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(Yahoo)   Teller of 'Penn and Teller' fame suing alleged magic-trick thief; Teller is not expected to testify   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 129
    More: Misc, cashier, Courthouse News Service, Stroudsburg, Penn & Teller, Carlos Mencia, comedy duo, legal name, Gerard Dogge  
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12749 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Apr 2012 at 1:03 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-17 09:37:57 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-04-17 09:53:29 AM  
If you copyright a trick is it like a patent application, with detailed specifications and diagrams on how it's done? Or does one just say "I made this trick, I can't tell you how it works but I want it copyrighted"?
 
2012-04-17 09:58:27 AM  

Slaxl: If you copyright a trick is it like a patent application, with detailed specifications and diagrams on how it's done? Or does one just say "I made this trick, I can't tell you how it works but I want it copyrighted"?


You know how I know you didn't read the article?

"When Teller registered a copyright for his trick in 1983, he even included a detailed illustration explaining the details of the routine, during which he appears to clip the petals of a rose from a distance while interacting with the rose's shadow. You can view an image of the copyright illustration Teller created in 1983."
 
2012-04-17 10:03:56 AM  
/approves
 
2012-04-17 10:08:35 AM  
images.zap2it.com

/approves
 
2012-04-17 10:09:17 AM  

TNel: Slaxl: If you copyright a trick is it like a patent application, with detailed specifications and diagrams on how it's done? Or does one just say "I made this trick, I can't tell you how it works but I want it copyrighted"?

You know how I know you didn't read the article?

"When Teller registered a copyright for his trick in 1983, he even included a detailed illustration explaining the details of the routine, during which he appears to clip the petals of a rose from a distance while interacting with the rose's shadow. You can view an image of the copyright illustration Teller created in 1983."


Shucks. I got down as far as the mention of him copyrighting it then gave up reading to come here to post. A lesson to all would-be non readers of articles.
 
2012-04-17 10:09:33 AM  

Slaxl: If you copyright a trick is it like a patent application, with detailed specifications and diagrams on how it's done? Or does one just say "I made this trick, I can't tell you how it works but I want it copyrighted"?


Have you ever seen Penn and Teller's act? They explain most of the tricks right on front street. Very cool stuff.

Teller's Shadow Trick, though... that's seriously HIS TRICK. Even if you can do it, it's kind of silly to even try because it would be like calling yourself Andre the Giant. Even if you're really big, you're no Andre.
 
2012-04-17 10:26:26 AM  
For those of you that haven't seen the trick in question. YouTube (new window)
 
2012-04-17 10:40:12 AM  
The Hollywood Reporter notes that Teller filed his complaint under the name "Teller, an individual," rather than his full legal name.

I remember reading in one of Penn & Teller's books that he legally changed his name to just "Teller." A quick glance at Wikipedia backs me up (and cites his biography). Someone didn't do their research.
 
2012-04-17 10:43:35 AM  
www.blogcdn.com
 
2012-04-17 11:19:10 AM  
I've heard Teller speak in person, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.
 
2012-04-17 11:30:01 AM  
I can see two sides of this issue. One side of this says yes you should not copy the magical tricks of the other tricksters because to do this you are portraying the self of you to be much like the Riddler of the comic book of Mr. Batman and Ms. Robin rather than to be the good trickster. The other side of this says that I could see a reason why one might do the trick by stealing the trick to trick the other trickster. I am not the judge of this but if I was the judge of this then I would see two sides of this.

There is the side that says you do not steal the jokes of others. There is the same side of this that says that once Ryback does the same move of Goldberg in the wrestling ring then he is the phoney person. Or if you are Rick Santorum and you hate the gay people because you are the latent homosexual you are merely stealing the copyrighted viewpoint of the Fred Phelps who have come before you. In the other words do not steal the intellectualar properties of others as they might wish to bring you to the court of law and ask for the reception of compensatory and punitive damages with the latter amount to not exceed the ratio of 10:1 because of the decision of the Supreme Court from the United States of the Americas in the case of Al Gore versus BMW Automobile Company, Inc..

