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(Washington Post)   Gaza residents disenchanted after finding Hamas is better at launching rockets than running a government   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 164
    More: Obvious, Gaza, Hamas, palestinian militants, smuggling tunnels, Gazans, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, Fatah, military officials  
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5802 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Apr 2012 at 12:39 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-19 03:48:50 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I can't say that I fully understand the Israeli/Palastinian situation, but does it boil down to about this:

- The land was originally inhabited by the Jewish people in ancient time
- Ancient Arabs/Egyptians kicked the Jewish people off of the land
- In the 40s a small portion of what was then a Muslim country was set aside for the Jewish People as Israel
- The Israeli people wanted to expand to control the land they feel as their birthright, and have done so as they feel the Arabs/Muslims are occupiers who have no claim to the Holy Land
- The Muslim people who have lived in what is now Israel/Palastine for most of modern history don't like that.

Am I missing something here?


Very much so.

- Israel was content with their portion of land. They never attempted any kind of expansion whatsoever.
- Israel was attacked by multiple neighboring countries the day after they declared independence. They were attacked again in several major wars within the next 30 years.
- Israel annexed land in these wars by pushing back against the attacks, thus creating the 1945 and 1967 borders, which are the subject of so much negotiations today. War has been historically acceptable means of expansion, however, Israel started neither of the major wars that ended in annexed land.
- Israel gave back the majority of the land they annexed. This is extremely rare historically.

The land in dispute right now is part of Israel annexed territory it won in a battle it did not start. It has been trying to give this land back in exchange for security (no more suicide bombers and daily rocket attacks), but negotiations have gone nowhere.

Why? Well, that's up to speculation, but I think a great deal of evidence shows that Hamas wants this war to continue forever, Fatah sorta wants the peace, but have no real power over Gaza since they were exiled/assassinated by Hamas, and Israel just wants a land swap and the right to exist.

You can counter me on any of my speculation, as is your right,
but if any of you plan on countering the non-speculation stuff above it, please provide your citations. Wikipedia is a good place to start.
If you link to PLO propaganda websites and you-tube videos, I will not respond to your comment.
 
2012-04-19 03:52:26 PM

xxysyndrome: I made an allusion to Israel's ethnic cleansing in general.


Talk specifics. Where are people being ethnically cleansed?


xxysyndrome: And again, you seem to conflate the term "ethnic cleansing" with "genocide" or some other direct population reduction mechanism. They are not the same.


You made the claim about Ethnic cleansing in a thread about Gaza. The fact that the population in Gaza is growing proves there is no ethnic cleansing there.

As far as conflating the terms you are the one who brought up the Warsaw ghetto.

As far as not understanding the term you still don't seem to get it or you wouldn't be so hell bent on denying that jews were ethnically cleansed from Gaza.

xxysyndrome: /And I'm the "dumbfark" here


Yes you are. See above for details.
 
2012-04-19 04:00:08 PM

xxysyndrome: joshik72: xxysyndrome: Tatsuma: xxysyndrome: And still no citation, from even the most Israel-friendly source.

Check on CIA factbook. Or even wikipedia for that matter.

It's your chart. It's not unreasonable to provide a citation for numbers graphed in a chart - in fact it's downright expected. Except maybe not for propagandists.

Like the green map! Too cookie!

That's a 'map', not a 'chart'. And I didn't post it anyway.

Y'know, redirecting the conversation to minutiae about others' maps isn't going to make the horror of Israel's occupation, ethnic cleansing and general belligerence go away.


wow dude. you suck at debating.

what's the deal anyway?
 
2012-04-19 04:00:26 PM

liam76: Talk specifics. Where are people being ethnically cleansed?


Arabs. Palestinians. From Israel-occupied lands. By the droves. For decades. And you know it.

liam76: You made the claim about Ethnic cleansing in a thread about Gaza.


And yet again, your inability to understand what I've written in context is your reading comprehension problem, not mine.

liam76: you wouldn't be so hell bent on denying that jews were ethnically cleansed from Gaza


lol you are a shiatty troll.

liam76: See above for details.


The Jews I've known through the years have generally been better-educated than you.
 
2012-04-19 04:02:16 PM

Protricity: wow dude. you suck at debating.


Posted without a trace of irony :/
 
2012-04-19 04:12:07 PM

xxysyndrome: liam76: Talk specifics. Where are people being ethnically cleansed?

Arabs. Palestinians. From Israel-occupied lands. By the droves. For decades. And you know it.


So you can't point to a specific place, can't point to a specific time, yet I am tot ake yoru word for it?

They were cleansed from parts of Israel in 1948 (which I conceded way up thread). Since then they have been growing in all of Israel, in gaza and the West bank. When a population of peopel is growing in a geographic location (in both sheer numbers and percent of population) you can;t with a straight face they are suffering from ethnic cleansing. Well you can if you are a complete farking moron or have with negative lies abotu Israel.

xxysyndrome: liam76: you wouldn't be so hell bent on denying that jews were ethnically cleansed from Gaza

lol you are a shiatty troll.


There were jews in Gaza. There are now no jews in Gaza. Yet you won't say they were ethnically cleansed.

In Israel, Gaza and the West bank the poprortion and raw number of arabs is grwoing, yet they are being ethnically cleansed.

You are a farking moron with no idea what is going on, or you have som special hatred for Israel that makes you fine lying aboutt hem. I wonder why that is.

xxysyndrome: The Jews I've known through the years have generally been better-educated than you


I am an atheist. I was brought up catholic.

And a negative comment about education about someoen ass dumb/dishonest as you is taken as a compliment.
 
2012-04-19 04:13:30 PM

xxysyndrome: The Jews I've known through the years have generally been better-educated than you.


See what I mean about the racism?
 
