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(Science Daily)   North American predator loss affects ecosystems, leaves Aliens totally unchecked   (sciencedaily.com) divider line 118
    More: Obvious, North American, aliens, carbon sequestration, herbivores, northern hemisphere, woolly mammoths, apex predator, lynx  
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3189 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Apr 2012 at 10:46 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-10 09:13:40 AM
FTFA:
It also concludes that human hunting, due to its limited duration and impact, is not effective in preventing hyper-abundant densities of large herbivores. This is partly "because hunting by humans is often not functionally equivalent to predation by large, wide-ranging carnivores such as wolves," the researchers wrote in their report.

That's because it's that way BY DESIGN. Sport hunting regulations are designed to increase the availability of game species, and they serve very well for that purpose.

Of the three main types of hunting, sport, subsistence, and market hunting, only sport hunting generally results in an increase in population of the animals targeted. Subsistence hunting (hunting for food, or to protect food crops/livestock), and market hunting (hunting to sell the animal parts for a profit) both have resulted in significant reductions in animals targeted, and in some cases outright extinction, but sport hunting, especially regulated sport hunting, has to the best of my knowledge never resulted in an outcome like that, generally it's the oppposite.

The other thing to consider is that people don't like the idea of large predators skulking around where their kids and pets might play. Example: A few years ago we had a coyote problem in my area. They were entirely too comfortable with human presence, and getting too close for comfort. Especially considering that the distaffbopper and I, and most of our neighbors, had young children (littlebopper was 5 or 6 at the time, small enough for a desperate coyote to try attacking). I shot one of them, and another one of the coyotes died presumably from natural causes (that one had a lame front paw), and I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig. Since then I can hear them calling occasionally in the woods behind the house, but they stay away from the houses, which is as it should be.
 
2012-04-10 09:15:37 AM
Another reason why sport hunting can't be effective is because a lot of landowners, both public and private, won't allow it on their property. That allows large concentrations of animals to grow, outstripping the ability of the land to provide food.
 
2012-04-10 09:31:50 AM

dittybopper: FTFA:
It also concludes that human hunting, due to its limited duration and impact, is not effective in preventing hyper-abundant densities of large herbivores. This is partly "because hunting by humans is often not functionally equivalent to predation by large, wide-ranging carnivores such as wolves," the researchers wrote in their report.

That's because it's that way BY DESIGN. Sport hunting regulations are designed to increase the availability of game species, and they serve very well for that purpose.

Of the three main types of hunting, sport, subsistence, and market hunting, only sport hunting generally results in an increase in population of the animals targeted. Subsistence hunting (hunting for food, or to protect food crops/livestock), and market hunting (hunting to sell the animal parts for a profit) both have resulted in significant reductions in animals targeted, and in some cases outright extinction, but sport hunting, especially regulated sport hunting, has to the best of my knowledge never resulted in an outcome like that, generally it's the oppposite.

The other thing to consider is that people don't like the idea of large predators skulking around where their kids and pets might play.


THIS.

Well-regulated market hunting would be a tremendous idea in those parts of the country overrun by deer. There's expensive restaurants around me serving New Zealand venison when on any given day there's a couple hundred tasty, tasty deer within a few miles of their front door.
 
2012-04-10 09:56:50 AM

Gulper Eel: THIS.

Well-regulated market hunting would be a tremendous idea in those parts of the country overrun by deer. There's expensive restaurants around me serving New Zealand venison when on any given day there's a couple hundred tasty, tasty deer within a few miles of their front door.


Yeah, but you'll probably still run into the problem of large chunks of huntable land being off-limits.
 
2012-04-10 10:08:27 AM

dittybopper: Gulper Eel: THIS.

Well-regulated market hunting would be a tremendous idea in those parts of the country overrun by deer. There's expensive restaurants around me serving New Zealand venison when on any given day there's a couple hundred tasty, tasty deer within a few miles of their front door.

Yeah, but you'll probably still run into the problem of large chunks of huntable land being off-limits.


