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(CNN)   George Zimmerman bail set at $150,000, or about 75,000 bags of Skittles and cans of Arizona Iced Tea   (news.blogs.cnn.com) divider line 1334
    More: Followup, Rawalpindi, neighborhood watch, a.m. ET, Angela Corey, flight risk, seriousness, American Airlines, leniency  
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3543 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Apr 2012 at 11:29 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-20 12:44:09 PM  
So when will the First Annual Treyvon Memorial Riots start and how many neighborhoods will they burn down?
 
2012-04-20 12:44:17 PM  

beta_plus: Serious Black: 1) George Zimmerman did not go to the hospital for his head injuries afterward. He didn't even get stitches for the cuts. He just got cleaned up by the paramedics. How the hell can you feel you are in imminent danger when your wounds aren't even bad enough to require admission to a hospital?

You're right. He should have waited while the Angel Trayvon blessed him with Trayvon's holy fists until he was just on the cusp of death and staring into the abyss of oblivion before defending himself.


Yeah, I don't get the argument that "He didn't get stitches, obviously he wasn't badly hurt". If you are afraid for your life you don't have to wait until you are almost dead to take action.

If somebody was charging at me with a knife, I would have to wait until they stabbed me to shoot them in order for it to be self defense. In that example I'd be totally unhurt and totally justified.
 
2012-04-20 12:44:28 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I am having touble understanding why so many white people seem to have such a vested interest in seeing Zimmerman get off.


I guess all us white people don't want to see a Hispanic man lynched....
 
2012-04-20 12:44:58 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I am having touble understanding why so many

white black people seem to have such a vested interest in seeing Zimmerman get off life in prison or killed for defending himself.

FTFY
 
2012-04-20 12:45:54 PM  

9beers: Had the police shown up and not found any evidence to back Zimmerman's story, he would have been arrested on the spot.


Unfortunately for your little justification, the cop on the scene thought there was evidence. He was overruled by the prosecutor and his superiors at the scene, and felt strongly enough about it to swear out an affidavit saying that they were wrong.

But in Third World shiatholes, judge's sons get off scot-free.
 
2012-04-20 12:45:58 PM  

nopokerface: Scerpes: It's pretty straight forward. The judge will have to make a factual determination and rule on Zimmerman's claim of self defense.

What kind of ruling does the judge make? I suppose it's possible he could say there isn't enough evidence of self defense to allow Zimmerman to present it to the jury as an affirmative defense. I'll bet whatever you want against that ruling happenning. Beyond that, the jury determines whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense.


There is an initial hearing where Zimmerman has to convince the Judge with a preponderance of the evidence (at least 51% chance, in layman terms) that he did indeed act in self defense. If the Judge decides that this was at least 51% likely then we are done. No trial. It's not illegal to act in self-defense.

If the Judge doesn't find that he acted in self-defense, then it goes to trial and it is on the Prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (much higher standard than preponderance of the evidence) that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

Judging by what the prosecution said today, their ability to disprove self-defense seems highly unlikely and I think that based on the admissions of the prosecution today (see below) that the Judge won't even let this get to trial.

From the televised hearing today...

D = Defense / P = Prosecution

D - Do you have any evidence that supports who started the fight? P - No

D - Do you have any evidence in your investigation to date that contradicts or conflicts with his (Zimmerman's) contention that he...
Turned back to his car - P - No
That Martin assaulted first - P - No

P - The shooting was in close proximity. Powder burns were on the sweatshirt. Stippling on Martin to indicate close proximity.

D - Is the evidence inconsistent with Zimmerman saying his head was being hit on the ground? P - No

D - What are the injuries? P - Two lacerations to the back of his head.

D - Could it have been from his head hitting the ground? P - Yes

D - Have you asked Zimmerman for medical records showing that his nose was broken? P - No. D - Would you like a copy of them? P - *stunned look*
 
2012-04-20 12:47:35 PM  

Serious Black: Two points:


1. It's reasonable fear of bodily harm/death, not experiencing it. That's like asking "how come people are scared of the dark if there are not monsters lurking in it?" Your hindsight may be 20/20, but your present logic is defunct.

2. The way the law was before, and still in in some states. you HAVE to try to flee BEFORE trying to defend your self, when in reasonable fear for great bodily harm or death. Stand your ground is not as permissive as you try to make it sound. It is pro victim, in that the victim doesn't get wrongly punished for the tendency to defend one's self.

