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(Washington Post)   New study suggests lengthening the school day. Teachers immediately cite 8th Amendment, covering cruel and unusual punishment   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 130
    More: Unlikely, cruel and unusual punishments, charter schools, teachers  
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2994 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Apr 2012 at 8:32 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-21 07:41:57 AM  
It will give the kids an extra few minutes to figure out that pineapple/hare question.
 
2012-04-21 08:32:31 AM  
If you want kids to learn, don't look to the schools. They can only teach people who want to learn.

It's up to the parents to raise such kids. Kind of like how car manufacturers have to put a place where you can access the fuel tank to full up the car, you have to install a place in your childrens' hearts for learning to enter. Then they can fill themselves up.
 
2012-04-21 08:36:21 AM  
It will get them used to being serfs with no time for themselves early in life.
 
2012-04-21 08:37:00 AM  
The current way we school our children is far from ideal. Just making the school day longer is not the fix we need.
 
2012-04-21 08:39:21 AM  
Longer school days won't entirely fix the problem, no, but it's a huge step in the right direction. My high school had a school day ending at 4:30, and you could definitely tell the difference. Plus, having a longer school schedule is good training for later life discipline (especially since college has the opposite problem of far too much flexibility to be an effective learning environment).
 
2012-04-21 08:39:22 AM  
I also think that the after-school daycare business would be unhappy with this. It is costing me $100 a week for my son in after-school care (about 3 hours a day), versus my daughter in full time daycare (almost 9 hours) that costs $190.

They could loose a very profitable segment of their business, unless this change is limited to high school levels where day-care no longer applies.
 
2012-04-21 08:40:59 AM  
The current length of the school day was set when kids still had a parent to go home to. Now that most two parent households are double income we should adjust our school schedules to match modern employment patterns.

I'm not, however, saying that kids should spend another two hours in class. Give the kids a 30 minute break to run around on the playground in the mid morning. Give them an hour and a half for lunch with 45 minutes to eat and 45 minutes to goof off. Put them in PE every day or at least every other day.

In short, extend the school day to 5pm but don't glue their asses to a chair for eight straight hours. They'll actually do better.

I'm sure I'll talk about doing away with summer vacation later in the thread in favor of four quarters with a two week break between each.
 
2012-04-21 08:41:33 AM  
Not to mention it also cuts into time for the after-school activities like clubs and sports.
 
2012-04-21 08:41:39 AM  

doglover: If you want kids to learn, don't look to the schools. They can only teach people who want to learn.

It's up to the parents to raise such kids. Kind of like how car manufacturers have to put a place where you can access the fuel tank to full up the car, you have to install a place in your childrens' hearts for learning to enter. Then they can fill themselves up.


The overwhelming problem in our country is poor parenting.
 
2012-04-21 08:42:31 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: The current length of the school day was set when kids still had a parent to go home to. Now that most two parent households are double income we should adjust our school schedules to match modern employment patterns.

I'm not, however, saying that kids should spend another two hours in class. Give the kids a 30 minute break to run around on the playground in the mid morning. Give them an hour and a half for lunch with 45 minutes to eat and 45 minutes to goof off. Put them in PE every day or at least every other day.

In short, extend the school day to 5pm but don't glue their asses to a chair for eight straight hours. They'll actually do better.

I'm sure I'll talk about doing away with summer vacation later in the thread in favor of four quarters with a two week break between each.


When are they supposed to be having sex with their teachers in that new schedule of yours?
 
2012-04-21 08:43:16 AM  
Actually, changing to a college-like environment might be a better idea. Five hours a week per class means nothing when it's five separate hours a week. Kick it up to six hours per class and split it into two three-hour sessions. And somehow remove the idea that every class requires being taught by the lowest common denominator. One of the biggest problems I had in grade school was that the majority of each year was repetition of the last year's work before we got into something new. Maybe separating classes so those who take longer to learn can be separated by those who learn more quickly could do some good.
 
2012-04-21 08:47:57 AM  

Slives: Not to mention it also cuts into time for the after-school activities like clubs and sports.


This will never fly in the US, because
FOOTBALL!
 
2012-04-21 08:48:06 AM  

INeedAName: The overwhelming problem in our country is poor parenting.


It's easy to point the finger at parents but most parents do the best they can. The problem is that, as a society, we're drained dry by our schedules.

