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(My Fox NY)   Mob of anarchists attack NYC Starbucks, leaving everyone inside jittery   (myfoxny.com) divider line 129
    More: Misc, NYC Starbucks, anarchists  
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5270 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2012 at 10:09 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-16 01:56:02 PM
wtf. Starbucks? REALLY? Gee, could they pick a more PETTY target?

Can't wait till the next time I'm in that particular SBux.
 
2012-04-16 02:00:04 PM

Tsar_Bomba1: They should try that stunt in a state that has conceal-carry...


Simple, they'll request police protection during the march.
 
2012-04-16 02:21:48 PM

RanDomino: Tman144
The police don't burn towns to the ground and enslave the population.

The police are the enforcer arm of the bourgeoisie, and where's the profit in what you describe? It's useful for establishing power, and many, many such atrocities were committed toward that end, but why randomly slaughter your own cattle?

Liberate these people with what, exactly?

Not the gangsters; the people they exploit. If they run rackets, protect people from the racketeers, for example. Those people DO want to be liberated. And what is capitalism, as far as the average worker is concerned, but a very sophisticated and well-established racket?

if YOU choose not to use force

Who said anything about that?


There is not enough facepalm in the world for the stupidity that has been falling out of your mouth. Really, you're going to compare capitalism to racketeers? Oh, not that capitalism doesn't have plenty of flaws, but really, one leaves you with your legs busted and your wife and kids raped. The other leaves you...working an 8-5 at a potentially shiatty job. Yep, those are totally equivalents!

Your entire idea is based on rule by force, and it's a rule by force FAR beyond what we have today. As someone already pointed out, take out government power and other groups will rise to fill the void, and there will be many that are NOT nice people and are FAR nastier than the fat, corrupt blobs on Capitol Hill. You compare police jackassery to drug cartels? Are you kidding me? Cops can be assholes, but they are nothing compared to the horror you'll find from drug runners in Mexico. Dissenters get beheaded and hung from overpasses. Your entire worldview is based on people somehow magically being nice and at the same time fending off vicious bands of crooks without a care in the world for the value of your life or anyone else's. Vigilante justice is the rule of the day and you can find out very quickly that the "virtuous" groups will either fall to those who prey on them or become just as vicious simply to survive.

All ideals and no idea. I've seen this shiat spouted before and every time (this one included), the person espousing anarchy will never realize, despite plenty of points, that this is completely unworkable. There are simply too many assholes out there. Hell, nobody has even gone into all the public services that you apparently take for granted.
 
2012-04-16 02:49:22 PM
Durendal
one leaves you with your legs busted and your wife and kids raped. The other leaves you...working an 8-5 at a potentially shiatty job.

comparing one worst-case scenario to another average scenario...

Your entire idea is based on rule by force, and it's a rule by force FAR beyond what we have today. As someone already pointed out, take out government power and other groups will rise to fill the void, and there will be many that are NOT nice people and are FAR nastier than the fat, corrupt blobs on Capitol Hill. You compare police jackassery to drug cartels? Are you kidding me? Cops can be assholes, but they are nothing compared to the horror you'll find from drug runners in Mexico. Dissenters get beheaded and hung from overpasses. Your entire worldview is based on people somehow magically being nice and at the same time fending off vicious bands of crooks without a care in the world for the value of your life or anyone else's. Vigilante justice is the rule of the day and you can find out very quickly that the "virtuous" groups will either fall to those who prey on them or become just as vicious simply to survive.

blah blah blah
You think we don't know all this?
We know exactly what the stakes are.

There are simply too many assholes out there.

About 3-5% of the population, yes. The vast majority of the rest are basically opportunists who prefer stability over freedom or self-determination nine times out of ten. Unfortunately for them, stability does not last forever; the current period of it in particular is coming to an end soon, whether caused by anarchists or not.

Hell, nobody has even gone into all the public services that you apparently take for granted.

I could discuss that, but you're only interested in blathering.
 
2012-04-16 02:53:49 PM
the current period of it in particular is coming to an end soon

my point being that you can either organize, or face the mobs, gangsters, and warlords on your own; in which case, good luck!
 
2012-04-16 02:54:20 PM

RanDomino: Half the shiat in the other one doesn't work, and the other half will get you killed.


Yeah, pretty much. I picked up a copy just to see what it was, and wasn't impressed. I oughta throw it out, but I just can't bring myself to throw out a book.
 
2012-04-16 03:07:57 PM
Noticeably F.A.T.
Yeah, pretty much. I picked up a copy just to see what it was, and wasn't impressed. I oughta throw it out, but I just can't bring myself to throw out a book.

needless to say, it was not written by an actual anarchist
 
2012-04-16 03:18:45 PM
So, their point was. . . . .