Really, you're looking at the law in the most ass backwards manner possible, (rational)people don't look at that law and decide to go act it out, just because they "can". The law is applied to details of an event to determine if the right thing was done. Again, it's not about what one feels having that hindsight, but what was reasonable at the time.
 
2012-04-20 12:47:54 PM  

Serious Black: That gets to what I said in point 2 that Stand Your Ground laws are ludicrous. It's completely irrelevant whether you provoked the initial conflict. All that matters is you think at some point in that conflict that you can't escape and are in danger of being seriously hurt or killed.


Actually, no.

Georgia has the exact same law. They recently sent a black man to jail for many years for shooting a white guy that was armed with a knife and charging him while on the black guys property.

The law is terrible. I could use it to kill every man, woman, and child in Florida if you go by how it is written. This is going to explode. Zimmerman needs to plead to manslaughter and do five years. Sure, Sharpton will be pissed about 'only five years', but it will get us past this and MAYBE give legislatures a chance to better word these laws.
 
2012-04-20 12:48:04 PM  

Silly Jesus: Yes, I watched it live. There will be a transcript out shortly, I assume, if you don't believe me.

I couldn't believe what I was watching either.



No, I believe you. It's just that I am stunned too.

Prosecution is screwed.
 
2012-04-20 12:48:27 PM  

The Numbers: FTA: The prosecutor asked Gilbreath whether there was any evidence indicating that Zimmerman's account that Martin bashed his head against a sidewalk wasn't true. Gilbreath said yes.


D - Is the evidence inconsistent with Zimmerman saying his head was being hit on the ground? P - No

D - What are the injuries? P - Two lacerations to the back of his head.

D - Could it have been from his head hitting the ground? P - Yes


So they admit that they can't prove that Zimmerman's head wasn't being hit on the ground but have evidence that Martin didn't do it? LOL!
 
2012-04-20 12:48:54 PM  

tallguywithglasseson: Headso: You see super high bail set all the time for lesser crimes, I don't doubt he is going to show up to court and won't be killing any more teenagers for the time being. It just struck me as interesting that in this high profile case they set the bail that low.

I don't think the bail is actually that low, it's $150k.

Yeah I've seen ridiculously high bail before, but that should be for people who are flight risks, etc. There are probably cases of a-hole judges who set bail unnecessarily high, but shouldn't be accepted as the norm.

Personally I think they're overcharging this case. But that's kind of routine - the only think is, in this case, I'm not sure they're doing it to try to negotiate a plea (e.g., for manslaughter). The prosecutor may not see that as an option, due to public pressure. May see an acquittal as a result (see: Casey Anthony), even if the self-defense claims are rejected.


Manslaughter is the charge that should have been pursued, but has anyone said if it is off the table?
Just this week where I live a jury convicted a guy of manslaughter even though he was on trial for first degree murder.

Plus, Florida does have a statute where a manslaughter conviction is possible if the person causes the death of a juvenile through negligence, which would be a very easy conviction to get in this case.
 
2012-04-20 12:48:59 PM  
Remember when people looked at the indistinct video and said it showed no wounds then started frothing at the mouth? If that was you, here is the lesson: Don't rush to judgement.

Let me say this, I am not convinced the new photo is really of Zimmyboy until it stands up as evidence in a court of law.
 
2012-04-20 12:49:17 PM  

2 grams: Hmmmm . Who to believe?


Wearing a hoodie. Legal.

Being black. Legal.

Walking down the street. Legal.

Running from some creepy guy who is watching and following you. Legal.



You mean the dead one can't tell their side of the story. Amazing.

Sorry but in this country being the survivor does not automatically absolve you of any wrongdoing.
 
2012-04-20 12:49:42 PM  
Zimmerman will get off. Just like all the right wing heroes do in Fla. They can't make their lawmakers look bad. The prosecutors will take one for the team here. That's why they overcharged him. It's why they botched the investigation initially.
 
2012-04-20 12:49:49 PM  

Giltric: Gladys: The moral of the story here, kids: Don't attack somebody who has a gun.

Also, don't bring a bag of skittles to a gun fight.


Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight

1.Forget about knives, bats and fists. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring four times the ammunition you think you could ever need.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap - life is expensive. If you shoot inside, buckshot is your friend. A new wall is cheap - funerals are expensive

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker and go to cover. Distance is your friend. (Bulletproof cover and diagonal or lateral movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a semi or full-automatic long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. Yell "Fire!" Why "Fire"? Cops will come with the Fire Department, sirens often scare off the bad guys, or at least cause then to lose concentration and will.... and who is going to summon help if you yell "Intruder," "Glock" or "Winchester?"

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Stretch the rules. Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. "No battle plan ever survives 10 seconds past first contact with an enemy."

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible, but remember, sheetrock walls and the like stop nothing but your pulse when bullets tear through them.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. Practice reloading one-handed and off-hand shooting. That's how you live if hit in your "good" side.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. Smiles, frowns and other facial expressions don't (In God we trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.)

19. Decide NOW to always be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary, because they may want to kill you.

22. Be courteous to everyone, overly friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".

25. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket." At a practice session, throw your gun into the mud, then make sure it still works. You can clean it later.

26. Practice shooting in the dark, with someone shouting at you, when out of breath, etc.

27. Regardless of whether justified of not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.

28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."


Well played. Plus 1 internets.
 
2012-04-20 12:49:58 PM  

Party-sized bucket of flan: Can somebody PLEASE distract the black community with something else so we can stop having this Trayvon BS shoved down our throats?


No! keep them distracted! The referendum movement in Baltimore against gay marriage seems to have died down because they're focusing on Skittles!
 
2012-04-20 12:50:20 PM  

Scerpes: You got an idea of what the judge thinks so far, with the low bail amount.


That is interesting. I do think it's a good idea that people who were clearly acting in self defense can be exonerated without risking the vagaries of the jury system, and decisions like that are what we have judges for (hell, he can have his case heard by a judge even if there is a trial). But, I think it does invite abuse. The case mentioned above sure sounds shaky. Should be interesting to see how it plays out. I bet the judge has reservations about having the entire resolution of this sh*t storm resting on his weary brow.
 
2012-04-20 12:50:21 PM  

Viljo Tawast: Here's the thing about this:

We have bits and pieces of the story, but not the full picture. One thing in the questioning that stands out is that prosecutors stated that they have evidence that Zimmerman lied about his head being beaten into a curb. Zimmerman also claims that he was returning to his car when Trayvon attacked him.


Wrong

Defense atty presented the medical records at the hearing showing his head was bloody. The lead investigator did not have the records

In fact, the prosecutors have no clue who started what, when. They admitted this in testimony. They are stuck with it now...because if they change their story....their case is dead.
 
2012-04-20 12:50:50 PM  

Silly Jesus: nopokerface: Scerpes: It's pretty straight forward. The judge will have to make a factual determination and rule on Zimmerman's claim of self defense.

What kind of ruling does the judge make? I suppose it's possible he could say there isn't enough evidence of self defense to allow Zimmerman to present it to the jury as an affirmative defense. I'll bet whatever you want against that ruling happenning. Beyond that, the jury determines whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense.

There is an initial hearing where Zimmerman has to convince the Judge with a preponderance of the evidence (at least 51% chance, in layman terms) that he did indeed act in self defense. If the Judge decides that this was at least 51% likely then we are done. No trial. It's not illegal to act in self-defense.

If the Judge doesn't find that he acted in self-defense, then it goes to trial and it is on the Prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (much higher standard than preponderance of the evidence) that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

Judging by what the prosecution said today, their ability to disprove self-defense seems highly unlikely and I think that based on the admissions of the prosecution today (see below) that the Judge won't even let this get to trial.

From the televised hearing today...

D = Defense / P = Prosecution

D - Do you have any evidence that supports who started the fight? P - No

D - Do you have any evidence in your investigation to date that contradicts or conflicts with his (Zimmerman's) contention that he...
Turned back to his car - P - No
That Martin assaulted first - P - No

P - The shooting was in close proximity. Powder burns were on the sweatshirt. Stippling on Martin to indicate close proximity.

D - Is the evidence inconsistent with Zimmerman saying his head was being hit on the ground? P - No

D - What are the injuries? P - Two lacerations to the back of his head.

D - Could it have been from his head hitting the ground? P - Yes

D - ...


It's curious that you only focus on that part of the exchanges, and omit this one:

FTA: The prosecutor asked Gilbreath whether there was any evidence indicating that Zimmerman's account that Martin bashed his head against a sidewalk wasn't true. Gilbreath said yes.
 
