Volt is still a far better proposition for anyone who doesn't want to buy an electric Focus then ANOTHER gas-powered Focus for trips further than 35 miles out.

darkscout: superfudge73: When our oldest takes the Volt to college next year I'm thinking about getting a Tesla Roadster.

They're giving freshmen garages to change stuff in now?

Nope. I'm not letting my kids near the dorms. We got a waiver for off campus housing. All you have to do is buy a house where your kid goes to school and use that as the mailing address. It's a pretty nice place in Venice Beach, with a two car garage. I might keep it after he graduates and turn it into an offsite man cave, depends on the market.

Ardilla: Loaf's Tray: StrangeQ: Though seriously, $39,000? If I'm going to spend that much for a new car, it's going to be for an optioned out Mustang 5.0 because if I can afford a $40k car I'm not really that concerned about gas prices.

True dat - the girlies would be on standby, waiting just to say 'Hi!'...

Did you stop?

Nah, I just drove by...

Earthen: The problem with the Tesla is that it doesn't work. And even when it does, it doesn't, because you go your 200 miles or so and then you have to charge it for 16 hours. Even if there is a "Rapid Charge" setup you could have at home, you can only do that at home, not wherever you go. And even the Rapid charge is probably 2-4 hours or something, compared to the 3 minutes it takes to fill a liquid tank.

Hydrogen is the only thing that makes sense. Get rid of the gigantic battery made out of rare metals that the mining process for takes more energy and causes more pollution than traditional fuels create anyway, and use a Hydrogen fuel cell to generate the power for the electric motor. There are Hydrogen fill stations already in California, it costs the same as gas (right now with its limited production, demand and distribution), and you can fill up your tank and have a normal range just like you do with a gas car. Oh, and the exhaust is water instead of carbon monoxide.

You save the environment because Hydrogen is everywhere and we don't have to drill for it or mine for it, just extract it from water or wherever we can come up with a good process to take it. And the individual cars just produce water like it was originally taken from. The cars can look normal. They can have normal power and range. They're quiet.

Its the only non gas solution that has made sense.

/Yes, I have watched the James May film on this... clearly I'm influenced by it.

Except, of course, for the niggling fact that hydrogen doesn't exist in pure form and requires a cubic sh*tload of energy to separate from whatever it is bound to, particularly from water. So much energy, in fact, that those filling stations in California actually get their hydrogen from fossil fuel and teherefore still release lots of CO2 in the extraction process.

superfudge73: My wife and I are really into the environment. We don't own the focus but we bought a Chevy Volt and and a Nissan Leaf and really like them. We also have owned several Prius. I still have a couple of gas powered cars so I don't know what it's like to only have a electric cars. When our oldest takes the Volt to college next year I'm thinking about getting a Tesla Roadster. I saw some in a dealership in Boulder and they are pretty reasonably priced, it's cheaper than my 2011 Maserati Grandturismo, which was a pretty good deal at 150.

I'd give you -0.5/10 but you managed to get a few bites.

Buying an electric car from Ford is like buying an AA book from your bartender. Seems legit.

madgonad: The price is insane.

Hell, the Nissan Leaf is only $35k.

The math just doesn't make sense. The only cost-driver in electrics is the battery. The electric motors and electronics add about the same cost as a motor, exhaust, cooling, and fuel system in a regular car. So the total non-battery price of a Focus is still around $20k. That means that they think the battery is worth another $20k, which is BS. The battery cost for electric cars is well below $250/kWh. The Focus EV uses a 23kWh battery which costs Ford about $6-7k. So they could sell these damn things for well under $30k and still make money. Hell, the EV tax credit would bring the price almost down to the cost of a gasoline version.

They have to reach the break even point first. New things are expensive until the BE point is reached.

Perfect for short range in-city driving!

