redmid17: Where are you getting all these details from? Martin ran from Zinmermang? And Zimmermang physically detained him? Source please.

In Zimmerman's 911 call he says that Martin is running from him, and he says that he's following. He's then found standing over a dead body in a back yard. He didn't teleport there. He got to that back yard because he was chasing Martin.

If you haven't listened to the 911 call by now, you shouldn't be posting.

Ishkur: I do believe the 911 call states just that very thing. It is the purest evidence we have at the moment.

And as was pointed out to you many times already, the 911 call only shows that at a maximum George Zimmerman moved to the back of the housing complex to observe the direction Martin was running to relay to the police. The 911 operator literally asked him "which way is running to?" as he begins his movement, and there is no indication that Zimmerman continued to move after being suggested not to and lost sight of Martin. He continued on the phone for over 2 minutes and the scene of the altercation was at Zimmerman's location, not further down, which would be the case if he was chasing him.

So unfortunately, the 911 call supports Zimmerman's story as well.

JuggleGeek: redmid17: Where are you getting all these details from? Martin ran from Zinmermang? And Zimmermang physically detained him? Source please.

In Zimmerman's 911 call he says that Martin is running from him, and he says that he's following. He's then found standing over a dead body in a back yard. He didn't teleport there. He got to that back yard because he was chasing Martin.

If you haven't listened to the 911 call by now, you shouldn't be posting.

But listen to it, then willfully misrepresent it is ok, I see.

s2s2s2: JWideman: UCFRoadWarrior: JWideman: Here's the thing that I think black people should try to remember:
There's exactly as much evidence that Zimmerman murdered this kid (as opposed to self-defense) as there was that OJ killed his ex.

You just come from the Black Panther rally?

OJ murdered his ex and Ron Goldman. That is fact...sue me OJ to prove me wrong. When the blood of your victims, especially Ron Goldman, was found in your car....that is very convincing. OJ would have been convicted except for the awful handling of the case by Marcia Clark...who got totally schooled by Johnnie Cochran. OJ got thoroughly destroyed and embarrased in the civil suit

George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense. That is not my opinion, that is fact. The key evidence shows that Martin jumped and was beating Zimmerman when he capped Martin. These "witnesses" that the Lynch Zimmerman media keep bringing up are totally un-credible since they did not see the incident. And, the side of the issue taken by Jew-killing, Black Racist Al Sharpton is always the WRONG side....and those are also facts about Sharpton

I can't tell if you're trolling, sarcastic, or deluded. There's no evidence that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense, and there's no evidence that he did. The only evidence we have at all is that a) Zimmerman acted against both his training and the advice of 911, b) there was a confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin, and c) Zimmerman killed Martin. These are facts. Until a witness comes forward that either contradicts or confirms Zimmerman's claim of self-defense, the rest is speculation.

Zimmerman's response to "we don't need you to do that.":
"ok"

So how do you come to the conclusion he did not comply?

First, he wasn't even supposed to get out of his car. That's the training from both the CCW class he had to take to get licensed in Florida. I'm still not sure if he was officially neighborhood watch or not, but if he was he would have also had training from that, which says the same thing.
"Okay." doesn't mean shiat. Zimmerman claims he was heading back to his car when Martin jumped him from behind, but that doesn't match up with Martin's call. Unless Zimmerman's definition of "jumped from behind" includes someone talking to you, in which case he's a nut anyway. Regardless, Zimmerman should NOT have been patrolling, he should NOT have left his car to pursue the suspect, and he knew it. Any ONE of these things is enough to make him culpable and at the very least he should lose that CCW, as he's demonstrated that he does NOT in fact carry responsibly.

JWideman: "Okay." doesn't mean shiat. Zimmerman claims he was heading back to his car when Martin jumped him from behind, but that doesn't match up with Martin's call. Unless Zimmerman's definition of "jumped from behind" includes someone talking to you, in which case he's a nut anyway. Regardless, Zimmerman should NOT have been patrolling, he should NOT have left his car to pursue the suspect, and he knew it. Any ONE of these things is enough to make him culpable and at the very least he should lose that CCW, as he's demonstrated that he does NOT in fact carry responsibly.

If you want to make the case that getting out of his car was ill-advised, That's OK. We are talking about the law, however, and whether he was legally justified to use self defense.