2012-04-20 12:50:51 PM  

s2s2s2: factoryconnection: Remember one thing, no matter whose side you're on: if George Zimmerman hadn't shown up, no laws would have been broken, no one would be dead, and George would just be another, anonymous busybody.

That's right, citizens. Take no action in your community toward the reduction of crime, otherwise something bad might happen.


Zimmerman did take action. He saw something suspicious & called the cops.
That what neighborhood WATCH is supposed to do.

Just because he THOUGHT the kid was a criminal & THOUGHT the cops weren't doing enough doesn't mean he can invoke what he THINKS is justice.
 
2012-04-20 12:51:45 PM  

CheatCommando: Unfortunately for your little justification, the cop on the scene thought there was evidence. He was overruled by the prosecutor and his superiors at the scene, and felt strongly enough about it to swear out an affidavit saying that they were wrong.


Well except that's not true. A reporter made some wrong assumptions and ran with a story that the city debunked in a press release.
 
2012-04-20 12:51:52 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Zimmerman will get off. Just like all the right wing heroes do in Fla. They can't make their lawmakers look bad. The prosecutors will take one for the team here. That's why they overcharged him. It's why they botched the investigation initially.


And Zimmerman will have to change his identity.
 
2012-04-20 12:52:33 PM  

Silly Jesus: From the televised hearing today...

D = Defense / P = Prosecution

D - Do you have any evidence that supports who started the fight? P - No

D - Do you have any evidence in your investigation to date that contradicts or conflicts with his (Zimmerman's) contention that he...
Turned back to his car - P - No
That Martin assaulted first - P - No

P - The shooting was in close proximity. Powder burns were on the sweatshirt. Stippling on Martin to indicate close proximity.

D - Is the evidence inconsistent with Zimmerman saying his head was being hit on the ground? P - No

D - What are the injuries? P - Two lacerations to the back of his head.

D - Could it have been from his head hitting the ground? P - Yes

D - Have you asked Zimmerman for medical records showing that his nose was broken? P - No. D - Would you like a copy of them? P - *stunned look*


While I believe you, part of me simply can't get my head around that that actually happened.

/trying to find the video
//anyone a black belt of google-fu?
 
2012-04-20 12:52:38 PM  

stoli n coke: topcon: Have we all forgotten that Zimmerman is a registered Democrat? That particular talking point seems to have went by the wayside. I do love talking points.

Being mad that someone shot an unarmed teenager he was following for no good reason is a partisan issue?


Yes.
 
2012-04-20 12:52:51 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: So when will the First Annual Treyvon Memorial Riots start and how many neighborhoods will they burn down?


Only one town, but it will turn out to be a fake town that was built as an exact replica to fool the people trying to burn it down.
 
2012-04-20 12:52:52 PM  

bionicjoe: s2s2s2: factoryconnection: Remember one thing, no matter whose side you're on: if George Zimmerman hadn't shown up, no laws would have been broken, no one would be dead, and George would just be another, anonymous busybody.

That's right, citizens. Take no action in your community toward the reduction of crime, otherwise something bad might happen.

Zimmerman did take action. He saw something suspicious & called the cops.
That what neighborhood WATCH is supposed to do.

Just because he THOUGHT the kid was a criminal & THOUGHT the cops weren't doing enough doesn't mean he can invoke what he THINKS is justice.


Yeah, because that's what happened. You nailed it. He walked over there and said "Durr, I'm gonna shoot this guy because he's criming up our subdivision."
 
2012-04-20 12:53:06 PM  

crab66: Running from some creepy guy who is watching and following you. Legal.


Doubling back, confronting and sucker punching - illegal.
 
2012-04-20 12:53:13 PM  
Guys, stand your ground law has nothing to do with this case. I hope you can finally friggin realize this.

That only applies if a person can retreat. According to what supposedly went down, Zimmerman did not have that option. So, it is just a plain old self-defense case. Christ.
 
2012-04-20 12:53:22 PM  

Thunderpipes: crab66: Thoguh: Moral of the story. In Florida, make sure your victims are dead and there are no witnesses.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I seem to recall that there are witnesses, and they support Zimmerman's description of what happened.

You are wrong. No one saw who attacked who.

Then there is no way Zimmerman can possibly be convicted. All the evidence supports Zimmerman's story so far. The only evidence we have about the actual start of the altercation is from Zimmerman. Sorry if that offends liberals, but that is all. All the BS, the race bating, the made up stories about Zimmerman, none of them mean anything. The only facts support Zimmerman as a nice concerned citizen, a Democrat, that was active in his community and helped black people.