Even if there are Ultracapacitors that can jam a battery up quickly... how long does it take to charge that capacitor? Does it cost energy for it to hold that charge if there are no customers using it (like overnight or something?) How many will a filling/charging station need in order to satisfy the customers in a timely fashion? (assuming everyone had such a car and gas cars became museum pieces and toys for the rich and the collector). Is there enough Nickel and Molybdenum and so on in the world to make those batteries for all car users even in the US? Would we win the battle over not needing foreign oil to start a battle over needing foreign rare metals?

capt.hollister: Earthen: The problem with the Tesla is that it doesn't work. And even when it does, it doesn't, because you go your 200 miles or so and then you have to charge it for 16 hours. Even if there is a "Rapid Charge" setup you could have at home, you can only do that at home, not wherever you go. And even the Rapid charge is probably 2-4 hours or something, compared to the 3 minutes it takes to fill a liquid tank.

Hydrogen is the only thing that makes sense. Get rid of the gigantic battery made out of rare metals that the mining process for takes more energy and causes more pollution than traditional fuels create anyway, and use a Hydrogen fuel cell to generate the power for the electric motor. There are Hydrogen fill stations already in California, it costs the same as gas (right now with its limited production, demand and distribution), and you can fill up your tank and have a normal range just like you do with a gas car. Oh, and the exhaust is water instead of carbon monoxide.

You save the environment because Hydrogen is everywhere and we don't have to drill for it or mine for it, just extract it from water or wherever we can come up with a good process to take it. And the individual cars just produce water like it was originally taken from. The cars can look normal. They can have normal power and range. They're quiet.

Its the only non gas solution that has made sense.

/Yes, I have watched the James May film on this... clearly I'm influenced by it.

Except, of course, for the niggling fact that hydrogen doesn't exist in pure form and requires a cubic sh*tload of energy to separate from whatever it is bound to, particularly from water. So much energy, in fact, that those filling stations in California actually get their hydrogen from fossil fuel and teherefore still release lots of CO2 in the extraction process.

God, it's almost like there's embodied energy in every single process you do. Wonder why nobody's ever bothered to think about that before?

superfudge73: Nope. I'm not letting my kids near the dorms.

Yeah, only the losers stay in the dorms. I can't think of a single social thing that ever happened just because I happened to be in them.

Starhawk: So they thought customers would be amped, but there is resistance? Charge ahead, I say. There is capacity in the market yet.

Nice, but you could have worked in the words "induced" and "reactance" too. 8/10.

I like my 2011 Elantra Limited just fine. Half the price of this one, gets decent mileage, and actually looks really nice. The wider-than-normal tires make it handle very nicely, too. Not a ton of power, but that's not why I got it.

Would I get an electric car? Sure, if the price were right and it could travel a decent distance.

I wouldn't assume its "green", though. Unless I knew for sure where the electricity was being generated, anyway. Some solar cells on the car roof wouldn't be a bad idea. Granted, it would be a very slow trickle charge, but why waste all that sun while the thing's parked when you're at work?

Earthen: The problem with the Tesla is that it doesn't work. And even when it does, it doesn't, because you go your 200 miles or so and then you have to charge it for 16 hours.

Which fits with well about 95% of the population's driving habits. Long-haul truckers, taxis, not so much. The rest of us? I've had my car four years and never driven it more than 100 miles before returning home. We have another vehicle for the few long-haul trips, but if we didn't need both, we could rent a vehicle for those rare occasions.

Sorry, but *this* is a stupid objection. Yes, this isn't a car for travelling salesmen. What of it?

superfudge73:
Nope. I'm not letting my kids near the dorms. We got a waiver for off campus housing. All you have to do is buy a house where your kid goes to school and use that as the mailing address. It's a pretty nice place in Venice Beach, with a two car garage. I might keep it after he graduates and turn it into an offsite man cave, depends on the market.

I really hate you Orange County.


~signed Los Angeles County

Earthen: Even if there are Ultracapacitors that can jam a battery up quickly... how long does it take to charge that capacitor?

Approximately 5*R*C.

capt.hollister: hufnmouth: Would love to buy it, but the $40K price tag is steep.

When looking at the cost of the car, most people forget to include the fact that they will save many thousands a year in fuel costs, making the electric much more affordable than it seems at first glance.