2012-04-19 04:24:44 PM

liam76: yet I am tot ake yoru word for it?


actually, come to think of it, I don't give a crap what you take from it.

free hint: try spellcheck sometime
 
2012-04-19 04:25:47 PM
taking the first line and avoiding all the points that prove you wrong

well that was a massive waste of time
 
2012-04-19 04:27:40 PM

xxysyndrome: liam76: yet I am tot ake yoru word for it?

actually, come to think of it, I don't give a crap what you take from it.

free hint: try spellcheck sometime


Grammar nazi?

Can't say it surprises me given your stances in this thread.
 
2012-04-19 04:28:05 PM

Tatsuma: xxysyndrome: The Jews I've known through the years have generally been better-educated than you.

See what I mean about the racism?


My perception of Jews is that they tend to be well-educated, so therefore I'm racist. Got it.

Are you some kind of false-flag Zionist, working to drive up hatred for Israel? Good job, I guess.
 
2012-04-19 04:31:09 PM
You two schmuck-suckers go ahead and keep fellating each other. It will truly be a sad day when belligerent Israel gets its comeuppance and dies by the sword, but knowing that you two are upset or dead will give me some condolence.
 
2012-04-19 04:34:17 PM

xxysyndrome: My perception of Jews is that they tend to be well-educated, so therefore I'm racist. Got it.

Are you some kind of false-flag Zionist, working to drive up hatred for Israel? Good job, I guess.


No, as you said earlier, you believe that all Jews care about is other Jews. And you also showed even more of your racist side by just assuming that Liam is in fact Jewish, then propagating another stereotype about Jews.

And now you spout off about 'false-flag zionists' and in the very next post, you cheer the death of two people you have never met, and you fantasize about the destruction of Israel.

You have got real issues. Go outside, goosestep your way into a forest, then reflect on your life.
 
2012-04-19 04:45:55 PM

Tatsuma: you believe that all Jews care about is other Jews


I said it was a sad cliche that you reinforce, not anything I personally believe



Tatsuma
:
propagating another stereotype


"well-educated". okay

Tatsuma: assuming that Liam is in fact Jewish


never asserted that in the least

Tatsuma: you fantasize about the destruction of Israel


I would call it lamenting, really.

Tatsuma: you cheer the death of two people you have never met


you might have me on that one


My life is just fine. Maybe it's because I'm not beholden to a worldview that requires the dehumanization of whole ethnic populations, or requires a paranoid state of permanent war to justify my or my people's bellicose ways. This is of course a silly argument - Israel has long established in its belief of might makes right (something something about Chosen People and Yahweh) and conducted itself accordingly. Don't expect a flood of tears of sympathy when the tables are turned someday in the future.
 
2012-04-19 04:51:28 PM

xxysyndrome: I said it was a sad cliche that you reinforce, not anything I personally believe


Well this is definitely what you believe, as you immediately thought that Liam was Jewish

xxysyndrome: never asserted that in the least


then again you're just a shameless liar, aren't you?

xxysyndrome: Maybe it's because I'm not beholden to a worldview that requires the dehumanization of whole ethnic populations


Except its Israel and Jews, you know, where we are a single-minded machine of Nazi proportions who only care about ourselves.

Oh and your worldview is so messed up and prone to dehumanization that you gleefully declare that you would love it if two strangers died horrible horrible deaths based on having different opinions.

this is far from normal.

xxysyndrome: Israel has long established in its belief of might makes right (something something about Chosen People


again with the anti-semitic thing

xxysyndrome: Don't expect a flood of tears of sympathy when the tables are turned someday in the future.


and fantasizing again (with a good helping of 'next time a holocaust comes around, you brought it on yourself you farking kike)
 
2012-04-19 04:53:44 PM

Tatsuma: you farking kike


racist scum
 
2012-04-19 04:55:13 PM

xxysyndrome: racist scum


yes, that was my point by cleverly formatting that post like you would be saying something then censoring yourself, realizing that you shouldn't air out your inner thoughts

I am glad you got my point across.
 
2012-04-19 04:57:19 PM

Tatsuma: my point by cleverly formatting that post like you would be saying something


you just live to put words in people's mouths, don't you?

Tatsuma: I am glad you got my point across.


yep.
 
2012-04-19 04:59:22 PM

xxysyndrome: you just live to put words in people's mouths, don't you?


if you answered all of these rebuttals where we show you are wrong, we would not have to assume anything.

And you have shown deep anti-semitic prejudices all over this thread.
 
2012-04-19 05:03:07 PM

Tatsuma: xxysyndrome: you just live to put words in people's mouths, don't you?

if you answered all of these rebuttals where we show you are wrong, we would not have to assume anything.

And you have shown deep anti-semitic prejudices all over this thread.


The rebuttals to the straw men you dreamt up in the first place are your problem.

And as far as I can tell, any criticism of Israel or use of the words "Jew" or "Jewish" in any context is anti-semitic to you. Oh wait - deeply anti-semitic. Tedious.
 
2012-04-19 05:05:37 PM

xxysyndrome: Protricity: wow dude. you suck at debating.

Posted without a trace of irony :/


Lets just say this last page of debate didn't help your case.

You really, really, suck at debating.
 
2012-04-19 05:09:07 PM

Protricity: xxysyndrome: Protricity: wow dude. you suck at debating.

Posted without a trace of irony :/

Lets just say this last page of debate didn't help your case.

You really, really, suck at debating.


You're just putting me on, now, aren't you? ;)

/hilarious
 
2012-04-19 05:12:52 PM
now that's just sad. i'm done
 
2012-04-19 05:16:43 PM

liam76: Uncle Tractor: liam76: The only peopel who have been "ethnically cleansed" from Gaza are jews, you dumb fark. The population of Palestenians is growing.