I think many of the people with the huntable land could be persuaded with a percentage of whatever the hunter is making.
 
2012-04-10 10:09:03 AM
i52.tinypic.com

What time is it? After 5:00? Damn. Time to go rape me some fine biatches.
 
2012-04-10 10:11:42 AM

dittybopper: I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig


I agree with your points. Came to ridicule your sentence structure and archery skillz.
 
2012-04-10 10:16:24 AM

Gulper Eel: dittybopper: Gulper Eel: THIS.

Well-regulated market hunting would be a tremendous idea in those parts of the country overrun by deer. There's expensive restaurants around me serving New Zealand venison when on any given day there's a couple hundred tasty, tasty deer within a few miles of their front door.

Yeah, but you'll probably still run into the problem of large chunks of huntable land being off-limits.

I think many of the people with the huntable land could be persuaded with a percentage of whatever the hunter is making.


Much, if not most, huntable land that is off limits is so because the owners are opposed to hunting in general. I can't imagine that the amount of money they would make from allowing commercial hunting would be significant enough to change that attitude.
 
2012-04-10 10:22:01 AM

MrBallou: dittybopper: I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig

I agree with your points. Came to ridicule your sentence structure and archery skillz.


Ridicule my sentence structure all you want, but unless you use archery tackle like this:

img189.imageshack.us

you've got no room to ridicule my archery skillz.

/Dad made the bow
//I made the arrows, and the quiver, and I made the handle and arrow-rest for the bow.
 
2012-04-10 10:30:30 AM

dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig

I agree with your points. Came to ridicule your sentence structure and archery skillz.

Ridicule my sentence structure all you want, but unless you use archery tackle like this:

[img189.imageshack.us image 640x201]

you've got no room to ridicule my archery skillz.

/Dad made the bow
//I made the arrows, and the quiver, and I made the handle and arrow-rest for the bow.


Apologies. I have shot in the general direction of things without result many times, so I was actually sympathizing. That rig is awesome. Cool your dad made it.
 
2012-04-10 10:31:14 AM

dittybopper: Much, if not most, huntable land that is off limits is so because the owners are opposed to hunting in general.


I get that, living in a place where a lot of city folk buy second homes and start off being weirded out by the usual rural smells...but after the third time they have to pull hunks of Bambi out of the grille of their Range Rover, or the third time they have to go in for Lyme treatments, or the first time a herd of deer eats $10,000 worth of their fancy garden, they get just as sick of deer as the locals.

The way one part-time neighbor of mine put it, they wouldn't mind letting hunters use their property long as it was somebody from the area and not...quoting now...some goombah from Bensonhurst.
 
2012-04-10 10:36:51 AM

Gulper Eel: dittybopper: Much, if not most, huntable land that is off limits is so because the owners are opposed to hunting in general.

I get that, living in a place where a lot of city folk buy second homes and start off being weirded out by the usual rural smells...but after the third time they have to pull hunks of Bambi out of the grille of their Range Rover, or the third time they have to go in for Lyme treatments, or the first time a herd of deer eats $10,000 worth of their fancy garden, they get just as sick of deer as the locals.

The way one part-time neighbor of mine put it, they wouldn't mind letting hunters use their property long as it was somebody from the area and not...quoting now...some goombah from Bensonhurst.


I live on the edge of a large forested suburban park. The rich folks with MacMansions nearby have so much trouble like you describe that the authorities stage nighttime "control" hunts, using helicopters with thermal imaging and ninja-like teams of deer assassins.
 
2012-04-10 10:49:22 AM

dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig

I agree with your points. Came to ridicule your sentence structure and archery skillz.

Ridicule my sentence structure all you want, but unless you use archery tackle like this:

[img189.imageshack.us image 640x201]

you've got no room to ridicule my archery skillz.

/Dad made the bow
//I made the arrows, and the quiver, and I made the handle and arrow-rest for the bow.


So you practice felching? *ducks*
 
2012-04-10 10:55:15 AM
That's my dream job right there: Releasing large, hungry wolves into the wild and knowing that I'm actually making the world a better place. Where else could a person do such a thing?
 
