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(Pravda)   Russian protesters are admonished that they really shouldn't want freedom, American-style   (english.pravda.ru) divider line 45
    More: Ironic, Americans, hidden taxes, write-ins, military justice, electoral college, United Russia, Russians, Kalashnikov assault rifles  
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1339 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Apr 2012 at 8:32 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-11 03:12:19 AM
Malware Bytes didn't like that link.
 
2012-04-11 03:37:50 AM
A well balanced approach showing the ills of the American way of life? No way this will get greenlit.

Sorry subs, but Fark is a major Democratic support site, so there aint no way in hell this will show up on the main page.
 
2012-04-11 08:35:19 AM

cman: Sorry subs, but Fark is a major Democratic support site


DERP
 
2012-04-11 08:38:55 AM

cman: A well balanced approach showing the ills of the American way of life? No way this will get greenlit.

Sorry subs, but Fark is a major Democratic support site, so there aint no way in hell this will show up on the main page.


DERRRRRRRRRPPPPPPPPPP
 
2012-04-11 08:39:22 AM
Excellent article comrades.


i.imgur.com
 
2012-04-11 08:44:27 AM
fta: ...using falls footage...

What's wrong with using Fall's footage, might I ask?

It's beautiful in the Fall, the leafs are turning spectacular colors and dropping off the trees.

You can go for long walks and crunch them underfoot as you enjoy the epic looking vista.

/Trolling for Rooshians, Canadian style.
 
2012-04-11 08:45:22 AM

eeeleeet: Malware Bytes didn't like that link.


Are the Russians making your computer scared. It is Pravda, the Russian version of the BBC, only not as hampered by the state to do free reporting.
 
2012-04-11 08:47:12 AM
"American's Pay Almost 50% of their income in Taxes"

WAT
 
2012-04-11 08:47:29 AM
Do you mean they want American-style freedom, or that the admonishment was American-style?

/DRTFA
 
2012-04-11 08:48:02 AM
While these points are well-taken, it's always a poor argument to justify your own faults by pointing out those of another. But, yes: Our political system is rigged, the government is corrupt, and the Constitution is only adhered to when it is expedient. That much is obvious. And the weather sucks in Russia, so there's that.
 
2012-04-11 08:48:22 AM
But I bet they want this:
www.sitcomsonline.com
 
2012-04-11 08:48:30 AM
If you think you can say anything you want if you're an American consider the American president recently authorized the assassination of an American citizen who was known for recording tapes and CDs denouncing America's policies as immoral, and oppressive.

Are we talking about al-Awlaki? The guy who helped people plan violent attacks on Americans? Saying that he was assassinated for "free speech" is like saying that John Hinckley was arrested for having a crush on Jodie Foster.
 
2012-04-11 08:51:04 AM

Faddy: eeeleeet: Malware Bytes didn't like that link.

Are the Russians making your computer scared. It is Pravda, the Russian version of the BBC, only not as hampered by the state to do free reporting.


Not sure if serious? Nowadays Pravda is more like Russia's version of Fox News The New York Post.
 
2012-04-11 08:53:04 AM
8. Freedom to Keep and Bare Arms

Oh this is just precious.
 
2012-04-11 08:56:50 AM
FTA: They even used the frequently derogatory term bloggers to refer to free publications that do not follow their talking points.

We cannot allow a 'your blog sucks' gap!
 
2012-04-11 08:57:43 AM

LasersHurt: "American's Pay Almost 50% of their income in Taxes" WAT


54.4%

A partial list of the various ways in which citizens of the US are taxed:

•Accounts Receivable Tax
•Building Permit Tax
•Capital Gains Tax
•CDL license Tax
•Cigarette Tax
•Corporate Income Tax
•Court Fines (indirect taxes)
•Deficit spending
•Dog License Tax
•Federal Income Tax
•Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
•Fishing License Tax
•Food License Tax
•Fuel permit tax
•Gasoline Tax
•Hunting License Tax
•Inflation
•Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
•Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
•IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
•Liquor Tax
•Local Income Tax
•Luxury Taxes
•Marriage License Tax
•Medicare Tax
•Property Tax
•Real Estate Tax
•Septic Permit Tax
•Service Charge Taxes
•Social Security Tax
•Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
•Sales Taxes
•Recreational Vehicle Tax
•Road Toll Booth Taxes
•School Tax
•State Income Tax
•State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
•Telephone federal excise tax
•Telephone federal universal service fee tax
•Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
•Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
•Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
•Telephone state and local tax
•Telephone usage charge tax
•Toll Bridge Taxes
•Toll Tunnel Taxes
•Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
•Trailer Registration Tax
•Utility Taxes
•Vehicle License Registration Tax
•Vehicle Sales Tax
•Watercraft Registration Tax
•Well Permit Tax
•Workers Compensation Tax
(new window)
 
