First they came for the pathetic ultra-lefti social activist groups and I said meh...

fta: Mixmaster aims to provide protection for ordinary people who want to follow the law. Only criminals have privacy right now, and we need to fix that.

Does anyone else feel that the NRA, if there is any sincerity in their arguments, really ought to join the effort to protect First and Fourth amendment rights?

hudef: First they came for the pathetic ultra-lefti social activist groups and I said meh...

I agree. The FBI should focus their surveillance efforts on people within our borders who are not citizens: visiting Irishmen, Indian nationals, Canadians, Mexicans. Purportedly, there are French-Canadians who are not even particularly loyal to Canada. They certainly can not be trusted to be loyal to a host country. As a precaution, they should be watched very, very closely.

If only Stalin knew!

Lunaville: fta: Mixmaster aims to provide protection for ordinary people who want to follow the law. Only criminals have privacy right now, and we need to fix that.

Does anyone else feel that the NRA, if there is any sincerity in their arguments, really ought to join the effort to protect First and Fourth amendment rights?

Yes. Please god yes.

The wost thing the government can do to themselves is force those with a need with those with the means. Mix the "educated" (net nerds, occupy, etc) with the armed, and the revolution begins.

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: But someone used the internets to email a bomb threat. SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!

Why do we give a fark about bomb threats again?

Lunaville: fta: Mixmaster aims to provide protection for ordinary people who want to follow the law. Only criminals have privacy right now, and we need to fix that.

Does anyone else feel that the NRA, if there is any sincerity in their arguments, really ought to join the effort to protect First and Fourth amendment rights?

While they occasionally stray, the NRA is supposed to be a single issue (2nd Amendment) non-profit. Though they have teamed up with the ACLU from time to time, and the ACLU is supposed to be a multiple issue ("to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties that the Constitution and laws of the United States guarantee") non-profit.

That said, I'm a card-carrying member of both. Contrary to popular opinion, the NRA membership is not a monolithic group. There's a few of us liberals in there too.

cman: Hope and Change, amiright?

Sadly, yes.

He's done great things on many fronts, but has continued the awful war on citizen liberties begun by GWB.

Better by far than the alternative party, which would happily reduce or eliminate other freedoms as well, but far from hopeful, overall.

LasersHurt: Guys not to be a party-pooper, but like... The server is part of an investigation into criminal activity. While it sucks they had to take the whole server, that's life. Maybe the server admins should have had backups?

I guess what I'm saying is not everything has to be reduced to an nth-degree civil liberties showdown between the Freetown Freesters and the Fascistville Dreamcrushers.

Yeah, but what criminal activity?

LasersHurt: Guys not to be a party-pooper, but like... The server is part of an investigation into criminal activity. While it sucks they had to take the whole server, that's life. Maybe the server admins should have had backups?

I guess what I'm saying is not everything has to be reduced to an nth-degree civil liberties showdown between the Freetown Freesters and the Fascistville Dreamcrushers.

That was acceptable back when trials were relatively timely. I can't afford to have my stuff seized for years on just an investigation.

If I go without working for even a few weeks, I'll be lucky if I don't become homeless. Sure I could pay the rent for a couple months, but with all the student loans and other mandatory expenditures, I'd be financially crippled by the time it was over. If I got my stuff back, it would be pointless because I'd be selling it to recover my lost income.

Lunaville: hudef: First they came for the pathetic ultra-lefti social activist groups and I said meh...

I agree. The FBI should focus their surveillance efforts on people within our borders who are not citizens: visiting Irishmen, Indian nationals, Canadians, Mexicans. Purportedly, there are French-Canadians who are not even particularly loyal to Canada. They certainly can not be trusted to be loyal to a host country. As a precaution, they should be watched very, very closely.

As a canadian living in the states, I only ask that you let me know when I'm being watched. That way I can shower and shave for the camera.

/Need to look my best for the surveillance team.

lewismarktwo: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: But someone used the internets to email a bomb threat. SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!

Why do we give a fark about bomb threats again?

Because there have been upwards of 80 bomb threats at the University of Pittsburgh that have disrupted classes and exams, caused as many building evacuations, and forced students out of their dorms into freezing weather at 3am? Because it's costing the university thousands and thousands of dollars, costing professors prep time and students class time (that they are also paying thousands of dollars for)?

Just saying.

Oh wait, make that more than 100.

violetvolume: lewismarktwo: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: But someone used the internets to email a bomb threat. SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!

Why do we give a fark about bomb threats again?

Because there have been upwards of 80 bomb threats at the University of Pittsburgh that have disrupted classes and exams, caused as many building evacuations, and forced students out of their dorms into freezing weather at 3am? Because it's costing the university thousands and thousands of dollars, costing professors prep time and students class time (that they are also paying thousands of dollars for)?

Just saying.

So they can't just copy the server data? This just sounds like the government is using a back door method of shutting down a business.

Marcus Aurelius: This is a great way to drive hosting businesses overseas.