2012-04-10 10:55:16 AM

MrBallou: dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig

I agree with your points. Came to ridicule your sentence structure and archery skillz.

Ridicule my sentence structure all you want, but unless you use archery tackle like this:

[img189.imageshack.us image 640x201]

you've got no room to ridicule my archery skillz.

/Dad made the bow
//I made the arrows, and the quiver, and I made the handle and arrow-rest for the bow.

Apologies. I have shot in the general direction of things without result many times, so I was actually sympathizing. That rig is awesome. Cool your dad made it.


I was *TOO* good with my wheelie bow. The terror of lawn decorations everywhere:

img138.imageshack.us

That deer never stood a chance.
 
2012-04-10 10:56:30 AM

Your Zionist Leader: So you practice felching? *ducks*


How do you felch a duck?
 
2012-04-10 10:56:50 AM

dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig

I agree with your points. Came to ridicule your sentence structure and archery skillz.

Ridicule my sentence structure all you want, but unless you use archery tackle like this:

[img189.imageshack.us image 640x201]

you've got no room to ridicule my archery skillz.

/Dad made the bow
//I made the arrows, and the quiver, and I made the handle and arrow-rest for the bow.

Apologies. I have shot in the general direction of things without result many times, so I was actually sympathizing. That rig is awesome. Cool your dad made it.

I was *TOO* good with my wheelie bow. The terror of lawn decorations everywhere:

[img138.imageshack.us image 640x480]

That deer never stood a chance.


He was asking for it.
 
2012-04-10 10:58:59 AM

dittybopper: Your Zionist Leader: So you practice felching? *ducks*

How do you felch a duck?


I think the real question is, how can he stop felching ducks?
 
2012-04-10 11:07:00 AM
Anyone who moves into areas where natural predation occurs, builds, has a family and then begins to kill off those animals for the safety of their household is a coont. You didn't want critters skulking by where you live, your kids play, your little rat-fark dogs bark and shiat all over, don't farking move there.
 
2012-04-10 11:07:26 AM

MrBallou: dittybopper: Your Zionist Leader: So you practice felching? *ducks*

How do you felch a duck?

I think the real question is, how can he stop felching ducks?


That's simple: Just send him the bill.
 
2012-04-10 11:10:48 AM
I once had some hippie-type tell me that the main reason ranchers have a problem with wolves is that they use federal land to free graze their herds. Does anyone know if this is accurate? And, if not, is it ridiculous to expect ranchers and farmers to use genetically engineered working/killing machines (dogs) to protect their investments?
 
2012-04-10 11:11:37 AM

dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig

I agree with your points. Came to ridicule your sentence structure and archery skillz.

Ridicule my sentence structure all you want, but unless you use archery tackle like this:

[img189.imageshack.us image 640x201]

you've got no room to ridicule my archery skillz.

/Dad made the bow
//I made the arrows, and the quiver, and I made the handle and arrow-rest for the bow.


That set up is all awesome n' stuff, but when you are going after a predator threatening you kid, you're dealing in serious business. Not the time to be going for style points.

/Envious - Really wish I could shoot an English longbow
//Still think you should have used a shotgun. Bows are for deer.
 
2012-04-10 11:13:54 AM

dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: Your Zionist Leader: So you practice felching? *ducks*

How do you felch a duck?

I think the real question is, how can he stop felching ducks?

That's simple: Just send him the bill.


You quack me up.
 
2012-04-10 11:16:46 AM

TopoGigo: I once had some hippie-type tell me that the main reason ranchers have a problem with wolves is that they use federal land to free graze their herds. Does anyone know if this is accurate? And, if not, is it ridiculous to expect ranchers and farmers to use genetically engineered working/killing machines (dogs) to protect their investments?