The truth, I suspect, is that lots of people love the idea of electirc cars, but very few are willing to put their money where their mouth is...

They won't though. The saving/gain is too long/ too small.

Let's compare the prius (a reasonably priced hybrid) to a corolla (a similarly equipped alternative).

A top of the line corolla cost just under $18,000 MSRP. And entry level Prius cost around $24,000 MSRP. This is a difference of $6,000 (duh).

Let's assume you drive 15,000 miles a year with gas @ 3.50 a gallon.

A typical corolla will average around 30MPG in real world driving.
A typical Prius will average around 45 MPG in real world driving.

So... 15,000 miles / 30mpg ...the corolla will need 500 gallons of fuel for the year. 500 gallons at $3.50 equates to $1,750 a year spent on gas.

For the prius, 15,000 miles / 45mpg = 333 gallon of fuel @ $3.50 per gallon = $1,165 on fuel.

$1750 - $1,165 = $585 a year saved on gas.... $6,000 / $585 = just over 10 years to make up the difference.

Doctor_TeethMD: Stop making electric cars clearly look douchey. I don't care about the extra few miles I get if I have to drive around looking like Clark Griswold in a pea soup family truckster.

Correction: Metallic Pea.

capt.hollister:

Except, of course, for the niggling fact that hydrogen doesn't exist in pure form and requires a cubic sh*tload of energy to separate from whatever it is bound to, particularly from water. So much energy, in fact, that those filling stations in California actually get their hydrogen from fossil fuel and teherefore still release lots of CO2 in the extraction process.

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. But.. if we reduced the fossil fuel usage in all the cars and trucks, and saved it for power plants,fossil fuels would be very abundant, cheap, and the total emissions worldwide would be way down. We could handle it. Plus, there are lots of ways of generating power, and nuclear power is vastly underutilized. A shift to nuclear, and more wind/tidal/solar, plus still using some coal/oil, is better than where we are now.

We don't have to entirely stop burning fossil fuels. We just need to burn a lot less, and keep pushing energy technology to be better and keep looking for new sources.

Bhasayate: rubi_con_man: The people who need the electric car also need it to cost 8-12 thousand dollars

Which is why we need the government to subsidize them. Keep. Throwing. Money. At. It.

Um... How 'bout no.

The government already has enough crap we can't pay for without adding that to it.

capt.hollister: hufnmouth: Would love to buy it, but the $40K price tag is steep.

When looking at the cost of the car, most people forget to include the fact that they will save many thousands a year in fuel costs, making the electric much more affordable than it seems at first glance.

The truth, I suspect, is that lots of people love the idea of electirc cars, but very few are willing to put their money where their mouth is...

Except that large parts of the population live and/or work in places where they can't charge the thing.

Infrastructure is going to be a challenge for any new energy source for cars, whether it be electric batteries, Hydrogen, or anything else.

I just can't imagine any infrastructure nationwide that would make batteries a 100% implementation possible model due to charge times, while Hydrogen can achieve it because the production happens independent of the fill demand like gas is today.

Regarding the explosive nature of Hydrogen, I seem to recall a Mythbusters episode (not exactly pure science I know) where they filled a tank full of compressed Hydrogen, and shot it with a gun. It ignited but burned cleanly out the bullet hole instead of exploding (the flame was invisible). They expected it to explode. I'm sure is possible to cause an explosion, but its also possible with gas (as it heats it vaporizes and if the hole is too small it explodes). I'm not sure there's an appreciable difference there.

Mr. Breeze: Bhasayate: rubi_con_man: The people who need the electric car also need it to cost 8-12 thousand dollars

Which is why we need the government to subsidize them. Keep. Throwing. Money. At. It.

Um... How 'bout no.

The government already has enough crap we can't pay for without adding that to it.

But it's only fair. We have to ensure that every one has an electric car; it's a basic human right.

xebeche_tzu: $27k

Why does it have to look like shiat?

capt.hollister: hufnmouth: Would love to buy it, but the $40K price tag is steep.