2012-04-11 09:04:52 AM

canyoneer: LasersHurt: "American's Pay Almost 50% of their income in Taxes" WAT

54.4%



Note 1: the total tax paid is closer to 46-48% (2009, 47-50%), since the figures above do not distinguish between taxes on gross and net income, nor do they adjust for tax planning. Note also that the Tax Foundation's numbers are closer to 34% for the actual "average" US citizen.
 
2012-04-11 09:04:54 AM

canyoneer: LasersHurt: "American's Pay Almost 50% of their income in Taxes" WAT

54.4%

A partial list of the various ways in which citizens of the US are taxed:


I don't even own a watercraft.
 
2012-04-11 09:13:38 AM

Counter_Intelligent: Note 1: the total tax paid is closer to 46-48% (2009, 47-50%), since the figures above do not distinguish between taxes on gross and net income, nor do they adjust for tax planning. Note also that the Tax Foundation's numbers are closer to 34% for the actual "average" US citizen.


Yes, it depends on where you live, how you live, how you make your money, what hobbies or entertainments or activities you engage in, and so on. But for most people in the top 50% of income, the effective overall tax rate (with all the nickel-and-dime chickensh*t little taxes and fees and imposed expenses added up) is anywhere from about 40% to well over 50%. Not saying I'd rather live in Russia, all things considered, but this fellow makes some good points about how chickensh*t this country really is. Seriously: Two weeks of vacation? That alone is enough to tell you you're being chiseled, bilked, and rooked at every turn.
 
2012-04-11 09:20:06 AM
sprawl15


canyoneer: LasersHurt: "American's Pay Almost 50% of their income in Taxes" WAT

54.4%

A partial list of the various ways in which citizens of the US are taxed:

I don't even own a watercraft.



Dissident!
 
2012-04-11 09:25:07 AM

sprawl15: I don't even own a watercraft.


Clearly there is only one way to fix this. You need to buy a watercraft. Right now.

FOR FREEDOM!
 
2012-04-11 09:29:54 AM
What can be more oppressed than a people lied to by their press, over worked, and over taxed, unable to elect representation outside the established two parties, which are of course only one party better than a dictatorship, all the while being told they are the freest nation on Earth?

Right on all points.

The US criticizing Russia for being undemocratic and oppressive reeks of the same hypocrisy as deriding China for human rights abuses, while American prisoners are tortured and held without trial. America squandered all its moral authority long ago.
 
2012-04-11 09:32:07 AM

canyoneer: Counter_Intelligent: Note 1: the total tax paid is closer to 46-48% (2009, 47-50%), since the figures above do not distinguish between taxes on gross and net income, nor do they adjust for tax planning. Note also that the Tax Foundation's numbers are closer to 34% for the actual "average" US citizen.

Yes, it depends on where you live, how you live, how you make your money, what hobbies or entertainments or activities you engage in, and so on. But for most people in the top 50% of income, the effective overall tax rate (with all the nickel-and-dime chickensh*t little taxes and fees and imposed expenses added up) is anywhere from about 40% to well over 50%. Not saying I'd rather live in Russia, all things considered, but this fellow makes some good points about how chickensh*t this country really is. Seriously: Two weeks of vacation? That alone is enough to tell you you're being chiseled, bilked, and rooked at every turn.


Or the fact that the US doesn't have paid maternity leave and like every other country does.

Only four countries have no national law mandating paid time off for new parents: Liberia, Papua New Guinea, Swaziland, and the United States. (new window)

And actually the US doesn't even mandate vacation time. Employers grant it out of the goodness of their heart, too bad for most people if you actually want to use it you are essentially going to be shiat canned or cannot use it when you want to.
Link (new window)
 
2012-04-11 09:33:32 AM

there their theyre: And actually the US doesn't even mandate vacation time. Employers grant it out of the goodness of their heart, too bad for most people if you actually want to use it you are essentially going to be shiat canned or cannot use it when you want to.