I domt care who you are, busting up a cafe full of random people makescyou a jerk.
 
2012-04-16 03:20:51 PM
Given that a state of anarchy is caused by a lack of government control, isn't this state of affairs EXACTLY what the mega corporations want?

One could argue that with their wishes for lack of government oversight, the people behind ALEC are anarchists. Aren't the Stand Your Ground Laws, which enable anyone to shoot anyone in the street, a form of anarchy?
 
2012-04-16 03:27:47 PM

Do you know the way to Mordor: Aren't the Stand Your Ground Laws, which enable anyone to shoot anyone in the street, a form of anarchy?


You don't actually know what a 'stand your ground' law is, do you?
 
2012-04-16 04:24:29 PM

RanDomino: Tman144
The police don't burn towns to the ground and enslave the population.

The police are the enforcer arm of the bourgeoisie, and where's the profit in what you describe? It's useful for establishing power, and many, many such atrocities were committed toward that end, but why randomly slaughter your own cattle?

The point is, you would not be the cattle in this situation. You are more like the buffalo that are slaughtered to make room for more farmland for the cattle. People who organize themselves into governments are generally more efficient than smaller, self governing groups. Sooner or later they're going to need more room to breathe, and guess at whose expenses that will come.

Liberate these people with what, exactly?

Not the gangsters; the people they exploit. If they run rackets, protect people from the racketeers, for example. Those people DO want to be liberated. And what is capitalism, as far as the average worker is concerned, but a very sophisticated and well-established racket?

Most people don't want to be liberated. Perhaps they are religious zealots, or are easily swayed by propaganda, or are just dumb, but generally, people will gladly let YOU die if it means they and their children live.

if YOU choose not to use force

Who said anything about that?


I'm going on the general principle of "anarchy," that force is to be avoided to hold a society together. So specifically, I'm talking about your reluctance to rely on police force, a necessary evil in a civilized society.
 
2012-04-16 04:42:58 PM
i.imgur.com

Anarcheeeee~
 
2012-04-16 04:58:30 PM
Buncha pansy-assed biatches gettin' all uppity at the big bad coffee shop. This is a perfect example of why these folks will never get their way: they forgot that in order to really convince people you can't turn them off with your actions.

If your actions are so extreme that you end up fracturing your own movement into smaller fragments then you're simply not effective at organizing. These people are the Tea Party of OWS (or the anarchist's movement) because they accomplish nothing but loud goofy rhetoric while compromising their own stated beliefs with their marginalizing idiotic behavior.

You wanna be an Anarchist? Don't start your meaningless little tirade at the Anarchist Book Fair for crying out loud. If you really wanna be an Anarchist than go quietly and under the radar, dismantling the system in an effective manner. Find ways to squander the resources of the state rather than trying and failing to break a Starbuck's window, or go home to the Northwest and whine it off.

Totally ineffective children. If this is the best you've got you better join the establishment quick because it's not going to get any easier. Sooner rather than later the people banging a Plexiglass window in Astor Place will be the most boring poetry slam gasbags on the planet. I don't believe you and am not impressed with your puny actions, biatch!

-Prove me wrong.
 
2012-04-16 05:50:44 PM

RanDomino: Those people DO want to be liberated.


No. They don't.

Until you guys understand that, you're just wasting oxygen and electricity.
 
2012-04-16 05:52:34 PM

RanDomino: Durendal
one leaves you with your legs busted and your wife and kids raped. The other leaves you...working an 8-5 at a potentially shiatty job.

comparing one worst-case scenario to another average scenario...

Your entire idea is based on rule by force, and it's a rule by force FAR beyond what we have today. As someone already pointed out, take out government power and other groups will rise to fill the void, and there will be many that are NOT nice people and are FAR nastier than the fat, corrupt blobs on Capitol Hill. You compare police jackassery to drug cartels? Are you kidding me? Cops can be assholes, but they are nothing compared to the horror you'll find from drug runners in Mexico. Dissenters get beheaded and hung from overpasses. Your entire worldview is based on people somehow magically being nice and at the same time fending off vicious bands of crooks without a care in the world for the value of your life or anyone else's. Vigilante justice is the rule of the day and you can find out very quickly that the "virtuous" groups will either fall to those who prey on them or become just as vicious simply to survive.

blah blah blah
You think we don't know all this?
We know exactly what the stakes are.


Three humiliating defeats marked by inexcusable tactical screwups on the Anarchists' side all three times. The Paris Commune was a defeat, too, but I won't blame the Anarchists for that because nine tenths of their program was Socialist rather than Anarchist; to their credit, the European socialists learned a few lessons from the mistakes the Commune made and changed their tactics some. The Anarchists have learned nothing, ever.
 