So you still haven't answered the question how you came to the conclusion that he did not comply with the dispatcher's suggestion.

Because based on where he left his truck and where the scene of the altercation is, all evidence suggests he did.

BeesNuts: Gwendolyn: This whole thing makes me sick. No matter what a person should be able to walk down the damn street and not be shot for being in the wrong neighborhood. No. Matter. What.

Both sides though are doing stupid shiat like point out Trayvon had discipline problems at school and that somehow means Zimmerman got rid of a potential threat down the road so it was OK. The other side does shiat like sending the media pictures of him when he was 12 so he looks like a young kid and in their mind I guess less threatening. Both are pulling the "enhancing" audio crap. The lawyers and organizations are out looking for press and donations

Instead of my original disgust at a 17 year old being killed for buying skittles in the wrong neighborhood I'm just sick of the whole farking thing and its another reason to had the mainstream media.

Ding ding. My feelings exactly. And when the judge opens the case to the press, and the lawyers get a whiff of stardom, they'll full court press for a Murder 1 charge, for which they have no solid evidence and Zimmerman will get off Not Guilty and have to go into hiding. There will be violence against Zimmerman look alikes and plenty of opinion polling to cover any gaps int he 24 hour news cycle for at least a couple of months until another crime can be turned into a high profile media circus and we get to do it all over again.

Nah. It will be even better. Particularly if it is a Long Hot Summer. How do race riots in 20 or 30 major cities grab you?

Ishkur: ChuDogg: So unfortunately, the 911 call supports Zimmerman's story as well.

Did Zimmerman's story include the part where he was chasing Martin? ...if not, then no: The evidence doesn't support his story.

I'll just re-state the part you neglected to quote:

And as was pointed out to you many times already, the 911 call only shows that at a maximum George Zimmerman moved to the back of the housing complex to observe the direction Martin was running to relay to the police. The 911 operator literally asked him "which way is running to?" as he begins his movement, and there is no indication that Zimmerman continued to move after being suggested not to and lost sight of Martin. He continued on the phone for over 2 minutes and the scene of the altercation was at Zimmerman's location, not further down, which would be the case if he was chasing him.

I'll take your omission as a tacit admission that you can't support your assertion of Zimmerman's guilt.

JWideman: First, he wasn't even supposed to get out of his car. That's the training from both the CCW class he had to take to get licensed in Florida. I'm still not sure if he was officially neighborhood watch or not, but if he was he would have also had training from that, which says the same thing.
"Okay." doesn't mean shiat. Zimmerman claims he was heading back to his car when Martin jumped him from behind, but that doesn't match up with Martin's call. Unless Zimmerman's definition of "jumped from behind" includes someone talking to you, in which case he's a nut anyway. Regardless, Zimmerman should NOT have been patrolling, he should NOT have left his car to pursue the suspect, and he knew it. Any ONE of these things is enough to make him culpable and at the very least he should lose that CCW, as he's demonstrated that he does NOT in fact carry responsibly.

Why wasn't he(legally speaking)?
He wasn't. So what. Stil nothing illegal, and the operator didn't seem to mind.
The claim that they had a face to face conversation is hearsay, not fact.
George was not patrolling.
"okay" does mean something. It means he was cooperating. If he wanted to shoot a kid, why did he even call for the police first?
Your opinion is not in line with actual evidence.

s2s2s2: But listen to it, then willfully misrepresent it is ok, I see.

Dow Jones tried to pretend that there is no evidence that Martin ran. Zimmerman specifically says on the 911 call that he ran.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. It's in the 911 call, so fark off.

You assholes keep pretending that Zimmernan didn't chase Martin, even though the 911 call and the location of the shooting make it damn well clear that he did.

Chudogg keeps posting his map, which doesn't show the clubhouse. On the 911 call, when Zimmerman first tells the 911 operator the location, he's says the clubhouse. That's evidence that Chudogg isn't being honest with his picture on how far the chase went.

ChuDogg: Why didn't it fully cycle? Because someone was holding onto the slide. If the gun slide doesn't slide all the way back, then the next bullet cannot be pushed into place by the magazine spring.

How dare that kid try to grab the gun the guy is shooting him with!

