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(Yahoo)   If there was one politician we needed to make brash and incendiary statements about the Israel-Palestine conflict, it's RON PAUL   (news.yahoo.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, Ron Paul, Palestine, Israelis, diplomatic missions of Israel, PLO, Jerusalem, Business Insiders, embassy  
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2874 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Apr 2012 at 5:26 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-15 07:13:35 PM  

Sock Ruh Tease: It's amazing how 99 comments turns to 44. That's when you know you're in a Derp Thread.


Yep. Quite interesting.
 
2012-04-15 07:14:17 PM  

Tatsuma:

As for them being ready for a viable state, 75% of Gazans under 21 and have no professional experience whatsoever. There are similar numbers for the other PA citizens.

Add this to the grip of terrorist groups on the population, and it does not paint a pretty picture for peace, unless there are major societal changes that happen.

75% of


So what if they're terrorists? Who cares? That doesn't deligitimaze them in any way.

You know who else in the Middle East suffers from chronic unemployment?
 
2012-04-15 07:14:52 PM  

glaurunge: So what if they're terrorists? Who cares? That doesn't deligitimaze them in any way.


That wasn't the point I was addressing at all.
 
2012-04-15 07:18:36 PM  

glaurunge: You know who else in the Middle East suffers from chronic unemployment?


Diplomats?
 
2012-04-15 07:18:56 PM  

Sock Ruh Tease: It's amazing how 99 comments turns to 44. That's when you know you're in a Derp Thread.


What? "Displayed 100 of 100 comments"

Fark farks around, but not like that.

Tatsuma: 75% of Gazans under 21 and have no professional experience whatsoever. There are similar numbers for the other PA citizens.


This part hurts a lot. So you've got a metric farkton of young people who have no place to go and nothing to do. It's much like an open wound being dipped repeatedly into swamp-water.

Yes, I agree that you need "two sides willing to make peace" (actually it's more than two sides in this case). At some point you have to see the recurring wounds in your antagonists. At some point you have to be the one to heal it. On some level, this is an eternal blood-feud. The winners of blood-feuds are the dead ones. You both seem to be breeding quite well, though. It's farking corny, but I'd like to use the Avatar of Ultima as an example of how you could succeed here. You're not perfect, and neither are they. Don't sulk in your own insolence is my only suggestion. I can guarantee you'll be at each others' throats if you continue as you are. At some point, you have to farking flush the toilet and clean it.
 
2012-04-15 07:25:25 PM  

Tatsuma: 75% of Gazans under 21 and have no professional experience whatsoever. There are similar numbers for the other PA citizens.


If you bomb them and cut off their water supply and rocket their kids, they'll have plenty of "experience".

How's that working out for you?
 
2012-04-15 07:29:00 PM  

casual disregard: Yes, I agree that you need "two sides willing to make peace" (actually it's more than two sides in this case). At some point you have to see the recurring wounds in your antagonists. At some point you have to be the one to heal it. On some level, this is an eternal blood-feud. The winners of blood-feuds are the dead ones. You both seem to be breeding quite well, though. It's farking corny, but I'd like to use the Avatar of Ultima as an example of how you could succeed here. You're not perfect, and neither are they. Don't sulk in your own insolence is my only suggestion. I can guarantee you'll be at each others' throats if you continue as you are. At some point, you have to farking flush the toilet and clean it.


farm4.static.flickr.com
 
2012-04-15 07:29:32 PM  

Eshkar: Actually Canada as a nation didn't exist yet, it was still Britain, it was the British Military... not Canada.


Okay, I have to at least correct this.

Canada was not just "Britain". The provinces of Lower and Upper Canada were a part of the British Empire. They had their own identities, legislative assemblies, media, and most of the people were not "British", because at the time, Lower Canada (present-day much of Québec) was the most populous colony and the majority of the population were Canadiens - french-speaking Canadians. In Upper Canada, a significant number of the population were Loyalists, ex-Americans who'd stayed loyal to the British crown and settled in Canada. Both Upper and Lower Canada had unrepresentative oligarchic governments with British toffs at the top of the food chain, which would eventually as a part of a struggle for political reform lead to the Rebellions of 1837-1838, but I'm straying from the main thread of the story.

