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29188 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Apr 2012 at 1:19 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-13 04:52:22 PM

WorthNoting: But authority to detain comes in


Right where I stopped reading.
 
2012-04-13 04:54:10 PM
The whole burden of proof does not rely on what GZ thought, felt or did, but rather on what a reasonable person would think, feel or do.
 
2012-04-13 04:54:27 PM

s2s2s2: Swinging


I think it means to police monumentally farked up procedure in several ways on this night.

The police did a drug test and criminal back ground check on Trayvon but not Zimmerman that night. WTF?
 
2012-04-13 04:54:53 PM

9beers: tirob: We don't know the pace at which Zimmerman was going at any time during the 911 call, so we don't know if Zimmerman ever ran.

You're hopeless dude, we know that Zimmerman was running based on what we hear during his 911 call. The dispatcher recognized it, why can't you?


Citation please. The dispatcher only asked Zimmerman if he was "following" Martin.

9beers: tirob: We don't know where Zimmerman was when he was on the phone with the dispatcher

We do know where he was because not only does he describe his location, we have the location of where he leaves his vehicle and takes off running.


We know he started out where he parked his truck but not where he was when the call ended, nor where he was in the interim.
 
2012-04-13 04:55:11 PM
Impartial eyewitness - Not to be believed
Girlfriend of the victim - Totally credible

Is the mob even trying?
 
2012-04-13 04:57:35 PM

Meanniss: The whole burden of proof does not rely on what GZ thought, felt or did, but rather on what a reasonable person would think, feel or do.


I don't think a reasonable person would have got out of the car and followed a hooded stranger unless they were armed with a loaded gun.

We already know that Zimmerman perceived Trayvon as an someone on drugs or something, one of those assholes that always gets away and someone who was up to no good.

Yes, George really did not know "What his deal is".
 
2012-04-13 04:58:44 PM

Joshudan: but there is a 7-11 about 3 blocks away.


OMG! Joshudan is trying to get ALL OF US SHOT! (sounds of screaming)
 
2012-04-13 04:59:37 PM
Does anyone else see this????

www.nypost.com

images.sodahead.com
 
2012-04-13 05:00:21 PM
9beers, you couldn't be more perfect if Drew paid you.
 
2012-04-13 05:00:36 PM

tirob: PoochUMD: Why did he hang up? That was weird. Why hang up with 911 when you are following someone?

He hung up because he lost sight of the kid a full 2 minutes ago and had stopped actively following him when the dispatcher said they didn't need him to do that.

Just what in the evidence that has come to light so far gives you the idea that Zimmerman stopped pursuing Martin after the dispatcher told him not to?


Zimmerman gets out and pursues Trayvon about 2 minutes into his call to police. You can hear the door open and close, the wind and his voice changes.
The SUV is parked on the street in front of houses next to the cut through.
The dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following him, he says yes and you can tell that he is because of the wind and rustling of his jacket.
Approximately 25 seconds later, the wind and rustling stops and Zimmermans voice returns to normal.
That is approximately 2:45 seconds into the 911 call.
At that point Zimmerman stops and gives out his address and talks about meeting with the police officer, etc. That goes on for another minute and the call ends.

A minute later he is in a fight with Trayvon approx 20-30' from where he was standing at the cut through. All told he traveled ~100-150' in the 2+ minutes he was out of the car. So what is more likely? Did he actively follow someone for 20-30 seconds and go a reasonable distance from that starting point, or chase someone for a full 2 minutes (despite him sounding like someone walking for 25 seconds and standing for 2 minutes and admitting he didn't know where this person was) yet end up essentially right back where he started?

People want to believe that this neighborhood vigilante chased this poor kid through the neighbor with the dispatcher ordering him to stop, when in reality he followed the kid to the sidewalk behind the houses, lost him, the dispatcher tells him to stop and that's where his search ends.
 
2012-04-13 05:01:35 PM

SwingingJohnson: The police did a drug test and criminal back ground check on Trayvon but not Zimmerman that night. WTF?


SOP on bodies. Nothing new here.
 