When my daughter was young we had the option for my wife to stay at home which she continued to do up through the second grade. Now that the wife is working again it's infinitely more difficult to juggle what needs to be done to maintain a household with our employment and her school schedules. I can't imagine how single parent families manage it.
 
2012-04-21 08:48:57 AM  

BurnShrike: When are they supposed to be having sex with their teachers in that new schedule of yours?


PE stands for "physical education"...
 
2012-04-21 08:50:41 AM  
This is all we ever did in high school in the past ...

www.shawn-stewart.com


Now they do this ...

www.iwatchstuff.com
 
2012-04-21 08:50:57 AM  
If we're going to have a longer school day, I want the following changes for the kids:

1) Longer lunch period. Right now, they have to devour everything on their plate in 15-20 minutes. Studies have shown time and again that shoveling in food as fast as you can is great only for obesity. Give them something other than french fries and pizza to eat as well.

2) The students need down times throughout the day -- and coupled with that, they need a place where they can relax (Recreation Area). Hell, it's been shown repeatedly that teenagers need naps -- they're not designed to function (sitting in a desk) for 8 hours straight. Who is?

3) This is the biggest thing -- but also the most unrealistic: Let the student learn things that are actually valuable to their interests (and society). This isn't say they should all be allowed to play video games for 8 hours a day -- but even that would be more valuable to their brains than forcing some future custodian to mindlessly learn Descartes Rule of Signs. Yeah, I'm a math teacher -- we, as a soceity, are really really bad a logistically putting people in places where they can be the most effective.
 
2012-04-21 08:50:58 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: BurnShrike: When are they supposed to be having sex with their teachers in that new schedule of yours?

PE stands for "physical education"...


Not "Penis Entry"?
 
2012-04-21 08:51:16 AM  
I was about to say "No way!" and then I realised the day finishes at 3 in TFA.

What the hell?

Me, I went to school 8.30 to 5pm, six days a week. I think that's too much, but there's a happy medium somewhere there.
 
2012-04-21 08:51:41 AM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: Slives: Not to mention it also cuts into time for the after-school activities like clubs and sports.

This will never fly in the US, because
FOOTBALL!


Easily addressed. The hours of 3:30-5pm are designated as "flex time". Athletes get specialized PE, the spastics get regular PE, study hall, music, or whatever extra curricular activities they might have.
 
2012-04-21 08:55:26 AM  
A longer school day is something everyone will say sounds good. At least until it is pointed out that it will cost more money and property taxes would have to go up. Then it will become some scheme by the teacher's unions to steal money away from job creators to pay the socialist teachers.
 
2012-04-21 08:56:23 AM  

Guntram Shatterhand: Actually, changing to a college-like environment might be a better idea. Five hours a week per class means nothing when it's five separate hours a week. Kick it up to six hours per class and split it into two three-hour sessions. And somehow remove the idea that every class requires being taught by the lowest common denominator. One of the biggest problems I had in grade school was that the majority of each year was repetition of the last year's work before we got into something new. Maybe separating classes so those who take longer to learn can be separated by those who learn more quickly could do some good.


They have to do that because kids forget about 50% of the previous year's material over the summer vacation. It's part of the reason we need to do away with summer vacation in favor of a handful of shorter breaks over the course of the year.

Also, nailing a fifth graders ass to a chair for three hours doesn't mean he's going to be paying attention for more than one.
 
2012-04-21 08:58:11 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Also, nailing a fifth graders ass to a chair for three hours doesn't mean he's going to be paying attention for more than one.


Have a seat over there, please.
 
2012-04-21 08:59:49 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: INeedAName: The overwhelming problem in our country is poor parenting.

It's easy to point the finger at parents but most parents do the best they can. The problem is that, as a society, we're drained dry by our schedules.

When my daughter was young we had the option for my wife to stay at home which she continued to do up through the second grade. Now that the wife is working again it's infinitely more difficult to juggle what needs to be done to maintain a household with our employment and her school schedules. I can't imagine how single parent families manage it.


And you are probably miles ahead of most parents. I've been working with a variety of youth demographics over the past decade and by a large margin, the problems they carry stem directly from the parenting they get at home.
 
2012-04-21 08:59:51 AM  

grimeystubs: A longer school day is something everyone will say sounds good. At least until it is pointed out that it will cost more money and property taxes would have to go up. Then it will become some scheme by the teacher's unions to steal money away from job creators to pay the socialist teachers.


