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(Yahoo)   Study shows that the precentage of people believing in God increases dramatically with age. Statisticians call this phenomenon "hedging your bets"   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 554
    More: Obvious, Catholic Church by country, believe in God, earliest memories, major religions, Houston, Texas, god exists, National Opinion Research Center  
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2899 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Apr 2012 at 10:12 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-18 10:53:16 AM

brantgoose: A probability of zero or one does not exist.


Yes it does, everything that did or did not happen in the past has a 1 or zero probability.

And there is a 100% chance that the good who took Hossa's head off last night is gone for at least ten games.

Not sure how hockey fits in, but I just finished the sport section.
 
2012-04-18 10:54:55 AM

Drasancas: Yes - because religion is born of fear


If you're not scared, you're not paying attention. You're on a molten rock shooting around a thermonuclear explosion at 30,000 mph. You're gonna die. You just don't know when, or how.


//why I AM fun at parties, how did you know?
 
2012-04-18 10:54:57 AM

Metaphysical Ham Sandwich: Doc Daneeka: I respect the hell out of her for that, for sticking to her principles. It's got to be really hard to stare your own mortality in the face for months and months, and not give yourself over to the comforting belief in an afterlife. To stay true to your own sincere understanding of the universe, even if it doesn't provide much immediate comfort.

Every single day of your life you are staring your mortality in the face, or at least you should be. Memento mori, bub.


True, but there's a big difference between knowing in the abstract that any given day could be your last on the one hand, and on the other hand having a doctor tell you that you'll most likely be dead in a year.

Most people "know" that that anything could happen and any day could be their last, but nonetheless operate under the assumption that that they'll live to some indefinite point decades down the line.
 
2012-04-18 10:55:03 AM

Forgot_my_password_again: or decided we were big boys and should try to solve our own problems.

It amazes me how we fight our whole lives to be free to make our own decisions then complain god doesn't solve everything for us.


You're right, I'm just complaining about whole villages of women and children being massacred. My bad, I'm sure they had it coming.

Your compassion is overwhelming.
 
2012-04-18 10:55:13 AM

halfof33: good


goon

Man the n ain't even close to the d on the keyboard.

Stupid spell checker.
 
2012-04-18 10:56:15 AM

Santa's Knee: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 400x341]


My mind just
 
2012-04-18 10:57:15 AM

hailin: While I'm not religious and don't go to church, I am kind of jealous of the community they have. Whenever my friends who are actively involved in their church needs help (moving, digging up a flower bed, help painting their house, etc.) they always have at least 30 people on hand to help them without expecting anything in return. When I need help I have to beg my friends and lure them with free BBQ and beer and even then only 2 or 3 people will show up. I know, I know...just make better friends, but that is kind of hard as a near-30 married adult in a fairly small city who isn't interested in coffee shops, book clubs, bars, and doesn't have kids. Oh and little to no money to spend going out for dinners, lunches, and such.


Just do what likely 90 per cent of your church-going buds do- pretend to believe!
 
2012-04-18 10:57:52 AM

The Slush: Statisticians call this phenomenon "hedging your bets"

It's called Pascal's Wager.


(1) Pascal's wager is a logic puzzle, and has nothing to to with statistics.

(2) Pascal's wager isn't logically valid, since it's just two false dichotomies multiplied by each other.

Also, most likely this trend has more to do with ever-increasing proportions of the population being educated with each generation than people actually converting.
 
2012-04-18 10:59:11 AM

TheManofPA: Baryogenesis: The Slush: Statisticians call this phenomenon "hedging your bets"

It's called Pascal's Wager.

And the odds are against you.

Or, as Homer Simpson might say, "What if we picked the wrong religion? Every week we're just making God madder and madder."

I interrupt this post to bring you A FOOTBALL GAME


Whoa doctor! A 98 yard triple reverse ties the game at 63-63. We've seen nothing but razzle dazzle here today. Three appearances by the kissing bandit and the astonishing return of Jim Brown!

Forgot_my_password_again: Baryogenesis: And really, genocide is the only way humans would ever learn to be independent.

Maybe humans need to learn to fix the problems they cause.