I'd think the wolves killing of livestock is the biggest gripe of farmers. Second biggest gripe would be that wolves can't be contained on federal land and can roam onto private property. Of course ranchers graze federal land. It's the reason land for sale abutting federal/national parkland sells so well. You are almost guaranteed to have no neighbors for a long, long time. And as long as one doesn't destory the land, fell it's lumber, shoot it's protected animals, it's yours to romp around on as much as anyone.
 
2012-04-10 11:19:15 AM

leviosaurus:

That set up is all awesome n' stuff, but when you are going after a predator threatening you kid, you're dealing in serious business. Not the time to be going for style points.

/Envious - Really wish I could shoot an English longbow
//Still think you should have used a shotgun. Bows are for deer.


If you are really serious, just put out some snare traps, check them a few times a day and leave the dead carcass there (as long as it is far enough way to not smell) as a warning to the others.

I just got back from Rocky Mountain National Park. The elk herd there is now enourmous. So unchecked, they now are fencing off aspen groves to save the trees from the teaming elk. From what my cousin was telling me, they are finally talking about to start serious efforts to cull the herd. But they want to pay special marksmens to come in and do it. I think they should setup moderately to high priced, guided hunts and use the earned money to support the park. I imagine they would have a pretty good waiting list to hunt that area.
 
2012-04-10 11:23:07 AM

leviosaurus: That set up is all awesome n' stuff, but when you are going after a predator threatening you kid, you're dealing in serious business. Not the time to be going for style points.

/Envious - Really wish I could shoot an English longbow
//Still think you should have used a shotgun. Bows are for deer.


Well, it was more to discourage, and I was hunting in an area where guns aren't necessarily a good idea, and I had already gotten rid of the wheelie bow.

Oddly enough, while other measures to discourage them pretty much failed miserably, actively hunting them *DID* work: I killed one, missed another, and went out a number of times where I didn't see anything, but it seems to have actively discouraged them. Haven't had a problem with them coming into backyards in 3 years or so. They stay back in the woods now, which is fine.

/Neighborhood is at least 50 years old.
 
2012-04-10 11:25:16 AM

rudemix: TopoGigo: I once had some hippie-type tell me that the main reason ranchers have a problem with wolves is that they use federal land to free graze their herds. Does anyone know if this is accurate? And, if not, is it ridiculous to expect ranchers and farmers to use genetically engineered working/killing machines (dogs) to protect their investments?

I'd think the wolves killing of livestock is the biggest gripe of farmers. Second biggest gripe would be that wolves can't be contained on federal land and can roam onto private property. Of course ranchers graze federal land. It's the reason land for sale abutting federal/national parkland sells so well. You are almost guaranteed to have no neighbors for a long, long time. And as long as one doesn't destory the land, fell it's lumber, shoot it's protected animals, it's yours to romp around on as much as anyone.


Yeah I still remember on the news the big stink caused when they released wolves into Yellowstone. A lot of the local ranchers were up in arms about what would happen to their herds. I think in the end after all the court fights was basically the park service would pay for any livestock killed by wolves and if you caught a wolf on your property you could kill it. I may be wrong though it was a while ago.
 
2012-04-10 11:35:04 AM

rudemix: Anyone who moves into areas where natural predation occurs, builds, has a family and then begins to kill off those animals for the safety of their household is a coont. You didn't want critters skulking by where you live, your kids play, your little rat-fark dogs bark and shiat all over, don't farking move there.


Actually, where the wolves are conderned in the intermountain west, the wolves were transplanted in 1995. Most of us were already here when the wolves were brought in.
 
2012-04-10 11:39:37 AM

TopoGigo: once had some hippie-type tell me that the main reason ranchers have a problem with wolves is that they use federal land to free graze their herds. Does anyone know if this is accurate? And, if not, is it ridiculous to expect ranchers and farmers to use genetically engineered working/killing machines (dogs) to protect their investments?


Wolves will kill cattle on private land or federal land. It really does not matter where they are. Wolves tend to ignore human boudaries. However, wolve predation on livestock is a major concern for ranchers. They can have a big impact, not only killing but by stressing the rest of the herd and haveing pregnant cows abort their calves. Most state and federal agencies were pretty proactive about revmoving problem wolves, but that was not always sucessful.