Silly Jesus: Ishkur: ChuDogg: I'll just re-state the part you neglected to quote:

Right, so Zimmerman was chasing Martin, hence why the dispatcher had to tell him not to. What part of what I said wasn't true?

Are you disputing that Zimmerman didn't ever chase Martin, at all?

"Chasing" implies that he was trying to catch him. All signs point to Zimmerman merely trying to keep him in sight until the police arrived.

At this point I just have to conclude that Ishkur is either a troll or one of the dumbest people on Fark.

I mean how does one just keep repeating the same blind assertion over and over again after being pointed out the evidence shows the exact opposite?

He could at least attempt to dissect the arguments being put forth to him and attempt to refute them. He has gone on for hours now like a broken record repeating himself and has been shown at least a dozen or so times that what he is saying is not present in the call. He has not once attempted to support himself.

Silly Jesus: "Chasing" implies that he was trying to catch him. All signs point to Zimmerman merely trying to keep him in sight until the police arrived.

Well, he succeeded there. Martin was laying right there, waiting for them to show up.

Ishkur: He got out of his car and ran after him. That's chasing. Everything else is completely speculative and unsubstantiated. Maybe he wanted to detain him until Police arrived. "These assholes always get away" sounds like the words of someone who really wanted to bag this one.

In addition, Zimmerman didn't want to agree on a place to meet the cops. He said he wanted them to call him when they got there. That sure sounds to me like he didn't know where he was going to be because he was still planning to follow Martin.

ChuDogg: rewind2846: Look, they have the shooter, they have the gun, the have the corpse, they have witnesses.

Here's the problem, they have all that, and it all backs Zimmerman's story of self defense.

Bullsh*t. Trials determine guilt or innocence, not the story of some Batman wannabe who's trying to save his own ass. Let's have one.

JuggleGeek: Chudogg keeps posting his map, which doesn't show the clubhouse. On the 911 call, when Zimmerman first tells the 911 operator the location, he's says the clubhouse. That's evidence that Chudogg isn't being honest with his picture on how far the chase went.

Here is the full map that shows the different scenes.

Link (new window)

I theorized the most likely position of Martin was he was hiding, but someone suggested it's equally likely he ran around the back and circled Zimmerman from behind. The truth is we just don't know. But we do know the position of Zimmerman with a degree of certainty. It was also reported his truck was parked at the bend. So we know his starting position and ending position of his "movement", which is the most accurate term to use at this point, and it is entirely documented during the 911 call at least about 2 minutes before the altercation began. We can hear the sound his vehicle makes and we can hear when the door closes and he exits the vehicle, we can also hear his breathing normalize when he reaches the T intersection in the walkway.

Also, Zimmerman did express a great deal of confusion while his address was. His starting position in the vehicle was somewhere near the clubhouse. It's only a few hundred feet away to the bend in the road, which would have been about 2 or 3 seconds of driving which we hear on the call.

Zimmerman also mentions that Martin is running towards "the back entrance", but this is a assumption he is making, he can't see the entrance. So we can determine his motivation for exiting the vehicle is to observe Martin's flight, which he assumed, after the 911 operator asked twice which direction Martin was heading.

ChuDogg: Why didn't it fully cycle? Because someone was holding onto the slide. If the gun slide doesn't slide all the way back, then the next bullet cannot be pushed into place by the magazine spring.

How dare that kid try to grab the gun the guy is shooting him with!


It's one of many pieces that refute the media narrative, and one of many pieces that support Zimmerman's story that was given immediately after the events, with no time to prepare a statement or seek legal counsel. Typically even an honest story is going to have some holes in it. Zimmerman's story has been reaffirmed by every piece of evidence presented to us.

The media is still saying it was Zimmerman on top beating up Martin who was screaming for his life. There isn't a single shred of evidence to suggest that besides one of the 911 callers who testified what she didn't see but thinks is what likely happened because she "feels it to be correct".

JuggleGeek: Martin ran

Yeah, right before George(who didn't run) said he got away, which was right after he said "ok" which was right after he was told "we don't need you to do that".

JuggleGeek: the 911 call and the location of the shooting make it damn well clear that he did not chase him, since it was damned near the same spot.

Ishkur: Either way, it doesn't warrant deadly force.

Now, see. I pretty much agree with you there. Trayvon didn't need to be shot, and that is a tragedy. It is not evidence that George broke the law, chased anyone, initiated physical contact...so on, and on.

