Mikey1969: frepnog: With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already.

Let's see...

My wife's mother got pregnant with her while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her older son while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.
My wife got pregnant with an earlier baby while on another form of B.C. She lost that one, BTW, just to keep number of kids in perspective.
My wife got pregnant with our daughter while on Nuva Ring.

You're right, there are so many forms of BC available. 4 have failed my wife, but you're right, it's her fault for her "lack of judgement".

does your family have a history of not understanding how birth control pills work? If not, I suggest the lottery.

Mikey1969: frepnog: With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already.

Let's see...

My wife's mother got pregnant with her while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her older son while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.
My wife got pregnant with an earlier baby while on another form of B.C. She lost that one, BTW, just to keep number of kids in perspective.
My wife got pregnant with our daughter while on Nuva Ring.

You're right, there are so many forms of BC available. 4 have failed my wife, but you're right, it's her fault for her "lack of judgement".

Why was she on the pill after he got snipped?

PlatinumDragon: frepnog: Why should her choice be honored now when she has already shown to be irresponsible?

Why should someone you've already judged to be irresponsible be forced to bring a pregnancy to term? Do you think she's going to become a responsible person at the moment of birth? Should society have to absorb the result of another unwanted child who has to be clothed, fed, and cared for by an irresponsible person, or even raising the child in the first place should she choose to give the infant up for adoption?

Wouldn't abortion be a more responsible decision than giving birth to a child she doesn't have the ability, resources, or intention to raise?

there are avenues in place for a woman that doesn't want to have a baby to act responsibly and not end her unborn child's life. ending the child's life is not taking responsibility for one's actions, it is the easy way out of responsibility. Should people just kill themselves the moment that a problem occurs because it is easier that way?

Jackson Herring: sweetmelissa31: /Also: what do you think about buying a tube of cookie dough and eating it? Just for future reference

I think this is a thing we should do

did you guys just make a date to eat raw cookie dough out of a tube? The power of Fark!

Mikey1969: My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.

So on the pill AND had a vasectomy? Did her ex have super sperm? Or did they ignore the doctor's advice and have unprotected sex within 2-3 weeks after the surgery because that's breathtakingly stupid.

CPennypacker: Its not inconsistent.

Sure it is.

CPennypacker: Being pro-choice just means that you support the mother being in control of her medical decisions and not subjugating her to the potential life growing in her womb that is wholly dependant on her for survival.

Correct. The moment that life growing in her womb is no longer wholly dependent on her for survival, I am no longer pro-choice.

A 15 week old fetus is not a new life form, it is a potential for a new separate life form. Therefore abortion is not murder, it's a preventative medical procedure. If you stab a woman in the womb and it kills her 15 week old fetus, we just agreed the 15 week old fetus is not a separate life form, it's not a person yet. The mother survives, no separate life form was killed, yet I would still call it murder, which necessitates one actually was.

There's an enormous inconsistency here.

frepnog: there are avenues in place for a woman that doesn't want to have a baby to act responsibly and not end her unborn child's life. ending the child's life is not taking responsibility for one's actions, it is the easy way out of responsibility. Should people just kill themselves the moment that a problem occurs because it is easier that way?

Some people should.

jst3p: Mikey1969: frepnog: With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already.

Let's see...

My wife's mother got pregnant with her while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her older son while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.
My wife got pregnant with an earlier baby while on another form of B.C. She lost that one, BTW, just to keep number of kids in perspective.
My wife got pregnant with our daughter while on Nuva Ring.

You're right, there are so many forms of BC available. 4 have failed my wife, but you're right, it's her fault for her "lack of judgement".

Why was she on the pill after he got snipped?

There is a rare possibility of "recanalization of the vas deferens", where things fix themselves.

But more than likely it may have fallen under the category of other prescribed uses for the pill.

I'm not going to speculate further.

skullkrusher: Mikey1969: frepnog: With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already.

Let's see...

My wife's mother got pregnant with her while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her older son while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.
My wife got pregnant with an earlier baby while on another form of B.C. She lost that one, BTW, just to keep number of kids in perspective.
My wife got pregnant with our daughter while on Nuva Ring.

You're right, there are so many forms of BC available. 4 have failed my wife, but you're right, it's her fault for her "lack of judgement".

does your family have a history of not understanding how birth control pills work? If not, I suggest the lottery.