How much more will it cost. Teachers are already salaried, administrator is as well. You may need to add a few more PE teachers or extra curricular activity proctors but, on the whole, most of the costs are already covered. Also, if structured correctly, it might give teacher some dedicated prep / grading time.
 
2012-04-21 09:03:09 AM  

doglover: If you want kids to learn, don't look to the schools. They can only teach people who want to learn.

It's up to the parents to raise such kids. Kind of like how car manufacturers have to put a place where you can access the fuel tank to full up the car, you have to install a place in your childrens' hearts for learning to enter. Then they can fill themselves up.


QFT
 
2012-04-21 09:04:40 AM  
after a certain age most students should be learning from home via computers.
 
2012-04-21 09:06:24 AM  
I think some of you have highly unrealistic ideas about the ability of teenagers to perform well under some of these conditions. 3 hour classes? A nine hour school day? There may be some benefit to having longer classes, but that stuff sounds like torture. Having long breaks for Rec time seems like a good idea, but who's going to pay for it? Keeping kids longer will cost extra money. Not to mention it'll drop the buses right into rush hour traffic.
 
2012-04-21 09:07:47 AM  
Studies have also shown that changing the school day to be 10-5 instead of 8-3 significantly improves students' ability to pay attention. We aren't doing that and we aren't going to do this.
 
2012-04-21 09:08:52 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: grimeystubs: A longer school day is something everyone will say sounds good. At least until it is pointed out that it will cost more money and property taxes would have to go up. Then it will become some scheme by the teacher's unions to steal money away from job creators to pay the socialist teachers.

How much more will it cost. Teachers are already salaried, administrator is as well. You may need to add a few more PE teachers or extra curricular activity proctors but, on the whole, most of the costs are already covered. Also, if structured correctly, it might give teacher some dedicated prep / grading time.


Uh, I'm pretty sure if you increase the time all teachers have to be in class by 17%, they'll demand increases in pay.
 
2012-04-21 09:09:57 AM  

INeedAName: And you are probably miles ahead of most parents. I've been working with a variety of youth demographics over the past decade and by a large margin, the problems they carry stem directly from the parenting they get at home.


We knew going into it that parental involvement was the primary factor in a child's scholastic success so we skip a few things we might otherwise enjoy to ensure the kid gets what she needs but, yeah, we're not typical by any metric.

Money makes it easier too. The kid loves anime and Japanese culture so it helps that I can drop a few hundred on Rosetta Stone and spend time learning it with her. That's not an option for a lot of families.
 
2012-04-21 09:15:11 AM  

turbidum: Uh, I'm pretty sure if you increase the time all teachers have to be in class by 17%, they'll demand increases in pay.


Administration costs are largely unaffected. Class time doesn't scale linearly because I already worked in the addition of additional PE teachers / activity proctors. Where the teachers got a ten minute break during recess they would get 30, where they got 30 minutes for lunch they'd now get an hour and a half to use as lunch or prep time, the hours after 3 would largely be focused on guided extracurriculars so that would largely result in dedicated prep time for most teachers.
 
2012-04-21 09:15:13 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: The current length of the school day was set when kids still had a parent to go home to. Now that most two parent households are double income we should adjust our school schedules to match modern employment patterns.

I'm not, however, saying that kids should spend another two hours in class. Give the kids a 30 minute break to run around on the playground in the mid morning. Give them an hour and a half for lunch with 45 minutes to eat and 45 minutes to goof off. Put them in PE every day or at least every other day.

In short, extend the school day to 5pm but don't glue their asses to a chair for eight straight hours. They'll actually do better.


I completely agree. Part of my problem with extending the school day is that it takes away time that children spend on activities that are good for their development (sports, clubs, music, etc) for which many schools don't make time during the school day. My worry is that if we extend the school day, many schools will just use that trying hopelessly to keep irritable, under-stimulated children focused.

However, before we lengthen the school day, I'd like to see some changes made to the educational system that would suggest it wouldn't just be a waste of everyone's time. I don't want an extra 2-3 hours of standardized test prep. I'd love to see the educational system move in a direction that will produce good thinkers instead of good test takers before we talk about forcing children to spend more time in it.
 
