If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Boing Boing)   Where the white Wood Elfs at?   (boingboing.net) divider line 197
    More: Silly  
•       •       •

9286 clicks; posted to Geek » on 12 Apr 2012 at 1:35 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



197 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-04-12 03:58:47 PM

Epicedion: I've wanted to check out WFRP for awhile.


It's a decent system mechanically. My only real issue is with GW in general. Their much lauded in universe fiction feels like adolescent power fantasy fulfillment to me because I avoided the wargame and don't have a stake or emotional investment in the universe.
 
2012-04-12 04:00:41 PM

likefunbutnot: Skyrmion: And yet, in it's own way, "Oriental Adventures" was even whiter than the rest of the manuals.

As I recall there were relatively few pictures of human beings in Oriental Adventures. Most of the illustrations were of objects, monsters or weapons. Certainly nothing like the 1st edition DMG or Deities and Demigods, with random bare-breasted white chicks presented with only the flimsiest of excuses.

Al Qadim also had a decent ratio of dark-skinned characters in its art and Dark Sun made a point of using non-European complexions in its art and descriptive text.


You could also have adventures in Chult.

Al Qadim and Dark Sun were great.
 
2012-04-12 04:00:57 PM
hoodedutilitarian.com
Leetah would make Hermie have Jungle Feevah!
 
2012-04-12 04:02:26 PM

Sybarite: Hey, at least the D&D cartoon had diversity.

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 640x496]

I'm sure if it gets remade at least one character will be Hispanic as well.


www.hecklerspray.com

Bobby: ORIGINAL BRONY!
 
2012-04-12 04:02:53 PM

Okie_Gunslinger: It's not just the HP's that are higher, ability modifiers are much higher and start being applied at lower ability scores.


Well, like I said, I don't actually play any of these games and I really haven't paid much attention at all to 4th edition.

I actually do follow along with the "D&D with Porn Stars" blog (new window, goes right to a NSFW content warning because he posts something with a nipple about once every couple months), written by the guy who ran the campaigns presented in "I Hit it with my Axe" on the Escapist. The guy who writes there actually has a lot of interesting things to say about game mechanics, utility and creativity. He plays a highly modified version of 1st edition, which is the version of the game I'm most familiar with.
 
2012-04-12 04:03:14 PM

Skyrmion: Are there major differences between Pathfinder and 3.5, other than the fact that it doesn't come with all the rules from non-core sourcebooks?


It's like 3.75. Biggest mechanical differences are a bump in starting HP, some tweaks and modifications to core classes that make them desirable to play from 1-20.

If you run purely from the CRB and Bestiary it's a solid game. Feature creep from splats is still a problem and Paizo publishes splats like they are going out of style.
 
2012-04-12 04:05:25 PM

TV's Vinnie: [hoodedutilitarian.com image 360x439]
Leetah would make Hermie have Jungle Feevah!


What I wouldn't give for an hour alone with the Pinis, a few cords of wood, and some gasoline.
 
2012-04-12 04:06:46 PM

Okie_Gunslinger: Didn't they release the novels as a form of introducing the campaign setting, kinda like they did with DragonLance?


As I recall there was quite a gap between the early novels and the boxed set. Everything back then was pre-internet so I have no idea whether it was a matter of fan demands for Greenwood's setting or just a long-term marketing plan. The first six Dragonlance modules were released at the same time as the first novel though, even though the hardcover campaign book wasn't released until the novels were long-completed.
 
2012-04-12 04:08:19 PM

knightofargh: Skyrmion: Are there major differences between Pathfinder and 3.5, other than the fact that it doesn't come with all the rules from non-core sourcebooks?

It's like 3.75. Biggest mechanical differences are a bump in starting HP, some tweaks and modifications to core classes that make them desirable to play from 1-20.

If you run purely from the CRB and Bestiary it's a solid game. Feature creep from splats is still a problem and Paizo publishes splats like they are going out of style.


I think in any system the DM/GM needs to tightly control what extra sources are used in the game and not just blanket-allow all official printed material. It's just a problem with the profit-model of RPG publishing in general that they have to put out tons of wacky expansions to keep money coming in. Trying to use them all breaks any game.
 
