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(LA Times)   May as well try the herbal therapy. What's the worst that could happen?   (latimes.com) divider line 40
    More: Obvious, herbal remedies, kidney diseases, tumor suppressor gene, breathing problems, booster doses, National Academy of Sciences, ingredients, health care providers  
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4928 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Apr 2012 at 6:26 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-09 11:49:31 PM
Cancer?
 
2012-04-10 12:26:18 AM
The researchers, from the U.S. and Taiwan, point the finger at an herbal ingredient called aristolochic acid, or AA. It comes from plants, including wild ginger

images4.fanpop.com

Next time go with Mary Ann
 
2012-04-10 01:54:44 AM
Asarum canadense. Thank goodness it is not my herbal medicine.

/That would be a tough choice
 
2012-04-10 02:06:57 AM

foo monkey: Cancer?


No, actually.

You could have a stroke and collapse into a pile of your own shiat and vomit, land wrong and become paralyzed, and then recover just enough to be conscious while you suffocate, immobile in your own feces.
 
2012-04-10 06:39:23 AM

foo monkey: Cancer?


Hardly even knew 'er.
 
2012-04-10 06:43:21 AM
I'm seeing a correlation but not a relative risk.

A lot of these type studies piss me off due to lack or scientific rigor. If you don't have an RR of 1.5 or more then you don't have a find, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen articled get published in the news papers that go on for 600 words before they mention an RR of 1.05, a mere 5% increase in risk. THAT'S NOISE IN THE SYSTEM.

/Not a fan of herbal remedies
//Really not a fan of lousy reporting.
 
2012-04-10 07:52:28 AM

doglover: foo monkey: Cancer?

No, actually.

You could have a stroke and collapse into a pile of your own shiat and vomit, land wrong and become paralyzed, and then recover just enough to be conscious while you suffocate, immobile in your own feces.


Since when is Taco Bell herbal?
 
2012-04-10 07:55:51 AM
The aristolchlics!
 
2012-04-10 08:08:40 AM
So it's still okay to sell Oleander tea?
 
2012-04-10 08:10:19 AM
Well you can put off having that liver transplant, Steve, but I wouldn't recommend it.
 
2012-04-10 08:10:55 AM

cavehobbit: Since when is Taco Bell herbal?


farm5.static.flickr.com
 
2012-04-10 08:17:50 AM
I was going to guess unexpected drug interaction or perhaps heart attack, but cancer works too.

It may surprise the idiots that use this type of thing in lieu of real medicine to discover that herbs are not, in fact, magic, but rather contain (get this) chemicals which can have an effect on biology as well as interact with medicines, other herbs, environmental chemicals, etc. It's almost like many of current real medicines have built on years long experience working with things like herbs and isolating the active compounds into safer and more effective forms. Huh. Imagine that. Science works.

Also, I'm going to go ballistic on the pharmacy manager at my local grocery store one of these days. Those farkwads started mingling voodoo bullshiat in with real cold and cough medicines and unless you're looking for a specific brand you have to be careful not to pick up something with a small "homeopathic" or "herbal remedy" label on the bottom.

Put that shiat in its own aisle. I don't want to accidentally get it thinking I'm trying some different brand of real medicine and I'm sure the retards who buy it don't want to accidentally pick up something that might work, either.
 
2012-04-10 08:23:13 AM

wildcardjack: A lot of these type studies piss me off due to lack or scientific rigor. If you don't have an RR of 1.5 or more then you don't have a find, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen articled get published in the news papers that go on for 600 words before they mention an RR of 1.05, a mere 5% increase in risk. THAT'S NOISE IN THE SYSTEM.


Is the problem in the studies, or is it the way they're reported by popular media? My favorite example is the study from a few years back where researches found some correlation between sleeping > 8 hours a night and dying younger. The researchers merely pointed out their findings with the standard caveats of "we don't know why we found this, this needs to be reviewed and retested, we need more controls to see what was happening" but, of course, when it got to the media virtually every article was "SLEEPING MORE THAN 8 HOURS A NIGHT SHORTENS LIFESPAN!!!111" which, of course, was a completely and utterly false statement based on what the researchers had actually put in the journal.

/ in before science - news - grandma comic?
 
2012-04-10 08:26:09 AM
27.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-04-10 08:49:27 AM

Splinshints: Is the problem in the studies, or is it the way they're reported by popular media?


Both. When a study finds a 5% increased risk it needs to be canned. If reporters had any knowledge of statistics they would also toss it out.

Instead every study that reports an increase gets reported on. Last week we saw that when someone actually went to check results most of the landmark studies were crap.
Researcher finds that he's unable to verify 47 of 53 of major cancer studies. (new window)
 
2012-04-10 08:51:10 AM
You know what they call alternative medicine that works?

Medicine.