2012-04-21 09:16:25 AM  
Not like dealing with 51 different boards of education with 51 different standards is going to make things any easier.

/need to address that problem first
 
2012-04-21 09:17:16 AM  

Blink: If we're going to have a longer school day, I want the following changes for the kids:

1) Longer lunch period. Right now, they have to devour everything on their plate in 15-20 minutes. Studies have shown time and again that shoveling in food as fast as you can is great only for obesity. Give them something other than french fries and pizza to eat as well.

2) The students need down times throughout the day -- and coupled with that, they need a place where they can relax (Recreation Area). Hell, it's been shown repeatedly that teenagers need naps -- they're not designed to function (sitting in a desk) for 8 hours straight. Who is?

3) This is the biggest thing -- but also the most unrealistic: Let the student learn things that are actually valuable to their interests (and society). This isn't say they should all be allowed to play video games for 8 hours a day -- but even that would be more valuable to their brains than forcing some future custodian to mindlessly learn Descartes Rule of Signs. Yeah, I'm a math teacher -- we, as a soceity, are really really bad a logistically putting people in places where they can be the most effective.


Newsletter please.
 
2012-04-21 09:17:42 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: How much more will it cost. Teachers are already salaried, administrator is as well. You may need to add a few more PE teachers or extra curricular activity proctors but, on the whole, most of the costs are already covered. Also, if structured correctly, it might give teacher some dedicated prep / grading time.


So you think just because someone is on salary it is ok to add 10-15 hours per week and not increase their pay? Really? Know server administration? If you are good then I have a job for you that is salary for 30 hours a week, but I will need you to work 50 with no overtime. After all you are on salary so its all good.

Also costs like electricity will be higher. Unless of course you are also good with turning off things like AC and lights at the same time as the existing school day. Then there is also additional wear and tear on infrastructure.
 
2012-04-21 09:20:34 AM  
Name the top ten most valuable skills/lessons/knowledge you learned in your life.

How many of those were in grade school?
 
2012-04-21 09:24:02 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: turbidum: Uh, I'm pretty sure if you increase the time all teachers have to be in class by 17%, they'll demand increases in pay.

Administration costs are largely unaffected. Class time doesn't scale linearly because I already worked in the addition of additional PE teachers / activity proctors. Where the teachers got a ten minute break during recess they would get 30, where they got 30 minutes for lunch they'd now get an hour and a half to use as lunch or prep time, the hours after 3 would largely be focused on guided extracurriculars so that would largely result in dedicated prep time for most teachers.


Except that most districts are broke, and PE is often a 1 or 2 day a week thing now - activity proctors are unheard of in large urban districts where these changes are looking to be implemented.
 
2012-04-21 09:26:16 AM  

Tanthalas39: Name the top ten most valuable skills/lessons/knowledge you learned in your life.

How many of those were in grade school?


Reading is absolutely top of the list of skills which I learned in grade school.
Arithmetic, as the foundation for later mathematics, is up there as well.
Basic sciences in grade school stimulated a lifelong passion.
Playing well with others and working cooperatively definitely sits high on the list.

Honestly, the foundation of just about every skill I use or knowledge I value was laid in grade school.
 
2012-04-21 09:27:24 AM  

Tanthalas39: Name the top ten most valuable skills/lessons/knowledge you learned in your life.

How many of those were in grade school?


1. Sit still
2. Pay attention
3. Do as you're told
4. Don't think for yourself
5. Creativity is punished
6. He with the coolest clothes wins
7. Popularity is more important than academics

I'm sure I can come up with 3 more given a few minutes
 
2012-04-21 09:30:24 AM  

Tanthalas39: Name the top ten most valuable skills/lessons/knowledge you learned in your life.

How many of those were in grade school?


How many of them were even in school at all? If your parents didn't have you reading and doing some simple math by kindergarten then your parents were shiatty parents. If they didn't teach you to share they were shiatty parents. The problem we will never be able to overcome is that the US is chockfull of shiatty parents.
 
2012-04-21 09:30:35 AM  

grimeystubs: So you think just because someone is on salary it is ok to add 10-15 hours per week and not increase their pay? Really?