When looking at the cost of the car, most people forget to include the fact that they will save many thousands a year in fuel costs, making the electric much more affordable than it seems at first glance.

The truth, I suspect, is that lots of people love the idea of electirc cars, but very few are willing to put their money where their mouth is...

The problem is the length of time it take to make the pay-off.

a nicely equipped focus runs about $23K. so we are talking about a $26K difference.

If you spend $50 a week in gas it takes 320 weeks to make up the cost, 6yrs. I'm figuring the cost of oil changes and the cost of charging are off-setting one another, but to be honest, i have no idea how much it costs to charge an electric car.

It takes too long to pay for itself.

Mr. Breeze: Bhasayate: rubi_con_man: The people who need the electric car also need it to cost 8-12 thousand dollars

Which is why we need the government to subsidize them. Keep. Throwing. Money. At. It.

Um... How 'bout no.

The government already has enough crap we can't pay for without adding that to it.

The theory is, if the government does it for a little while, the market eventually kicks in. The gov't was buying ICs when they cost pennies per transistor. Now we have billion element chips for a few bucks. The gov't bailed out GM and Chrysler, and now GM has had record profits two years after a near-collapse. Unfortunately, government intervention in the market sometimes works.

superfudge73: It's a pretty nice place in Venice Beach, with a two car garage. I might keep it after he graduates and turn it into an offsite man cave, depends on the market.

And how badly your kid and his friends wreck it.

Ninja Otter: Mr. Breeze: Bhasayate: rubi_con_man: The people who need the electric car also need it to cost 8-12 thousand dollars

Which is why we need the government to subsidize them. Keep. Throwing. Money. At. It.

Um... How 'bout no.

The government already has enough crap we can't pay for without adding that to it.

The theory is, if the government does it for a little while, the market eventually kicks in. The gov't was buying ICs when they cost pennies per transistor. Now we have billion element chips for a few bucks. The gov't bailed out GM and Chrysler, and now GM has had record profits two years after a near-collapse. Unfortunately, government intervention in the market sometimes works.

Ah, so that's why health care has always been so cheap. And I'm not referring to Obamacare.

Just traded our 2009 Focus for a 2012 model. Both are good cars getting around 35 mpg on the highway and 30 or better in town.

Only $20K out the door for the new one with Sync, satellite radio, navigation, leather, bluetooth, etc. etc. really loaded with technology.

You'd really have to be a green idiot to not figure out the math that an inexpensive small car is good enough. At least until they figure out how to replace dinosaur juice with some other fuel. Swapping out dinosaur fuel in liquid form (gasoline) for dinosaur fuel in solid form (coal) and then add the loss in generation, transmission and storage and you'll see that gas engines are still better.

Earthen: Regarding the explosive nature of Hydrogen, I seem to recall a Mythbusters episode (not exactly pure science I know) where they filled a tank full of compressed Hydrogen, and shot it with a gun. It ignited but burned cleanly out the bullet hole instead of exploding (the flame was invisible). They expected it to explode.

Unless they took "explode" to mean "catastrophic collapse of the pressure vessel upon bullet impact", they're idiots.


A tank by itself only has one side of the triangle -- the fuel (or in the case of an oxygen tank, the oxidizer). The bullet impact creates a spark which supplies the initial heat (side #2). But even then, you still have to expel the gas into an oxygen-containing environment in order to initiate and sustain combustion. That's not going to happen on a massive scale unless the tank catastrophically collapses. Best you get is a jet of flame out of a pinhole. (And no, it doesn't matter if the flame "backs up" into the tank--number 1, it won't, and number 2, there's no oxygen inside the hydrogen tank.)

And wouldn't you know it, the designers of pressure vessels tend to take such issues into account when designing vessels for highly flammable gasses.

TommyDeuce: So - $5k more then a Leaf, with less range. Same price as a Volt, with no gas-powered back-up on board.

Can't imagine any reason to buy this unless you're a Ford purist who wants to go electric.