2012-04-12 04:21:46 PM
*Elminster casting protection spells on his moonmelon patch*
 
2012-04-12 04:24:23 PM

Skyrmion: I think in any system the DM/GM needs to tightly control what extra sources are used in the game and not just blanket-allow all official printed material. It's just a problem with the profit-model of RPG publishing in general that they have to put out tons of wacky expansions to keep money coming in. Trying to use them all breaks any game.


Honestly it's evolved into a player problem. If I cite rule zero (the GM is always right) I get called a bad GM, if I don't let them roll all over my encounters with munchy shiat I'm a bad GM, if I fail to challenge their munchy PCs I'm a bad GM, if I use anything from TVTropes (including the absence of tropes which is also a trope) I'm a bad GM, etc.

The for profit model and monthly publication schedule has damaged tabletop permanently. It's created a sense of entitlement among players and because publications are so frequent it's limited or removed playtesting of releases from the cycle.

Meanwhile, I have a table full of beardy grognards like me who are willing to put in the time to keep their party composition in check and tell a collaborative story.
 
2012-04-12 04:27:28 PM
FTFA:

"and what, do you think white players players of color are incapable of identifying with people of color white people?"

A really, really terrible argument because it so easily cuts both ways.

I'd also say (off the top of my head), that how somebody defines "race" in D&D is usually pretty different from how it works in real life. In D&D, different humanoid groups are LITERALLY different from each other, and some of them are, for example, INTRINSICALLY EVIL. Unlike in the real world, in D&D race determines your identity in an all-encompassing, inherent way.

But even take the example of Pathfinder's paladin (Seelah, right?) She's exactly the same as any other western-style knight - the only difference is that her skin is a different color. Merely swapping the color palette (as this author suggests) is not promoting "diversity" - introducing different cultures would be what's necessary.

The problem there, though, is that we all know exactly what kind of cultures people of color would get assigned to - primitive tribal peoples. That strikes me as being rather offensive, too.
 
2012-04-12 04:33:13 PM

knightofargh: Honestly it's evolved into a player problem. If I cite rule zero (the GM is always right) I get called a bad GM, if I don't let them roll all over my encounters with munchy shiat I'm a bad GM


Have you ever picked up a Knights of the Dinner Table collection?
 
2012-04-12 04:33:16 PM

knightofargh: Skyrmion: I think in any system the DM/GM needs to tightly control what extra sources are used in the game and not just blanket-allow all official printed material. It's just a problem with the profit-model of RPG publishing in general that they have to put out tons of wacky expansions to keep money coming in. Trying to use them all breaks any game.

Honestly it's evolved into a player problem. If I cite rule zero (the GM is always right) I get called a bad GM, if I don't let them roll all over my encounters with munchy shiat I'm a bad GM, if I fail to challenge their munchy PCs I'm a bad GM, if I use anything from TVTropes (including the absence of tropes which is also a trope) I'm a bad GM, etc.

The for profit model and monthly publication schedule has damaged tabletop permanently. It's created a sense of entitlement among players and because publications are so frequent it's limited or removed playtesting of releases from the cycle.

Meanwhile, I have a table full of beardy grognards like me who are willing to put in the time to keep their party composition in check and tell a collaborative story.


+1

The increasingly rules-dense focus of the game on tactical combat is a losing strategy, because given enough time, players are going to figure out how to beat the system. Once you've mastered the tactical elements (which have now become the centerpiece of the game), the game is no longer challenging, uncertain, or exciting.

Case in point: I was running a game where the PCs were out on the frontier, exploring/settling wild, unclaimed territory. We were having a real blast, and the players were deeply immersed in the setting. The Kingmaker rules come out, and we adopt them - within a few weeks my players had already figured out how turn their little piece of the frontier into an economic powerhouse that could not be challenged by another force on the frontier unless I created some kind of massive evil empire with nigh-inexhaustible resources.

Things got worse from there.
 
2012-04-12 04:33:33 PM
As someone who plays a giant cow woman in another game, I find all this quibbling about skin color amusing.

