they didn't hear a scuffle. If they were on the other side of their house when it was going on they may not hear the scuffle, but could hear the yell for help and the gunfire.

Oh ffs.

They did hear evidence of a struggle. They peaked out the blindes when they continued to hear sounds. It was too dark for them to see anything. It was dark and the only light source was a porch light which obscured Zimmerman's face.

Then they heard the shot - and they went outside.

Cutcher said she saw Zimmerman straddling the body of Martin - holding him down (inconsistent with Zimmerman's account). So, she calls out to him, and he turns but she still can't make out his face. She calls 911. He gets up and paces sayig, "oh God, what have I done?"

They were less than 20 feet away.

Where was John again? His vantage point was amazing.

What did Zimmerman say he did directly after shooting him? Why does straddling a body mean anything about what happened before hand? What about the witness who watched the whole thing from the window and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman when he was shot?

Well, for starters... if Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he plugged him... it makes it hard to argue that Martin had to be shot because he was bashing Zimmerman's head into a sidewalk. If Zimmerman was on top of him... he was in control. He could have chosen to walk away.

Her story doesn't suggest that Zimmerman was straddling Martin when he shot him. All it says is that after she heard the shot, and went outside she saw Zimmerman standing over him. There are two witnesses that saw the fight and both said Martin was on top, one of those witnesses actually saw when the shot went off.

Her story says he was on his knees, straddling him. Not standing over him.

Sorry. Still doesn't change the point. Two people saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him. One of those people was watching when the gun went off. After all that Mary came outside and saw Zimmerman on his knees, straddling the body. Do you expect him to lie under the body until a witness shows up? Maybe he was checking for vitals? Maybe he didn't know he was dead and he was just trying to get control of the situation. As long as you have a witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman at the time of the shooting, what someone saw after the shooting doesn't mean much.


These things do matter. You cannot dismiss everything contrary to your conclusion just because they don't fit . . . Especially when they show potential flaws in another's statement. If nothing else - a good lawyer understands the weaknesses and knows how to either discredit their opponent or turn the weakness into a strength.

So, for example, is Cutcher sees something John does not then either John turned away or Cutcher is mistaken. This is especially important if Zimmerman doesn't mention rolling onto Martin (even if Zimmerman innocently forgot to mention it).

Ultimately, it comes down to what's likely, given all of the evidence. And you don't want the answer to be that it's likely Zimmerman committed murder in the second degree.

I guarantee you that every witness testimony will have a weakness. This is the general rule lawyers abide by. Even if your witness has a perfectly accurate story, an attorney can focus on descriptive inconsistencies that undermine the credibility of your witness.

So, when I say John's testimony is inconsistent then if John testifies then they'll have to square that circle.

By the way - who was the second witness you mention?
 
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