And guard dogs really dont help much as they end up just as dead as the livestock they are protecting. They work well for the coyotes and single wolves. For a pack of wolves, however, they don't stand much of a chance.
 
2012-04-10 11:45:43 AM

rudemix: I'd think the wolves killing of livestock is the biggest gripe of farmers.


That is true. Another big issue we are having with wolves is the decimation of several elk populations. It has become bad enough in some hunting areas that all elk tags have been pulled and no hunting is allowed. This is a big issue for hunters as it reduces their ability to hunt and it also hits the state in the pocketbook. Idaho has estimated that it loses about 25 to 30 million each year due to the impact of big game herds by wolves. Of course, just recently, wolves themselves have become a big game animial that has a hunting season. The selling of these tags have helped to offset some of this loss or revenue.
 
2012-04-10 11:46:27 AM
It just seems to me that if you don't have a fence line on your property, possibly with a pack of dogs (rottweilers were bred for herding as well as guarding cattle, Irish wolfhounds were bred to kill wolves, etc.) then you can't really complain too much about predation. Asking the government to protect your interests over others' on federal land doesn't seem quite fair, especially since a good portion of those people are "don't take no handouts" free-market types. That's just my uninformed opinion, though, as I'm no kind of ranching expert.
 
2012-04-10 11:49:34 AM
If there are no more Predators, who will play them in chess?

laughingsquid.com
 
2012-04-10 11:51:41 AM

groppet: Yeah I still remember on the news the big stink caused when they released wolves into Yellowstone. A lot of the local ranchers were up in arms about what would happen to their herds. I think in the end after all the court fights was basically the park service would pay for any livestock killed by wolves and if you caught a wolf on your property you could kill it. I may be wrong though it was a while ago.


The money that was used to reimburst ranchers for livstock was set up by the Defenders of Wildlife and was only good if the kill could be confirmed by a necropsy performed by a FWS agent. This was also only good for as long as the wolves were listed by the ESA. However, it was a pretty sucessful program, overall.

Over the last couple of years, wolves have bounced on and then off the ESA list due to multiple delistings and subsequent court challenges by Environmental Groups. Finally, wolves were delisted by a Congressional Rider last year and this one seems to be sticking (the CBD just lost thier court case to the 9th Circuit here a few weeks ago).
 
2012-04-10 11:57:37 AM

TopoGigo: It just seems to me that if you don't have a fence line on your property, possibly with a pack of dogs (rottweilers were bred for herding as well as guarding cattle, Irish wolfhounds were bred to kill wolves, etc.) then you can't really complain too much about predation.


Most ranchers property is already fenced, however, wolves don't pay too much attentionn to NO TRESSPASSING signs. And a pack of rottys are not going to be able to patrol a couple of thousand of acres. They may protect a pasture or two, but not the entire ranch. Guard dogs have limited success anyway. In fact some wolves are actually attracted by other dogs.

Asking the government to protect your interests over others' on federal land doesn't seem quite fair,

In the big picture, the wolf issue is more about overall management and how to balance livestock usage, big game herds, eco tourism, and many different intersts. It is a tightrope where those on the extreme sides are very passionate and very kooky.
 
2012-04-10 12:01:06 PM

HeadLever: Another big issue we are having with wolves is the decimation of several elk populations. It has become bad enough in some hunting areas that all elk tags have been pulled and no hunting is allowed. This is a big issue for hunters as it reduces their ability to hunt


Wolves have coexisted with Elk for centuries, so sorry, you can't blame them.

Sickens me how people have fridges full of food and still go out to kill animals for fun. I'm aware of the propaganda saying humans have to kill things because nature is stupid and needs our help, but when you consider how large and balanced animal populations were before we started screwing with things, it's revealed as BS.
 
2012-04-10 12:10:21 PM

J. Frank Parnell: Wolves have coexisted with Elk for centuries, so sorry, you can't blame them.


True, but it is a different world today. Today big game herds (and the ability to hunt them) are important to the state's fiscal well being, plus this money goes to fund much of the states wildlife and conservation efforts.