/Tim Minchin FTW
 
2012-04-10 08:53:17 AM
If you actually read the paper they go through the steps of identifying the mutations in their patient population, noting that there is an uncharacteristically high rate of A-T to T-A transversions which are usually caused by AA's, identifying breakdown products of AA's in the majority of their patients and also noting that 84% of those patients with A-T to T-A transversions tested positive for AA breakdown products, and finally did some epidemiological stuff that shows Taiwanese people aka herbal medicine users have much higher incidence rates. This isn't some study where they send out a questionnaire and then try to correlate things, there's actually some wet lab stuff going on here. I'm not a cancer biologist (evolutionary bio) but it seems pretty solid to me.
 
2012-04-10 08:57:47 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a major phamaceutical company did this study along with a helpful cadre of allopathic "doctors".

Splinshints:
It may surprise the idiots that use this type of thing in lieu of real medicine to discover that herbs are not, in fact, magic, but rather contain (get this) chemicals

Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.
 
2012-04-10 09:09:25 AM

No Such Agency: And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.


The beneficial effects of drinking filtered water, but in pill forms?
 
2012-04-10 09:15:53 AM

No Such Agency: Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.


i49.photobucket.com
 
2012-04-10 09:17:42 AM

wildcardjack: No Such Agency: Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.

[i49.photobucket.com image 500x224]


I sure hope not. The only thing chemical free is a perfect vacuum.
 
2012-04-10 09:27:46 AM
No Such Agency:
Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.

...except that a lot of the "organic" and "natural" herbal supplements you find from some shops are "traditional" ones from India and China... which have additions like arsenic, lead, and mercury. Some times they have enough to be immediately life-threatening.

Sure, they SAY the products are "natural and organic," but they're lying.

That's the funny thing. Once you get outside of "mainstream medicine," you also often get outside of "mainstream consumer protection laws."
 
2012-04-10 09:40:35 AM
I'm convinced that there has never been a safe medication or supplement for weight loss and there never will be. I know some people have more difficulty losing weight than others, but, other than taking a prescribed medication for a legitimate endocrine disorder that is affecting more than just a persons' weight, for the most part a person is better off being fat than taking a "miracle" weight loss supplement.
 
2012-04-10 09:45:41 AM
Ya'll, No Such Agency is teasing. Chuckle and move on.
 
2012-04-10 09:56:18 AM

wildcardjack: No Such Agency: Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.

[notsureifserious.jpg]


I think he is totally serious and I believe him. A properly made homeopathic remedy of these organic herbs will be completely chemical free.
 
2012-04-10 10:04:56 AM
wingnut396:
A properly made homeopathic remedy of these organic herbs will be completely chemical free.

One does have to be careful to avoid hihydrogen monoxide, which can be fatal in sufficient dosage. In 2007 over 3,900 people in the US died from dihydrogen monoxide exposure, with estimated additional thousands of nonfatal exposures which can cause permanent disability.
 
2012-04-10 10:09:28 AM

wingnut396: wildcardjack: No Such Agency: Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.

[notsureifserious.jpg]

I think he is totally serious and I believe him. A properly made homeopathic remedy of these organic herbs will be completely chemical free.


Dude, it might have dihydrodgen monoxide, so be careful there.
 
2012-04-10 10:17:27 AM

No Such Agency: wingnut396:
A properly made homeopathic remedy of these organic herbs will be completely chemical free.

One does have to be careful to avoid hihydrogen monoxide, which can be fatal in sufficient dosage. In 2007 over 3,900 people in the US died from dihydrogen monoxide exposure, with estimated additional thousands of nonfatal exposures which can cause permanent disability.


That's what I get for reading the thread and not refreshing before commenting.
 
2012-04-10 10:29:55 AM

No Such Agency: wingnut396:
A properly made homeopathic remedy of these organic herbs will be completely chemical free.

One does have to be careful to avoid hihydrogen monoxide, which can be fatal in sufficient dosage. In 2007 over 3,900 people in the US died from dihydrogen monoxide exposure, with estimated additional thousands of nonfatal exposures which can cause permanent disability.


Thats why I take my homeopathic remedies, strap them to my abdomen, and then get in one of those shaker exercise machines from the 70s. This transfers the vibration memory the hihydrogen holds in the bottle of remedy from directly to the hihydrogen in my bodily tissues.

You do have to limit the time you are in the exerciser though, as too much can cause the solution to strengthen in dosage, especially if you consume some and then top it off from a purified source. Every once in a while, you just need to toss the whole bottle out and start over.
 
2012-04-10 11:06:28 AM
http://whatstheharm.net/ ^


Koalaesq: /Tim Minchin FTW


Indeed. I'm also a fan of the Dara O'Briain^ routine on that premise.

"Dietitian is like Dentist and Nutritionist is like... Toothiologist."
=Smidge=
 
2012-04-10 11:19:21 AM
The study only says your risk will increase if you're taking this in Taiwan, so I'm pretty sure I'm safe here back in the States.
 
2012-04-10 12:13:11 PM

JohnAnnArbor: Dude, it might have dihydrodgen monoxide, so be careful there.


Liquid dihydrogen monoxide is especially toxic when ingested into the lungs.
 
2012-04-10 01:25:23 PM

cirby: No Such Agency:
Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.

...except that a lot of the "organic" and "natural" herbal supplements you find from some shops are "traditional" ones from India and China... which have additions like arsenic, lead, and mercury. Some times they have enough to be immediately life-threatening.