I see you're you dumb / dishonest to tell the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide. Yeah, the population is increasing, but the amount of land available to them is shrinking due to ethnic cleansing.

What area in Gaza is being ethnically cleansed of Palestenians?


Whups. My bad. The argument is usually made about Palestine in general.

BTW: Does this mean you agree that the palestinians are being cleansed from the WB?

If you read anything about Israel not from stormfront

i560.photobucket.com

Well, it's the level of dishonesty I've come to expect from you.

there is a huge sign showing you it is garbage. It has the Sea of Galilee as land. A map of land ownership that can't even take the time to figure out what is land and what is water should be ignored by anyone with a shred fo intellegence.

Yeah, they got one little dot wrong. BFD. Besides: Who controlled that little dot back then? Who controls it now? Land or water, it doesn't really matter.

If that isn't enough, please read more.

"More" means the usual obfuscation through mixing terms like land ownership, political control, and the usual terra nullius argument. Your link is meaningless.

Please explain to me the logic behind that claim. It certanily isn't called "arab" or "jewish" based upon who lived there because the largely uninhabiated Negev desert is labeled as Arab. You telling me people "lived" in the Sea of Galilee?

Obfuscation again. Who lived around it? Who fished in it?

Very interesting definiton of ownership. If I rent my house to someoen then sell it, do the tenents "own" it? Because this the theory of ownership you are claiming (and it still doesn't make the map correct).

Again you're mixing terms. I'm talking about who lived there: Arabs. They lived there for centuries. Therefore it was their land. It doesn't matter that they sent their taxes and their rent to a new address every decade. They were the ones who lived there. It was theirs. Everything else is just typical hasbarah BS.

Your map makes sense if the only land jews own is land where they are 100% of the population and any empty or mixed land s owned by arabs. That about right? You really think that makes a justifiable claim of ownership?

Now you're just being silly.

The UN bid comes from Abbas and the PA, on the WB. The rockets come (mostly) from Gaza and Hamas

They didn't want Gaza to be included as part fo the new Palestenain entity? That is news to me, but I could be misremember it.


You are aware that Gaza and the WB are run by different people, right? Perhaps not.
 
2012-04-19 05:20:09 PM

Tatsuma: now that's just sad. i'm done


WHAR REBUTTAL WHAR
 
2012-04-19 05:20:47 PM
the problem doesn't lie with hamas. the problem lies with the israeli fascists who have had gaza under siege for the last 5 years. but go ahead and believe your BS pro-israel wapo hit piece. It seems like if anyone had figured out that keeping people in concentration camps wasn't cool, it would be israelis. but i guess when you steal other peoples' land and claim it as your own, your moral compass is a bit skewed anyway.
 
2012-04-19 05:37:43 PM
All this talk of racism. Wake me up when a non-jewish newspaper runs a piece like the Atlanta Jewish Chronicle did, about how Jews should not intermarry, to preserve the purity of the race.

Who knew there would be problems with a bunch of people trying to live according to a 3000 year old book written by racist pedophiles?
 
2012-04-19 06:04:40 PM

xxysyndrome: Maybe it's because I'm not beholden to a worldview that requires the dehumanization of whole ethnic populations


Then how do you explain saying jews being kicked out of Gaza isn't Ethnic cleansing, and the number of Arabs in Israel, Gaza and the WB growing as Ethnic cleansing.

Uncle Tractor: BTW: Does this mean you agree that the palestinians are being cleansed from the WB?


There are more jews moving there, however I have never seen anything showing that the proportion of Jews to Arabs is increasing.


Uncle Tractor: Well, it's the level of dishonesty I've come to expect from you.


You are swearing by a map that mislabeled a major body of water as land.

If you read anything about Israel from non-biased hate sites this would pop right out at you.

Uncle Tractor: Yeah, they got one little dot wrong. BFD. Besides: Who controlled that little dot back then? Who controls it now? Land or water, it doesn't really matter.


It is a map showing who controls what land, if they don't even know where the land is and you don't have a problem with it you aren't concerned with truth.

As far as a "dot"it is half the size of Gaza.

Who controlled it then? British.

Uncle Tractor: Again you're mixing terms. I'm talking about who lived there: Arabs. They lived there for centuries. Therefore it was their land. It doesn't matter that they sent their taxes and their rent to a new address every decade. They were the ones who lived there. It was theirs. Everything else is just typical hasbarah BS.


They lived in the lake? They lived in the empty desert? No they didn't.

As far as centuries, try again. You seem to be laboring under the illusion (and I am pretty sure I have pointed this out to you before) that there were no arab immigrants to what is now Israel prior to 48. When those evil jews moved in they brought technology, modern farming, etc. Basically they drug the place out of the stone ages and gave it an economy decades (if not centuries) ahead of the surrounding areas.

And I am not mixing up terms. You are stating here that living somewhere grants ownership if that doesn't apply to a rented house, you have a double standard.

Uncle Tractor: Now you're just being silly.


No I am pointing out how stupid the map you swear by is. A sea is land, and it along with an uninhabited desert was owned by arabs because they lived there.

There is nothing silly about pointing out how stupid your map is and how dishonest you must be to keep posting it while having no idea where the data came from. How many jews per square mile did they need to make those white area "jewish"? How many arab per square mile made land "arab"?



Uncle Tractor: You are aware that Gaza and the WB are run by different people, right? Perhaps not


Yes, but if the entry to statehood was for both places then you can't ignore the actions in Gaza. Well with you, perhaps not. Whatever makes Israel look bad right?

At the end of the day you are swearing by a map that you can't explain (the basis for what qualified a piece of land as arab or jewish), a map that doesn't even recognize the farking sea of Galilee, you are lying about all arabs being there for centuries, you are ignoring jews that had been there for centuries, an dyou move back and forth to combine or separate Gaza and the WB when it suites you.