The forces that repelled the American invasions of Canada were a mix of professional British troops, supporting Canadian militias (both French and English-speaking) and native allies. Some battles had no British involvement, such as the crucial Battle of Chateauguay fought by Canadien volunteers and Mohawks. There were a wide variety of Canadian militia forces involved, including a militia entirely of free negroes in Upper Canada.
 
2012-04-15 07:30:06 PM  

casual disregard: Yes, I agree that you need "two sides willing to make peace" (actually it's more than two sides in this case). At some point you have to see the recurring wounds in your antagonists. At some point you have to be the one to heal it. On some level, this is an eternal blood-feud. The winners of blood-feuds are the dead ones. You both seem to be breeding quite well, though. It's farking corny, but I'd like to use the Avatar of Ultima as an example of how you could succeed here. You're not perfect, and neither are they. Don't sulk in your own insolence is my only suggestion. I can guarantee you'll be at each others' throats if you continue as you are. At some point, you have to farking flush the toilet and clean it.


The Palestinians just need to realize if they live in peace for, say, three generations and don't respond to in any way to Israel's attempts to drive them all to suicide by economic starvation, then Israel might be willing to consider to look at their options in making an effort towards considering a peace plan. But until the Palestinians don't respond to any of their actions for that long they're free to keep going as they have been. And any action by any Palestinian any where resets the clock. As does anyone posting on the internet a criticism of Isreal's policies.
 
2012-04-15 07:30:42 PM  

casual disregard: Sock Ruh Tease: It's amazing how 99 comments turns to 44. That's when you know you're in a Derp Thread.

What? "Displayed 100 of 100 comments"

Fark farks around, but not like that.


he's referring to his Ignore list working. The politics tab is much more readable if you add the known trolls and filter out people responding to them*.


*not meant as a jab to anyone in particular in this thread.
 
2012-04-15 07:31:00 PM  
Ahh the middle east. Various retards fighting over a magic desert. What a great place
 
2012-04-15 07:40:40 PM  
Sock Ruh Tease

I see 52, but I haven't put Ishtar on ignore yet...
 
2012-04-15 07:41:56 PM  

lilplatinum: Ahh the middle east. Various retards fighting over a magic desert. What a great place


I think there may be some oil and water involved as well. And I don't mean that in a metaphorical sense.
 
2012-04-15 07:41:58 PM  
Anyways, I originally came to this thread to make the point that arguing about Israeli-Palestinian issues on the internet is very nearly the biggest possible waste of your energy and time. Nobody will convince anybody of anything in this particular discussion.

Sidebar on Ron Paul:
Perhaps all those Ron Paul Nevada after-sundown caucusgoers on CNN might have been correct when they were making statements like "Ron Paul is a great friend to Israel" and "I know Ron Paul loves Israel in his heart." I apologize for being baffled at your assurance that Ron Paul is pro-Israel, Nevada caucusgoers.
 
2012-04-15 07:48:12 PM  

fusillade762: lilplatinum: Ahh the middle east. Various retards fighting over a magic desert. What a great place

I think there may be some oil and water involved as well. And I don't mean that in a metaphorical sense.


The retards would still be fighting over the magic desert without the oil, we just wouldn't be involved.
 
2012-04-15 07:48:14 PM  

Tatsuma: As for them being ready for a viable state, 75% of Gazans under 21 and have no professional experience whatsoever. There are similar numbers for the other PA citizens.


And therefore what? Refuse them statehood while keeping them loosely boxed in by Israelis (not that anyone else in the middle east cares about them, of course) as a ghetto underclass until such time as they bootstrap themselves some education and professional experience?

My country gave the reservation system a try. Its a massive failure, and life still sucks for people living on them to this day. They will never amount to anything more than an unequal trading partner all but forced to abuse what laws don't apply on the reservation to sell vice, as well as be a source of smuggling and other illicit activities. And I honestly don't mean that as a slight against native americans in a racist manner. People born into a perpetual ghetto either escape the ghetto, or they remain stuck there. It would take a miracle to truly turn things around. And we are talking about a reservation full of people that get free citizenship if they want to leave, and are sitting in the middle of a wealthy nation.
 