2012-04-13 05:01:36 PM

9beers: Impartial eyewitness - Not to be believed
Girlfriend of the victim - Totally credible

Is the mob even trying?


Impartial witness who goes on TV with voice and face disguised and not the police on that night with police cars everywhere for hours.

VS.

Trayvon's GF who said who had a minimal account of what she heard that is substantiated with phone records.
 
2012-04-13 05:03:36 PM

tirob: Citation please. The dispatcher only asked Zimmerman if he was "following" Martin.


Why does the dispatcher wait until you can hear the obvious sounds of wind rushing past the speaker?
 
2012-04-13 05:04:53 PM

9beers: Impartial eyewitness - Not to be believed
Girlfriend of the victim - Totally credible

Is the mob even trying?


Astute observation from someone who has the same partial view of the evidence as the rest of us.

PS--I never wrote anything like that
PPS--if Martin is the victim, does that make Zimmerman the perpetrator?
 
2012-04-13 05:06:29 PM

tirob: We know he started out where he parked his truck but not where he was when the call ended, nor where he was in the interim.


The police have said that there's a minute that's unaccounted for. How far from the scene of the shooting could Zimmerman have been in that time?
 
2012-04-13 05:06:59 PM

SwingingJohnson: Impartial witness who goes on TV with voice and face disguised and not the police on that night with police cars everywhere for hours.


That part will be interesting when it plays out, you have this guy who very well maybe telling the truth and everything happened as he said saying that could really help the defenses case. But you also have this guy who said that when the zimmerman wasn't even under arrest so it is kinda easy to put yourself out there saying that to cover for your neighbor, I wonder if he will forget what happened...
 
2012-04-13 05:08:33 PM

SwingingJohnson: I don't think a reasonable person would have got out of the car and followed a hooded stranger unless they were armed with a loaded gun.


I live in a townhouse neighborhood that has a path running behind some of the rows of houses like the one in Zimmermans neighborhood. If I was out walking my dog and saw someone suspicious running behind a house and disappearing on the path, I'd walk the 50 or so feet to see which direction he went. There's no chance in hell I'd try to catch up with him/her, but I'd try to get an idea of where they were going. Which is very likely all Zimmerman intended to do.
 
2012-04-13 05:09:34 PM

SwingingJohnson: Meanniss: The whole burden of proof does not rely on what GZ thought, felt or did, but rather on what a reasonable person would think, feel or do.

I don't think a reasonable person would have got out of the car and followed a hooded stranger unless they were armed with a loaded gun.

We already know that Zimmerman perceived Trayvon as an someone on drugs or something, one of those assholes that always gets away and someone who was up to no good.

Yes, George really did not know "What his deal is".


My point exactly. I don't think a reasonable/responsible gun owner would inject themselves into a situation like this knowing that their actions could escalate what is a nonviolent situation into a violent situation. Even more so of that reasonable/responsible gun owner knew that the police were in route and at the time no one was in any physical danger.

/Gun Owner
 
2012-04-13 05:09:51 PM

PoochUMD: pursues


follows

/you're not helping
//jokeing of course, they do it plenty on their own.

Follow could be, but is not necessarily exclusive to: stalked, chased, pursued, AS WELL AS
trailed at a safe distance to keep sight(when sight was lost observer advanced)

Once a specific form of following is used in a post without variance(people only saying stalked and saying it a lot), it's forcing an implication that we have no evidence towards and show's bias.
 
2012-04-13 05:10:09 PM

s2s2s2: Let's make this easy:

Unless the prosecution can provide us with a link to video evidence of what Zimmerman did on the ground after he said, "OK." I was unaware that such evidence exists, or that if it did, it has been made public.

No evidence he chased > No evidence he did not



The "evidence he did NOT" would have been Trayvon's body lying next to George's SUV.

George didn't use teleportation to arrive at the kill spot - which was NOT next to George's SUV. .
 
2012-04-13 05:10:43 PM

SwingingJohnson:
BANG! your dead.