There are some women who just aren't that affected by the hormone releases so there's a benefit of the doubt. Unless she was the type who kept forgetting to take her pill or didn't get to the gynecologist in time to replace the ring. Maybe she was on 1 hormone birth control which is the type that you absolutely, cannot whatsoever forget to take it at the same time everyday.

Mikey1969: frepnog: With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already.

Let's see...

My wife's mother got pregnant with her while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her older son while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.
My wife got pregnant with an earlier baby while on another form of B.C. She lost that one, BTW, just to keep number of kids in perspective.
My wife got pregnant with our daughter while on Nuva Ring.

You're right, there are so many forms of BC available. 4 have failed my wife, but you're right, it's her fault for her "lack of judgement".


sounds to me like someone wasn't taking the medication as prescribed.

/find it hard to believe that hormone birth control failed 1 woman 4 times. i'd need to see proof of that, because it is outside the realm of reality.

CPennypacker: You can't just legislate in black and white.

I don't think you can use any other color ink.

/also, yes actually you do have to legislate in black and white or you start getting stupid unintended consequences.

Jackson Herring: skullkrusher: Jackson Herring: sweetmelissa31: /Also: what do you think about buying a tube of cookie dough and eating it? Just for future reference

I think this is a thing we should do

did you guys just make a date to eat raw cookie dough out of a tube? The power of Fark!

It's not news, it's dinner plans dot com

I am calling Michelle Obama on you

jst3p: Why was she on the pill after he got snipped?

Mostly because she was hoping that it would regulate her periods better. Some women get that, some don't. IN reality, I have never seen a woman in my life looking forward to menopause the way she does.

jst3p: frepnog: there are avenues in place for a woman that doesn't want to have a baby to act responsibly and not end her unborn child's life. ending the child's life is not taking responsibility for one's actions, it is the easy way out of responsibility. Should people just kill themselves the moment that a problem occurs because it is easier that way?

Some people should.

i knew there was some reason i liked you.

jst3p: Mikey1969: frepnog: With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already.

Let's see...

My wife's mother got pregnant with her while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her older son while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.
My wife got pregnant with an earlier baby while on another form of B.C. She lost that one, BTW, just to keep number of kids in perspective.
My wife got pregnant with our daughter while on Nuva Ring.

You're right, there are so many forms of BC available. 4 have failed my wife, but you're right, it's her fault for her "lack of judgement".

Why was she on the pill after he got snipped?

Sometimes women use birth control for reasons other than birth control. That's why Limbaugh called that girl from Georgetown a slut.

Biological Ali: skullkrusher: so what is it? An unfortunate but not prosecutable byproduct of the mother's murder? Does it become a double homicide based on the threshold set by state abortion law?

Abortion laws typically just decide the threshold beyond which abortion is not permitted; they don't (usually) declare the fetus to be a person too, so there's no obvious "murder" link there either. Simplest and most sensible solution would be to introduce a sentence enhancement procedure similar to ones for hate crimes; the crime itself would still be a murder (or an assault or whatever), but it would be one punished more harshly than ordinary versions of the crime due to its particularly heinous nature.

just because you're afraid it might be used as anti-abortion fodder?

For The Prettiest One: Not to be a dick, but in the medical profession, all gestational markers for timing (like getting a 20 week ultrasound anatomy screen or being "due" at 40 weeks) are all taken from the mother's last menstrual period. The bill is just following medical convention.

Arizona still sucks, though.

That's just a medical convenience with no legal implications.

Consider this: a small number of women have naturally infrequent periods, some as few as four a year. But cycle length is one of those things you are asked to report to your OB. As a result, those women's doctor's know that the last day of last period is irrelevant for them, and just assign an equivalent based on the first ultrasound.

But the law doesn't have that flexibility, so these women, legally, wouldn't even be able to abort a baby they had conceived minutes earlier. You have to be more careful with legal definitions.

Slesfo: keylock71: What the f*ck is wrong with these people?

Don't like abortion? Then mind your own f*cking business and don't have one.

Don't like murder? Then mind your own f*cking business and don't do any. People at like it's about womens' "rights" to their own bodies when the real issue is that you have another human being whose life you are ending. that is an incontrovertible fact. intentionally ending another human being's life is murder. again, another incontrovertible fact.

problem is, Liberals prefer feelings over facts. this bill doesn't declare that women are necessarily pregnant 2 weeks before conception, but, in doing the math to protect human life, uses the earliest estimate of when the child could have been conceived.