Nobody who spend this much time talking about Israel can be that dumb.
 
2012-04-19 06:20:46 PM

liam76: xxysyndrome: Maybe it's because I'm not beholden to a worldview that requires the dehumanization of whole ethnic populations

Then how do you explain saying jews being kicked out of Gaza isn't Ethnic cleansing, and the number of Arabs in Israel, Gaza and the WB growing as Ethnic cleansing.

Uncle Tractor: BTW: Does this mean you agree that the palestinians are being cleansed from the WB?

There are more jews moving there, however I have never seen anything showing that the proportion of Jews to Arabs is increasing.


Uncle Tractor: Well, it's the level of dishonesty I've come to expect from you.

You are swearing by a map that mislabeled a major body of water as land.

If you read anything about Israel from non-biased hate sites this would pop right out at you.

Uncle Tractor: Yeah, they got one little dot wrong. BFD. Besides: Who controlled that little dot back then? Who controls it now? Land or water, it doesn't really matter.

It is a map showing who controls what land, if they don't even know where the land is and you don't have a problem with it you aren't concerned with truth.

As far as a "dot"it is half the size of Gaza.

Who controlled it then? British.

Uncle Tractor: Again you're mixing terms. I'm talking about who lived there: Arabs. They lived there for centuries. Therefore it was their land. It doesn't matter that they sent their taxes and their rent to a new address every decade. They were the ones who lived there. It was theirs. Everything else is just typical hasbarah BS.

They lived in the lake? They lived in the empty desert? No they didn't.

As far as centuries, try again. You seem to be laboring under the illusion (and I am pretty sure I have pointed this out to you before) that there were no arab immigrants to what is now Israel prior to 48. When those evil jews moved in they brought technology, modern farming, etc. Basically they drug the place out of the stone ages and gave it an economy decades (if not centuries) ahead of the surroundi ...




Grandma told me, "When somebody uses a whole bunch of words to say nothing, they're full of it."

/Thanks Grandma, for helping me spot lian76
 
2012-04-19 06:23:56 PM
These people make it really really really hard for me to feel sorry for them...

/Go Israel
 
2012-04-19 06:33:46 PM
ObscureNameHere I still think opening a "Gentlemen's Club" called "The Gaza Strip" featuring mid-east hotties would be gold.
You should read Carl Hiaasen's "Strip Tease"
/ In my humble opinion there will be peace in the middle east. Unfortunately for that to happen the world economy needs to really improve.
//nothing else to add
 
2012-04-19 06:49:17 PM
To be fair, so is the Republican party.
 
2012-04-19 07:55:43 PM

Captain_Ballbeard: All this talk of racism. Wake me up when a non-jewish newspaper runs a piece like the Atlanta Jewish Chronicle did, about how Jews should not intermarry, to preserve the purity of the race.

Who knew there would be problems with a bunch of people trying to live according to a 3000 year old book written by racist pedophiles?


Shot and miss. Gotta work on your aim kid.
 
2012-04-19 09:47:57 PM
xxysyndrome

It will truly be a sad day when belligerent Israel gets its comeuppance and dies by the sword...

Well, yeah. It will be. Millions of people will die. Once it becomes clear the Israelis are going to be pushed into the sea, they'll go out like a nuclear Shimshon. That's bad enough.

THEN I have to endure the smug, whiny voices of great aunts calling to say "I told you so! The Israelis are crazy! Why do you think we live in Germany?"

Think about that for a second. Jews in freaking Deutschland, because they think it's safer than Israel.

/Israel is doomed
//if the Arabs ever get their shiat together
 
2012-04-20 12:07:30 AM

xxysyndrome: My perception of Jews is that they tend to be well-educated, so therefore I'm racist. Got it.


Saying all Chinese are good at math, or that all black people are fast runners isn't racist either, amiright?
 
2012-04-20 12:28:07 AM
Is this the thread where a bunch of people spout inane bullshiat I feel dumber for reading, then claim victory when nobody knows how to address their claim water is dry?
 
2012-04-20 12:36:25 AM

muck4doo: xxysyndrome: My perception of Jews is that they tend to be well-educated, so therefore I'm racist. Got it.

Saying all Chinese are good at math, or that all black people are fast runners isn't racist either, amiright?


Jesus Tits man, how do you fit the stupid into the car with you?

"good at math" implies an inborn trait. Education is the result of work. wtf?

You're one of "them", aren't you?
 
2012-04-20 06:01:15 AM

liam76: Uncle Tractor: BTW: Does this mean you agree that the palestinians are being cleansed from the WB?

There are more jews moving there, however I have never seen anything showing that the proportion of Jews to Arabs is increasing.


The only thing that matters is that the amount of land available to the arabs of the WB is shrinking. That's the ethnic cleansing. Everything else is hasbara BS.

Uncle Tractor: Well, it's the level of dishonesty I've come to expect from you.

You are swearing by a map that mislabeled a major body of water as land.


The Sea of Galilee is not a major body of water. It's a large puddle. A minor detail on the map of Israel.

It is a map showing who controls what land, if they don't even know where the land is and you don't have a problem with it you aren't concerned with truth.

Derailing a discussion by focusing on irrelevant details is a typical hasbara tactic. It's what you're doing now. It often appears when the "shut them up by yelling anti-semite" tactic fails (we've already been through that).

Uncle Tractor: Again you're mixing terms. I'm talking about who lived there: Arabs. They lived there for centuries. Therefore it was their land. It doesn't matter that they sent their taxes and their rent to a new address every decade. They were the ones who lived there. It was theirs. Everything else is just typical hasbarah BS.

They lived in the lake?


...and again with the derailing through details tactic. "They lived there" as in "in the area." Sheesh.