2012-04-16 07:36:40 PM

Lyonid: Golly, that embedded video sure improved my understanding of what transpired... o_O


I'm guessing there's supposed to be a voiceover. With that missing, it's more like an art piece. I kinda like it.
 
2012-04-16 07:40:55 PM
Tman144
The point is, you would not be the cattle in this situation. You are more like the buffalo that are slaughtered to make room for more farmland for the cattle. People who organize themselves into governments are generally more efficient than smaller, self governing groups. Sooner or later they're going to need more room to breathe, and guess at whose expenses that will come.

Historically, it's true that hordes of slaves and near-slaves that used agriculture beat hunter-gatherers by sheer numbers, despite the superior strength and skill of the latter. That's why I'm not a Primitivist.
More importantly, you seem to be implying that one or another kind of slave empire is inevitable. I'm going to categorically reject such an assertion. You're certainly never going to win with that kind of attitude.

Most people don't want to be liberated. Perhaps they are religious zealots, or are easily swayed by propaganda, or are just dumb, but generally, people will gladly let YOU die if it means they and their children live.

As I said to Durendal above, "The vast majority of the rest are basically opportunists who prefer stability over freedom or self-determination nine times out of ten. Unfortunately for them, stability does not last forever; the current period of it in particular is coming to an end soon, whether caused by anarchists or not." What it means is making sure people have a better option.

I'm going on the general principle of "anarchy," that force is to be avoided to hold a society together. So specifically, I'm talking about your reluctance to rely on police force, a necessary evil in a civilized society.

Instead of police, general militia training. The day-to-day activities of police that people see as good (responding to assault by individuals, traffic accidents, petty crimes, etc) can more than be handled by organized communities.


NationalHero
-Prove me wrong.

You're absolutely right. I have no idea what the fark is wrong with these idiots. I'm starting to call them "Egoists" rather than Anarchists; I'm not really sure what "Egoism" is but it seems to be a thing. Which is bad.


tirob
Three humiliating defeats marked by inexcusable tactical screwups on the Anarchists' side all three times.

Tactical screwups? Tell that to Makhno and Durruti. Strategic, I'll grant (letting Companys form a government? not linking Asturias and Catalonia? not offering national liberation to Morocco? wtffff. And when the Friends of Durruti group started arguing for a guerrilla war it was far too late. For Makhno I don't think there was much hope; maybe he should have tried to form pan-Russian alliances with other peasant groups but the Ukraine was just such a goddamn clusterfark). But not the same mistakes twice. You certainly won't find any group as willing to admit and learn from their past mistakes as Anarchists. Try to find a Marxist who doesn't blame their failures on someone else.

The Paris Commune was a defeat, too, but I won't blame the Anarchists for that because nine tenths of their program was Socialist rather than Anarchist

The Paris Commune was based on Proudhonian ideas.
 
2012-04-16 10:06:17 PM

RanDomino:

Makhno and Durruti


I might have added that the Anarchist movements in both the Ukraine and Catalonia were both dependent on the magnetic personalities of their leaders. Don't know about the Ukraine so well, but Spanish Anarchism never really survived Durruti.

Not linking Asturias to Catalonia? Impossible with the Franquistas holding all the territory between and including Saragossa and Pamplona. Offering national liberation to Morocco? Would have been an empty gesture in 1936/37 what with the Franquistas in control of the entire Spanish colony.

No, I meant tactical. The timing of the three anarchist uprisings/whatever they were was completely botched. Basically, the problem was similar all three times you mention; the Anarchists refused to subsume their movement to a left wing government that was fighting for its life against powerful right wing forces, and they rose. And the left wing government crushed the Anarchists each time, not omitting--predictably--to charge the Anarchists with being in league with that government's right wing enemies and thus successfully turning public opinion against them.

I thought I'd leave this here; it's from the Wikipedia article you linked about the Paris Commune. It's a list of decrees that the Commune put into effect:

the separation of church and state;
the remission of rents owed for the entire period of the siege (during which, payment had been suspended);
the abolition of night work in the hundreds of Paris bakeries;
the granting of pensions to the unmarried companions and children of National Guards killed on active service;
the free return, by the city pawnshops, of all workmen's tools and household items valued up to 20 francs, pledged during the siege; the Commune was concerned that skilled workers had been forced to pawn their tools during the war;
the postponement of commercial debt obligations, and the abolition of interest on the debts; and
the right of employees to take over and run an enterprise if it were deserted by its owner; the Commune, nonetheless, recognized the previous owner's right to compensation.