I'll bite. Do you believe that a poor person can help them selves to your groceries that you bought if the cannot afford their own. Because you are implying that a fetus has a right to leech of the mother and that a woman should not be able to choose if she wants to support the fetus with her own body

killershark: jst3p: Mikey1969: frepnog: With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already.

Let's see...

My wife's mother got pregnant with her while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her older son while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.
My wife got pregnant with an earlier baby while on another form of B.C. She lost that one, BTW, just to keep number of kids in perspective.
My wife got pregnant with our daughter while on Nuva Ring.

You're right, there are so many forms of BC available. 4 have failed my wife, but you're right, it's her fault for her "lack of judgement".

Why was she on the pill after he got snipped?

Sometimes women use birth control for reasons other than birth control. That's why Limbaugh called that girl from Georgetown a slut.

I understand that. I was asking for further clarification. Thanks for adding nothing.

frepnog: altho 50 million abortions surely point to women that can't control themselves

Also points to 50 million men that cannot control themselves, amirite?

frepnog: Arguing when life "begins" is simply bullcrap to cloud the issue.

Or it's by far the most important and critical issue to determine when discussing the legality of abortion. Definitely one of the two.

Dusk-You-n-Me: frepnog: Arguing when life "begins" is simply bullcrap to cloud the issue.

frepnog: and not end her unborn child's life

frepnog: ending the child's life

not sure what your point here is. lots of abortion arguments are based on "when life begins". few of them address that if a woman is left pregnant that in 9 months she will in most cases give birth to a living child.

sno man: Think about the implications of this for a sec, EVERY menstruating woman is pregnant basically half the time...

Half the time? More like ALL the time. She is considered pregnant starting from the first day of her last period. When the next period comes along, that pregnancy ends and a new one starts.

Mikey1969: Mostly because she was hoping that it would regulate her periods better. Some women get that, some don't. IN reality, I have never seen a woman in my life looking forward to menopause the way she does.

The way the pill works is thus: It tricks the body into thinking it's pregnant. Should an egg get fertilized in the process, no big, because everything will get flushed out anyway in the 4th week. If your wife took it to regulate her period then it obviously wasn't working for her or she kept skipping pills thinking it wasn't a big deal. And trust me, I've encountered women who had 3 or 4 pills left over in their pack from their "forgetful days" because they thought it was an acceptable stop loss.

lennavan: frepnog: Arguing when life "begins" is simply bullcrap to cloud the issue.

Or it's by far the most important and critical issue to determine when discussing the legality of abortion. Definitely one of the two.

Pretty much this.

lennavan: So when, factually, does life begin?

Several billion years ago.

If you mean, when does an individual life begin, that's a similarly stupid question, as the individual sperm/egg and their precursor cells are independently alive since their creation by meiosis, and before that were alive in the form of the combined pre-fission cells, and so on back to the aforementioned several billion years back.

The question is when does the life in question constitute an actual human, and that's around a couple weeks before birth or about age 16 to 25 depending on whether you're going on medical criteria (ability to exist as an independent organism rather than an outgrowth of a parent) or mental criteria. We've added some padding to the numbers for safety and set the medical date at roughly the beginning of the third trimester and the other at age 16-18 depending on the specific legality in question.

frepnog: there are avenues in place for a woman that doesn't want to have a baby to act responsibly and not end her unborn child's life.

You mean adoption, of course - hope the child is part of a high-demand group, or society (that means you and your tax dollars) will be taking care of that infant until someone decides the child is worthy of adopting. Adding another uncared-for mouth to feed... real responsible, instead of halting gestation prior to viability and birth.

ending the child's life is not taking responsibility for one's actions, it is the easy way out of responsibility.

So, again, you think someone's "irresponsibility" should result in an unwanted burden on her, or society as a whole? The responsibility of raising that breathing, independent lifeform should just be handed off to others who may or may not have the time and resources themselves to do the task properly? That's responsible?

Also: embryo-to-fetus. Not a child. Going-to-be-a-child if allowed to reach term and born, but not a breathing, independent lifeform yet; far from it.

Should people just kill themselves the moment that a problem occurs because it is easier that way?

Depends; what's the problem? If it's severe, will cause unending suffering, and irreparable, suicide may be an option to consider. If my brain begins to degenerate, you bet your arse I'll consider checking out. Don't like it? Too bad - my body, my choice.