You are correct. Wolves are only doing what wolves do. However, there are very few that believe that we should not be managing them. There is no way you can manage the big game populations without also managing the apex predator.

Sickens me how people have fridges full of food and still go out to kill animals for fun.

I have a entire freezer filled with elk and deer hamburfer, steak, sausage, etc. I love to hunt because it is fun. It also fills the freezer. Win-win in my book.

I'm aware of the propaganda saying humans have to kill things because nature is stupid and needs our help,

Nature is not stuipid, it is, however a dynamic system. Humans hate things with boom and bust cycles and in order to level this cycle out, managment is used. Nature no longer a vacuum in most places. This means that there is huge interaction between the human world and nature. Pretending that we can be hands-off and isolate ourseves from each other is not only wrong, but dangerous.
 
2012-04-10 12:10:29 PM

rudemix: TopoGigo: I once had some hippie-type tell me that the main reason ranchers have a problem with wolves is that they use federal land to free graze their herds. Does anyone know if this is accurate? And, if not, is it ridiculous to expect ranchers and farmers to use genetically engineered working/killing machines (dogs) to protect their investments?
I'd think the wolves killing of livestock is the biggest gripe of farmers. Second biggest gripe would be that wolves can't be contained on federal land and can roam onto private property. Of course ranchers graze federal land. It's the reason land for sale abutting federal/national parkland sells so well. You are almost guaranteed to have no neighbors for a long, long time. And as long as one doesn't destory the land, fell it's lumber, shoot it's protected animals, it's yours to romp around on as much as anyone.


They use federal land because the habitat out here (that would be the west) isn't good enough to support cows unless the rancher has a whole lot of land. So they have federal land leases. And they have A LOT of them, plus they've had them for so long that they tend to think of the land as theirs. This worked out fine when nobody lived out here, but now it's starting to cause problems, because everybody else likes to use those federal lands too, and maybe the feds would like to do some things with the land too--like re-introduce wolves onto it.

The problem with the federal lands is that EVERYONE thinks that it is "theirs" and they should be free to do whatever they want with it. It's gotten much worse since ATVs were invented. But have you noticed--people are farking pigs and tend to destroy anything they have unlimited access to. And then they scream and yell about how the government is interfering with their rights because they shut down a road or restrict certain activities in some places.

America, fark yeah!--if it's not mine to destroy any way I want to, it must be the government's fault.
 
2012-04-10 12:15:37 PM

cryinoutloud: And they have A LOT of them, plus they've had them for so long that they tend to think of the land as theirs.


Not really. But it is good of you to put words in thier mouth. Makes them seem more evil that way and allows you to push you agenda a little further.

The problem with the federal lands is that EVERYONE thinks that it is "theirs" and they should be free to do whatever they want with it.

Not really. These lands are managed for multiple use and they do well with that. Yes, there is conflict as there always will be when you try to merge muliple uses like recreation and logging/mining, etc. However, no one I know thinks the land they play or work on is 'theirs'. It is called public land for a reason.
 
2012-04-10 12:19:01 PM

dittybopper: FTFA:
It also concludes that human hunting, due to its limited duration and impact, is not effective in preventing hyper-abundant densities of large herbivores. This is partly "because hunting by humans is often not functionally equivalent to predation by large, wide-ranging carnivores such as wolves," the researchers wrote in their report.

That's because it's that way BY DESIGN. Sport hunting regulations are designed to increase the availability of game species, and they serve very well for that purpose.

Of the three main types of hunting, sport, subsistence, and market hunting, only sport hunting generally results in an increase in population of the animals targeted. Subsistence hunting (hunting for food, or to protect food crops/livestock), and market hunting (hunting to sell the animal parts for a profit) both have resulted in significant reductions in animals targeted, and in some cases outright extinction, but sport hunting, especially regulated sport hunting, has to the best of my knowledge never resulted in an outcome like that, generally it's the oppposite.