Sure, but the "teaching theodicy" (which is what your post was about whether you knew that or not) is a sorry excuse for a supposedly caring and omnipotent God. Moreover, using human beings as a means to an end is rightly deemed immoral by pretty much everyone who has ever thought the problem through (i.e. It's immoral to conduct dangerous medical experiments on people without their consent for the sake of finding cures). God not stopping genocide because he's using it as a lesson for humans is absolutely disgusting.
 
2012-04-18 10:59:40 AM

Martian_Astronomer: Okay, so rather than the typical directionless mudslinging, would anyone like to discuss the C.S. Lewis' "Argument from Desire," since it is quite pertinent to the subject matter from this article? I've seen a couple of formulations, some better than others, but the most common one (from Wikipedia in this case,) goes like this.

P1: All innate human desires have objects that exist. (For instance, it is possible for hunger to be satisfied by food, which exists.)
P2: There is a desire for "we know not what" whose object cannot be identified.
C: If the object of this desire does not exist in this world, it must exist in another.

I have also heard people use this argument to argue for the possibility of eternal life, since people want that too. I obviously think that this argument is flawed on a couple levels: First, "wanting" things is a product of biology, and it's the existence of the drive that's evolutionarily useful, regardless of how successful we are in achieving our desires. Second, the vague sense of longing described in the argument seems to me to be a desire for a permanent form of satisfaction, whereas all of the others mentioned are temporary, and based on achieving shorter-term goals. Just because it's possible to get what we want sometimes, doesn't mean it's always possible: We want food, but it's not always available. We want companionship, but sometimes we get stranded on a desert island. We'd like to keep living and it's usually possible, but eventually you'll reach a point where that's not going to happen. As such, I see no reason to assert that some sort of longing for permanent satisfaction has an object.

People point out the tendency of humanity to long for the supernatural as evidence for otherworldly stuff, but that's also consistently explained as an extension of our more mundane desires - possibly moreso.


Here's the thing that always strikes me: People have been worshipping "God" and believing in an afterlife since before the existence of modern humans (even Neandertals ritually interred their dead and placed grave goods in the tombs). Having a religion is one of the few truly universal human traits. It seems to occur in almost every society on earth throughout history, no matter how advanced or primitive. Therefore all that spirituality is either a reflection of a common human sensation of something beyond that has existed since the beginning of humanity, or something innate in the way our consciousness works.
 
2012-04-18 11:00:52 AM

hailin: While I'm not religious and don't go to church, I am kind of jealous of the community they have.


True, true. Maybe it's somewhere between the fact that there are no organizations pre-cast to make secular communities and the fact it's like herding cats.
 
2012-04-18 11:00:54 AM
The craziest religious people I've ever met are people who have "found God" later in life.
Most priests and lifetime churchgoers I've met are happy and simple and roll their eyes at idealist newcomers.
 
2012-04-18 11:00:54 AM

Hebalo: You must be a pretty bitter person. Of course good things come from faith, from opening yourself up to possibilities and embracing a moral concept of say "do unto others".


At what point does "do unto others" come from faith? How does "do unto others" emerge from accepting claims without sufficient evidence?
 
2012-04-18 11:01:19 AM

T-Servo: You're right, I'm just complaining about whole villages of women and children being massacred. My bad, I'm sure they had it coming.


what happened to them was caused by people. It needs to be solved by people.

Crying that god didn't stop it when humans have every opportunity but don't is misplaced.

we have free will and if we choose to ignore genocide, thats on us.
 
2012-04-18 11:01:29 AM
> In Judeo-Christian tradition, fear is invariably a factor, since these religions are death-centric and teach that eternal punishment is doled out by a wrathful god for disbelieving.

The Good News that Jesus preached is that this is wrong!
 