They lived in the empty desert? No they didn't.

...and here's another typical hasbara tactic: The "Terra Nullius" argument. "The land was empty so it was ours for the taking." The colonial powers of Europe were very fond of that one.

As far as centuries, try again. You seem to be laboring under the illusion (and I am pretty sure I have pointed this out to you before) that there were no arab immigrants to what is now Israel prior to 48.

The jews made up about 4% of the population in Palestine prior to the aliyahs, and I think it's reasonable to assume they were sephardim or mizrahim, and not ashkenazim.
By 1947, the arab population had doubled. No immigration is needed to do that. I'm saying there wasn't any arab immigration, mind you, just that it wasn't such a huge factor as you hasbara types like to make it out to be.
In the same period of time, the ashkenazim population had gone from near zero to roughly a third of the population. That's immigration.

When those evil jews

Again with the anti-semite tactic. Hint: This isn't about jews, evil or not. It's about colonialism and racist ideologies.

moved in they brought technology, modern farming, etc. Basically they drug the place out of the stone ages and gave it an economy decades (if not centuries) ahead of the surrounding areas.

This is also a variant of the "terra nullius" argument. You're not using the land the way we want to, so it's ours for the taking."

And I am not mixing up terms. You are stating here that living somewhere grants ownership if that doesn't apply to a rented house, you have a double standard.

(more hasbara silliness snipped)

The arabs were the dominant people in the area for centuries. That made it arab land. Spin like a top if you want. The arabs made up over 90% of the population for a very long time. That's why it was arab land.

Uncle Tractor: You are aware that Gaza and the WB are run by different people, right? Perhaps not

Yes, but if the entry to statehood was for both places then you can't ignore the actions in Gaza.


How much authority does the PA have in Gaza? ...right.

Whatever makes Israel look bad right?

Israel looks bad because of the actions of the israelis.

Nobody who spend this much time talking about Israel can be that dumb.

And yet, here you are.
 
2012-04-20 06:05:14 AM

Facetious_Speciest: /Israel is doomed
//if the Arabs ever get their shiat together


Israel is doomed no matter what. Or rather; it's the "jewish state" that is doomed. Sooner or later the palestinians will accept their de facto israeli citizenship and demand the rights that go with it. That will be the end of this idiocy.
 
2012-04-20 07:29:02 AM

Uncle Tractor: The only thing that matters is that the amount of land available to the arabs of the WB is shrinking. That's the ethnic cleansing. Everything else is hasbara BS.


I was under the impression that the "new" settlements being built in the WB were being built on land that was already considered part of the settlelments (hence the Palestenains couldn't use it) so it isn't shrinking the amount of availaible land. I know there are plenty of cases when Israeli's build off that land and the IDF gives them the boot. If I am mistaken I would take another look, but using your definition there is no ethnic cleansing going on.


Since when?

Uncle Tractor: The Sea of Galilee is not a major body of water. It's a large puddle. A minor detail on the map of Israel.


Half the size of Gaza, 1/5 the size of the dead sea, but just a puddle.

It may not be a"major body of water" for the world, but when looking at a place as large as Israel and to dismiss it shows it is a terrible map.


Uncle Tractor: Derailing a discussion by focusing on irrelevant details is a typical hasbara tactic. It's what you're doing now. It often appears when the "shut them up by yelling anti-semite" tactic fails (we've already been through that).


How is the accuracy of a map not relevent?

And it is the only detail you responded to. You ignored the article. You ignored any questions on how the map decided what are belonged to what group.

Once again, how many jews per square mile did they need to make those white area "jewish"? How many arab per square mile made land "arab"? Very basic questions about the design of the map you could answer if you knew anything about it other than it makes Israel look bad so I will go with it.


Uncle Tractor:
The jews made up about 4% of the population in Palestine prior to the aliyahs, and I think it's reasonable to assume they were sephardim or mizrahim, and not ashkenazim.
By 1947, the arab population had doubled. No immigration is needed to do that. I'm saying there wasn't any arab immigration, mind you, just that it wasn't such a huge factor as you hasbara types like to make it out to be.
In the same period of time, the ashkenazim population had gone from near zero to roughly a third of the population. That's immigration


The arab population doubled from grew from 752,048 in 1914 to 1,294,000 in 1944, yes immigration is needed to do that, especially with the infant mortality among arabs at the time.


Uncle Tractor: Again with the anti-semite tactic. Hint: This isn't about jews, evil or not. It's about colonialism and racist ideologies.


When you don't think the side that wants to wipe out jews is racist, that is hard for me to believe.

When you don't speak out about how they are treated in Jordan, that is hard for me to believe.

This why I don't have a problem throwing the Nazi card with you, odd how you think that should end discussion and is a bad tactic when I still adress your points, but whenever you throw out "hasbara" you ignore my point. If I am lying or making shiat up, point out how.



Uncle Tractor: This is also a variant of the "terra nullius" argument. You're not using the land the way we want to, so it's ours for the taking."


They didn't get ownership because nobody was using it, or they weren't using it right, they got ownership because they bought the land. In the process they turned unihabitable swamps and deserts into farmlands, almost doubling the amount of orchards from 1931-1946, and brough unprecedented construction to the area.



Uncle Tractor: (more hasbara silliness snipped)

The arabs were the dominant people in the area for centuries. That made it arab land. Spin like a top if you want. The arabs made up over 90% of the population for a very long time. That's why it was arab land.


The land that jews bought from people when they were all in "Trans-jordan" has no legal weight in your eyes? Would you feel the same if an arab from palestine bought it, would his deed then be valid? Can any arab in what was the british mandate buy land anywhere else there, or is there a distance requirement from where his famliy had been living for hundreds of years?