Liberals needed their white whale, and they went after a brown one instead. They are being called on their asshattery. Their mouths are writing checks taxpayer money can't cash.


Well put....
 
2012-04-20 12:53:25 PM  

madgonad: Serious Black: That gets to what I said in point 2 that Stand Your Ground laws are ludicrous. It's completely irrelevant whether you provoked the initial conflict. All that matters is you think at some point in that conflict that you can't escape and are in danger of being seriously hurt or killed.

Actually, no.

Georgia has the exact same law. They recently sent a black man to jail for many years for shooting a white guy that was armed with a knife and charging him while on the black guys property.

The law is terrible. I could use it to kill every man, woman, and child in Florida if you go by how it is written. This is going to explode. Zimmerman needs to plead to manslaughter and do five years. Sure, Sharpton will be pissed about 'only five years', but it will get us past this and MAYBE give legislatures a chance to better word these laws.


It's not the law, it's the mis-application of it due to the people. You're talking about a country full of people that will award a woman millions of dollars for spilling coffee on herself.
 
2012-04-20 12:53:31 PM  

Zizzowop: Yes, all my knowledge comes from movies, mostly anyway.


Hey, Cameron. You realize if we played by the rules right now we'd be in gym?

He'll keep calling me, he'll keep calling me until I come over. He'll make me feel guilty. This is uh... This is ridiculous, ok I'll go, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go. What - I'LL GO. shiat.

A: You can never go too far. B: If I'm gonna get busted, it is *not* gonna be by a guy like *that*.

Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
 
2012-04-20 12:53:32 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Once again the Fark Lib Pansies are terrified of a free citizens right to defend his home, liberty, family, and honor with the 2nd amendment free exercise of firearms possession. Personally, I honor the freedom to defend liberty of the Founding Fathers of this great nation by carrying the firearms that by which the freedom of this great land was created!

You see, the Fark Libs (sheep) don't realize that they are beset on all sides by wolves (THUGS) and wolves in sheep clothing (Obama). Sheep don't see how the freedom provided by me in the form of protection wherein exercising the rights of liberty to defend justice from those who would take away your life, wife, liberty, and honor must be defended at all times.

You sheep just keep thinking you're safe. I'll be the shepherd.

Ever watchful. Ever vigilant.



I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if you really are a completely paranoid delusional lunatic.
 
2012-04-20 12:55:19 PM  

topcon: Unlike you, THAT black guy in the video can admit what really happens.


THIS!!!
 
2012-04-20 12:55:47 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: So when will the First Annual Treyvon Memorial Riots start and how many neighborhoods will they burn down?


Tree!
/ducks and runs...
 
2012-04-20 12:55:50 PM  

schattenteufel: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if you really are a completely paranoid delusional lunatic.


It's always to just assume the latter. If you're laughed at for falling for a troll then so be it but the Vegas odds are usually that they mean what they say.
 
2012-04-20 12:56:01 PM  

TimonC346: beta_plus: Serious Black: 1) George Zimmerman did not go to the hospital for his head injuries afterward. He didn't even get stitches for the cuts. He just got cleaned up by the paramedics. How the hell can you feel you are in imminent danger when your wounds aren't even bad enough to require admission to a hospital?

You're right. He should have waited while the Angel Trayvon blessed him with Trayvon's holy fists until he was just on the cusp of death and staring into the abyss of oblivion before defending himself.

While I believe Zimmerman was the aggressor here--having the mind to assess your injuries while someone is kicking your ass would be inhuman. Someone being close to you, depending on the person, could make them feel threatened enough to pull a weapon. Let alone if they were beating on you.


I definitely understand this point, but it basically means that the only person who can say their life was in danger was themselves. What rational person wouldn't claim they thought they were in danger of being killed or grievously injured in this kind of situation? It's practically an invitation to commit murder as long as nobody witnessed the event.
 
2012-04-20 12:56:20 PM  

crab66: You are wrong. No one saw who attacked who.


Which means what?
 
2012-04-20 12:56:23 PM  

s2s2s2: Zizzowop: Yes, all my knowledge comes from movies, mostly anyway.

Hey, Cameron. You realize if we played by the rules right now we'd be in gym?