You're damn skippy it is my dead, because I am the Zombie king!

i34.photobucket.com
 
2012-04-13 05:12:45 PM

SwingingJohnson: Impartial witness who goes on TV with voice and face disguised and not the police on that night with police cars everywhere for hours.

VS.

Trayvon's GF who said who had a minimal account of what she heard that is substantiated with phone records.



John gave a statement to police the night of the shooting. It's a big part of the reason that Zimmerman wasn't arrested. If you can't figure out why he wouldn't show his face on TV, you're not even trying.

The only thing we can prove with Trayvon's girlfriend is that a phone call took place. Her statements can't be proven and as discussed earlier make no sense as they leave out important details that she must have known about if she was on the phone the entire time.
 
2012-04-13 05:13:03 PM

WorthNoting: The "evidence he did NOT" would have been Trayvon's body lying next to George's SUV


GTFO with that tired shiat.

Headed back to ≠ reached.

Trayvon ran and hid. AMBUSH. Every bit as reasonable.
 
2012-04-13 05:20:04 PM

9beers: tirob: Citation please. The dispatcher only asked Zimmerman if he was "following" Martin.

Why does the dispatcher wait until you can hear the obvious sounds of wind rushing past the speaker?


Assuming for the sake of argument that those sounds are wind, how do you know that what the recording picked up wasn't just ambient wind as opposed to the resistance of the ambient air to the moving cellphone? I'll concede that Zimmerman was probably going somewhere, but neither of us knows at what pace.

PoochUMD: tirob: PoochUMD:
Just what in the evidence that has come to light so far gives you the idea that Zimmerman stopped pursuing Martin after the dispatcher told him not to?

Zimmerman gets out and pursues Trayvon about 2 minutes into his call to police. You can hear the door open and close, the wind and his voice changes.
The SUV is parked on the street in front of houses next to the cut through.
The dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following him, he says yes and you can tell that he is because of the wind and rustling of his jacket.
Approximately 25 seconds later, the wind and rustling stops and Zimmermans voice returns to normal.
That is approximately 2:45 seconds into the 911 call.
At that point Zimmerman stops and gives out his address and talks about meeting with the police officer, etc. That goes on for another minute and the call ends.

A minute later he is in a fight with Trayvon approx 20-30' from where he was standing at the cut through. All told he traveled ~100-150' in the 2+ minutes he was out of the car. So what is more likely? Did he actively follow someone for 20-30 seconds and go a reasonable distance from that starting point, or chase someone for a full 2 minutes (despite him sounding like someone walking for 25 seconds and standing for 2 minutes and admitting he didn't know where this person was) yet end up essentially right back where he started?

People want to believe that this neighborhood vigilante chased this poor kid through the neighbor with the dispatcher ordering him to stop, when in reality he followed the kid to the sidewalk behind the houses, lost him, the dispatcher tells him to stop and that's where his search ends.


The wind and the rustling may have stopped but that in itself is no sign that Zimmerman cut off his pursuit. He could have been walking around looking for Martin at a slower pace during the last part of his conversation with the dispatcher, unless he had a Gerald Fordesque "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" disability.

I don't know what is "likely." Both of the scenarios you posit are conjecture.
 
2012-04-13 05:20:40 PM
I guess inquiring minds really do want to know.
 
2012-04-13 05:22:48 PM

9beers: tirob: We know he started out where he parked his truck but not where he was when the call ended, nor where he was in the interim.

The police have said that there's a minute that's unaccounted for. How far from the scene of the shooting could Zimmerman have been in that time?


I don't know.
 
2012-04-13 05:23:57 PM
Both sides agree that there are some very important unknowns in the timeline leading up to the shooting. What the mob still doesn't seem to grasp, even after all this time, is that Zimmerman doesn't have to prove his story is true, the prosecutor has to prove it isn't. Unless the prosecution presents a video tape showing Zimmerman chasing and tackling Martin, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a conviction given what we know now. Every goddamn legal expert weighing in on the case so far is saying the same thing.
 
2012-04-13 05:27:04 PM

tirob: The wind and the rustling may have stopped but that in itself is no sign that Zimmerman cut off his pursuit. He could have been walking around looking for Martin at a slower pace during the last part of his conversation with the dispatcher, unless he had a Gerald Fordesque "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" disability.