You seem to be under the mistaken impression that teachers only work during class time. My wife looked at teaching as a second career. Teachers put in a minimum of forty hours and commonly up to sixty a week. Extending the length of the school day without extending their class time commitment will only serve to recognize this fact and shut up the idiots who think a teacher's day stops at the 3pm bell.
 
ows
2012-04-21 09:31:49 AM  

doglover: It's up to the parents to raise such kids. Kind of like how car manufacturers have to put a place where you can access the fuel tank to full up the car, you have to install a place in your childrens' hearts for learning to enter. Then they can fill themselves up.


um, you suck.

at analogies. i have to go fill up. beer goes in mouth hole.
 
2012-04-21 09:32:52 AM  
I have a better idea. Spend more time with your kids or stop having them. You can say all you want about the school day, but where I work, plenty of kids are dropped off at 7:30am and not picked up until 6pm. Lets face it, most schools these days are little more than very well educated babysitters. I read above where someone said 'Most parents do the best they can'. Really? The best you can is to be a parent to these kids. Stop worrying about the new plasma and that Murano you always wanted so you can look as good as the Joneses, and raise your darn kids. You don't have to have AirForce Ones and an iPhone. And, before someone jumps in and says, "But my kid will be seen as not equal to the ones that have all this crap, they will be ridiculed and blah blah.". Who cares??? If you teach your kids, and I mean YOU, not the babysitting school, to be self reliant and self confident, I assure you they will also not care if they have every little gadget. And, if they DO feel like they will be picked on because they don't have rich parents... well, that is a symptom of something the parents need to address, because your kid is turning out just like you.

Now, get off my lawn...
 
2012-04-21 09:33:17 AM  

naughtyrev: Monkeyhouse Zendo: turbidum: Uh, I'm pretty sure if you increase the time all teachers have to be in class by 17%, they'll demand increases in pay.

Administration costs are largely unaffected. Class time doesn't scale linearly because I already worked in the addition of additional PE teachers / activity proctors. Where the teachers got a ten minute break during recess they would get 30, where they got 30 minutes for lunch they'd now get an hour and a half to use as lunch or prep time, the hours after 3 would largely be focused on guided extracurriculars so that would largely result in dedicated prep time for most teachers.

Except that most districts are broke, and PE is often a 1 or 2 day a week thing now - activity proctors are unheard of in large urban districts where these changes are looking to be implemented.


Yep. As a nation, we definitely have skewed priorities.
 
2012-04-21 09:34:05 AM  

Guntram Shatterhand: Maybe separating classes so those who take longer to learn can be separated by those who learn more quickly could do some good.


Sadly, anytime and most anywhere you try this, the groups end up being demographically different and charges of bias ensue.
 
2012-04-21 09:34:51 AM  

ace in your face: The problem we will never be able to overcome is that the US is chockfull of shiatty parents.


That's what happens when everyone is running as fast as they can just to stay in one place.
 
2012-04-21 09:35:16 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: You seem to be under the mistaken impression that teachers only work during class time. My wife looked at teaching as a second career. Teachers put in a minimum of forty hours and commonly up to sixty a week. Extending the length of the school day without extending their class time commitment will only serve to recognize this fact and shut up the idiots who think a teacher's day stops at the 3pm bell.


The only teachers who work less than forty hours a week are day-to-day substitutes. The teachers who work less than 50+ are ones who've been teaching the same classes/grades for a few years.
 
ows
2012-04-21 09:36:04 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: You seem to be under the mistaken impression that teachers only work during class time. My wife looked at teaching as a second career. Teachers put in a minimum of forty hours and commonly up to sixty a week. Extending the length of the school day without extending their class time commitment will only serve to recognize this fact and shut up the idiots who think a teacher's day stops at the 3pm bell.


they work less than 9 months a year. some get paid to do nothing. some get 3 pensions. some sex up your kids.
 
2012-04-21 09:36:51 AM  

TheHighlandHowler: y


TheHighlandHowler: Guntram Shatterhand: Maybe separating classes so those who take longer to learn can be separated by those who learn more quickly could do some good.

Sadly, anytime and most anywhere you try this, the groups end up being demographically different and charges of bias ensue.


Usually because bias almost inevitably ensues. Separate but equal never seems to work out that way, no matter how sincere the intention.
 
2012-04-21 09:37:47 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: ace in your face: The problem we will never be able to overcome is that the US is chockfull of shiatty parents.

That's what happens when everyone is running as fast as they can just to stay in one place.


More like that's what happens when fundies push a culture of no birth control or abortion.
 
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