The other thing to consider is that people don't like the idea of large predators skulking around where their kids and pets might play. Example: A few years ago we had a coyote problem in my area. They were entirely too comfortable with human presence, and getting too close for comfort. Especially considering that the distaffbopper and I, and most of our neighbors, had young children (littlebopper was 5 or 6 at the time, small enough for a desperate coyote to try attacking). I shot one of them, and another one of the coyotes died presumably from natural causes (that one had a lame front paw), and I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig. Since then I can hear them calling occasionally in the woods behind the house, but they stay away from the houses, which is as it should be.


Even "table" hunters don't really make a dent int he population. Most people I know that shoot deer to supplement thier diet can maybe make use of one , maybe two good-sized deer a year, and that's to feed their whole family. If you're using the organ meats for sausage and otherwise "using the whole deer" a 150 deer will give you about 75lbs of useable meat. figure most people eat4-6 oz of meat with their main meal and a family of four is only going through about 1-1/2lb a day even if it is their sole protein source. At that rate, you'd max out at 4-6 deer a year or about 1 1/2 per person. Given how they breed that simply isn't enough to keep the populations stable much less decreasing.
 
2012-04-10 12:21:25 PM

J. Frank Parnell: HeadLever: Another big issue we are having with wolves is the decimation of several elk populations. It has become bad enough in some hunting areas that all elk tags have been pulled and no hunting is allowed. This is a big issue for hunters as it reduces their ability to hunt

Wolves have coexisted with Elk for centuries, so sorry, you can't blame them.

Sickens me how people have fridges full of food and still go out to kill animals for fun. I'm aware of the propaganda saying humans have to kill things because nature is stupid and needs our help, but when you consider how large and balanced animal populations were before we started screwing with things, it's revealed as BS.


If you want to *PROTECT* a species, get sport hunters interested in killing them. They will then lobby the government for protective laws and habitat preservation, and they will also spend millions of dollars to preserve habitat for those animals.

You may not *LIKE* it, but the fact of the matter is the best way to ensure that there is a plethora of charismatic megafauna is to get Bubba McRedneck interested in mounting it's head on his living room wall.

Conversely, supporting subsistence hunting does the opposite: Animals hunted strictly for food don't generally get the protections inherent in sport hunting, because Starvy McTenmouthstofeed doesn't give a rats ass if the left-handed Jackalope is endangered, he just wants to feed his kids.

Here is a little bit of interesting history to support the idea: In Appalachia during the early to mid 1800's, local gun makers went from making guns in calibers suitable for bear, deer, elk, etc., roughly .44 to .54 caliber, down to making guns of smaller caliber, .40 caliber or less, generally in the .32 to .36 caliber range. Why? Because all the big game was hunted out. All they had left to shoot were rabbits, squirrels, possums, raccoons, birds, and other small game. Some of that was probably due to market hunting, but in the backwoods, it was almost certainly mainly due to subsistence hunting.
 
2012-04-10 12:24:02 PM

dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: Your Zionist Leader: So you practice felching? *ducks*

How do you felch a duck?

I think the real question is, how can he stop felching ducks?

That's simple: Just send him the bill.


Eider know about that
 
2012-04-10 12:25:09 PM

Magorn: Even "table" hunters don't really make a dent int he population. Most people I know that shoot deer to supplement thier diet can maybe make use of one , maybe two good-sized deer a year, and that's to feed their whole family. If you're using the organ meats for sausage and otherwise "using the whole deer" a 150 deer will give you about 75lbs of useable meat. figure most people eat4-6 oz of meat with their main meal and a family of four is only going through about 1-1/2lb a day even if it is their sole protein source. At that rate, you'd max out at 4-6 deer a year or about 1 1/2 per person. Given how they breed that simply isn't enough to keep the populations stable much less decreasing.


"Table" hunters *CAN'T* make a dent simply because the regulations are stacked against them. They are designed for sport hunting to stabilize and increase the population of deer. They *COULD* have more of an effect, if they weren't fettered by quite so many regulations.
 