I don't know what is "likely." Both of the scenarios you posit are conjecture.


And Trayvon may have been waiting (since he hid, instead of went home, tho he was well ahead of Zim) for Zim to get off the phone so he could beat his punk ass.
 
2012-04-13 05:27:25 PM

WorthNoting: The "evidence he did NOT" would have been Trayvon's body lying next to George's SUV.

George didn't use teleportation to arrive at the kill spot - which was NOT next to George's SUV. .


Movement from point A to point B, barring teleportation of course, how realistic of you to have some limits to imagination....

Means only that one moved.

Not that one ran, chased, stalked, pursued, ninjad, waltzed, skipped, or hopped on one leg, only that there was motion in that direction.
No evidence points to any more specific than the generic term of "follow" as used by The dispatcher on the phone.
We have no real time frame for specific mode of movement other than walking.(when someone is running or chasing, you can usually tell over the phone when they're speaking, the impact with the ground if not the labored breath...non basement dwellers and non-fat people know this) the times of the calls and such are ample enough so that GZ need only have walked to get from A -B and even have time for a scuffle.

People trying to paint a scene with deliberate use of other words, as if GZ were sprinting to tackle TM and it's on video, are holding an obvious bias.
Others do it as if trying to make GZ sound like a ninja(stalking).

By the only evidence we have, the actual phone call, GZ was following to observe.
Anything else is pure speculation that goes against present evidence.

I'm not defending the overzealous douche nozzle. Calling you stupid is not indicative of my opinion of the case, which is a big fat "I don't have enough information". Oh, I could make a risky wager, but you all really seem to pretend to KNOW what happened, and that boggles the mind.
 
2012-04-13 05:28:44 PM

9beers: there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a conviction given what we know now. Every goddamn legal expert weighing in on the case so far is saying the same thing.


Plenty of people were also saying there was no way in hell he could be charged in this case.Who knows what you'll get with 12 angry Floridians.
 
2012-04-13 05:30:00 PM

Headso: advocate tough on crime and no tolerance for criminal behavior.
whine about prosecutor doing things you advocate for.
you can't explain that.


Tough on CRIME would be the key part of your post.

Who advocated for a prosecutor charging someone with a crime for which there is inadequate evidence? That's not the definition of tough on crime.
 
2012-04-13 05:30:41 PM

Headso: Plenty of people were also saying there was no way in hell he could be charged in this case, but who knows what you'll get with 120,000 angry Floridians.


A politically motivated prosecution?
 
2012-04-13 05:32:04 PM

9beers: SwingingJohnson: Impartial witness who goes on TV with voice and face disguised and not the police on that night with police cars everywhere for hours.

VS.

Trayvon's GF who said who had a minimal account of what she heard that is substantiated with phone records.


John gave a statement to police the night of the shooting. It's a big part of the reason that Zimmerman wasn't arrested. If you can't figure out why he wouldn't show his face on TV, you're not even trying.

The only thing we can prove with Trayvon's girlfriend is that a phone call took place.


You were doing all right up to this point.

9beers: SwingingJohnson:

Her statements can't be proven and as discussed earlier make no sense as they leave out important details that she must have known about if she was on the phone the entire time.


This remains to be seen.
 
2012-04-13 05:32:51 PM

s2s2s2: Headso: Plenty of people were also saying there was no way in hell he could be charged in this case, but who knows what you'll get with 120,000 angry Floridians.

A politically motivated prosecution?


vigilante justice, what comes around goes around?
 
2012-04-13 05:33:14 PM

Meanniss: SwingingJohnson: Meanniss: The whole burden of proof does not rely on what GZ thought, felt or did, but rather on what a reasonable person would think, feel or do.

I don't think a reasonable person would have got out of the car and followed a hooded stranger unless they were armed with a loaded gun.

We already know that Zimmerman perceived Trayvon as an someone on drugs or something, one of those assholes that always gets away and someone who was up to no good.

Yes, George really did not know "What his deal is".