2012-04-15 07:58:53 PM  

fusillade762: lilplatinum: Ahh the middle east. Various retards fighting over a magic desert. What a great place

I think there may be some oil and water involved as well. And I don't mean that in a metaphorical sense.


One of the big reasons Israel doesn't want to give up the Golan heights.
 
2012-04-15 07:59:35 PM  

ha-ha-guy: GAT_00: I don't think it should, but that has nothing to do with Israel. I'm pretty sure the only possible solution since both claim it is to make Jerusalem an open city, controlled by the UN.

The Free City of Danzig really didn't work all that well.


Only because the League of Nations had no power. The UN does have troops.
 
2012-04-15 08:08:49 PM  

casual disregard: Don't sulk in your own insolence is my only suggestion.


Hey. Don't deny him his sole pleasure in life.
 
2012-04-15 08:13:32 PM  
I don't get why this is surprising from Paul. It doesn't mean he is a big fan of Israel just because he believes they have the ability to decide which city is their capital. If they say that is their capital, that's where the embassy should be.
 
2012-04-15 08:14:06 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: fusillade762: lilplatinum: Ahh the middle east. Various retards fighting over a magic desert. What a great place

I think there may be some oil and water involved as well. And I don't mean that in a metaphorical sense.

One of the big reasons Israel doesn't want to give up the Golan heights.


Yuppers. Though you don't often hear the water factor mentioned anywhere.
 
2012-04-15 08:22:02 PM  

Tatsuma: That... is a plot twist I had not foreseen.

I still believe that its either

1) to deflect accusations of anti-semitism and association with white supremacists
2) trying to reach out to the evangelical crowd
3) both of those reasons

I have a hard time thinking that he truly believes that. Or he's being sly and saying it should be Israel's capital because it's Israel's right to make it so, and also simultaneously believe Israel has not right to exist in the first place.


lol, or it could be that Israel can do what Israel wants... He is for sovereignty of nations.. you know, nations can make their own decisions
 
2012-04-15 08:24:01 PM  

casual disregard: I don't recall any moment in USA history where a simple massing of troops provoked the other armies to attack us.


I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, and I am a graduate of the LA Unified School District, but I'd say "Cuban Missile Crisis"...?
 
2012-04-15 08:24:17 PM  

Smackledorfer: Tatsuma: As for them being ready for a viable state, 75% of Gazans under 21 and have no professional experience whatsoever. There are similar numbers for the other PA citizens.

And therefore what? Refuse them statehood while keeping them loosely boxed in by Israelis (not that anyone else in the middle east cares about them, of course) as a ghetto underclass until such time as they bootstrap themselves some education and professional experience?

My country gave the reservation system a try. Its a massive failure, and life still sucks for people living on them to this day. They will never amount to anything more than an unequal trading partner all but forced to abuse what laws don't apply on the reservation to sell vice, as well as be a source of smuggling and other illicit activities. And I honestly don't mean that as a slight against native americans in a racist manner. People born into a perpetual ghetto either escape the ghetto, or they remain stuck there. It would take a miracle to truly turn things around. And we are talking about a reservation full of people that get free citizenship if they want to leave, and are sitting in the middle of a wealthy nation.


Hey, we bought that land fair and square in the Louisiana Purchase. Those Sioux and Arapaho are just squatters.
 
2012-04-15 08:31:40 PM  

fusillade762: Yuppers. Though you don't often hear the water factor mentioned anywhere.


Hell, I remember when I learned as a kid that Israel had alpine/snow troops. They're in the damn mideast and they have cold weather troops just for the Golan heights.
 
2012-04-15 08:38:00 PM  

Smackledorfer: glaurunge: RELIGION!

This is why we have so much trouble having and keeping nice things.


Tell that to Stalin and Lenin...
 