He'll keep calling me, he'll keep calling me until I come over. He'll make me feel guilty. This is uh... This is ridiculous, ok I'll go, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go. What - I'LL GO. shiat.

A: You can never go too far. B: If I'm gonna get busted, it is *not* gonna be by a guy like *that*.

Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.


That movie is a real downer when Ferris gets shot to death while skipping school
 
2012-04-20 12:56:25 PM  

Your Boss: Smeggy Smurf: So when will the First Annual Treyvon Memorial Riots start and how many neighborhoods will they burn down?

Tree!
/ducks and runs...


Maybe Foe.
 
2012-04-20 12:58:53 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: I am having touble understanding why so many white people seem to have such a vested interest in seeing Zimmerman get off.


Reverse OJ Prize Syndrome.
 
2012-04-20 12:59:24 PM  

SpoilerAlert: That movie is a real downer when Ferris gets shot to death while skipping school


He shouldn't have manipulated the city, his friends, stolen a car, stolen a reservation, lied to his family.

Had he just gone to school, Rooney would have never ended up with that broken nose, shredded suit.
 
2012-04-20 12:59:35 PM  

CheatCommando: 9beers: Had the police shown up and not found any evidence to back Zimmerman's story, he would have been arrested on the spot.

Unfortunately for your little justification, the cop on the scene thought there was evidence. He was overruled by the prosecutor and his superiors at the scene, and felt strongly enough about it to swear out an affidavit saying that they were wrong.

But in Third World shiatholes, judge's sons get off scot-free.


Wrong. The cops on the scene didn't have any say so in whether or not he would be charged. Those cops did their job; disarmed and handcuffed Martin, took him to the station and turned him over to the investigators for questioning. Then they wrote their reports of what happened, including cataloging the confiscated pistol, recounting the scene as they arrived, and referencing witness statements, including the infamous "guy in red was on the ground screaming for help with someone on top beating him before I went inside and heard the shot."

It was a single investigator that felt charges were warranted. But see, that's why he is a police investigator and not a prosecutor, because he hasn't gone to law school and passed the bar. It was a prosecutor in the District Attorney's office, whose job it is to actually win cases when charges are brought that said, in effect; "cut him loose, there's no way we can get a conviction."

And give it a rest with this 'Martin's daddy is a judge" crap. He was a municipal magistrate in another state empowered with the great responsibility of accepting payment for traffic fines on Muni court nights.
 
2012-04-20 01:00:15 PM  

The Numbers: Silly Jesus: nopokerface: Scerpes: It's pretty straight forward. The judge will have to make a factual determination and rule on Zimmerman's claim of self defense.

What kind of ruling does the judge make? I suppose it's possible he could say there isn't enough evidence of self defense to allow Zimmerman to present it to the jury as an affirmative defense. I'll bet whatever you want against that ruling happenning. Beyond that, the jury determines whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense.

There is an initial hearing where Zimmerman has to convince the Judge with a preponderance of the evidence (at least 51% chance, in layman terms) that he did indeed act in self defense. If the Judge decides that this was at least 51% likely then we are done. No trial. It's not illegal to act in self-defense.

If the Judge doesn't find that he acted in self-defense, then it goes to trial and it is on the Prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (much higher standard than preponderance of the evidence) that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

Judging by what the prosecution said today, their ability to disprove self-defense seems highly unlikely and I think that based on the admissions of the prosecution today (see below) that the Judge won't even let this get to trial.

From the televised hearing today...

D = Defense / P = Prosecution

D - Do you have any evidence that supports who started the fight? P - No

D - Do you have any evidence in your investigation to date that contradicts or conflicts with his (Zimmerman's) contention that he...
Turned back to his car - P - No
That Martin assaulted first - P - No

P - The shooting was in close proximity. Powder burns were on the sweatshirt. Stippling on Martin to indicate close proximity.

D - Is the evidence inconsistent with Zimmerman saying his head was being hit on the ground? P - No

D - What are the injuries? P - Two lacerations to the back of his head.

D - Could it have been from his head hitting the ground? ...


Yeah, I noticed that too. The investigator looked like he was confused as he was saying it, and it directly contradicts his other testimony.

D - Is the evidence inconsistent with Zimmerman saying his head was being hit on the ground? P - No


I didn't include it because that appeared to me to be a moment of confusion in the questioning.