Even that doesn't seem to matter any more if the shuttering of a few recent dotcoms is anything to go by.

lewismarktwo: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: But someone used the internets to email a bomb threat. SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!

Why do we give a fark about bomb threats again?

I wonder how often bomb threats actually lead cops to finding and disarming an active bomb.

LasersHurt: kim jong-un: LasersHurt: Guys not to be a party-pooper, but like... The server is part of an investigation into criminal activity. While it sucks they had to take the whole server, that's life. Maybe the server admins should have had backups?

I guess what I'm saying is not everything has to be reduced to an nth-degree civil liberties showdown between the Freetown Freesters and the Fascistville Dreamcrushers.

That was acceptable back when trials were relatively timely. I can't afford to have my stuff seized for years on just an investigation.

If I go without working for even a few weeks, I'll be lucky if I don't become homeless. Sure I could pay the rent for a couple months, but with all the student loans and other mandatory expenditures, I'd be financially crippled by the time it was over. If I got my stuff back, it would be pointless because I'd be selling it to recover my lost income.

Then run backups for your critical work.

What's to stop them from taking your backup stuff?

/out of the business

kim jong-un: LasersHurt: Guys not to be a party-pooper, but like... The server is part of an investigation into criminal activity. While it sucks they had to take the whole server, that's life. Maybe the server admins should have had backups?

I guess what I'm saying is not everything has to be reduced to an nth-degree civil liberties showdown between the Freetown Freesters and the Fascistville Dreamcrushers.

That was acceptable back when trials were relatively timely. I can't afford to have my stuff seized for years on just an investigation.

If I go without working for even a few weeks, I'll be lucky if I don't become homeless. Sure I could pay the rent for a couple months, but with all the student loans and other mandatory expenditures, I'd be financially crippled by the time it was over. If I got my stuff back, it would be pointless because I'd be selling it to recover my lost income.

That's the whole point of asset forfeiture. If it ever reaches SCOTUS, the government will argue that it doesn't count as a violation of citizens' right to due process and protection from excessive fines because it's a civil matter and not a criminal matter -- and I'd be willing to bet that it would be upheld.

/not to mention that the only way you'd get your stuff back is if you found the person or people who got it at the police auction, or purchased it there yourself
//plus, due to the War On Some Drugs, the cops can pull you over not obeying both of a pair of mutually exclusive traffic laws (like not dropping your speed from 45MPH or faster to 30MPH or slower over a distances of two inches as you exit a highway), claim there's a non-zero chance you've got cannabis seeds on the floor in the back seat, seize your car right then and there at that traffic stop....
///....and then send you on your way as if they never stopped you in the first place (less one car) without arresting, detaining or even ticketing you (at least until they give you a $150 ticket for loitering right after you call a cab or a friend to pick you up from where the cops stole your car)

This, coupled with Megaupload amongst other things, is why Australia is in the middle of a big push to onshore all their data, especially "cloud" apps and data.

Of course, this pisses off the Mighty United States^™ and WILL NOT BE TOLERATED! A strongly worded letter has been sent.

LasersHurt: Part of the reasoning for this is in case they need to recover deleted data, in which case they need the physical drives.

Drives can be mirrored, deleted data and all with several programs.

LasersHurt: BraveNewCheneyWorld: LasersHurt: Part of the reasoning for this is in case they need to recover deleted data, in which case they need the physical drives.

Drives can be mirrored, deleted data and all with several programs.

I'm not saying it's technically impossible for law enforcement to get data from a server without moving it, but I am saying that's simply not how it's done. They take the server. And I am saying taking that server is not silencing peoples' civil liberties, it's just an inconvenient part of how evidence is collected when it comes to computers.

I have an especially big problem with a 3rd party being affected like this. I think all lost revenue should come directly from the budged of the investigating agency. Nobody in this country should lose a revenue stream because someone else is being investigated. It seems like a 5th amendment violation to me, the owner has no due process, do they? They're not compensated, are they? And their property is essentially being seized, even if only temporarily, for public use.

LasersHurt: StoPPeRmobile: LasersHurt: kim jong-un: LasersHurt: Guys not to be a party-pooper, but like... The server is part of an investigation into criminal activity. While it sucks they had to take the whole server, that's life. Maybe the server admins should have had backups?

I guess what I'm saying is not everything has to be reduced to an nth-degree civil liberties showdown between the Freetown Freesters and the Fascistville Dreamcrushers.

That was acceptable back when trials were relatively timely. I can't afford to have my stuff seized for years on just an investigation.

If I go without working for even a few weeks, I'll be lucky if I don't become homeless. Sure I could pay the rent for a couple months, but with all the student loans and other mandatory expenditures, I'd be financially crippled by the time it was over. If I got my stuff back, it would be pointless because I'd be selling it to recover my lost income.

Then run backups for your critical work.

What's to stop them from taking your backup stuff?

/out of the business

Depends on whether that's pertinent to the case. I understand it's somewhat possible to go totally out of business because of someone seizing your shiat. It's just not very likely, unless your entire business is built on shady shiat and poor data safety techniques.