Can you point me to another place on earth you think a persons legal deed to land shouldn't be valid because they are the wrong ethnicity? Because without that how can you say you aren't a racist.


Uncle Tractor: How much authority does the PA have in Gaza? ...right.


You were trying to make the case that Palestine (PA & Gaza) was trying to get statehood peacefully, but as long as that state includes Gaza you can't discount Gaza's actions.
 
2012-04-20 08:08:09 AM

liam76: Uncle Tractor: The only thing that matters is that the amount of land available to the arabs of the WB is shrinking. That's the ethnic cleansing. Everything else is hasbara BS.

I was under the impression that the "new" settlements being built in the WB were being built on land that was already considered part of the settlelments (hence the Palestenains couldn't use it) so it isn't shrinking the amount of availaible land. I know there are plenty of cases when Israeli's build off that land and the IDF gives them the boot. If I am mistaken I would take another look, but using your definition there is no ethnic cleansing going on.


And for the record I think they shuld be getting out of the WB.

i also appreciate how politically difficult it is given what happened in Gaza whent hey did that.
 
2012-04-20 08:17:42 AM

Tatsuma: now that's just sad. i'm done


For good? That would be nice.
 
2012-04-20 08:18:09 AM

liam76: I was under the impression that the "new" settlements being built in the WB were being built on land that was already considered part of the settlelments (hence the Palestenains couldn't use it) so it isn't shrinking the amount of availaible land. I know there are plenty of cases when Israeli's build off that land and the IDF gives them the boot. If I am mistaken I would take another look, but using your definition there is no ethnic cleansing going on.


This is true, but that is not stopping them to talk about the 'ever expending settlements' as if the whole land is being taken over, versus people building a pool behind their house, or second story on their house.
 
2012-04-20 08:19:42 AM
And yeah pools are necessary, this is friggin April and the average weather in jerusalem is sunny at 77F
\
 
2012-04-20 10:45:42 AM

liam76: I was under the impression that the "new" settlements being built in the WB were being built on land that was already considered part of the settlelments (hence the Palestenains couldn't use it) so it isn't shrinking the amount of availaible land.


And yet the number of settlers and the amount of land they take increases every year. Often on land owned by palestinians.

I know there are plenty of cases when Israeli's build off that land and the IDF gives them the boot. If I am mistaken I would take another look, but using your definition there is no ethnic cleansing going on.

Apart from cramming the palestinians into smaller and smaller parcels of land, you mean.

Uncle Tractor: The Sea of Galilee is not a major body of water. It's a large puddle. A minor detail on the map of Israel.

Half the size of Gaza, 1/5 the size of the dead sea, but just a puddle.

It may not be a"major body of water" for the world, but when looking at a place as large as Israel and to dismiss it shows it is a terrible map.

1) The sea of Galilee is a small detail on the map of Israel. As far as mistakes go, it's minor.
2) It used to be available to the arabs. Now it's (apparently) not. So it's not even a mistake.

Uncle Tractor: Derailing a discussion by focusing on irrelevant details is a typical hasbara tactic. It's what you're doing now. It often appears when the "shut them up by yelling anti-semite" tactic fails (we've already been through that).

How is the accuracy of a map not relevent?

Have you ever seen an accurate map of Israel? One that *accurately* shows the borders of Israel? How about one that accurately shows me the borders along the West Bank? Israel doesn't seem very concerned about the accuracy of it's maps.

And it is the only detail you responded to. You ignored the article. You ignored any questions on how the map decided what are belonged to what group.

Because the article was pure BS. A zionist furiously typing on spin cycle. Before 1850, arabs were free to go and live anywhere they wanted in Palestine (and AFAIK, so could the jews that lived there). Now the arabs can't even cross the road.

Once again, how many jews per square mile did they need to make those white area "jewish"? How many arab per square mile made land "arab"? Very basic questions about the design of the map you could answer if you knew anything about it other than it makes Israel look bad so I will go with it.

I'm pretty sure I've already explained this: about 90% of the population was arab. That made it arab. The number of arabs per square foot doesn't matter. 90% of the people were arabs. It was arab. And yes, the jews that lived there at the time belonged there as well. It was their home too.

The arab population doubled from grew from 752,048 in 1914 to 1,294,000 in 1944, yes immigration is needed to do that, especially with the infant mortality among arabs at the time.

Then at most half the palestinian population is the result of immigration -- which requires that the native arabs didn't increase their numbers at all. I think most of today's palestinians have ancestors both of immigrant and native origin.

Contrast that with the ashkenazim population, which went from near-zero to a third of the population (in 1947). Who are the immigrants, again?

Uncle Tractor: Again with the anti-semite tactic. Hint: This isn't about jews, evil or not. It's about colonialism and racist ideologies.

When you don't think the side that wants to wipe out jews is racist

That's Hamas, and to hell with them. And you too, for assuming that I support them. Being opposed to zionist racism doesn't automatically mean I support anti-jew racists. Making that assumption is dishonest.

This why I don't have a problem throwing the Nazi card with you,

Have fun playing with your strawman, then.

odd how you think that should end discussion and is a bad tactic when I still adress your points, but whenever you throw out "hasbara" you ignore my point. If I am lying or making shiat up, point out how.

You're not addressing any points. All you do is resort to typical hasbara tactics, such as burying the discussion in irrelevancies, building strawmen, and tossing out comparisons left and right. If you want me to stop pointing out hasbara puppetry, then stop using hasbara debate tactics. Of course, that's all you have, so ...

Uncle Tractor: This is also a variant of the "terra nullius" argument. You're not using the land the way we want to, so it's ours for the taking."

They didn't get ownership because nobody was using it, or they weren't using it right, they got ownership because they bought the land.


upload.wikimedia.org

Very little of the land was on zionist hands in 1947. The UN gave them the rest. Try another one.