Now listen the other side of this says people borrow from other people all the time and do not waste the time of the court for these matters because Loki. That is why. The First Amendment for the Constitution score of 18 if you are using the old rules says that you do not infringe on the freedom of the religion of others and Loki was the trickster who would probably get the kick of the replies of you all because of the tricking and then he would also trick you into thinking that you are not in the politics thread by putting this to the main page and not on the entertainment page but you would be tricked into believing this and would you sue Loki? No you would not because Senator of the Flyover State of Nebraska named Ernest P. Chambers has already attempted to sue a deity which is blessing Christians and so this would just be the same but for the Norse god. Also though if you were to try to do the serving to Loki with the subpoena he might tell the Sheriff of Nottingham who does the service NO THE NAME OF ME IS THOR. I AM NOT THE LOKI YOU ARE LOOKING FOR. He would then wave the hand of him and the stormtroopers would no longer file the suit.

For this reason I believe that Helen Keller should file the suit against Mister Teller. And also the Gillette razor company should sue Mister Penn. What do you think of this the Fark.com website posting friends of me?
 
2012-04-17 11:32:29 AM  
In before someone posts the guy from Arrested Development.
 
2012-04-17 11:34:33 AM  
Nevermind
 
2012-04-17 11:46:15 AM  
I guess they aren't Libertarians who believe "knowledge wants to be free".
 
2012-04-17 11:47:50 AM  

vygramul: I guess they aren't Libertarians who believe "knowledge wants to be free".


Not when there's money involved with their parlor tricks.
 
2012-04-17 11:49:59 AM  
I'm pretty sure I saw Teller in a speaking role, some years ago. I think it was an HBO movie about baseball, he was a team manager or something? (checking IMDB) Ah! There it is, "Long Gone"!
 
2012-04-17 12:22:36 PM  

Slaxl: If you copyright a trick is it like a patent application, with detailed specifications and diagrams on how it's done? Or does one just say "I made this trick, I can't tell you how it works but I want it copyrighted"?


Illusion, Slaxl. A trick is something a whore does for money.

/or candy
 
2012-04-17 01:05:41 PM  
"And for my next trick, I'll make the article magically disappear for mobile users!"
 
2012-04-17 01:08:44 PM  

The_Sponge: I've heard Teller speak in person, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.


Yeah.. people tend to forget two things about Teller:
1. He talks everywhere but on-stage when he's in character.
2. He's not short. He's 5'10. Penn is just stupid tall.
 
2012-04-17 01:09:02 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "And for my next trick, I'll make the article magically disappear for mobile users!"


For you:

Teller of 'Penn and Teller' fame suing alleged magic-trick thief
By Eric Pfeiffer

Magic performer Teller, right, is suing over an allegedly stolen trick (AP)

He's almost as famous for refusing to speak publicly as he is for his magic tricks, but world-renowned illusionist Teller is ready to speak out in court in order to stop an alleged thief he says stole a signature act from the duo Penn and Teller.

Raymond Joseph Teller, 64, filed a federal complaint against a Dutch entertainer, Gerard Dogge, who has allegedly misappropriated Teller's "Shadows" routine, according to Courthouse News Service. Dogge has been offering to sell the secret of Teller's "Shadows" performance to the highest bidder.

According to Teller's complaint, Dogge has been performing the trick without permission. Teller first copyrighted the trick in 1983. The Hollywood Reporter notes that Teller filed his complaint under the name "Teller, an individual," rather than his full legal name. The paper also reports that acts such as "Shadows" can, in fact, be copyrighted as "pantomime" routines.

Dogge, who performs under the name "Gerard Bakardy," posted a video of the routine on YouTube, entitled "Rose & Her Shadow." The video was removed after Teller filed his complaint. Before filing the complaint, Teller contacted Dogge by phone and offered an undisclosed amount of money in return for Dogge not revealing the details of his trick. The two were reportedly not able to reach an agreement. Dogge was offering to reveal the trick to anyone who paid him $3,050.

When Teller registered a copyright for his trick in 1983, he even included a detailed illustration explaining the details of the routine, during which he appears to clip the petals of a rose from a distance while interacting with the rose's shadow. You can view an image of the copyright illustration Teller created in 1983.

The complaint was filed in Nevada, where Penn and Teller live and perform.
 
2012-04-17 01:09:48 PM  
www.planet-familyguy.com

Hey, this isn't REAL magic- it's a trick!
Hey, everybody- he's a big fat phony!!
 
2012-04-17 01:09:49 PM  

lepton68: I'm pretty sure I saw Teller in a speaking role, some years ago. I think it was an HBO movie about baseball, he was a team manager or something? (checking IMDB) Ah! There it is, "Long Gone"!


Came to say this. Freakin LOVE that movie -- and Teller is actually quite good in it. He plays a sniveling privedledge daddy's boy suck up and is evil and pathetic at the same time.