Not much Anarchism here--indeed, the business about separation of church and state presupposes that there is a state. But rather than argue this point, I'll say this: Assuming that the Commune was influenced by both Anarchists and Socialists, it was the Socialists who learned the lessons from its failure; French Socialism is alive and well today, while French Anarchism is a fringe of a fringe.

I wouldn't deny that Marxists blame their failures on everyone but themselves. I will also accept your claim that Anarchists admit their past mistakes--they've made so many of them!--but I dispute the idea that they ever learn from them. Anarchists have consistently pissed off, offended, and alienated everyone they come in contact with, whether right, left, or center. And are continuing to do so to this day if this episode in New York is any indication.
 
2012-04-16 10:13:15 PM

I_C_Weener: cig-mkr: Many participants at the sixth annual event tipped garbage cans and spray-painted anarchist symbols on businesses in the area.

They do this every year? Gotta love NYC

That explains the Starbucks anti-anarchist windows. Next year, I hear they are installing spigots along the eaves to spray the protestors with boiling hot java.


malvasiabianca.org

Look on the bright side, it was not a tea-party going on. Those people are the real scary one, I mean look at all the property damage and harassment of citizens they were involved in. Oh, they were civil and respectful to the community? Shoot, well there goes that talking point.
 
2012-04-16 11:56:44 PM

Gunny Walker: In a church? Do anarchists enjoy church?


Most don't. Their rally call is "No G-d's, no masters"
 
2012-04-17 01:02:34 AM
tirob
Not linking Asturias to Catalonia? Impossible with the Franquistas holding all the territory between and including Saragossa and Pamplona. Offering national liberation to Morocco? Would have been an empty gesture in 1936/37 what with the Franquistas in control of the entire Spanish colony.

Saragossa was taken by the Durruti column until September. Morocco, the Rif in particular, had frequently and recently revolted; the point would have been to encourage another try while the Spanish State was distracted.

Basically, the problem was similar all three times you mention; the Anarchists refused to subsume their movement to a left wing government that was fighting for its life against powerful right wing forces, and they rose. And the left wing government crushed the Anarchists each time, not omitting--predictably--to charge the Anarchists with being in league with that government's right wing enemies and thus successfully turning public opinion against them.

Yes, that's the main lesson we've learned- No more 'Popular Fronts'. When there is a social rupture, excise the State and its defenders entirely. They won't even wait until a good opportunity to betray us, so we can't give them a moment to get their bearings. However, killing them is unnecessary so long as they have no power.

Anarchists have consistently pissed off, offended, and alienated everyone they come in contact with, whether right, left, or center.

Of course; those are all political positions. We are uninterested in politics entirely. Only a small fraction of the population really is- those few members of the political class who see themselves as jockeying for the right to sit in the driver's seat. To the rest, it's war in heaven. Aren't those rare days when things stop working like festivals? The people who celebrate when their masters are overthrown are our constituency.

And are continuing to do so to this day if this episode in New York is any indication.

I'm starting to call the idiotic random window-smashers "Egoists" rather than Anarchists, as it seems to be the trend. There needs to be a split and they need to GTFO.
 
2012-04-17 04:07:10 AM
"The mob was unable to smash the thick protective plexiglass windows and there ended up being no damage to the store."

Link (new window)
 
2012-04-17 07:45:21 AM

RanDomino: tirob

Saragossa was taken by the Durruti column until September. Morocco, the Rif in particular, had frequently and recently revolted; the point would have been to encourage another try while the Spanish State was distracted.


The Durruti column never reached Saragossa. It was turned back by the tiny Insurgent air force before it got there. See Blood of Spain, Ronald Fraser, Pantheon, New York, 1979, p.134. The Rif had been pretty quiet since the Franco-Spanish capture of Abdelkrim in 1926; that so many Moroccans fought for the Insurgents during the civil war is a sign of just how complete the Insurgents' control of the colony was.

RanDomino: tirob

Yes, that's the main lesson we've learned- No more 'Popular Fronts'.


When have Anarchists participated in Popular Fronts? The Spanish Anarchists never formed part of the Popular Front in Spain. They allied themselves with the Republican government briefly at the start of the war, but never participated in it. Similarly, Makhno allied himself with the Red Army for a while, but was never a part of it. In this respect Makhno was a lot more like a Ukrainian "Hetman" than the leader of an anarchist movement; there were several such leaders in the Ukraine during the 1918-21 civil war in Russia.