Warlordtrooper: I'll bite. Do you believe that a poor person can help them selves to your groceries that you bought if the cannot afford their own. Because you are implying that a fetus has a right to leech of the mother and that a woman should not be able to choose if she wants to support the fetus with her own body

I am pretty sure most people believe that after some point in gestation and that there must be a rather compelling reason to change that

frepnog: not sure what your point here is. lots of abortion arguments are based on "when life begins". few of them address that if a woman is left pregnant that in 9 months she will in most cases give birth to a living child.

About half of fertilized eggs make it to birth.

Now, I just raped the entire point you were making and so as a result, if you would like to stop that point from continuing on and making you look stupid, I suggest you abort.

Biological Ali: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: so what is it? An unfortunate but not prosecutable byproduct of the mother's murder? Does it become a double homicide based on the threshold set by state abortion law?

Abortion laws typically just decide the threshold beyond which abortion is not permitted; they don't (usually) declare the fetus to be a person too, so there's no obvious "murder" link there either. Simplest and most sensible solution would be to introduce a sentence enhancement procedure similar to ones for hate crimes; the crime itself would still be a murder (or an assault or whatever), but it would be one punished more harshly than ordinary versions of the crime due to its particularly heinous nature.

just because you're afraid it might be used as anti-abortion fodder?

Well, sure. That and the fact that it never made sense to begin with.

as long as we are charging it as a very serious add-on to the main murder charge, I'm cool with that too.... or just keep it as murder. Whatevs, it's more than just a single murder

lennavan: CPennypacker: You can't just legislate in black and white.

I don't think you can use any other color ink.

/also, yes actually you do have to legislate in black and white or you start getting stupid unintended consequences.

By "legislate in black and white" i meant "its a person or it isnt"

lennavan: frepnog: altho 50 million abortions surely point to women that can't control themselves

Also points to 50 million men that cannot control themselves, amirite?

frepnog: Arguing when life "begins" is simply bullcrap to cloud the issue.

Or it's by far the most important and critical issue to determine when discussing the legality of abortion. Definitely one of the two.

we have taken men out of the equation by not making it mandatory for a women to include him in the decision to GET an abortion. Why include him NOW?

/in most cases, WOMEN are in charge of when they have sex. Oh wait, freedom of choice only applies when deciding to get an abortion, certainly not the freedom of choice to not get pregnant in the first place.

Jim_Callahan: that's a similarly stupid question, as the individual sperm/egg and their precursor cells are independently alive

Independently alive? Try no. By no definition of the word are the individual sperm or egg cells alive. Without a need for any biology - they can't replicate by themselves.

Jim_Callahan: The question is when does the life in question constitute an actual human

So the above question is good but the below one is stupid?

Jim_Callahan: when does an individual life begin, that's a similarly stupid question

One of us is stupid, that's for sure.

skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: so what is it? An unfortunate but not prosecutable byproduct of the mother's murder? Does it become a double homicide based on the threshold set by state abortion law?

Abortion laws typically just decide the threshold beyond which abortion is not permitted; they don't (usually) declare the fetus to be a person too, so there's no obvious "murder" link there either. Simplest and most sensible solution would be to introduce a sentence enhancement procedure similar to ones for hate crimes; the crime itself would still be a murder (or an assault or whatever), but it would be one punished more harshly than ordinary versions of the crime due to its particularly heinous nature.

just because you're afraid it might be used as anti-abortion fodder?

Well, sure. That and the fact that it never made sense to begin with.

as long as we are charging it as a very serious add-on to the main murder charge, I'm cool with that too.... or just keep it as murder. Whatevs, it's more than just a single murder

We could just call it something else with the same punishment.

I vote "Murda"

CPennypacker: lennavan: CPennypacker: You can't just legislate in black and white.

I don't think you can use any other color ink.

/also, yes actually you do have to legislate in black and white or you start getting stupid unintended consequences.

By "legislate in black and white" i meant "its a person or it isnt"

I know. You have to. You cannot leave gray area.

KatjaMouse: Mikey1969: My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.

So on the pill AND had a vasectomy? Did her ex have super sperm? Or did they ignore the doctor's advice and have unprotected sex within 2-3 weeks after the surgery because that's breathtakingly stupid.

Considering how many times BC has failed, I think she has a super uterus...

As for the sex within 2-3 weeks afterwards, I would gues not, since she said he spent 2-3 months out of work, being lazy and whining all the time.

frepnog: lennavan: frepnog: altho 50 million abortions surely point to women that can't control themselves

Also points to 50 million men that cannot control themselves, amirite?

frepnog: Arguing when life "begins" is simply bullcrap to cloud the issue.