/Jerseys rule, Herefords drool.
 
2012-04-12 04:33:48 PM
dailygrindhouse.com

This elf looks hispanic.
 
2012-04-12 04:35:11 PM

likefunbutnot: Elves have always been around 5' tall in D&D, going back at least as far as the "purple box" basic set rules that were available in in the late 70s. This pre-dates Greyhawk as a published campaign setting. I don't recall seeing explicit mention of Greyhawk until its boxed set was released in probably, oh, 1982 or so? Well after the release of the full set of AD&D hardcovers, anyway. The early AD&D modules were retrofitted into the Greyhawk setting if they didn't explicitly mention it.

The Forgotten Realms always seemed to me to have a greater fan buy-in, mostly stemming from the fact that Dragon Magazine seemed to publish everything Ed Greenwood gave them, even before the first FR boxed set was released. I might be wrong but I believe novels set in FR also pre-dated an official TSR campaign setting as well.


The first published campaign setting for D&D was Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, back in the Chainmail days. So yes, that did predate Greyhawk. There were three 'worlds'
in the early days: Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and MAR Barker's Tekumel. TSR did orginially not have an 'official' world where everything in the game was set, but Greyhawk was the first campaign world that was recognized as Gygax started edging out Arneson and the other original group members in the early 80's, cementing Gygax in the public's mind as the sole creator of D&D. In 1st Edition AD&D, if a spell had a wizard's name in front of it, the wizard was from Greyhawk.

Ed Greenwood did write FR novels before the Greyhawk campaign setting was released, but I don't believe they were ever published. FR wasn't made an official campaign world until '86, I think? And Greyhawk came out in '80, IIRC. Ed Greenwood wasn't a part of the original Lake Geneva crowd and FR was only his house campaign until he joined the staff.
 
2012-04-12 04:36:59 PM

knightofargh: Honestly it's evolved into a player problem. If I cite rule zero (the GM is always right) I get called a bad GM, if I don't let them roll all over my encounters with munchy shiat I'm a bad GM, if I fail to challenge their munchy PCs I'm a bad GM,


I think that Rule 0 pretty much went out the window with D&D's 3rd Edition, when the attitude, even as written in the DMG, went from "The DM is always right" to "The DM needs to follow the rules, too". It's even more extreme in 4th, where the DM basically just seems to be there to set up the encounters and play the monsters in combat. Then again, I'm not even sure I would classify D&D4 as an RPG in the traditional sense. It seems to be splitting the difference between an RPG and a board game like Decent or Tomb.

lamecomedian: The problem there, though, is that we all know exactly what kind of cultures people of color would get assigned to - primitive tribal peoples. That strikes me as being rather offensive, too.


Drums on Fire Mountain, anyone?
 
2012-04-12 04:47:15 PM
We need to focus on the important things... Like the fact that it is a shiatty edition period amd boring to play. Pathfinder for life!
 
2012-04-12 04:51:40 PM
I believe that FATAL had a roll for race, but then again I've tried to forget ever reading those rules.
\d100 for everything
\\Everything
 
2012-04-12 04:51:44 PM
For the love of God, whatever you do don't tell the writer of TFA about how under represented disabled people are in RPG's!
 
2012-04-12 04:58:55 PM

Vrpljbrwock: I believe that FATAL had a roll for race, but then again I've tried to forget ever reading those rules.
\d100 for everything
\\Everything


Including the size of your anal opening and how big of a cawk you can take up the pooper.

Sadly, I'm not joking.

/never owned it, just read the pdf after hearing about it and wanted to see if it really was that batshiate insane.
//what has been seen cannot be unseen....
 
2012-04-12 05:01:38 PM

Old enough to know better: For the love of God, whatever you do don't tell the writer of TFA about how under represented disabled people are in RPG's!


Tenser's floating disc gives them a reason to live
 
2012-04-12 05:05:20 PM

RoyFokker'sGhost: The first published campaign setting for D&D was Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, back in the Chainmail days. So yes, that did predate Greyhawk. There were three 'worlds'


I was born in 1975 so Chainmail is a wee bit before my time, though I do remember published modules set in Blackmoor. I think the last one came out about the same time as Unearthed Arcana.
 