My guess is that they are charging the actual cost to make the thing. Batteries arenot cheap. Either you charge less than production costs or the thing is too expensive. GM and Nissan are using them as loss leaders (and with GM in particular, they have to suck up to the Obama administration).

algrant33: Missouri School of MInes disagrees.

Solar race cars are interesting, but I took dukeblue's comment to mean street cars, not a specialized race car that has no cargo space, isn't crash worthy, designed for a single light driver, needs a "small caravan" worth of support, and the world record is 55.2 mph in a special setup where they removed even more weight.

All this in a package that tends to take up as much space as a full sized car.

HMS_Blinkin: Dude, the electric Focus looks almost identical to the regular Focus. How is it "douchey?" It's a normal farking car, tons of people drive Foci (Focuses?).

I'm not going to call it that. What I'll point out is this:
Ford Focus Electric: $39k
Ford Focus SEL: $21k

Cost difference for electric: $18k, at which point you could buy a SE 5 door model Focus as a spare.
At $4/gallon, that's 4.5k gallons of gasoline. 3.6k at $5(when far more people would buy one). Still a lot of gasoline.
A gasoline Focus is 28 city/40 hwy/33 combined.
$4 gas: 126k - 180k miles, 150k combined. 15k miles/year is the common figure I see, so you're looking at a decade for payback, assuming electricity is free.
$5 gas: 101k- 144k, 119k combined. Better, but still not within a 7 year payback window.

Earthen: Even if there is a "Rapid Charge" setup you could have at home, you can only do that at home, not wherever you go. And even the Rapid charge is probably 2-4 hours or something, compared to the 3 minutes it takes to fill a liquid tank.

Is it still going to take only 3 minutes to fill a tank of hydrogen?

By the way, there are some problems with your idea:
1. While the highest energy fuel by mass, it's one of the lowest by volume, until you're liquifying it.
2. By the time you're pressurizing it enough to fix the volume problem, you're spending a LOT of money and mass on your tank.
3. Sure, the hydrogen atom is everywhere. But while we don't have to 'drill for it', we do have to refine it - whether by cracking methane or electrolysis of water. The first produces CO2 and the second either produces pollution from whatever electric production method was used or costs massive amounts of money for 'green' power. Remember, if you're getting electricity from solar panels, the panels aren't any greener than the batteries. Currently batteries are more efficient energy storage systems than hydrogen - it takes more power to produce the hydrogen to go a mile in a fuel cell car than it does to charge a battery to take an EV a mile.
4. Battery chemicals aren't rare. Lithium is actually pretty common. They're also recyclable. The rare-earth permanent magents in the motor is a bigger issue, but still present whether the power is provided by battery or fuel cell.
5. On the other hand, fuel cells use rare elements and cost insane amounts of money.

Personally, I'm for EVs for daily commuters and strong hybrids for those that need the extra range. Fill the tanks of said hybrids with 'biogasoline' generated from algae.

Just a couple of points:

The Tesla S will be 50k after tax rebate (so ~$57k).

The Focus is $39k before tax rebate (so ~$32k).

EVs cost about $600 in electricity at $.011 per kWh and 15k miles/year.

Due to decreased maintenance (no oil changes/transmission flush/etc.) cost of a LEAF is $.035/mile. Focus will be a bit more due to having liquid cooled batteries (don't know how often that needs to be flushed). Prius is about $.085/mile. $18k ICE car that gets 30 mpg is about $.119/mile.

The number of vehicles that need to be on the grid in order to have a significant impact on electricity availability is over 50 million by most calculations (hard to quantify based on having basically east and west coast grids that don't cross over).

Coal power plants pollute even when there is little demand since they stay "hot" to be ready for peak demand.

Still not worth the payback for an EV, but if you can charge where you work for no cost, then it gets real close.