2012-04-18 11:01:30 AM

Nana's Vibrator: spentmiles: When I was a boy, my mother made me walk to church by myself. On one hand, she wanted to expend some of that youthful energy before I had to sit through a two hour sermon. On the other hand, the church sat atop the highest hill in town. It was a three mile walk, almost straight up hill, exhausting. It was especially bad in the winter when the sleet and frigid wind would sweep down the hill like an icy locomotive. Those days, I often thought about giving up, going home, sitting next to the raging fire until I could feel my skin begin to burn. However, from anywhere on the hill, I could look up and see the giant cross urging me forward. I spoke often to God on those long climbs, about faith, about devotion, about steadfastness in the face of adversity. There wasn't much else to do but pant and open my heart to Jesus Christ. And, lucky for me, as I was trudging up the hill one morning, a gas leak at the church caused it to explode, killing everyone inside. God rewards the faithful and crushes the sinners with his mighty fist of rage.

And when you looked back, there was only one set of footprints. This is the word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.


There was only one set of footprints because you were alone and it was all in your head. Now stop daydreaming and pay attention to reality.
 
2012-04-18 11:01:58 AM

twiztedjustin: I'm just as much an Atheist in my 30s as I when I was 9 years old.


I'm as much an atheist in my 40's as I was when I was born.
 
2012-04-18 11:03:14 AM

Hebalo: Science is about learning, about fact. There's little room for moral correctness. Of course most people have a strong moral compass that prevents them from committing atrocities, but it's not impossible.

And nothing good coming from faith? really? You must be a pretty bitter person. Of course good things come from faith, from opening yourself up to possibilities and embracing a moral concept of say "do unto others".

You seem to be the kind of problem I was talking about. If you claim to be a man of science, you should be open to possibilities, like the possibility that faith can lead to good things.


A)"There's little room for moral correctness" is a meaningless assertion. There's no reason to assume that morality is an unscientific topic. There's even less of a reason to assume that faith has anything meaningful to say about the topic.

B)Faith is the abandoment of reason. It's believing in something despite contradictory evidence. I'm not bitter. I simply require evidence to justify believing a claim. Faith can lead to a good thing, but it does so infrequently and entirely by accident.

C)It doesn't take faith to embrace the concept of "do unto others." All it takes is empathy. A child understands this.
 
2012-04-18 11:03:59 AM

Drasancas: Hebalo: You must be a pretty bitter person. Of course good things come from faith, from opening yourself up to possibilities and embracing a moral concept of say "do unto others".

At what point does "do unto others" come from faith? How does "do unto others" emerge from accepting claims without sufficient evidence?


It's illogical to help someone else without benefit or gain to yourself?
 
2012-04-18 11:04:48 AM

Magorn: Here's the thing that always strikes me: People have been worshipping "God" and believing in an afterlife since before the existence of modern humans (even Neandertals ritually interred their dead and placed grave goods in the tombs).


Burying dead is a long way off from believing in God. For the most part, God is a western creation. Places like Japan and China never even thought of it until European Christians started landing on their shores.
 
2012-04-18 11:05:00 AM

mkhamy: > In Judeo-Christian tradition, fear is invariably a factor, since these religions are death-centric and teach that eternal punishment is doled out by a wrathful god for disbelieving.

The Good News that Jesus preached is that this is wrong!




Not sure if serious?
 
2012-04-18 11:06:00 AM

Magorn: Here's the thing that always strikes me: People have been worshipping "God" and believing in an afterlife since before the existence of modern humans (even Neandertals ritually interred their dead and placed grave goods in the tombs). Having a religion is one of the few truly universal human traits. It seems to occur in almost every society on earth throughout history, no matter how advanced or primitive. Therefore all that spirituality is either a reflection of a common human sensation of something beyond that has existed since the beginning of humanity, or something innate in the way our consciousness works.


Here's the think that always strikes me: People have been engaging in war, rape, and murder since before the existence of modern humans (even Neandertals). Such cruelty is one of the few truly universal human traits. It seems to occur in almost every society on earth throughout history, no matter how advanced or primitive. Therefore all that cruelty is either a reflection of a common human sensation of something beyond that has existed since the beginning of humanity, or something innate in the way our consciousness works.
 
2012-04-18 11:06:03 AM

Hebalo: Drasancas: Hebalo: You must be a pretty bitter person. Of course good things come from faith, from opening yourself up to possibilities and embracing a moral concept of say "do unto others".

At what point does "do unto others" come from faith? How does "do unto others" emerge from accepting claims without sufficient evidence?

It's illogical to help someone else without benefit or gain to yourself?