2012-04-12 05:09:01 PM

Fano: Old enough to know better: For the love of God, whatever you do don't tell the writer of TFA about how under represented disabled people are in RPG's!

Tenser's floating disc gives them a reason to live


In GURPS, taking a disadvantage like "no arms" can buy you enough character creation points to get some pretty biatchin' telekinesis.
 
2012-04-12 05:10:21 PM
So wait...you'll have elves, orcs, dragons, magic, and all various other bizarre fantastic elements, but including people of color is too "unrealistic"?
 
2012-04-12 05:11:57 PM

likefunbutnot: RoyFokker'sGhost: The first published campaign setting for D&D was Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, back in the Chainmail days. So yes, that did predate Greyhawk. There were three 'worlds'

I was born in 1975 so Chainmail is a wee bit before my time, though I do remember published modules set in Blackmoor. I think the last one came out about the same time as Unearthed Arcana.


Blackmoor modules were published for the 'Basic' D&D game setting (Red Box) back in the mid to late 80's. I don't think Blackmoor was ever published by TSR before then, outside of Chainmail.
 
2012-04-12 05:18:06 PM

RoyFokker'sGhost: likefunbutnot: RoyFokker'sGhost: The first published campaign setting for D&D was Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, back in the Chainmail days. So yes, that did predate Greyhawk. There were three 'worlds'

I was born in 1975 so Chainmail is a wee bit before my time, though I do remember published modules set in Blackmoor. I think the last one came out about the same time as Unearthed Arcana.

Blackmoor modules were published for the 'Basic' D&D game setting (Red Box) back in the mid to late 80's. I don't think Blackmoor was ever published by TSR before then, outside of Chainmail.


There were Greyhawk and Blackmoor supplements published for the original "white box" D&D in the 70's. IIRC, it was the Blackmoor supplement that first introduced the assassin and monk classes.
 
2012-04-12 05:19:10 PM
If the Dungeons and Dragons movie taught me anything, it is that Shawn Wayans' performance art was terrible.
 
2012-04-12 05:28:03 PM

Skyrmion: RoyFokker'sGhost: likefunbutnot: RoyFokker'sGhost: The first published campaign setting for D&D was Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, back in the Chainmail days. So yes, that did predate Greyhawk. There were three 'worlds'

I was born in 1975 so Chainmail is a wee bit before my time, though I do remember published modules set in Blackmoor. I think the last one came out about the same time as Unearthed Arcana.

Blackmoor modules were published for the 'Basic' D&D game setting (Red Box) back in the mid to late 80's. I don't think Blackmoor was ever published by TSR before then, outside of Chainmail.

There were Greyhawk and Blackmoor supplements published for the original "white box" D&D in the 70's. IIRC, it was the Blackmoor supplement that first introduced the assassin and monk classes.


Ah, yes, you are correct. That's the problem with having a 40 year old brain.

Still, I think my point stands: Gygax made sure that his world was the 'main' word for TSR and things like the Assassin and Monk were sublimated into Greyhawk and passed off as part of that world.
 
2012-04-12 05:34:58 PM

RoyFokker'sGhost: Blackmoor modules were published for the 'Basic' D&D game setting (Red Box) back in the mid to late 80's. I don't think Blackmoor was ever published by TSR before then, outside of Chainmail.


I might be thinking of a D&D branded module. Off the tip of my tongue I want to say Tomb of the Lizard King but that's not right. I'd probably have to dig through my collection to find the one I'm thinking of. Published modules after the very early Gygax ones were rarely all that interesting. It's a wonder I remember them at all.
 
2012-04-12 05:36:42 PM
I don't care what you Arduin in your RPGs, it's all good.
 