Or it's by far the most important and critical issue to determine when discussing the legality of abortion. Definitely one of the two.

we have taken men out of the equation by not making it mandatory for a women to include him in the decision to GET an abortion. Why include him NOW?

/in most cases, WOMEN are in charge of when they have sex. Oh wait, freedom of choice only applies when deciding to get an abortion, certainly not the freedom of choice to not get pregnant in the first place.

Yes, we certainly have taken men out of all of these equations.

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: so what is it? An unfortunate but not prosecutable byproduct of the mother's murder? Does it become a double homicide based on the threshold set by state abortion law?

Abortion laws typically just decide the threshold beyond which abortion is not permitted; they don't (usually) declare the fetus to be a person too, so there's no obvious "murder" link there either. Simplest and most sensible solution would be to introduce a sentence enhancement procedure similar to ones for hate crimes; the crime itself would still be a murder (or an assault or whatever), but it would be one punished more harshly than ordinary versions of the crime due to its particularly heinous nature.

just because you're afraid it might be used as anti-abortion fodder?

Well, sure. That and the fact that it never made sense to begin with.

as long as we are charging it as a very serious add-on to the main murder charge, I'm cool with that too.... or just keep it as murder. Whatevs, it's more than just a single murder

We could just call it something else with the same punishment.

I vote "Murda"

hehe

Mikey1969: KatjaMouse: Mikey1969: My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.

So on the pill AND had a vasectomy? Did her ex have super sperm? Or did they ignore the doctor's advice and have unprotected sex within 2-3 weeks after the surgery because that's breathtakingly stupid.

Considering how many times BC has failed, I think she has a super uterus...

As for the sex within 2-3 weeks afterwards, I would gues not, since she said he spent 2-3 months out of work, being lazy and whining all the time.

If they had sex long after a vasectomy and still got pregnant, then it just sounds like your wife is woefully unlucky.

frepnog: sounds to me like someone wasn't taking the medication as prescribed.

/find it hard to believe that hormone birth control failed 1 woman 4 times. i'd need to see proof of that, because it is outside the realm of reality.


Proof? I can find pictures of the kids if you want. Other wise, if you really insist on calling both mysellf and my wife liars, I'd like to invite you to go fark yourself right off the edge of a high cliff.

And yes, being the daughter of a nurse, I'm pretty sure my wife was taking the medicine "as prescribed", but since you don't want anything to interrupt your rosy glow of how things "work", I don't expect you to come back with a rebuttal worth my time.

lennavan: frepnog: not sure what your point here is. lots of abortion arguments are based on "when life begins". few of them address that if a woman is left pregnant that in 9 months she will in most cases give birth to a living child.

About half of fertilized eggs make it to birth.

Now, I just raped the entire point you were making and so as a result, if you would like to stop that point from continuing on and making you look stupid, I suggest you abort.

you will never make me look stupid by claiming it is ok to kill children, a fetus, embryos or any other word for human being.

gittlebass: So Arizona should have the best prenatal care in the world now, it will be a safe haven for all pregnant women. Also, if I were a woman I'd take maternity leave for a week every month

You can have prenatal care if you are wealthy or have good insurance. If not, well just wait to see what happens next.
Can we move Sedona and just leave the rest of AZ t the Mexicans please?

demaL-demaL-yeH: 1. A fetus is a FETUS: It is not a child or a baby until it is born.

sure. People euphemistically refer to it as a "baby" quite often but technically speaking, it is a fetus. Not a child.

demaL-demaL-yeH: 2. The Torah is clear about the status of fetuses, and that fetuses are not children.

that's great. I'm not an Orthodox Jew, however, so my feelings on what the Torah says ranges somewhere between "Who gives a fark?" and "So?"

demaL-demaL-yeH: 3. A fetus is a parasite, hypocrite: You've never seemed to have any problem with references to the poor as "parasites."

which you've garnered from the fact that I have never referred to poor people as "parasites"? You special.

KatjaMouse: If they had sex long after a vasectomy and still got pregnant, then it just sounds like your wife is woefully unlucky.

She's a Fertile Myrtle, all right. IUD is so far the only reliable form of BC she's discovered. Her mother was the same way, and forewarned her of how easy the women in her family 'catch' when she was young. Luckily it wasn't an "abstinence only" type of talk, because women in that family are also extremely horny...