Social Contract
 
2012-04-18 11:06:25 AM

Metaphysical Ham Sandwich: C)It doesn't take faith to embrace the concept of "do unto others." All it takes is empathy. A child understands this.


Good to see you're not being a dick about this.

What is the point of empathy? What does it gain you? How does it make you better?

/The problem I have with the so-called "new skeptics" is that they seemingly go out of their way to assholes about it. There's a big difference between knowing you're right, and ensuring everyone else knows it too.
 
2012-04-18 11:06:40 AM

Baryogenesis: God not stopping genocide because he's using it as a lesson for humans is absolutely disgusting.


Its not about teaching us anything. Humans did that to each other. They had a choice and that was their choice. Other humans have a choice to either stop it or ignore it.

free will is a biatch when it means we have to deal with our choices
 
2012-04-18 11:07:13 AM

joonyer: Nana's Vibrator: spentmiles: When I was a boy, my mother made me walk to church by myself. On one hand, she wanted to expend some of that youthful energy before I had to sit through a two hour sermon. On the other hand, the church sat atop the highest hill in town. It was a three mile walk, almost straight up hill, exhausting. It was especially bad in the winter when the sleet and frigid wind would sweep down the hill like an icy locomotive. Those days, I often thought about giving up, going home, sitting next to the raging fire until I could feel my skin begin to burn. However, from anywhere on the hill, I could look up and see the giant cross urging me forward. I spoke often to God on those long climbs, about faith, about devotion, about steadfastness in the face of adversity. There wasn't much else to do but pant and open my heart to Jesus Christ. And, lucky for me, as I was trudging up the hill one morning, a gas leak at the church caused it to explode, killing everyone inside. God rewards the faithful and crushes the sinners with his mighty fist of rage.

And when you looked back, there was only one set of footprints. This is the word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.

There was only one set of footprints because you were alone and it was all in your head. Now stop daydreaming and pay attention to reality.


No! Alas, the Lord was carrying me to the getaway car, but also berating me for not using a slow burning accellerant. The gasline I ruptured was a crude methodology and nearly killed us both! He can come back but that would have been it for me. And believe me, when He comes back, he will rise again on the third day in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He will judge the living and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end!
 
2012-04-18 11:07:22 AM
I love that subby calls this obvious, because a long cohort study I read in college said the opposite:
that each generation followed throughout their lives showed decreasing religiousness. It further showed that the reason we think old people are more religious is because they are: each generation is less religious than the last, and this aspect of of their religiousness makes it appear that people get more religious as they get old.

So all the sixty year olds are less religious on average than they were at 20. However, they were so much more religious at 20 than the people who are now fifty that they, as a group, are still more religious than that next generation.

I apologize I don't have time to dig up the study.

The linked article only shows one thing: that old people are more religious than young people. At no point does it take the time to follow cohort groups throughout their lives and analyze individual generations. This is the reason everyone thinks everything sociologists learn is "obvious" as subby puts it. One, its only obvious after the study is out. Two, if subby had linked the study I refer to, then after reading it the explanation behind the numbers would also appear obvious. Top that off with the standard inability of the retarded journalists to understand what numbers in a study actually mean, and we get inundated with junk science.
 
2012-04-18 11:07:34 AM

Forgot_my_password_again: T-Servo: You're right, I'm just complaining about whole villages of women and children being massacred. My bad, I'm sure they had it coming.

what happened to them was caused by people. It needs to be solved by people.

Crying that god didn't stop it when humans have every opportunity but don't is misplaced.

we have free will and if we choose to ignore genocide, thats on us.


Actually, I completely agree. Which is why it's better for me not to even bother with God, so I have no higher power to complain to.
 
2012-04-18 11:07:54 AM

hartzdog: Magorn: Here's the thing that always strikes me: People have been worshipping "God" and believing in an afterlife since before the existence of modern humans (even Neandertals ritually interred their dead and placed grave goods in the tombs). Having a religion is one of the few truly universal human traits. It seems to occur in almost every society on earth throughout history, no matter how advanced or primitive. Therefore all that spirituality is either a reflection of a common human sensation of something beyond that has existed since the beginning of humanity, or something innate in the way our consciousness works.