The US also doesn't demand breaks, including lunch breaks, regardless of length of your working day.
 
2012-04-11 09:54:30 AM
In covering the protest in Russia the supposedly freest press in the world even saw many programs using falls footage

Well at least our press can spell, commie!

/usually
 
2012-04-11 09:55:31 AM

karnal: But I bet they want this:
[www.sitcomsonline.com image 320x240]


Came for this, leaving a little disappointed it wasn't in the boobies.
 
2012-04-11 09:59:49 AM
I know English probably isn't that writers strong suit but Jesus, that was painful.
 
2012-04-11 10:38:05 AM

cman: A well balanced approach showing the ills of the American way of life? No way this will get greenlit.

Sorry subs, but Fark is a major Democratic support site, so there aint no way in hell this will show up on the main page.


Um, well-balanced?

Free Press: There is no comparison between the US and other countries. The fact that the US press is owned by six corporations (I haven't checked - is this true?) may or may not be bad in comparison to other countries. In order to be balanced, you would need to make the comparison.

How does Russia's free press situation compare?
According to International Press Institute, Russia is the most dangerous European country for journalists.. . . The BBC has stated in recent years, that companies with close links to the Government, state-owned Gazprom among them, have bought several of the most influential papers.[23] According to Freedom House, the Russian government owns 60 percent of newspapers, and in whole or in part, all national television stations.[24] A news report in Kommersant suggested that the last two remaining semi-independent television channels REN TV and Channel 5 may become under state control in 2010.[25]

I can see "free speech" has already been covered in this thread.

Freedom of religion - same criticism as with freedom of the press - you need a comparison to make it balanced. Also, citations needed on their claims that Churches need to go to court to protect their right to display a cross. I've seen plenty of crosses displayed on church property while driving around - it just doesn't seem to be an issue.

Freedom from taxation without representation: You do know that having a high tax rate =/= taxation without representation, right? Even if their numbers are correct (doubtful, given the level of fact-checking elsewhere in the article)?

Right to bare {wince} arms: The fact is most countries, with the notable exception of the United Kingdom, allow a person to keep weapons for self defense and hunting, the Russian Federation included.
With the exception of "most countries", and "allow", this is pretty accurate.

Japan prohibits gun possession by citizens except for shotguns and single-shot rifles for hunting or sports. . . . Police check on the owner once every three months on an unannounced visit.

Even though Article 10 of the Mexican Constitution declares the right to bear arms, it is currently illegal in Mexico for any civilian to own a firearm of any caliber used, tested, or currently in use by the Mexican Government or Military.

Only citizens who are hunters, members of shooting sports clubs or legitimate collectors may obtain licenses for firearms [in the Netherlands].

The Firearms Act of 1995 does not recognise self-defense as a valid reason to acquire a firearm in Canada.


In fact, most countries with gun laws listed on the above page are more restrictive than the US is.


Their section on police violence translates to "It's nowhere near as bad as it is in Russia . . . but it could be, and that's bad, so they're worse than Russia."


I've got to wonder - by what criteria exactly do you consider this to be well-balanced? Maybe it's more balanced than other articles in Pravda's history, but that's not exactly a high bar to clear, is it?
 
2012-04-11 10:55:58 AM
Freedom to keep and bare arms

I thought it was the freedom to bear arms:

picrocker.com
 
2012-04-11 10:56:38 AM

Arkanaut: If you think you can say anything you want if you're an American consider the American president recently authorized the assassination of an American citizen who was known for recording tapes and CDs denouncing America's policies as immoral, and oppressive.

Are we talking about al-Awlaki? The guy who helped people plan violent attacks on Americans? Saying that he was assassinated for "free speech" is like saying that John Hinckley was arrested for having a crush on Jodie Foster.


That's true, assuming you're comfortable with the fact that every bit of information released to make you think the assassination was justified came from the people who want you to think the assassination was justified. Internal debate within the executive branch is nothing but a support system to help the president mull something over that does no check his power in any way.
 
2012-04-11 10:59:25 AM

Nem Wan: That's true, assuming you're comfortable with the fact that every bit of information released to make you think the assassination was justified came from the people who want you to think the assassination was justified. Internal debate within the executive branch is nothing but a support system to help the president mull something over that does no check his power in any way.


The only justification required, per Congress, is that the President make a determination. Congress is free to, at any time, adjust the limitations on the 9/11 AUMF (or repeal it) to ensure a more thorough process or a more limited scope.
 