2012-04-15 08:38:02 PM  

RoyBatty: casual disregard: I don't recall any moment in USA history where a simple massing of troops provoked the other armies to attack us.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, and I am a graduate of the LA Unified School District, but I'd say "Cuban Missile Crisis"...?


Alright, I'll concede the Cuban Missile Crisis if you can satisfy all of the following points:

1) The entire national borders of the USA were surrounded by foreign armies.
2) None of the foreign armies made any move to invade the USA.
3) USA regular army invaded foreign territories and totally banged the shiat out of everyone.
4) USA won the conflict handily and destroyed the credibility of most or all of the foreign armies involved therein.

That's kind of the angle I was, like, angling toward...

Let's not get all tangled up in facts, though. Recommend a solution befitting the existing problems. Now that would impress me.
 
2012-04-15 08:57:54 PM  

glaurunge: Unfortunately, war doesn't go by the rules of "finders keepers."


California, Utah, Nevada, et al beg to differ.

So does this guy:

www.unwinnable.com
 
2012-04-15 09:08:40 PM  

bobbette: Eshkar: Actually Canada as a nation didn't exist yet, it was still Britain, it was the British Military... not Canada.

Okay, I have to at least correct this.

Canada was not just "Britain". The provinces of Lower and Upper Canada were a part of the British Empire. They had their own identities, legislative assemblies, media, and most of the people were not "British", because at the time, Lower Canada (present-day much of Québec) was the most populous colony and the majority of the population were Canadiens - french-speaking Canadians. In Upper Canada, a significant number of the population were Loyalists, ex-Americans who'd stayed loyal to the British crown and settled in Canada. Both Upper and Lower Canada had unrepresentative oligarchic governments with British toffs at the top of the food chain, which would eventually as a part of a struggle for political reform lead to the Rebellions of 1837-1838, but I'm straying from the main thread of the story.

The forces that repelled the American invasions of Canada were a mix of professional British troops, supporting Canadian militias (both French and English-speaking) and native allies. Some battles had no British involvement, such as the crucial Battle of Chateauguay fought by Canadien volunteers and Mohawks. There were a wide variety of Canadian militia forces involved, including a militia entirely of free negroes in Upper Canada.


Still British Subjects. My point is that Canada as a nation didn't exist during the war of 1812. During the French Indian War in North America the 13 original US colonies also had their own governments and what not, each colony supplied their own militias and volunteer fighters. George Washington earned his respect during that war; the US colonies supplied a majority of the fighting power because the Brits were busy fighting the French at the time; but there was no United States yet, it was still a British property. So my point stands, saying Canada won the war of 1812 is like saying the USA won the French Indian War.
 
2012-04-15 09:25:48 PM  
The capitol of Vietnam is Hanoi and nearly every country in the world has located their embassies in Hanoi. The USA has its' embassy in Ho Chi Minh city.

Also, non-interventionism is the only thing Ron Paul has going for him. If he back-pedals from that, he has nothing.
 
2012-04-15 09:25:54 PM  

Tatsuma: Wolf_Blitzer: Exactly right. Now who's swapping reality for fantasies.

It's absolutely not comparable.

We are the literal descendent of the Israelis, we have kept our identity as such, we have kept our culture and all of our links to our forefathers.

The same can absolutely not be said about Italians versus Romans.


The same can absolutely not be said about Tatsuma, who is a convert to Judaism. Assuming that's even possible.

However, the same could absolutely be said about millions of Palestinians, who have kept identity, culture, links etc. in the face of over fifty years of ethnic cleansing.

So what do you mean, we?
 
2012-04-15 09:44:19 PM  

Eshkar: My point is that Canada as a nation didn't exist during the war of 1812.