My point exactly. I don't think a reasonable/responsible gun owner would inject themselves into a situation like this knowing that their actions could escalate what is a nonviolent situation into a violent situation. Even more so of that reasonable/responsible gun owner knew that the police were in route and at the time no one was in any physical danger.

/Gun Owner


Yep. That's the whole case here.

If everything that Zimmerman said happened was true and it happened next to his SUV people would have forgotten about this by now.

But it happened no where near his parked vehicle. This makes all the difference.

Zimmerman was in armed pursuit of a hooded stranger.
 
2012-04-13 05:33:42 PM

tirob: The wind and the rustling may have stopped but that in itself is no sign that Zimmerman cut off his pursuit. He could have been walking around looking for Martin at a slower pace during the last part of his conversation with the dispatcher, unless he had a Gerald Fordesque "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" disability.

I don't know what is "likely." Both of the scenarios you posit are conjecture.


Perhaps he slowly walked around the area while answering the questions. But is that what someone would do if they were actively chasing someone who they last saw running away? Can it even still be called pursing?
 
2012-04-13 05:34:24 PM

Silly Jesus: Headso: advocate tough on crime and no tolerance for criminal behavior.
whine about prosecutor doing things you advocate for.
you can't explain that.

Tough on CRIME would be the key part of your post.

Who advocated for a prosecutor charging someone with a crime for which there is inadequate evidence? That's not the definition of tough on crime.


Also:
Advocate for concealed carry and laws that allow for self defense including the use of deadly force.
Gets upset when people call that murder.
I don't need to explain that!
 
2012-04-13 05:35:13 PM

Headso: vigilante justice, what comes around goes around?


The operative word being justice, that would mean an acquittal.
 
2012-04-13 05:35:44 PM

SwingingJohnson: Silly Jesus: SwingingJohnson: Silly Jesus: SwingingJohnson: PoochUMD: SwingingJohnson: s2s2s2:

This point doesn't matter. He had the right to be where he was. Why do you keep bringing it up? It's the equivalent of arguing that Martin was responsible because he didn't immediately go home. Him going home would have prevented this whole thing as well.

That's debatable. He was armed and acting as a Neighborhood Watch Person following someone he perceived as "an asshole who always gets away and up to no good".

There is some credible evidence that Trayvon shouted, "WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME?!"

There is no evidence that Zimmerman identified himself. So far the evidence we have is he confronted Martin and a scuffle began.

Also, Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing (Tray's GF said)

But then look at the distance from SUV to shooting. Look at the photos of the apartment complex. There are no places for Trayvon to hide so he could sneak out and attack.

No sir, he was confronted. The exact thing the 911 told him not to do.

It's not debatable. Please cite what he did leading up to the scuffle that was illegal? Also, why do you feel that Zimmerman was obligated to identify himself?

Also, if there was no place to hide, please tell me what all of the white fences are in this picture.

[www.tampabay.com image 450x313]

911 never said "don't confront him", and even if they had that isn't a lawful order. On top of that they said more things to lead someone to believe that they wanted Zimmerman to continue following than they did leading you to believe that they wanted him to stop. Where is he going?, Where is he now? etc. VS. "We don't need you to do that."

With that same logic I can go to TACO BELL, eat 3 burritos and a Mexican Pizza... track you down on the street and fart directly in your face.

HEY! I'm just minding my own business. No law that says I can't fart here. ...


You are correct. I cannot bash your head into the cement sidewalk in retaliation for you farting in my face. If I did, you would be justified in shooting me.

What's your point?
 
2012-04-13 05:35:59 PM

Silly Jesus: charging someone with a crime for which there is inadequate evidence? That's not the definition of tough on crime.


ok that's the funniest post in the entire thread, have a great weekend everyone!
 
2012-04-13 05:36:18 PM

SwingingJohnson: Yep. That's the whole case here.


And why it will be a losing case for the prosecution.
 
2012-04-13 05:37:44 PM

Headso: Plenty of people were also saying there was no way in hell he could be charged in this case.Who knows what you'll get with 12 angry Floridians.


Given the lack of evidence, I'd go with a bench trial.
 