So, to me, he contradicted himself, and the statements that I posted are more in a context of "we've got nothin'" than his one statement that I took to be a misstatement. I could be wrong.
 
2012-04-20 01:00:20 PM  

Serious Black: I definitely understand this point, but it basically means that the only person who can say their life was in danger was themselves. What rational person wouldn't claim they thought they were in danger of being killed or grievously injured in this kind of situation? It's practically an invitation to commit murder as long as nobody witnessed the event.


How so? If the police show up and Zimmerman isn't bleeding from wounds to his nose and head, he's arrested on the spot. It's like you want there to be some requirement that he take a certain number of punches or his head hits the pavement so many times before lethal force is warranted.
 
2012-04-20 01:01:02 PM  

9beers: crab66: You are wrong. No one saw who attacked who.

Which means what?


Means you cannot just say Zimmerman was the aggressor. The point of our justice system is supposed to be that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a crime was committed. Without being able to show Zimmerman was an aggressor who started a fight, the state is already getting weaker in their case. If Zimmerman gets a fair trial, he is getting off. He can still be convicted because the chances of a fair trial are slim. State has the President and the Justice Department backing as well to convict this guy. They will put whomever that want on the jury.
 
2012-04-20 01:01:15 PM  

topcon: bionicjoe: s2s2s2: factoryconnection: Remember one thing, no matter whose side you're on: if George Zimmerman hadn't shown up, no laws would have been broken, no one would be dead, and George would just be another, anonymous busybody.

That's right, citizens. Take no action in your community toward the reduction of crime, otherwise something bad might happen.

Zimmerman did take action. He saw something suspicious & called the cops.
That what neighborhood WATCH is supposed to do.

Just because he THOUGHT the kid was a criminal & THOUGHT the cops weren't doing enough doesn't mean he can invoke what he THINKS is justice.

Yeah, because that's what happened. You nailed it. He walked over there and said "Durr, I'm gonna shoot this guy because he's criming up our subdivision."


So he didn't think the kid was a criminal and decided to follow him?
Or did he say, "Yep. Cops got this. I'm out"?
 
2012-04-20 01:01:30 PM  

nopokerface: Scerpes: You got an idea of what the judge thinks so far, with the low bail amount.

That is interesting. I do think it's a good idea that people who were clearly acting in self defense can be exonerated without risking the vagaries of the jury system, and decisions like that are what we have judges for (hell, he can have his case heard by a judge even if there is a trial). But, I think it does invite abuse. The case mentioned above sure sounds shaky. Should be interesting to see how it plays out. I bet the judge has reservations about having the entire resolution of this sh*t storm resting on his weary brow.


If course it does - he's an elected official.
 
2012-04-20 01:02:13 PM  

s2s2s2: SpoilerAlert: That movie is a real downer when Ferris gets shot to death while skipping school

He shouldn't have manipulated the city, his friends, stolen a car, stolen a reservation, lied to his family.

Had he just gone to school, Rooney would have never ended up with that broken nose, shredded suit.


Rooney had been waiting for that day for a long time, so it all worked out for him.
 
2012-04-20 01:02:30 PM  

factoryconnection:
Anyone see the "graphic" image of his head wound from the night he killed Trayvon Martin? My kids get worse wounds from stumbling on the sidewalk... but it is yet another layer to the story being best judged in a formal trial.


ORLY?

While that picture doesn't appear to show a life threatening wound by any stretch, it's more than the "boo-boo" you're making it out to be. I'd like to think that the LEOs decided to use something a little better quality than (what appears to be) a camera photo, which would also hopefully show more of the bruising from the impact (i.e., how forceful the injury occurred).

I think that if I had an injury like that on me from a physical altercation, that the "survive at all costs / run away like a gazelle" part of my brain would probably kick in.

The comment regarding some of the evidence relating to the GSR and stippling was also interesting. Goes against a lot of the statements from supporters of both camps.

Doesn't mean he's not guilty, but also lends more credence to Zimmerman's statements (the prosecution's investigator also assisted in that, based on the quality of his tesimony and the defense's offering of medical records; points to the defense for effective showmanship there).
 
2012-04-20 01:03:17 PM  
Well, there goes the prosecution case. It was a hail mary anyway, but the bloody head pretty much nails the case shut.

From all appearances one story is consistent, and that's Zimmerman's.

I'd still go for a bench trial - you never know what a jury's going to do, especially in Florida. If it wasn't so political the case would already be gone.
 
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