First of all, that depends on how you see the idea of a "nation", which I think you are confusing with the concept of an "independent state". Canada as a part of British North America was an aspect of its identity that has evolved into what Canadian identity is today. (Our separation from Britain was only complete in 1982 with the repatriation of the Constitution, but Canadian identity existed long prior to that, just as our history existed prior to Confederation in 1867.) In the case of the War of 1812, the militias' defense of Canada from American attack became a source of Canadian national identity, and particularly in English Canada it is an important touchstone in our history, regardless of the fact that it happened prior to Confederation. (It's not as if the people who lived through both the War of 1812 and Confederation, which includes some of my ancestors, somehow had their memories blanked out as the page of Canadian history started afresh in 1867. The history of the people of Canada existed before the present political arrangement of Canada, and that history is and was remembered.) The War of 1812 and Canadians' participation in it and defense of their territory was a critical event in the development of Canada as a nation with a sense of itself even prior to Confederation, and it is a source of shared history and national mythology. In that sense, we did win the War of 1812, even if Confederation was 55 years later. Your comparison of the War of 1812 to experiences of Americans in founding their nation is not apt in the slightest - sources of identity and nationhood are completely different in the two cases.
 
2012-04-15 09:50:32 PM  
So much for RON PAUL's independent view of the ME. I guess he loves that lobby money.
 
2012-04-15 09:59:45 PM  

casual disregard: Alright, I'll concede the Cuban Missile Crisis if you can satisfy all of the following points:1) The entire national borders of the USA were surrounded by foreign armies.2) None of the foreign armies made any move to invade the USA.3) USA regular army invaded foreign territories and totally banged the shiat out of everyone.4) USA won the conflict handily and destroyed the credibility of most or all of the foreign armies involved therein.That's kind of the angle I was, like, angling toward...Let's not get all tangled up in facts, though. Recommend a solution befitting the existing problems. Now that would impress me.


I'm sorry, I'm a graduate of the LA Unified School District.

I'm lucky I was able to spell Cuban Missile Crisis.

/ashamed
 
2012-04-15 10:00:49 PM  

Tatsuma: Eshkar: Well lets try your retarded logic for a minute, so lets give Jerusalem back to the nation Israel recaptured it from... that would be Jordan. Lets put all of these poor 'Palestinians' in the hands of the Jordanians who put them in 'refugee' camps and treat them like shiat and refuse them citizenship... even though over 70% of their population is made up of peoples that identify as 'Palestinian". On the other hand Israel grants those in Jerusalem with full Israeli Citizenship (and voting rights) and allow them to live peaceful life's; and who a majority have already stated they wouldn't give up their Israeli citizenship for 'Palestinian' citizenship... hmmm

Oh and Jordan announced today they would revoke citizenship to 1.6 million Arabs who identify as 'palestinians'.

I am waiting for the outcry.


There will be no outcry, they're both bastard children abandoned by their neighbors around them... too damned much like eachother to get along with even eachother... so they'll wander alone through the desert some more... on the bright side, they're both abrahamic, so it's not like it's new to them.
 
2012-04-15 10:02:01 PM  

Liberal_With_a_Gun: Smackledorfer: glaurunge: RELIGION!

This is why we have so much trouble having and keeping nice things.

Tell that to Stalin and Lenin...


I'm sorry, did you think I said the world would be a peaceful utopia without religion? Because that is the only way your response makes sense.
 
2012-04-15 10:23:42 PM  

tyrellco: Tatsuma: Wolf_Blitzer: Exactly right. Now who's swapping reality for fantasies.

It's absolutely not comparable.

We are the literal descendent of the Israelis, we have kept our identity as such, we have kept our culture and all of our links to our forefathers.

The same can absolutely not be said about Italians versus Romans.

The same can absolutely not be said about Tatsuma, who is a convert to Judaism. Assuming that's even possible.


He might be a convert to the Jewish religion, but he's not an actual "Jew." He'll probably tell you otherwise, but it doesn't change the fact that merely adhering to said religion doesn't alter the composition of his extended family tree.
 
2012-04-15 10:34:18 PM  
I don't see anything "asinine" about what Ron Paul said there, subby; unless you were being facetious. Israel is not the 51st state of the Union, although it seems our Presidents often treat it that way. Time to let go of that Team America: World Police mentality and start using our foreign policy for what it should be for: defending our borders. It's pretty simple. I know our military-industrial complex think differently, but I care not for them as a voter.
 