Writing about Makhno reminds me that there was a strong nationalist undercurrent in both Ukrainian and Spanish anarchism. I don't think that Makhno ever articulated a Ukrainian nationalism, but the idea of an independent Ukrainian entity unaffiliated with Moscow had a long tradition in the Ukraine going back to the days of the Zaporozhian Sich. In Barcelona, the Anarchists were by and large Spanish-speaking migrants--or their descendants--who worked for (but who did not care for) Catalan-speaking factory owners. If Anarchists were hostile to Companys, it was at least partly because he spoke a different language than them, or at least he did some of the time. There's also this dude (new window), whom I suppose you have heard of, who mixed Anarchism with Indian nationalism.

RanDomino: tirob

egoists


Say what you like, when people think of Anarchists here these days it is these people who come to mind first. Some of them showed up at #Occupy events in various places and quickly made themselves unwelcome at them, too.
 
2012-04-17 01:07:55 PM
tirob
When have Anarchists participated in Popular Fronts? The Spanish Anarchists never formed part of the Popular Front in Spain. They allied themselves with the Republican government briefly at the start of the war, but never participated in it.

No 'Popular Fronts' or anything even resembling them. Anarchists participated in the Republican government, most infamously Garcia Oliver.

Similarly, Makhno allied himself with the Red Army for a while

This part right here- that's what we've learned not to do.

Say what you like, when people think of Anarchists here these days it is these people who come to mind first. Some of them showed up at #Occupy events in various places and quickly made themselves unwelcome at them, too.

The ones who weren't facilitating, or keeping the kitchens running, or building infrastructure, or making propaganda... If we call ourselves Anarchists, automatically nothing we do is good; if we do anything good, it is divorced from our being Anarchists. So we don't really care what the media says about us, because it's never going to be anything but hostile.
 
2012-04-17 03:57:31 PM
But who would win in a fight between the Joker and Keyser Söze?
 
2012-04-17 05:44:56 PM

RanDomino: tirob
When have Anarchists participated in Popular Fronts?

No 'Popular Fronts' or anything even resembling them. Anarchists participated in the Republican government, most infamously Garcia Oliver.


So he did, briefly, as did that Federica Montseny. I stand corrected.

RanDomino:
The ones who weren't facilitating, or keeping the kitchens running, or building infrastructure, or making propaganda... If we call ourselves Anarchists, automatically nothing we do is good; if we do anything good, it is divorced from our being Anarchists. So we don't really care what the media says about us, because it's never going to be anything but hostile.


The clowns who spray paint buildings, set fires, and break windows are soliciting (and getting) all the attention from the media, not the ones who do those things or who spend their time organizing workers. That Anarchism attracts such self-indulgent publicity hounds is hardly the media's fault.
 
2012-04-17 11:03:22 PM
tirob
So he did, briefly, as did that Federica Montseny. I stand corrected.

Also Segundo Blanco, but I think his participation was justified, as he used his position as Minister of Education to keep out Stalinist propaganda.

The clowns who spray paint buildings, set fires, and break windows are soliciting (and getting) all the attention from the media, not the ones who do those things or who spend their time organizing workers. That Anarchism attracts such self-indulgent publicity hounds is hardly the media's fault.

They're not publicity hounds. They're Egoists. And that's bad enough.
 
2012-04-18 10:28:46 AM

RanDomino: tirob

Also Segundo Blanco, but I think his participation was justified, as he used his position as Minister of Education to keep out Stalinist propaganda.


Just wanted to write a brief in defense of Garcia Oliver, whom you despise so much: I suspect that he argued in favor of disarming the Barcelona Anarchists because he saw them from the perspective of Madrid, where he was; that city was had been invested by the Franquistas for six months by May 1937, and I would guess that Garcia as much as anyone else there did not want Republican troops tied up in Barcelona when they were needed to protect the front lines.

RanDomino: tirob

They're not publicity hounds. They're Egoists. And that's bad enough.


We're arguing about nomenclature. The people we're talking about do what they do to get themselves on TV.
 
2012-04-18 02:56:12 PM
tirob
Just wanted to write a brief in defense of Garcia Oliver, whom you despise so much: I suspect that he argued in favor of disarming the Barcelona Anarchists because he saw them from the perspective of Madrid, where he was; that city was had been invested by the Franquistas for six months by May 1937, and I would guess that Garcia as much as anyone else there did not want Republican troops tied up in Barcelona when they were needed to protect the front lines.

I'm fairly certain he joined the Republican government well before that. In particular he was at the infamous meeting with Companys after the CNT-FAI put down the rebellion in Barcelona.

We're arguing about nomenclature. The people we're talking about do what they do to get themselves on TV.

That is the last thing on their minds. Believe me. I know them personally. I read what they say. I see what they say to each other. They don't give a fark about getting on TV.
 
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