Here's the think that always strikes me: People have been engaging in war, rape, and murder since before the existence of modern humans (even Neandertals). Such cruelty is one of the few truly universal human traits. It seems to occur in almost every society on earth throughout history, no matter how advanced or primitive. Therefore all that cruelty is either a reflection of a common human sensation of something beyond that has existed since the beginning of humanity, or something innate in the way our consciousness works.


www.elevenland.com
 
2012-04-18 11:08:01 AM

Martian_Astronomer: P1: All innate human desires have objects that exist. (For instance, it is possible for hunger to be satisfied by food, which exists.)
P2: There is a desire for "we know not what" whose object cannot be identified.
C: If the object of this desire does not exist in this world, it must exist in another.


You had a pretty good critique of the argument already, but I'll add one thing:

"Innate" needs a stronger definition. What is the list of innate desires and how can we be sure they are innate?
 
2012-04-18 11:08:06 AM

Hebalo: Drasancas: Hebalo: You must be a pretty bitter person. Of course good things come from faith, from opening yourself up to possibilities and embracing a moral concept of say "do unto others".

At what point does "do unto others" come from faith? How does "do unto others" emerge from accepting claims without sufficient evidence?

It's illogical to help someone else without benefit or gain to yourself?


What does that have to do with accepting claims without sufficient evidence? If anything, helping others without gain is a logical and evidence based (non faith) standard of a cooperative society fighting for survival - making the behavior ripe for natural selection.

Good things can come from accepting claims without sufficient evidence (faith) about as well as a broken clock can correctly tell time twice a day. There's simply no mechanism for anything remotely coherent coming out of faith, because it has no mechanism. You just choose a belief and go - without any regard to fact, evidence, reason or logic.
 
2012-04-18 11:10:03 AM

Epicedion: rocketpants: It takes a special kind of stupid to convert to religion as an adult. You have to start early, so the cray cray can fully integrate into your developing mind.

On the other side of the coin, if you're indoctrinated as a child, it's very difficult to break free.

Converts, however, tend to be the most zealous adherents.


Like I said, a special kind of stupid.
 
2012-04-18 11:10:18 AM

Magorn: Here's the thing that always strikes me: People have been worshipping "God" and believing in an afterlife since before the existence of modern humans (even Neandertals ritually interred their dead and placed grave goods in the tombs). Having a religion is one of the few truly universal human traits. It seems to occur in almost every society on earth throughout history, no matter how advanced or primitive. Therefore all that spirituality is either a reflection of a common human sensation of something beyond that has existed since the beginning of humanity, or something innate in the way our consciousness works


The counterpoint is that many traits, such as sexual insecurity, are also universal, occurring in almost every society on earth throughout history. Therefore, being concerned about having a tiny weener is a either reflection of a common human sensation of a giant weener beyond that has existed since the beginning of humanity, or is something innate in the way our consciousness works.

I think it's far more reasonable to not require supernatural penises, but rather suggest that there's still a lot we don't know about how the brain works. In fact, it's widely known that we have very little idea about how the brain works, and our tools for studying it are based off supposition and not much else (see, e.g. PET scans that show dead salmon have feelings of compassion). Given that, the latter possibility is much more likely.
 
2012-04-18 11:10:39 AM
I grew up in a Methodist household with a minster father, a Sunday school teacher mother, and brother who became a big part of his church's youth group, so the odds were pretty much against me from the start. Yet I eventually did stop believing in God, and I did it by thinking. No, seriously. I realized that if I was going to believe in God, I needed a reason to believe he was real. Not a desire that he was real, but an actual reason. So I laid down in bed and thought for two straight hours, trying to think of a reason to believe in God. I couldn't come up with a single good reason, so there and then I chose to no longer believe in God.

I did give Christianity a chance to woo me back, though. About a year later, I sat down and read the Bible, from cover to cover. All it did was confirm my decision to leave the faith behind. While the Bible has some historical value, it is a terrible book to base a religion on, especially a religion in the modern world. It's very easy to see why most Christians have never read the Bible in its entirety. The book is a slog to read through, and in between all the positive quotes used to justify the faith are not-so-nice things. I am convinced that if more Christians actually read the Bible, there would be fewer Christians in the world.