Earthen: Even if there are Ultracapacitors that can jam a battery up quickly... how long does it take to charge that capacitor? Does it cost energy for it to hold that charge if there are no customers using it (like overnight or something?) How many will a filling/charging station need in order to satisfy the customers in a timely fashion? (assuming everyone had such a car and gas cars became museum pieces and toys for the rich and the collector). Is there enough Nickel and Molybdenum and so on in the world to make those batteries for all car users even in the US? Would we win the battle over not needing foreign oil to start a battle over needing foreign rare metals?


I should have used more accurate wording. Ultracapacitors take the place of a battery. They combine the fast charge/discharge of a capacitor, with the capacity of a battery. A short answer is they can be charged as fast as electricity can be delivered to them. The are different types of ultracapacitors, the type I refer to use nano scale conductors and dieletric to give them a huge internal surface area that stores large amounts of energy.

This is very new technology however and there are many approaches with specific advantages/disadvantages to be worked out, so it will be some time before that method is widespread.

There's also the ultrabattery that marries a present-day ultracapacitor to a present-day battery. You can quickly charge the ultracapacitor and it in turn charges (more slowly) the battery over time. This would allow fast usability of a depleted electric vehicle after refueling.

This text is now purple: TheDirtyNacho: Meh. It only gets 77 miles per charge and its a 40-grand Focus.

[uncrate.com image 470x265]

Later this year, for 50k, this Tesla S will do 160 miles. They also have uprated battery options to take it to 300 miles. And you can install a rapid charger in your garage. Current electric rates here calculate to around $8.50 per 300 mile charge.

I've been hearing that shiat since 2008.

Duke Nukem Forever took less time to be released.

Duke Nukem Forever was originally supposed to be released in 1998. It was finally released last year. So, um, no.

INFINITE ENERGY

$39k for a Focus? Fark that noise...

/Drives an '03 Focus w/ ~156000 miles on it
//getting a kick...

Geotpf: My guess is that they are charging the actual cost to make the thing

Not just time and materials, but don't forget the amortized cost of the tooling and R&D (which ideally, is amortized out over 2 years or more). fluffy2097: algrant33: Unless they took "explode" to mean "catastrophic collapse of the pressure vessel upon bullet impact", they're idiots.

One of the things mythbusters do is cater to idiots. Some idiot says "The tank will EXPLODE!" and the mythbusters say "Challenge accepted!" A few days later, they will be attempting to blow up a hydrogen tank with a bullet. They probably knew nothing would happen for the reasons you outlined, and were hoping for a catastrophic pressure vessel failure. When the tank doesn't explode they say "See! Myth busted!"

Yeah, they do that quite frequently. And I understand they have to cater to their demographic. And hey, I watch the show too when it's on when I'm wanting to watch, partially because they get paid to put holes in things and make huge fireballs.

I hate when they very-unconvincingly declare a real phenomenon a "myth" based on a flawed trial, and then don't do anything to back it up. I can't for the life of me think of an example, but I've seen it done at least three times and I'm sure they've done it more often. They even have had a redo-show or two where the fanbase writes enough angry letters suggesting they didn't do it right that they pretty much have to try again to save face.

wxboy: georgeyporgey: If they can't sell it in Cali, NY, and NJ, arguably some of the most affluent areas in the US. Where will it sell?

When I think NJ, I usually think more of "effluent" than "affluent".

NJ has three things going for it:

1. Most of the state is a bedroom community of either NYC or Philadelphia
2. The really poor parts of the state are in largely depopulated areas (It's called the Pine Barrens for a reason)
3. Even the trashy parts are ocean-front

NJ is like a shiatty house built on a large lot in a great location.

This text is now purple: wxboy: georgeyporgey: If they can't sell it in Cali, NY, and NJ, arguably some of the most affluent areas in the US. Where will it sell?

When I think NJ, I usually think more of "effluent" than "affluent".

NJ has three things going for it:

1. Most of the state is a bedroom community of either NYC or Philadelphia
2. The really poor parts of the state are in largely depopulated areas (It's called the Pine Barrens for a reason)
3. Even the trashy parts are ocean-front

NJ is like a shiatty house built on a large lot in a great location.

And just like Mexico, they don't even trust their own citizens to be smart enough to pump their own gas.