2012-04-15 11:03:11 PM  

lh4.googleusercontent.com

 
2012-04-15 11:35:52 PM  
photos.imageevent.com
 
2012-04-15 11:35:55 PM  
Israel's capital has always been Jerusalem, it is Zion.

so why is there so much controversy around this, and why won't the world recognize it? It's kind of obvious. Seriously, how can you not see all of this so clearly predicted in Revelations and Daniel.

I challenge anyone to provide a simpler explanation about why the world doesn't recognize Jerusalem as the capital.
 
2012-04-15 11:36:46 PM  
I just wanted to say that, even as a fence-sitter on the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel had cassus belli to attack Egypt in 1967. I wrote a paper on it a few months ago. The Straits of Tiran was crucial to Israel's survival, and they had made several statements after the Suez Crisis and just prior to the 1967 closure that any attempt to close the Straits would be considered an act of war. Egypt had 11 years of headway on knowing exactly what Israel would do, and did it anyway. I'm definitely not saying Egypt deserved what it wrought during the Six-Day War (I abhor war), but they should have saw it coming. They had grossly false intelligence from the Soviet Union, though, that much of Israel's forces were massing on Syria, even though their own defense minister flew over the area and saw nothing. Nasser was kind of stupid at this time, in my opinion.

Also, Eshkar, Canada was not a "state", but it was a nation of people, during the War of 1812. Two, very different, kinds of people. It was mostly British that burned Washington down, though, after the Americans burned down York. But "Canadians" were there, too.

And nobody won the War of 1812. Not counting the extensive land gains the US gained in the Midwest, the official result is status quo ante bellum.
 
2012-04-15 11:40:49 PM  

Lunaville: non-interventionism is the only thing Ron Paul has going for him


You forgot the pot smokers and gold bugs.
 
2012-04-16 12:09:49 AM  
images2.fanpop.com

Confuse A Jew, Inc.
 
2012-04-16 12:33:35 AM  

Slesfo: Israel's capital has always been Jerusalem, it is Zion.

so why is there so much controversy around this, and why won't the world recognize it? It's kind of obvious. Seriously, how can you not see all of this so clearly predicted in Revelations and Daniel.

I challenge anyone to provide a simpler explanation about why the world doesn't recognize Jerusalem as the capital.


Not bad. The added s was a nice touch.
 
2012-04-16 12:34:46 AM  
Did somebody say incendiary?

static.guim.co.uk
 
2012-04-16 12:54:26 AM  

ha-ha-guy: The Free City of Danzig really didn't work all that well.


It was a real circle of snakes.
 
2012-04-16 02:16:27 AM  
My response to every Ron Paul thread until the end of time:

i53.tinypic.com
 
2012-04-16 02:43:07 AM  

YELLOL: i53.tinypic.com


shopped i can tell by the pizzels

and the sign on the wall

/voting for him in the PA primary next week but he'll never get the nom
//GARY JOHNSON 2012
 
2012-04-16 03:43:13 AM  

tyrellco: The same can absolutely not be said about Tatsuma, who is a convert to Judaism. Assuming that's even possible.


1) I am not a convert, I am what is called 'baal teshuva', a non-religious Jew who returned to Judaism
2) Yes, it is possible to convert to Judaism, though its not an easy undertaking

And yes the same can be said for me and every other Jew today. 2000 years of tradition and everything else just as alive today as it was then.

tyrellco: However, the same could absolutely be said about millions of Palestinians, who have kept identity, culture, links etc. in the face of over fifty years of ethnic cleansing.


yeah, the problem is that they created this 'identity and culture' in the last 50 years as well. There was not thing such as an arab 'palestinian people' a hundred years ago. The only people who were called 'palestinians' then were Jews. The Arabs who are now called palestinians were originally Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians who moved in the area in the last 150 years and did not have any sort of link whatsoever with this area, or a separate identity from the rest of the surrounding countries.

glaurunge: He might be a convert to the Jewish religion, but he's not an actual "Jew." He'll probably tell you otherwise, but it doesn't change the fact that merely adhering to said religion doesn't alter the composition of his extended family tree.


You people are really clueless, aren't you? Shameful.

Also, how about you let us decide who is Jewish and who is not, you arrogant little twerps?
 
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