2012-04-13 05:37:46 PM

SwingingJohnson: If everything that Zimmerman said happened was true and it happened next to his SUV people would have forgotten about this by now.

But it happened no where near his parked vehicle. This makes all the difference.

Zimmerman was in armed pursuit of a hooded stranger.


Why should it matter if he was next to his SUV? You think he actively chased an unarmed kid for 2+ minutes. If that were true he'd be no where near his SUV. What difference does it make if he's 3' or 30' feet away?
 
2012-04-13 05:38:53 PM

9beers: Both sides agree that there are some very important unknowns in the timeline leading up to the shooting. What the mob still doesn't seem to grasp, even after all this time, is that Zimmerman doesn't have to prove his story is true, the prosecutor has to prove it isn't. Unless the prosecution presents a video tape showing Zimmerman chasing and tackling Martin, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a conviction given what we know now. Every goddamn legal expert weighing in on the case so far is saying the same thing.


Ideally, yes.

although, we don't live in that perfect world.

We all know if a jury hears the "help help" tape and are told it's martin(even without expert testimony), just once, with the right delivery, they could very well convict.

The law is clear, but it's not always carried out so well.

Jurors are inherently naive as to how to interpret evidence.

I don't want a jury of my peers, I want a jury of farking experts in forensics and such. Being that I'm an innocent person, and they know scientific logic, and to not listen to what the pretty lawyer says, as opposed to the mean looking one...I stand much better odds with science.

And of course...

What do you call 1,000 dead lawyers?
a good start.
 
2012-04-13 05:39:16 PM

9beers: Given the lack of evidence, I'd go with a bench trial.


Given the lack of evidence to prove against SYG, and the fact it is an election year for judges in FL, I'd go for dismissal.
 
2012-04-13 05:39:35 PM

Headso: ChuDogg: Advocate for criminal protections for the rights of the accused.
Whine when they protect somebody you don't like.
You can't explain that.

I think the same people that advocate no tolerance laws also advocate for protections for shooting suspicious people in their neighborhoods. shooting people that are bashing your head into the sidewalk. I could be wrong though but the whole it's in florida is the tipoff.


FTFY
 
2012-04-13 05:42:14 PM

tirob: You were doing all right up to this point.


Well lets hear it then. How can we confirm anything that Trayvon's girlfriend said?

It's also curious that she says that she didn't hear screams or a gunshot. Martin's phone magically hung up on it's own when it was supposedly knocked out of his hand?
 
2012-04-13 05:42:18 PM

SwingingJohnson: s2s2s2: Swinging

I think it means to police monumentally farked up procedure in several ways on this night.

The police did a drug test and criminal back ground check on Trayvon but not Zimmerman that night. WTF?


Haven't we already discussed this part? The whole needing to be arrested for the drug test on Zimmerman to be an option? WTF, indeed.
 
2012-04-13 05:42:53 PM
Damn auto correct. its
 
2012-04-13 05:43:06 PM

s2s2s2: tirob: The wind and the rustling may have stopped but that in itself is no sign that Zimmerman cut off his pursuit. He could have been walking around looking for Martin at a slower pace during the last part of his conversation with the dispatcher, unless he had a Gerald Fordesque "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" disability.

I don't know what is "likely." Both of the scenarios you posit are conjecture.

And Trayvon may have been waiting (since he hid, instead of went home, tho he was well ahead of Zim) for Zim to get off the phone so he could beat his punk ass.


I would guess that Martin had his back turned to Zimmerman when he initially started to run away from him. If that is the case, Martin would have lost sight of Zimmerman for at least part of the time that Zimmerman was on the phone. Martin had also observed Zimmerman driving his truck, and--as long as we're speculating here--might have thought that Zimmerman was going to drive down to the back entrance and try to head him off before he could reach his father's girlfriend's place, this in order to accomplish whatever mischief 17 year old black kids in Florida think that white adults may be capable of doing on the highway in the early evening. This might explain why Martin was hiding as opposed to running full speed towards "home." This scenario is conjecture, of course--as is yours.
 
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