2012-04-10 12:33:18 PM

TopoGigo: I once had some hippie-type tell me that the main reason ranchers have a problem with wolves is that they use federal land to free graze their herds. Does anyone know if this is accurate? And, if not, is it ridiculous to expect ranchers and farmers to use genetically engineered working/killing machines (dogs) to protect their investments?


Ranchers often graze thier livestock on federal land and do so at below-market rates. Most of the Wolf-hating comes from sheep farmers whose livestock is more vulnerable to wolf predation and who, since there haven't BEEN any wolves fro a long time haven't had to use traditional wolf protection methods such as stationing a shepherd in the fields (why do you think David was so good with that sling?) or keeping on of the many breeds of dogs whose name ends in "shepherd" (which as you say have been breed for a couple millena to be perfectly bio-engineered livestock protectors) or even keeping Llamas or Ostriches in with the sheep flock (Ostrich can decapitate a lion with one kick).

They resent having to do so now because even the care an up keep of a few dogs is a significant enough expense that it affect thier bottom lines. So to them the equation is fewer wolves=more profit, and to hell with what they may do to the greater ecology
 
2012-04-10 12:36:17 PM

dittybopper: "Table" hunters *CAN'T* make a dent simply because the regulations are stacked against them. They are designed for sport hunting to stabilize and increase the population of deer. They *COULD* have more of an effect, if they weren't fettered by quite so many regulations.


True in systems that are managed properly. The biggest issues we have here (before the wolves anyway) was harsh winters that would create a layer of ice over the forage and starvation would kill large numbers. In these winters, many of these sportsmen would then end up buying several tons of hay in order to feed the animals to keep them from starving.
 
2012-04-10 12:36:46 PM

dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: MrBallou: dittybopper: I missed another that I had called in with by kissing my hand with an arrow due to an intervening twig

I agree with your points. Came to ridicule your sentence structure and archery skillz.

Ridicule my sentence structure all you want, but unless you use archery tackle like this:

[img189.imageshack.us image 640x201]

you've got no room to ridicule my archery skillz.

/Dad made the bow
//I made the arrows, and the quiver, and I made the handle and arrow-rest for the bow.

Apologies. I have shot in the general direction of things without result many times, so I was actually sympathizing. That rig is awesome. Cool your dad made it.

I was *TOO* good with my wheelie bow. The terror of lawn decorations everywhere:

[img138.imageshack.us image 640x480]

That deer never stood a chance.


I'm fairly certain such gruesome imagery of dead animal is against the FArQ.

//Sucks at hunting, but I'm getting better.
 
2012-04-10 12:39:23 PM
Stopped reading at loss of bears causes global warming.
 
2012-04-10 12:42:07 PM

meat0918: I'm fairly certain such gruesome imagery of dead animal is against the FArQ.

//Sucks at hunting, but I'm getting better.


That's OK. I've got a couple of alts lined up in case of bannination. One of them is semi-open, and the other is a 'sleeper' that is there but never used and not associated with me in any way just in case I actually really, *REALLY* need it.
 
2012-04-10 12:43:32 PM

dittybopper: meat0918: I'm fairly certain such gruesome imagery of dead animal is against the FArQ.

//Sucks at hunting, but I'm getting better.

That's OK. I've got a couple of alts lined up in case of bannination. One of them is semi-open, and the other is a 'sleeper' that is there but never used and not associated with me in any way just in case I actually really, *REALLY* need it.


Hey, that's a really good idea. I should look into doing something like that. You know, just in case.
 
2012-04-10 12:52:05 PM
I have a two-year supply of alts, beans, and ammo in my suicide, er, survival bunker.
 
2012-04-10 12:53:04 PM

dittybopper: You may not *LIKE* it, but the fact of the matter is the best way to ensure that there is a plethora of charismatic megafauna is to get Bubba McRedneck interested in mounting it's head on his living room wall.


There is no plethora of large animals anywhere humans exist. Just a small percentage of what there was before we showed up. So, so much for that theory.
 
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