In the process they turned unihabitable swamps and deserts into farmlands, almost doubling the amount of orchards from 1931-1946, and brough unprecedented construction to the area.

So what? How does that justify colonialism? Terra nullius again.

BTW: All that farmland and those orchards are going to revert to desert in the near future. Do the arabs get it back when that happens?

Can you point me to another place on earth you think a persons legal deed to land shouldn't be valid because they are the wrong ethnicity? Because without that how can you say you aren't a racist.

...aaand another hasabar tactic: Mixing different topics (private ownership and nations in this case). If I buy a plot of land in Israel, can I declare it to be a sovereign nation? I don't think so.

Uncle Tractor: How much authority does the PA have in Gaza? ...right.

You were trying to make the case that Palestine (PA & Gaza) was trying to get statehood peacefully, but as long as that state includes Gaza you can't discount Gaza's actions.

Seeing as the PA has no authority there, yes I can.
 
2012-04-20 10:51:33 AM

liam76: And for the record I think they shuld be getting out of the WB.


Too little, too late. At this point Israel just annex the WB (and Gaza) and let the arabs vote. The two-state solution is dead.
 
2012-04-20 10:52:33 AM

Tatsuma: And yeah pools are necessary, this is friggin April and the average weather in jerusalem is sunny at 77F


Where does all that pool-water come from, I wonder ...
 
2012-04-20 12:45:50 PM

Uncle Tractor: liam76: I was under the impression that the "new" settlements being built in the WB were being built on land that was already considered part of the settlelments (hence the Palestenains couldn't use it) so it isn't shrinking the amount of availaible land.

And yet the number of settlers and the amount of land they take increases every year. Often on land owned by palestinians.


Make up your mind, a few posts up you said it had nothing to do with number of settlers.

If you could point me to something showing that they are taking land that wasn't considered part of the settlements before I would be interested in reading it, but building more on existing settlements doesn't jive with your previous definition of ethnic cleansing.

Uncle Tractor: 1) The sea of Galilee is a small detail on the map of Israel. As far as mistakes go, it's minor.
2) It used to be available to the arabs. Now it's (apparently) not. So it's not even a mistake.


1) Confusing the second largest body of Water, soemthing half the size of Gaza as "minor" is weak, even for you.
2) This is the type of lie that is common with you. Israelis Arabs aren't excluded from the sea. Funny how you can, and often conflate Israeli and jew but when people say that is why you have a problem with Israel you cat like you never conflate them.

Uncle Tractor: Have you ever seen an accurate map of Israel? One that *accurately* shows the borders of Israel? How about one that accurately shows me the borders along the West Bank? Israel doesn't seem very concerned about the accuracy of it's maps.


WTF does this have to do with your map?


Uncle Tractor: Then at most half the palestinian population is the result of immigration -- which requires that the native arabs didn't increase their numbers at all. I think most of today's palestinians have ancestors both of immigrant and native origin.

Contrast that with the ashkenazim population, which went from near-zero to a third of the population (in 1947). Who are the immigrants, again?


I don't care who they are. You were trying to make the point that Jewish immigrants had no right to come, but have absolutely no problem with arab immigrants. What would you call someone who makes judgement calls like that based on race/ethnicity/religion? Hmmm.

Uncle Tractor: I'm pretty sure I've already explained this: about 90% of the population was arab. That made it arab. The number of arabs per square foot doesn't matter. 90% of the people were arabs. It was arab. And yes, the jews that lived there at the time belonged there as well. It was their home too.


Then why are there little dots of Jewish settlements on the map?

As for your explination it fails. Using your logic then all of Africa belongs to black people, and there should be no arab states, as they make up the majority of the population. See how dumb that is?

Also in 1945 (the last census by the british) it was 31% jewish.

Uncle Tractor: Very little of the land was on zionist hands in 1947. The UN gave them the rest. Try another one.


This is the root of your problem. If a town is completely Jewish, it is jewish land, everything else is Arab. Doesn't need to be an arab settlement they just get it, just because. And it doesn't matter if they moved there 5 years ago, arab immigrants are ok, but jewish ones have no right to be there. That makes you a racist.



Uncle Tractor: Mixing different topics (private ownership and nations in this case). If I buy a plot of land in Israel, can I declare it to be a sovereign nation? I don't think so.


If there is no soveriegn nation there, yes you can.



Uncle Tractor: You were trying to make the case that Palestine (PA & Gaza) was trying to get statehood peacefully, but as long as that state includes Gaza you can't discount Gaza's actions.

Seeing as the PA has no authority there, yes I can


If the PA was trying to start a state consisting of just the WB you could. It is dishonest (par for the course) for you



Uncle Tractor: That's Hamas, and to hell with them. And you too, for assuming that I support them. Being opposed to zionist racism doesn't automatically mean I support anti-jew racists. Making that assumption is dishonest.


See above. You do give implicit support for them when you pretend their actions have no role in a call for a palestenian statehood.
 
2012-04-21 06:03:44 AM

liam76: And yet the number of settlers and the amount of land they take increases every year. Often on land owned by palestinians.

Make up your mind, a few posts up you said it had nothing to do with number of settlers.


You'll have to find a quote and link, because I don't know what you're talking about -- although I suspect you're just trying to obfuscate things by mixing apples and oranges.

If you could point me to something showing that they are taking land that wasn't considered part of the settlements before I would be interested in reading it, but building more on existing settlements doesn't jive with your previous definition of ethnic cleansing.

It's not just the buildings, but the infrastructure that goes with them; the checkpoints, the jew-only roads, the behavior of the settlers themselves (they are complete scum with no redeeming qualities). However, do you honestly believe that increasing the number of settlers and building more buildings doesn't mean taking more land? Really?