Ishkur: Because when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail

I have several hammers, and a mallet. I mostly use my screwdrivers, tho.

BeesNuts: One thing appears to matter in this case, and that is whether or not Zimmerman was being attacked by Martin at the time of the shooting. Everything else, every fact about Trayvon's past, about laws he may or may not have broken, things he may or may not have said or written months before that, whether he had tattoos, was in a gang, loved or hated school, *EVERYTHING* else has absolutely nothing to do with the case, and has no legal bearing on the outcome of that case.

SO WHY IN THE EVER LIVING FARK IS THIS CRAP ALL THAT THE PRESS IS TALKING ABOUT?

Fark sakes.

It will be a big part of the case, his character over time will tell if he is good mannered, quiet, a smart ass or violent. In reality it is used in ALL cases!

I'm gonna post some pictures. For anyone still here I recommend viewing this narrative and the 911 call here first.


This here is by the Clubhouse looking towards the housing complex the altercation took place behind. Martin would likely have been walking around the houses to the left, initially walked towards Zimmerman, then turns around and runs behind the complex straight ahead. That first house is where the altercation took place behind.



This next to house where the altercation took place, just before rounding the corner. Zimmermans car was found parked in front of the walkway, and where he exited the vehicle while the 911 operator was asking him in which direction Martin ran to.



This is the T-Intersection on the sidewalk. This around the point that Operator suggests "we don't need you to do that", he then dismissively states "he ran" as can no longer see Martin. He assumed he would catch him on the end of the housing complexes sprinting towards the exit, but as soon as he rounds the corner, he realizes he can't see him. Inititally, he assumes that Martin simply fled the neighborhood already.



This is what Zimmerman would have saw as he looked down the path. He had a little over a minute and a half on the phone with the 911 operator at this point with Martin nowhere to be seen. He is either hiding, or running around the otherside of the complex. Zimmerman, probably slightly pacing as he talked with the 911 operator, probably went as far as the tree in the foreground, literally only about 10 feet in front of the T Intersection.

Also, Martins house was about 70 yards down towards the end, about 10 seconds at a heavy sprint, and he could have wove in between housing complexes if he was fearing his life.



Here's another angle of where the altercation took place, and also gauge about how far Zimmerman followed Martin.

I think it's pretty clear that Zimmerman's intent in walking towards the back yard was to observe Martin's flight. There is no indication that he attempted to pursue Martin and somehow chased him back to his starting point. The best scenario, is at a maximum, he followed to answer the 911 operator's questions of where he saw the suspect running to, and naively assumed by the time he got to the back yard the suspect would have continued running and was a clear distance away from him. It is only towards the very end of his 911 call that you can begin to hear Zimmerman suspect Martin could be close by to him (see original map scene).

There is no illegal or malicious intent shown on behalf of Zimmerman, and much of the character references of Zimmerman were either flat out wrong, or grossly exaggerated. There is literally nothing to support the assertion that Zimmerman was looking for a fight. All we can tell is that Zimmerman wanted to help the 911 operator and the police, and his assumptions that Martin kept running (which are very clear on the 911 call) put him into a dangerous situation. We can argue the semantics of "follow" vs "chase" or "persue" or whatever term you want, all of that is irrelevent. The only relevant piece is that Zimmerman was acting lawfully and in good faith to help the police and his neighbors, and there is nothing to suggest any illegal acts or vigilantism.


I would say that Martin was likely hiding close by as that would fit the statements of Martin's girlfriend. The only question left is how they got engaged in the altercation. The girlfriend on the phone's statements assumes that Zimmerman started it (for ambiguous reasons), while Zimmerman's story of walking back to the truck is supported by the scene. Both, could actually be correct, and the exact words may have been assumed or added in by the girlfriend, even unintentionally, as her statements came several weeks later and don't really say who started the altercation one way or the other.

Ishkur: This whole issue is all Zimmerman, trying to get a kid arrested for thoughtcrime questioned by police, because of recent crime.

FTFY

Ishkur: He got out of his car and ran after him. That's chasing.

Martin used the term "following."

As in, "What are you following me for?"

This was related to us by his girlfriend, who was on the phone with him at the time.

If you media-puppets had better evidence, we'd have seen it by now. You lose. You're officially boring.