2012-04-11 10:59:49 AM

sprawl15: canyoneer: LasersHurt: "American's Pay Almost 50% of their income in Taxes" WAT

54.4%

A partial list of the various ways in which citizens of the US are taxed:

I don't even own a watercraft.


and i don't even own an inflation.

/seriously, i was chuckling at a couple of the examples but i just stopped at inflation.
 
2012-04-11 11:08:10 AM

burndtdan: and i don't even own an inflation.

/seriously, i was chuckling at a couple of the examples but i just stopped at inflation.


Inflation IS a tax. It's a tax on everyone who holds dollars - it's just not easily visible because you don't notice it until money is printed (thus devaluing every other dollar in circulation) and prices adjust.
 
2012-04-11 11:09:41 AM

burndtdan: sprawl15: canyoneer: LasersHurt: "American's Pay Almost 50% of their income in Taxes" WAT

54.4%

A partial list of the various ways in which citizens of the US are taxed:

I don't even own a watercraft.

and i don't even own an inflation.

/seriously, i was chuckling at a couple of the examples but i just stopped at inflation.


I clicked on the link. Right below the tax stuff, there's a claim that "Oil companies profits are less than the taxes they pay". Clicking on _that_ link gets you to a Tax Foundation website that shows that Oil company profits in 2006 (the latest year they have data) were $131,480 million, while their total tax burden was 34947+48113+10958 = 94,018 million (i.e. less than 131,480 million).

To sum up: canyoneer linked to a site that can't read or add.
 
2012-04-11 11:22:30 AM
Article was written by a guy who wouldn't know America if it shoved polonium-210 down his throat.
 
2012-04-11 12:14:20 PM

draypresct: To sum up: canyoneer linked to a site that can't read or add.


All right, Professor Egghead, how much does the average American pay in taxes every year? Don't forget to add up all the little local chickensh*t fees and taxes and add-ons and penalties and costs for parking on public roadsides and local surcharges to raise money for the dog park and property taxes and sales taxes and liquor taxes and car registration and witholding and income tax and whatnot and what-have-you and all the rest, all in defense of the wonderful land of opportunity and rugged individualism in which we are blessed to live. But don't do it on your three days of vacation you get this year, because you might miss out on the chance to pay at the toll booths on the public highway on your way to the state park you have to pay to get into.
 
2012-04-11 12:27:01 PM

canyoneer: All right, Professor Egghead, how much does the average American pay in taxes every year?


According to nowandfutures.com, they pay $Texas.
 
2012-04-11 12:45:50 PM

sprawl15: Nem Wan: That's true, assuming you're comfortable with the fact that every bit of information released to make you think the assassination was justified came from the people who want you to think the assassination was justified. Internal debate within the executive branch is nothing but a support system to help the president mull something over that does no check his power in any way.

The only justification required, per Congress, is that the President make a determination. Congress is free to, at any time, adjust the limitations on the 9/11 AUMF (or repeal it) to ensure a more thorough process or a more limited scope.


The 9/11 AUMF requires the target to be connected to the commission of 9/11 or harboring those who committed it. If anything, Congress seems inclined to remove that limitation because we're running out of bad guys connected to 9/11.
 
2012-04-11 12:52:49 PM
There are a few shameful things that article didn't even mention, like the massive KGB NSA surveillance complex being built in Utah for mining domestic and international communication and financial information. Or the FBI opening domestic terrorism investigations on anti-war protesters. And how 'bout the international torture hostels the CIA uses to temporarily store people destined for our Guantanamo gulag?
 
2012-04-11 01:55:26 PM

canyoneer: draypresct: To sum up: canyoneer linked to a site that can't read or add.

All right, Professor Egghead, how much does the average American pay in taxes every year? Don't forget to add up all the little local chickensh*t fees and taxes and add-ons and penalties and costs for parking on public roadsides and local surcharges to raise money for the dog park and property taxes and sales taxes and liquor taxes and car registration and witholding and income tax and whatnot and what-have-you and all the rest, all in defense of the wonderful land of opportunity and rugged individualism in which we are blessed to live. But don't do it on your three days of vacation you get this year, because you might miss out on the chance to pay at the toll booths on the public highway on your way to the state park you have to pay to get into.


The ability to add 34947+48113+10958 and get a number less than 131,480 million makes me professor egghead? Um . . . okay.