1) Confusing the second largest body of Water, soemthing half the size of Gaza as "minor" is weak, even for you.

It's a minor detail, and Gaza is tiny. What's weak is using a detail like that as an excuse to dismiss a map that shows the development in the area.

2) This is the type of lie that is common with you. Israelis Arabs aren't excluded from the sea. Funny how you can, and often conflate Israeli and jew but when people say that is why you have a problem with Israel you cat like you never conflate them.

You know fully well that arabs are second-rate citizens in Israel. Their rights are on paper only. You can keep your swastika.

Uncle Tractor: Have you ever seen an accurate map of Israel?

WTF does this have to do with your map?


See, I've never seen a map of Israel that shows it's borders along the WB, and since you're such a stickler for accurate maps, I thought maybe you had one. I'd really like to see what Israel's borders look like.

Uncle Tractor: Then at most half the palestinian population is the result of immigration -- which requires that the native arabs didn't increase their numbers at all. I think most of today's palestinians have ancestors both of immigrant and native origin.

Contrast that with the ashkenazim population, which went from near-zero to a third of the population (in 1947). Who are the immigrants, again?

I don't care who they are. You were trying to make the point that Jewish immigrants had no right to come, but have absolutely no problem with arab immigrants.


There's a difference between people who come across the border to find work and people who come in from another continent to clear out the natives so they can found a new homeland for themselves. Even you can see that (not that you'd ever admit it).

What would you call someone who makes judgement calls like that based on race/ethnicity/religion? Hmmm.

In this case I'd say it was one of your hasbara strawmen.

Uncle Tractor: I'm pretty sure I've already explained this: about 90% of the population was arab. That made it arab. The number of arabs per square foot doesn't matter. 90% of the people were arabs. It was arab. And yes, the jews that lived there at the time belonged there as well. It was their home too.

Then why are there little dots of Jewish settlements on the map?


The map I showed further up in this thread? Those little dots were the land owned by the zionists in 1947. You're mixing apples with oranges again. (same old hasbara BS)

Also in 1945 (the last census by the british) it was 31% jewish.

I believe I stated something to that effect earlier in the thread. What's the point you're trying to make?

BTW: Of those 31%, more than two thirds were first generation refugees from the Third Reich. Why on earth should they be given land in Palestine?

Uncle Tractor: Very little of the land was on zionist hands in 1947. The UN gave them the rest. Try another one.

This is the root of your problem. If a town is completely Jewish, it is jewish land, everything else is Arab. Doesn't need to be an arab settlement they just get it, just because.


What you're saying is that anybody can turn their property into a sovereign nation. You really don't know the difference between property and state borders.

And it doesn't matter if they moved there 5 years ago, arab immigrants are ok, but jewish ones have no right to be there. That makes you a racist.

Keep flailing at that strawman, you righteous übermensch, you.

Uncle Tractor: Mixing different topics (private ownership and nations in this case). If I buy a plot of land in Israel, can I declare it to be a sovereign nation? I don't think so.

If there is no soveriegn nation there, yes you can.


Terra nullius again.

If the PA was trying to start a state consisting of just the WB you could. It is dishonest (par for the course) for you

The only dishonest one here is you.

Uncle Tractor: That's Hamas, and to hell with them. And you too, for assuming that I support them. Being opposed to zionist racism doesn't automatically mean I support anti-jew racists. Making that assumption is dishonest.

See above. You do give implicit support for them when you pretend their actions have no role in a call for a palestenian statehood.


What I see above are the usual strawmen and stock hasbara talking points. You are a dishonest person.
 
2012-04-21 08:10:54 AM

Uncle Tractor: liam76: And yet the number of settlers and the amount of land they take increases every year. Often on land owned by palestinians.

Make up your mind, a few posts up you said it had nothing to do with number of settlers.

You'll have to find a quote and link, because I don't know what you're talking about -- although I suspect you're just trying to obfuscate things by mixing apples and oranges.


Sorry I am trying to "obfuscate things" by using your definitions.

The only thing that matters is that the amount of land available to the arabs of the WB is shrinking. That's the ethnic cleansing. Everything else is hasbara BS..



Uncle Tractor:
It's not just the buildings, but the infrastructure that goes with them


What land have they lost. Using your definition you have shown no "ethnic cleansing".

Before you said land available. Please point me to what land they lost.

Uncle Tractor: What you're saying is that anybody can turn their property into a sovereign nation. You really don't know the difference between property and state borders.


No, for the hundredth time, I am saying, if there is no sovereign nation (as there wasn't in the british mandate) and a person buys land there they have as mush right to a state as anyone else.

You get the Nazi card because you don't think jews should be able to , but have no problem with arabs moving to that area and doing it.

Call it hasbara, play dumb and pretend I am confusing personal property, etc,but at the end of the day you think it was ok for arabs to go there, buy property and work towards a state, but not ok for jews.


Uncle Tractor: Uncle Tractor: I'm pretty sure I've already explained this: about 90% of the population was arab. That made it arab. The number of arabs per square foot doesn't matter. 90% of the people were arabs. It was arab. And yes, the jews that lived there at the time belonged there as well. It was their home too.


liam76: in 1945 (the last census by the british) it was 31% jewish


Uncle Tractor: I believe I stated something to that effect earlier in the thread. What's the point you're trying to make?



So you don't see the difference between saying 90% arab and 69% arab?

Your thought process cracks me up. When it comes to jews and claims against Israel it is perfectly fine to pretend a sea don't exist, proclaim an empty desert was populated by arabs, and 90% is no different than 69%.

Please make the case as to why I shouldn't take that as antisemetic? Is there some other nation you consistently lie about to make them look bad, and then conflate the nation with an ethnic group when it suits your purpose?
 
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