Stupid HBO needs to release it on DVD. My VHS copy has long been worn to the point of unwatchability...
 
2012-04-17 01:10:36 PM  

The_Sponge: I've heard Teller speak in person, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.


Actually you fell for Penn's ventriloquism trick.
 
2012-04-17 01:12:37 PM  
His cameo on Tosh.0 was awesome.
 
2012-04-17 01:13:04 PM  

meow said the dog: I can see two sides of this issue. One side of this says yes you should not copy the magical tricks of the other tricksters because to do this you are portraying the self of you to be much like the Riddler of the comic book of Mr. Batman and Ms. Robin rather than to be the good trickster. The other side of this says that I could see a reason why one might do the trick by stealing the trick to trick the other trickster. I am not the judge of this but if I was the judge of this then I would see two sides of this.

There is the side that says you do not steal the jokes of others. There is the same side of this that says that once Ryback does the same move of Goldberg in the wrestling ring then he is the phoney person. Or if you are Rick Santorum and you hate the gay people because you are the latent homosexual you are merely stealing the copyrighted viewpoint of the Fred Phelps who have come before you. In the other words do not steal the intellectualar properties of others as they might wish to bring you to the court of law and ask for the reception of compensatory and punitive damages with the latter amount to not exceed the ratio of 10:1 because of the decision of the Supreme Court from the United States of the Americas in the case of Al Gore versus BMW Automobile Company, Inc..

Now listen the other side of this says people borrow from other people all the time and do not waste the time of the court for these matters because Loki. That is why. The First Amendment for the Constitution score of 18 if you are using the old rules says that you do not infringe on the freedom of the religion of others and Loki was the trickster who would probably get the kick of the replies of you all because of the tricking and then he would also trick you into thinking that you are not in the politics thread by putting this to the main page and not on the entertainment page but you would be tricked into believing this and would you sue Loki? No you would not because Senator of ...


www.buddytv.com

Wha? You can't STEAL a joke, bro!
 
2012-04-17 01:13:04 PM  

Slaxl: TNel: Slaxl: If you copyright a trick is it like a patent application, with detailed specifications and diagrams on how it's done? Or does one just say "I made this trick, I can't tell you how it works but I want it copyrighted"?

You know how I know you didn't read the article?

"When Teller registered a copyright for his trick in 1983, he even included a detailed illustration explaining the details of the routine, during which he appears to clip the petals of a rose from a distance while interacting with the rose's shadow. You can view an image of the copyright illustration Teller created in 1983."

Shucks. I got down as far as the mention of him copyrighting it then gave up reading to come here to post. A lesson to all would-be non readers of articles.


I thought not reading the articles was the whole point.
 
2012-04-17 01:14:15 PM  
Saw them for the first time this past weekend, including this trick. Good stuff. If you ever do go see the show, splurge for seats up close, because tricks like this are hard to appreciate from the second or third decks unless you're a goddamned eagle.
 
2012-04-17 01:14:16 PM  

Forty-Two: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "And for my next trick, I'll make the article magically disappear for mobile users!"

For you:

Teller of 'Penn and Teller' fame suing alleged magic-trick thief
By Eric Pfeiffer

Magic performer Teller, right, is suing over an allegedly stolen trick (AP)

He's almost as famous for refusing to speak publicly as he is for his magic tricks, but world-renowned illusionist Teller is ready to speak out in court in order to stop an alleged thief he says stole a signature act from the duo Penn and Teller.

Raymond Joseph Teller, 64, filed a federal complaint against a Dutch entertainer, Gerard Dogge, who has allegedly misappropriated Teller's "Shadows" routine, according to Courthouse News Service. Dogge has been offering to sell the secret of Teller's "Shadows" performance to the highest bidder.

According to Teller's complaint, Dogge has been performing the trick without permission. Teller first copyrighted the trick in 1983. The Hollywood Reporter notes that Teller filed his complaint under the name "Teller, an individual," rather than his full legal name. The paper also reports that acts such as "Shadows" can, in fact, be copyrighted as "pantomime" routines.

Dogge, who performs under the name "Gerard Bakardy," posted a video of the routine on YouTube, entitled "Rose & Her Shadow." The video was removed after Teller filed his complaint. Before filing the complaint, Teller contacted Dogge by phone and offered an undisclosed amount of money in return for Dogge not revealing the details of his trick. The two were reportedly not able to reach an agreement. Dogge was offering to reveal the trick to anyone who paid him $3,050.