Jake Havechek: C.S. Lewis was a coward.


Two years ago, I decided to give CS Lewis a chance and decided to read his "A Mere Christianity". It ended up being one of the worst books I have ever read. There was nothing - NOTHING - in Lewis' writing that sounded like a convincing argument for Christianity. I mean, one of his arguments essentially boiled down to this: "Jesus was either a madman for saying he was the Son of God, or he really was the Son of God, and since it's difficult to believe he was a madman, he must be the Son of God!" I was so disgusted with the book that I nearly threw it across the room.
 
2012-04-18 11:10:53 AM
The report is here (Word document). From the report:

"Another way of looking at change over time is to look at the item on consistency in beliefs about God over one's lifetime. Table 7 compares those shifting towards faith ("I believe in God now, but I didn't use to.") with those moving away from belief ("I don't believe in God now, but I used to."). In 2008 there was a net gain in belief across the life course in 12 countries and a decline in 17 countries. The gains averaged 4.1 points and the losses -7.0 points for an overall change of -2.4 points."
[...]
"Table 8A shows that in 2008 in 29 of 30 countries certain belief in God increased with age. The average increase from those 27 and younger to those 68+ was 20.0 points. Similarly, Table 8B indicates that in 2008 in 27 of 30 countries never believing in God fell with age. The average decrease was 13.7 points. Likewise, agreeing that there is a personal God increased with age in 2008 in 28 of 30 countries by an average of 15.8 points. Overall, belief increased with age in 83 of 89 comparisons (93%) and averaged +16.5 across the three measures."
[...]
"A comparison was also carried out of changes across time with cohort. It showed little clear indication overall of either aging or cohort effects. Across the five cohorts that could be tracked from 1998 to 2008 certain belief in God decreased in 64 instances and increased in 86 cases. Decreases and increases were exactly balanced (50% each) for the three cohorts under age 48 in 1998. Increases then grew to 63% for the 48-57 cohort in 1998, to 73% for the 58-67 cohort in 1998. This interaction further supports the idea that there is an aging effect in which belief increases as the anticipation of morality rises. But there is also some evidence of a cohort effect. Comparison of the entering cohorts (less than 28) in 1998 and 2008 indicates lower belief in 2008 than in 1998 in 77% of the countries; an average decline of 2.5 points. This suggests that new cohorts are starting adulthood with lower belief than earlier entering cohorts, perhaps due to growing secularization over time."
[...]
"While the age-group differences suggest the possibility of changes across cohorts that represent larger, more widespread, and longer-term declines in belief in God, these figures confound cohort and aging effects and the analysis suggests that a substantial component of the age-group differences results from aging effects rather than from changes across cohorts. This is supported by earlier analysis of church attendance and religious identification that indicates aging/life-cycle effects (Smith, 2009)."
 
2012-04-18 11:11:41 AM

Martian_Astronomer: Okay, so rather than the typical directionless mudslinging, would anyone like to discuss the C.S. Lewis' "Argument from Desire," since it is quite pertinent to the subject matter from this article? I've seen a couple of formulations, some better than others, but the most common one (from Wikipedia in this case,) goes like this.

P1: All innate human desires have objects that exist. (For instance, it is possible for hunger to be satisfied by food, which exists.)
P2: There is a desire for "we know not what" whose object cannot be identified.
C: If the object of this desire does not exist in this world, it must exist in another.


P1 is obviously false right off the bat.

I want a hoverboard and lightsaber and a holodeck, but sadly, none of those things actually exist.
 
2012-04-18 11:12:19 AM

Hebalo: Metaphysical Ham Sandwich: C)It doesn't take faith to embrace the concept of "do unto others." All it takes is empathy. A child understands this.

Good to see you're not being a dick about this.

What is the point of empathy? What does it gain you? How does it make you better?

/The problem I have with the so-called "new skeptics" is that they seemingly go out of their way to assholes about it. There's a big difference between knowing you're right, and ensuring everyone else knows it too.


Tone troll. Got it.

You do feel good when you help others. You improve your station with them and thereby get benefits from them and society at large.
 