2012-04-12 05:42:42 PM

RoyFokker'sGhost: Still, I think my point stands: Gygax made sure that his world was the 'main' word for TSR


I think that at that point in time, it made a lot of sense for someone to do that. Published adventures were focused on minute details of an immediate setting with no connection to a wider world, and DMs were given very little help in breathing life into worlds of their own. Basic (purple box) D&D had a few paragraphs on the idea of actually role-playing or world building. The idea as I originally understood it (I started looking at and reading this stuff when I was about four so...) was something closer to a board game with a widely variable map and I suspect that many much more mature early players had similar experiences: "OK, you're at this keep. It's on the edge of civilization. You've heard about the nearby Caverns of Chaos and you and these other people who with you are going to go out and investigate... and you overhear someone say that Bree-Yark is the goblin word for surrender."
 
2012-04-12 06:14:29 PM

likefunbutnot: RoyFokker'sGhost: Still, I think my point stands: Gygax made sure that his world was the 'main' word for TSR

I think that at that point in time, it made a lot of sense for someone to do that. Published adventures were focused on minute details of an immediate setting with no connection to a wider world, and DMs were given very little help in breathing life into worlds of their own. Basic (purple box) D&D had a few paragraphs on the idea of actually role-playing or world building. The idea as I originally understood it (I started looking at and reading this stuff when I was about four so...) was something closer to a board game with a widely variable map and I suspect that many much more mature early players had similar experiences: "OK, you're at this keep. It's on the edge of civilization. You've heard about the nearby Caverns of Chaos and you and these other people who with you are going to go out and investigate... and you overhear someone say that Bree-Yark is the goblin word for surrender."


Yes, the 'Basic' D&D modules were designed to be dropped into any home-brewed world. But, once AD&D was published (which was the dominant form of the game until WoTC switched it all to 'D&D'), that's when Greyhawk became the integral setting. Every single 'named' spell (Tenser, Mordenkanin, Otiluk, Melf, Otto, Tasha, ect) was named from wizards in Gygax's Greyhawk. Mordenkanin himself was Gygax's character the same way Ed Greenwood is Elminster and Tracy Hickman is Fizban. Also, named magic items and artifacts in the core rule books were names from Greyhawk (Quiver of Ehlona, Hand of Vecna, Rod of Seven Parts) When 2e came out, Forgotten Relams was already the biggest selling and most popular campaign world, yet the description of the races was still based on Greyhawk standards and there's no spells named for Realms mages like Elminster, Khelben Blackstaff, Lhareal, The Symbul, Zsas Tam, ect. 3e came and still, Greyhawk was linked in with the core rulebooks through presentation of races, deities, spells, and magic items, but no mention of Forgotten Realms. And by 3e, WoTC had bought TSR and Gygax had long left the company.
 
2012-04-12 06:20:01 PM

likefunbutnot: RoyFokker'sGhost: Still, I think my point stands: Gygax made sure that his world was the 'main' word for TSR

I think that at that point in time, it made a lot of sense for someone to do that. Published adventures were focused on minute details of an immediate setting with no connection to a wider world, and DMs were given very little help in breathing life into worlds of their own. Basic (purple box) D&D had a few paragraphs on the idea of actually role-playing or world building. The idea as I originally understood it (I started looking at and reading this stuff when I was about four so...) was something closer to a board game with a widely variable map and I suspect that many much more mature early players had similar experiences: "OK, you're at this keep. It's on the edge of civilization. You've heard about the nearby Caverns of Chaos and you and these other people who with you are going to go out and investigate... and you overhear someone say that Bree-Yark is the goblin word for surrender."


Don't forget kicking Bargle the Infamous in the nuts.
 
2012-04-12 06:26:20 PM
He's blaming Wizards for the "whiteness" of the second edition Players manual? That was before WotC even existed - I was playing D&D with the founders of WotC in the 80s and we used that edition as a reference.

/csb?
 
2012-04-12 06:42:19 PM
I agree with everything that knightofargh has said.

So, with that out of the way...Here. Here's where a white wood elf at.

4.bp.blogspot.com


/hot as a Brassiere of Controlling Fire Elementals
//...wait....
 
2012-04-12 07:00:50 PM
Started out as an asshat race relations in an RPG thing...ends up nerds arguing about DnD AGAIN!!

Srsly....keep your race relations out of my RPG jackasses.
 
2012-04-12 07:19:51 PM
Really? Still?

If anyone is actually interested in well thought our role playing game rules, you don't have to invent them from scratch. In fact, one great system has been around since 1978.