When Teller registered a copyright for his trick in 1983, he even included a detailed illustration explaining the details of the routine, during which he appears to clip the petals of a rose from a distance while interacting with the rose's shadow. You can view an image of the copyright illustration Teller created in 1983.

The complaint was filed in Nevada, where Penn and Teller live and perform.


Thank you!
 
2012-04-17 01:17:05 PM  
Wow, now I see that Teller is just more gutter slime using hired guns to enforce his will over others.

EABOD & DIAF

/ also, their HBO show was filled with straw-man arguments and half-baked logic
// they don't seem to understand that you can't prove a negative
/// but I guess it paid well
 
2012-04-17 01:17:15 PM  
I'm looking forward to his autobiography, Teller Speaks!

Fortunately you can't copyright titles, so he won't be sued by the estate of Harpo Marx for rippiing off Harpo Speaks!, which is apparently a good and very funny book. Certainly the stories about Harpo Marx are as funny or funnier than anything done on stage. And he knew many people whose lives were as funny as his own to say the least.
 
2012-04-17 01:18:10 PM  

reverendsaintjay: For those of you that haven't seen the trick in question. YouTube (new window)


Looks like the "stems" are just cable housings with loose petals jammed in them, and either a pusher pushes them out or they're wedged on a cable and when the cable is pulled they unwedge and fall free on command.

It's not a technically remarkable trick, just a great presentation.
 
2012-04-17 01:18:34 PM  

Mugato: vygramul: I guess they aren't Libertarians who believe "knowledge wants to be free".

Not when there's money involved with their parlor tricks.


Libertarians aren't necessarily libertarians. More importantly, social issues are different than fiscal issues from any party viewpoint. Basically, stop being a douche.
 
2012-04-17 01:18:39 PM  
Hmm, I seem to remember reading something back when they first started to become famous that they were kicked out of the magician's guild (or some such organization) for publicly revealing the secrets to many magic tricks. Not sure if this was true or bad memory, but if so then this is quite an ironic story.
 
2012-04-17 01:19:05 PM  

Kyro: 2. He's not short. He's 5'10. Penn is just stupid tall.


I've got a couple of pictures of me standing next to P&T. Teller's about the same height as my 5'8" wife, and Penn's about two inches taller than me and I'm 6'3". I don't know if that makes Penn "stupid tall"--not compared with a pro basketball player, anyway.

The funny thing about my meetings with Teller is that the first time I met him he was gabbling away to everybody, and the second time he was completely silent...I'm sure if you asked him about the second time he'd say he didn't have anything to say.
 
2012-04-17 01:20:45 PM  

lepton68: I'm pretty sure I saw Teller in a speaking role, some years ago. I think it was an HBO movie about baseball, he was a team manager or something? (checking IMDB) Ah! There it is, "Long Gone"!


He also spoke at the end of Penn and Teller Get Killed, after Penn...got killed.
 
2012-04-17 01:21:49 PM  

Mock26: Hmm, I seem to remember reading something back when they first started to become famous that they were kicked out of the magician's guild (or some such organization) for publicly revealing the secrets to many magic tricks. Not sure if this was true or bad memory, but if so then this is quite an ironic story.


I imagine it's because they explicitly say the tricks aren't magic(and that people that believe in magic are morons), plus they do show you how some tricks work in general(by showing off how good Teller is at sleight of hand mostly).
 
2012-04-17 01:24:10 PM  
farm5.staticflickr.com

Is so disappoint after seeing what it really was.
 
2012-04-17 01:24:26 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
Not very well closeted Log Cabin Republicans demand to be treated with respect by the gay community


Tip o' the hat to Sybarite. I'm not sure what your point was, but I'll defend to the death your right to post funny pictures in threads.
 
2012-04-17 01:26:25 PM  

bhcompy: Mock26: Hmm, I seem to remember reading something back when they first started to become famous that they were kicked out of the magician's guild (or some such organization) for publicly revealing the secrets to many magic tricks. Not sure if this was true or bad memory, but if so then this is quite an ironic story.

I imagine it's because they explicitly say the tricks aren't magic(and that people that believe in magic are morons), plus they do show you how some tricks work in general(by showing off how good Teller is at sleight of hand mostly).


I think that's the difference- they aren't claiming to violate the laws of physics. They admit this is all an illusion, and they even show how some of the things are done.

They're just really damn good showmen and are friggin' astonishingly awesome at sleight of hand. That is why you go see them, not because you think they're actually able to do these things. You know it's a trick and can't possibly work like it looks like. They admit as much.