It's only going to get worse.

The problem is potential customers know there is risk now.

/not missing it

LemSkroob: The wost thing the government can do to themselves is force those with a need with those with the means. Mix the "educated" (net nerds, occupy, etc) with the armed, and the revolution begins.

Nobody's stopping nerds and hippies from buying guns.
(Although in this political climate, I bet the purchase of firearms plus lots of anonymous internet activity send up enough red flags to warrant a visit by the local SWAT team.)

KierzanDax: This, coupled with Megaupload amongst other things, is why Australia is in the middle of a big push to onshore all their data, especially "cloud" apps and data.

Of course, this pisses off the Mighty United States™ and WILL NOT BE TOLERATED! A strongly worded letter has been sent.

That's outrageous! How dare Australia on-shore Australian data?

As an employee (and alumnus) of the University of Pittsburgh, I'm getting a real kick...

137 bomb threats, vast majority via anonymous email, almost all of them producing evacuations (many of them dorms in the middle of the night), and no traces of any actual bombs. I think a lot of students want to stop treating them as "credible", and stop evacuating, but parents will scream bloody murder if they do. And I have to think there's some insurance involved that would be problematic.

Bottom line for those servers is, they likely have evidence of a serious federal crime. As much as it sucks, there's not much alternative here. But really, it's just a server. If they can't manage to get another one up, and restore what was on the seized one from a backups, that business has bigger problems than the FBI.

4of11: As an employee (and alumnus) of the University of Pittsburgh, I'm getting a real kick...

137 bomb threats, vast majority via anonymous email, almost all of them producing evacuations (many of them dorms in the middle of the night), and no traces of any actual bombs. I think a lot of students want to stop treating them as "credible", and stop evacuating, but parents will scream bloody murder if they do. And I have to think there's some insurance involved that would be problematic.

Bottom line for those servers is, they likely have evidence of a serious federal crime. As much as it sucks, there's not much alternative here. But really, it's just a server. If they can't manage to get another one up, and restore what was on the seized one from a backups, that business has bigger problems than the FBI.

The FBI purportedly seized the server because it was hosting an anonymous remailer called Mixmaster. Anonymous remailers are used to send email anonymously, or pseudonymously. Like other anonymizing services such as the Tor network, these remailers are widely used to protect the identity of human rights activists who place themselves and their families in grave danger by reporting information about abuses. Remailers are also important for corporate whistle blowers, democracy activists working under repressive regimes, and others to communicate vital information that would otherwise go un-reported.

Your attitude would be flippant enough if only economic livelihoods were at stake. Apparently, there might be more at stake here than some business data.

irishjihad: , the NRA is supposed to be a single issue (2nd Amendment) non-profit

It may have been at one point, but today it's the mouthpiece for firearms manufacturers as a tool to drive sales, not defend personal rights.

The NRA should also fight to defend encryption, while they're at it. It was classified as a munition for decades.

Broom: cman: Hope and Change, amiright?

Sadly, yes.

He's done great things on many fronts, but has continued the awful war on citizen liberties begun by GWB.

Better by far than the alternative party, which would happily reduce or eliminate other freedoms as well, but far from hopeful, overall.

Keep telling yourself that. As horrible as Bush was, Obama has been equally as bad if not worse in this aspect.

syrynxx: Both championed by the NRA.

The NRA championed DC v. Heller? Was that before or after they tried to torpedo that case so their pet case could advance? They certainly took advantage of it in Chicago and SF, but let's be frank- 90% of what the NRA is doing right now is to handle marketing on behalf of firearms manufacturers, hence their efforts to drive purchases through "Gummit's taking ur guns!" hysteria.

4of11: Bottom line for those servers is, they likely have evidence of a serious federal crime.

Considering the nature of Mixmaster remailers (i.e. they're designed specifically to not retain evidence) it's unlikely they'll garner any sort of useful information from them.

Even if there was evidence, it'd probably point to an anonymous overseas Tor exit node...good luck tracing that.

Broom
>>> cman: Hope and Change, amiright?

Sadly, yes.

He's done great things on many fronts
hahaha... oh you were serious? Let me laugh harder.

keepitcherry: Broom: cman: Hope and Change, amiright?

Sadly, yes.

He's done great things on many fronts, but has continued the awful war on citizen liberties begun by GWB.

Better by far than the alternative party, which would happily reduce or eliminate other freedoms as well, but far from hopeful, overall.

Keep telling yourself that. As horrible as Bush was, Obama has been equally as bad if not worse in this aspect.

You fail at reading comprehension. I didn't say Obama was better than Bush.

4of11: Bottom line for those servers is, they likely have evidence of a serious federal crime. As much as it sucks, there's not much alternative here. But really, it's just a server. If they can't manage to get another one up, and restore what was on the seized one from a backups, that business has bigger problems than the FBI.

That's a justification for taking the property of a person who did not commit a crime, with no remuneration? The alternative is that the government could provide replacements for everything they're taking, and I think that's more than reasonable.