Hit locations
Skill, not level based
Use the skill, get better at it, ignore it - you don't
Magic in one form or another available to all classes
"Realistic" treatment of religions, cults, etc.

Runequest/Basic Role Playing/Call of Cthulhu, etc
 
2012-04-12 07:20:41 PM
img12.imageshack.us



Likes big butts - cannot lie.
 
2012-04-12 07:36:44 PM
The only edition worth a damn is 2nd Edition. Anything else is blasphemy.

However, redoing the combat, skill, and magic systems based on Friday Night Firefight (cyberpunk) made it quite interesting (we were bored one night).
 
2012-04-12 07:38:31 PM

Cythraul:

But that's the nice thing about table-top RPGs. The storyteller / dungeon master can just insert diversity if he /she so wishes.


F T F Y(our non-diverse self)
 
2012-04-12 07:43:53 PM
What about Black Orcs in Warhammer?
 
2012-04-12 07:47:03 PM
Trayvon died to bring justice to fantasy game characters
 
2012-04-12 07:50:27 PM
Nerd world problems.
 
2012-04-12 08:05:29 PM

LincolnLogolas: The only edition worth a damn is 2nd Edition. Anything else is blasphemy.

However, redoing the combat, skill, and magic systems based on Friday Night Firefight (cyberpunk) made it quite interesting (we were bored one night).


2nd edition is truly the only one salvageable after all these years. First edition is a close second, but it had the craziest damn rules for becoming a character that I've ever seen (bard), and thief characters couldn't even choose what thiefly skills to be good at.
 
2012-04-12 08:09:07 PM
This does seem a bit overblown to me. There are more red skinned tieflings in the book not because they're more important than "blacks" or "asians" but because most people can imagine what different types of humans look like but having more visual examples of races that don't actually exist on Earth is more helpful.

I've actually always found it sort of strange when fantasy setting try to shoehorn in equivalents to China or Japan, because unless the ancient peoples of that world spread out and were then separated for tens of thousands of years in order to cause the geographical changes in appearance, they wouldn't have those equivalents, and even if they did, they could probably look and act differently from any culture we have here on Earth

//Just wondering, if WOTC happens to use a black human character for the sample Rogue in the next version, will they then be accused of racism for making the black guy the "criminal"?
 
2012-04-12 08:33:10 PM

Faddy: Elfs? Really subby. Elves

/lern 2 spel


This. You have been warned once smitty. Do it again and you'll be forced to read the Silmarillion.
 
2012-04-12 08:36:41 PM

smooshie: "My D&D game manual doesn't have enough minorities in it" has got to be one of the most first world problems I've ever heard of.


Reminds me of a moment at Burning Man about 10 years ago. One of the biggest, blackest man I'd ever seen climbs up on a parked car and in a booming voice says "You people, where da fark are all da white people drugs at?" and someone instantly offered him a joint and just looks at it and says "motherfarker, I GOT weed, I got weed that will blow your hippie MIND, what I wants is some of them weird-ass white people drugs"



First time it occurred to me that there even was such a thing as "White people drugs" (and the story had a happy ending as two cute girls dressed as fairies gave him a "candy flip" and they all proceeded by all accounts to have a VERY good evening of intense "cultural exchange"
 
2012-04-12 08:56:16 PM

emocomputerjock: 2nd edition is truly the only one salvageable after all these years. First edition is a close second, but it had the craziest damn rules for becoming a character that I've ever seen (bard), and thief characters couldn't even choose what thiefly skills to be good at.


1st edition Bard rules were presented as completely optional, as were Psionics. As a matter of priority, the Bard rules are basically the last thing in the first edition Players Handbook, 150 pages away from all the other class descriptions. Like, "Oh yeah and there's this other class you can be but you have to be a fighter and then a thief and then a druid before you get to be one." Bard rules are even after Monk rules.

I don't recall any published first edition materials that made use of either Bards or Psionics.
One single episode of the old D&D cartoon used a Psionic character and I think Dark Sun is the only setting that officially requires those rules.
 
Displayed 50 of 197 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report