Knowing how a trick works doesn't necessarily mean it's now boring. Hell, sometimes that makes it that much more impressive because you can see the work they put in to make it look seamless.
 
2012-04-17 01:30:36 PM  

Mock26: Hmm, I seem to remember reading something back when they first started to become famous that they were kicked out of the magician's guild (or some such organization) for publicly revealing the secrets to many magic tricks. Not sure if this was true or bad memory, but if so then this is quite an ironic story.


That is what I came to say. The IRONIC tag missed his chance. He could've actually been at the right place at the right time.

/i did love watching them reveal all those tricks.
 
2012-04-17 01:30:44 PM  

brantgoose: I'm looking forward to his autobiography, Teller Speaks!

Fortunately you can't copyright titles, so he won't be sued by the estate of Harpo Marx for rippiing off Harpo Speaks!, which is apparently a good and very funny book. Certainly the stories about Harpo Marx are as funny or funnier than anything done on stage. And he knew many people whose lives were as funny as his own to say the least.


You absolutely CAN copyright a title. I can't make a movie and call it "The Empire Strikes Back". This example, however, would likely qualify as parody, not trademark infringement.
 
2012-04-17 01:32:00 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "And for my next trick, I'll make the article magically disappear for mobile users!"


I just laughed out loud.
 
2012-04-17 01:36:18 PM  

Forty-Two: I remember reading in one of Penn & Teller's books that he legally changed his name to just "Teller." A quick glance at Wikipedia backs me up (and cites his biography). Someone didn't do their research.


There's a rule in journalism: if your mother tells you she loves you, verify it. Unless she's a hot and you're afraid someone else is going to break the story first.
 
2012-04-17 01:37:41 PM  

akula: Knowing how a trick works doesn't necessarily mean it's now boring. Hell, sometimes that makes it that much more impressive because you can see the work they put in to make it look seamless.


Usually when they show how a trick works it's a setup for a new or improved version of the same trick that could not have worked in the way they showed. Basically it's part of their act and pushing other 'magicians' to innovate instead of using the same tired old crap.

On the other hand they are trashing other magicians tricks while producing their own versions. That is kind of a dick move, but that's capitalism for you.
 
2012-04-17 01:37:58 PM  

HailRobonia: The_Sponge: I've heard Teller speak in person, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.

Actually you fell for Penn's ventriloquism trick.



I LOL'd.

/Now that would have been an awesome trick.
//Especially since Penn was currently sitting inside a basket with swords poked into it.
 
2012-04-17 01:38:39 PM  

Trivia Jockey: You absolutely CAN copyright a title. I can't make a movie and call it "The Empire Strikes Back". This example, however, would likely qualify as parody, not trademark infringement.


Someone should tell these people:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_9?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Aempire+stri k es+back%2Cn%3A!1000%2Cn%3A3377866011&bbn=1000&keywords=empire+strikes+ back&ie=UTF8&qid=1334684183&rnid=1000
 
2012-04-17 01:39:24 PM  

Trivia Jockey: You absolutely CAN copyright a title. I can't make a movie and call it "The Empire Strikes Back". This example, however, would likely qualify as parody, not trademark infringement.


Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases. You are wrong, and lazy.
 
2012-04-17 01:39:51 PM  

akula: bhcompy: Mock26: Hmm, I seem to remember reading something back when they first started to become famous that they were kicked out of the magician's guild (or some such organization) for publicly revealing the secrets to many magic tricks. Not sure if this was true or bad memory, but if so then this is quite an ironic story.

I imagine it's because they explicitly say the tricks aren't magic(and that people that believe in magic are morons), plus they do show you how some tricks work in general(by showing off how good Teller is at sleight of hand mostly).

I think that's the difference- they aren't claiming to violate the laws of physics. They admit this is all an illusion, and they even show how some of the things are done.

They're just really damn good showmen and are friggin' astonishingly awesome at sleight of hand. That is why you go see them, not because you think they're actually able to do these things. You know it's a trick and can't possibly work like it looks like. They admit as much.

Knowing how a trick works doesn't necessarily mean it's now boring. Hell, sometimes that makes it that much more impressive because you can see the work they put in to make it look seamless.


Have you ever seem them do the cups and balls trick with clear plastic cups? They do it so fast and with such well choreographed precision. Even though you can see through the cups and they are explaining exactly how it is done you still have can't follow what the fark they are doing.
 
2012-04-17 01:40:47 PM  
There not tricks!! They are illusions! A trick is something a whore does for money!
 
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