2012-04-18 11:12:42 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Well, since the number of newborns who believe in God is exactly zero, that would stand to reason.


www.jesus-explained.org

Might disagree
 
2012-04-18 11:13:00 AM

Jim_Callahan: Also, most likely this trend has more to do with ever-increasing proportions of the population being educated with each generation than people actually converting.


No - go read the study that I linked to above... They were actually comparing the beliefs of cohorts in 1998 and the beliefs of those same cohorts in 2008.
They also noted the trend you mention - younger populations are more secular, and becoming more so. But, independent of that, they noted that people do become more religious starting around age 45.
 
2012-04-18 11:13:38 AM
You know who wasn't afraid in his old age?

Muthafarking Bertrand Russell!

img27.imageshack.us
 
2012-04-18 11:13:39 AM

Arxane: There was nothing - NOTHING - in Lewis' writing that sounded like a convincing argument for Christianity. I mean, one of his arguments essentially boiled down to this: "Jesus was either a madman for saying he was the Son of God, or he really was the Son of God, and since it's difficult to believe he was a madman, he must be the Son of God!"


Also known as the Lewis' "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" trilemma.
 
2012-04-18 11:14:08 AM

T-Servo: Actually, I completely agree. Which is why it's better for me not to even bother with God, so I have no higher power to complain to.


thats actually more in line with particular beliefs. I still believe in a "God" but the idea that he is or should be concerned with humans seems hubristic.
 
2012-04-18 11:15:50 AM

Forgot_my_password_again: Baryogenesis: God not stopping genocide because he's using it as a lesson for humans is absolutely disgusting.

Its not about teaching us anything. Humans did that to each other. They had a choice and that was their choice. Other humans have a choice to either stop it or ignore it.

free will is a biatch when it means we have to deal with our choices


You were originally arguing a version of the "teaching defense".

Forgot_my_password_again: or [God] decided we were big boys and should try to solve our own problems.


As in, God is teaching us to solve our own problems. God has some reason to not "clean up" after us in order to teach humans a lesson. Genocide as a teaching aide is farking sick.
 
2012-04-18 11:16:19 AM
"I tell my kids, 'This is not the same person I grew up with. You are looking at an old woman who is trying to get into Heaven.' "

-Bill Cosby.

My mother has gone headlong into a Prosperity Gospel church her father died. Reads Ken Ham and the Banana Crew now.

The holidays are "fun", to say the least.
 
2012-04-18 11:17:03 AM

rocketpants: Epicedion: rocketpants: It takes a special kind of stupid to convert to religion as an adult. You have to start early, so the cray cray can fully integrate into your developing mind.

On the other side of the coin, if you're indoctrinated as a child, it's very difficult to break free.

Converts, however, tend to be the most zealous adherents.

Like I said, a special kind of stupid.


I'm going tho throw a flag on this.

There are sane religions, such as Unitarian Universalism. It's like anything - there are people who take things too far.

To quote Hobbes, life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" and anything that helps one get through the day is ok with me as long as it doesn't make life harder for others. On it's face, religion is cool. It's just when the followers decide to impose their will on others that it gets shiatty.
 
2012-04-18 11:19:25 AM
> and I did it by thinking.

This is difficult for me to explain, but you can't think yourself into God. As soon as you have God figured out, you don't have God. Because he is greater than anything we can imagine. You have to get it from your head to your heart.
 
2012-04-18 11:19:40 AM

Nana's Vibrator: The craziest religious people I've ever met are people who have "found God" later in life.
Most priests and lifetime churchgoers I've met are happy and simple and roll their eyes at idealist newcomers.


There's no one more zealous and annoying than a convert. This applies to everything, not just religion.
 
2012-04-18 11:20:31 AM
Because stupid people get stupider with age. It's called dementia.
 
2012-04-18 11:21:09 AM

Publikwerks: To quote Hobbes, "we're here to devour each other alive" and anything that helps one get through the day is ok with me as long as it doesn't make life harder for others.


FTFY.
www.progressiveboink.com
 
2012-04-18 11:21:23 AM

Forgot_my_password_again: I still believe in a "God" but the idea that he is or should be concerned with humans seems hubristic.


Why do you bother then?
 
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