The average amount of taxes people pay isn't an easy problem, agreed. Do you want to get your answers from a website written by people who flunked 1st-grade math?

All those little fees you listed to feel more like a martyr aren't paid by everyone (see earlier posts re: people who don't own a boat). If you went about it that way, you'd need to multiply those fees by the percentage of people who actually pay them, which would be pretty difficult.

Let's try a simplifying assumption, and see if we get something pretty close, okay? We're not trying to sum up what Joe the Plumber pays, we're getting an estimate for the overall average. One way to get that is to use the total tax revenue, divided by the total individual earnings. Let's see how well that agrees with estimates from people who can add:

Federal govt total tax revenue in 2006: $2,406.9 B
Total individual earnings in 2006: $11,256.5
Percentage: 21.4%
Note how this matches reasonably closely with the CBO estimate of 20.7%

Before anyone objects that the total tax earnings include corporate taxes, lets assume that you and I pay corporate taxes through higher prices.

Using a similar method for state + local taxes: $1,257.2 B
(Note: state taxes by themselves totalled $702.2 B. Some egghead professor type could probably figure out how much local tax revenue there was using subtraction.)

So the total amount of tax revenue is $2,406.9 B + $1,257.2 B = $3,664.1B.

So the % of total earnings that go to taxes is 32.6%.

Which is pretty close to what the site authors got: "Note also that the Tax Foundation's numbers are closer to 34% for the actual "average" US citizen." And nowhere near the "over half" you were trying to claim.

/Arithmetic is hard.
 
2012-04-11 03:09:33 PM

draypresct: Arithmetic is hard.


It's not the arithmetic, it's the methodology. How can you include the earnings of all Americans in your calculation when half don't pay any income taxes at all? Similarly, how do you break out the sources of local tax revenue when it is almost certain that half the people are paying far less than half the local taxes of various kinds? You can't. Your simple arithmetic is too simple.
 
2012-04-11 03:20:12 PM

andrewagill: karnal: But I bet they want this:
[www.sitcomsonline.com image 320x240]

Came for this, leaving a little disappointed it wasn't in the boobies.



That's because you have to be old as dirt to think of that reference, like us.

/ps the Love American style theme song is now in your head.
 
2012-04-11 03:57:09 PM

canyoneer: draypresct: Arithmetic is hard.

It's not the arithmetic, it's the methodology. How can you include the earnings of all Americans in your calculation when half don't pay any income taxes at all?


You started this by listing all the possible taxes/sales-taxesfees/tolls/etc. Now you say that half the sample should be excluded because they don't pay income tax, completely ignoring the fact that they all do pay all these other taxes. It really isn't that hard to do the arithmetic if you can maintain a coherent and consistent grasp of the problem for three posts in a row.

Similarly, how do you break out the sources of local tax revenue when it is almost certain that half the people are paying far less than half the local taxes of various kinds? You can't. Your simple arithmetic is too simple.

I . . . think I know what you're trying to say here, but there are so many interpretations I can't be sure. My best guess is first below:

A) Best guess: The mean is not fully descriptive, since some people pay more and some people pay less.
My response would be that I agree it's not fully descriptive, but I was addressing your initial claim that was based on (an incorrect estimate of) the mean. If you feel this is flawed, then why did you rely upon it yourself? Feel free to report appropriate distribution information that in any way supports your original assertion that Americans pay more than half their paycheck in taxes. Warning: some egghead professor-type arithmetic may be required.

B) As written: You can't report total local tax revenues when some people pay more than others.
My response: Sure I can. It's called arithmetic. I can add the following numbers: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 and get 10 even though some are higher and some are lower.

C) Politically: The amount of taxes some people pay is irrelevant and shouldn't be considered in the overall rate.
My response: Can you point to which people these are exactly and why their tax burden shouldn't be included? Should retirees be included? My answer provided the overall tax burden, which was much less than what you claimed.

D) Fark: You're making random noise to try to cover for the fact that you tried to support your political position using bad data.
My response: Welcome to Fark. There are people here who can do arithmetic and know how to use Google. Sometimes, when you post something exceptionally ignorant, you'll be called on it.
 
2012-04-12 03:49:50 AM
That's it, I'm moving to US only to move to Russia the very next day. Freedom, here I come
 
2012-04-12 07:43:51 AM
"A u vas negrov bjut"
 
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