Sure, they SAY the products are "natural and organic," but they're lying.

That's the funny thing. Once you get outside of "mainstream medicine," you also often get outside of "mainstream consumer protection laws."


Those rules are always holding the little man down. Surely the innocent Rousseau tribesmen that gather the root or berry du jour can't be expected to do some kind of testing. Perhaps we can stipulate their village wise man take a peek at every so many lots.
 
2012-04-10 01:29:55 PM

Lunaville: I'm convinced that there has never been a safe medication or supplement for weight loss and there never will be. I know some people have more difficulty losing weight than others, but, other than taking a prescribed medication for a legitimate endocrine disorder that is affecting more than just a persons' weight, for the most part a person is better off being fat than taking a "miracle" weight loss supplement.


Any weight loss supplement that "works" does so by seriously messing with core processes. Decreased absorption or jacking up the metabolism carry serious side effects.

Or, I guess you can ingest ascaris and hope for the best.
 
2012-04-10 01:34:08 PM

Fano: cirby: No Such Agency:
Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.

...except that a lot of the "organic" and "natural" herbal supplements you find from some shops are "traditional" ones from India and China... which have additions like arsenic, lead, and mercury. Some times they have enough to be immediately life-threatening.

Sure, they SAY the products are "natural and organic," but they're lying.

That's the funny thing. Once you get outside of "mainstream medicine," you also often get outside of "mainstream consumer protection laws."

Those rules are always holding the little man down. Surely the innocent Rousseau tribesmen that gather the root or berry du jour can't be expected to do some kind of testing. Perhaps we can stipulate their village wise man take a peek at every so many lots.


Homeopathy is a multimillion dollar industry using factories, and they advertise their products as though they are medicinal in nature, but they are not inspected and approved by the FDA. It would be better to stipulate that the CEOs and the other suits have to open their factories to FDA inspection and submit their products for approval, but then the homeopaths would have to admit that their products are not medicinal but merely sugar water and soap scum.
 
2012-04-10 01:40:28 PM

rebelyell2006: Fano: cirby: No Such Agency:
Well obviously, they only contain chemicals if you don't buy the organic, 100% natural herbals. Buying the non-organic ones will of course expose you to chemicals. But the organic ones are by definition chemical-free. And properly succussed homeopathic preparations will remove the toxic effects of undesirable compounds while maintaining the beneficial effects.

...except that a lot of the "organic" and "natural" herbal supplements you find from some shops are "traditional" ones from India and China... which have additions like arsenic, lead, and mercury. Some times they have enough to be immediately life-threatening.

Sure, they SAY the products are "natural and organic," but they're lying.

That's the funny thing. Once you get outside of "mainstream medicine," you also often get outside of "mainstream consumer protection laws."

Those rules are always holding the little man down. Surely the innocent Rousseau tribesmen that gather the root or berry du jour can't be expected to do some kind of testing. Perhaps we can stipulate their village wise man take a peek at every so many lots.

Homeopathy is a multimillion dollar industry using factories, and they advertise their products as though they are medicinal in nature, but they are not inspected and approved by the FDA. It would be better to stipulate that the CEOs and the other suits have to open their factories to FDA inspection and submit their products for approval, but then the homeopaths would have to admit that their products are not medicinal but merely sugar water and soap scum.


There never seems to be a talk about how much money "Big Nutra" makes.
 
2012-04-10 02:51:11 PM
What Big Nutra may look like.

markmaynard.com
 
2012-04-10 08:03:51 PM

Splinshints: I was going to guess unexpected drug interaction or perhaps heart attack, but cancer works too.

It may surprise the idiots that use this type of thing in lieu of real medicine to discover that herbs are not, in fact, magic, but rather contain (get this) chemicals which can have an effect on biology as well as interact with medicines, other herbs, environmental chemicals, etc. It's almost like many of current real medicines have built on years long experience working with things like herbs and isolating the active compounds into safer and more effective forms. Huh. Imagine that. Science works.

Also, I'm going to go ballistic on the pharmacy manager at my local grocery store one of these days. Those farkwads started mingling voodoo bullshiat in with real cold and cough medicines and unless you're looking for a specific brand you have to be careful not to pick up something with a small "homeopathic" or "herbal remedy" label on the bottom.

Put that shiat in its own aisle. I don't want to accidentally get it thinking I'm trying some different brand of real medicine and I'm sure the retards who buy it don't want to accidentally pick up something that might work, either.


Define 'real' medicine. chemicals is chemicals.... There are certain side-effects to any and EVERY chemical that achieves some alteration within your body, from caffeine, to aspirin, to seaweed.

The only difference between herbal and non-herbal, is that one of the groups bothered to pay off the FDA.
 
2012-04-10 10:54:04 PM
What "herbal therapy" might look like.

boardfreeads.com
 
2012-04-10 11:47:04 PM
www.trbimg.com

What is this illustration from the article illustrating? Why does the person have a tape measure around their head? Is there some problem with head swelling in the future or something?
 
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