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(Russia Today)   Arizona: "You can't have an abortion" Women: "Wat we aren't even pregnant" Arizona: "LOL THINK AGAIN"   (rt.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, Marion Barry, RH Reality Check, Guttmacher Institute, Amanda Marcotte, medical emergency  
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11479 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Apr 2012 at 9:29 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-09 12:15:02 PM  

raanne: pxsteel: raanne: pxsteel: Wow, you farkers are idiots. You do realize that this is how it is figured. If you are pregnant, your last cycle is how they figure the age of the fetus and the due date for when the child will be born. "When was your last cycle" is the first question the doctor/nurse asks when you are pregnant.

But the problem with putting it into law is that 1) many people do not have regular cycles, 2) many people are on birth control which limits their periods to 4 times a year or less, & 3) many people have had previous children which may be suppressing their ovulation, and they haven't had a period yet.

So legally defining something that is at best a medical guess is only going to cause problems.

Special circumstances is called life, it may suck, deal with it. 3 months is a long time when you are pregnant. I know there is the very rare exception but 98% of women know they are pregnant within 30 days. Most women know before they take the test, that's why they are taking the test. My wife knew in less than two weeks both times, her body was making changes and it was very noticeable to her.

I'm assuming your wife was trying to get pregnant. The symptoms of early pregnancy are easily dismissed as just being tired (the only symptom I ever had). If I wasn't trying to get pregnant, there is no way that I would have ever thought that I was. And as I stated earlier in the thread, by the LMP method, If I got pregnant today, I am legally 14 months pregnant. Those aren't really "special circumstances" - they are pretty damn normal circumstances.

My point is that 3 months isn't 3 months. those 3 months include 2 weeks before you are even pregnant, and 3 weeks before a pregnancy test can confirm you are pregnant or not. So at the earliest possible knowledge, you have 2 months, not 3. People who are not trying to get pregnant are probably not paying attention to ever single signal their body gives them. Also, around 10% of women have irregular cycles, meaning i ...


That's life, so you may have a shorter period of time than others to make a choice. Once a woman finds out she is pregnant, wanted, unwanted or unsure. 75% of her thoughts form around being pregnant, days seem like weeks, weeks seem like months. You should have no problem coming to a decision by the end of the first trimester. An exception should be made for medical emergencies (life threatening).
 
2012-04-09 12:15:21 PM  

lennavan: skullkrusher: I think 24 weeks is the accepted standard viability threshold.

I don't actually know there's an accepted standard viability threshold. The statistics are accepted but seems to me viability begins after week 20.


No time to look it up just now, but I'm pretty sure the earliest that lived (after several expensive months in the NNICU, btw) was at 23 weeks and 4 or 5 days.... around here, the typical threshold is about 26.
 
2012-04-09 12:15:22 PM  

skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: when the family plans on having the baby, there is more than just a single murder being committed. It's an inconsistency that I am perfectly happy maintaining.

Okay. And what if the couple planned on having three kids, but the woman gets killed before her first pregnancy? Should the murderer be guilty of a quadruple-homicide?

this sounded like a reasonable question to you when you posed it?


Well, you're the one claiming that charging someone with two murders for an action that only kills one person, based on the person's future plans, was something you were "perfectly happy" with.
 
2012-04-09 12:16:24 PM  
Okay, but you're no longer able to visit california and steal our valuable parking space.

/Keep sending your daughters though
 
2012-04-09 12:16:29 PM  

frepnog: jst3p: frepnog: Abortion is in no way good for mankind, it cheapens life

We are pretty close to 7 Billion on this planet and how many have come and gone before that? How can you argue that "life" is special?

I don't really know how to respond. I suppose that is a question best answered by those that are being systematically and legally wiped out.


They're not people. You know that, right?
 
2012-04-09 12:16:47 PM  
What is it about hot arid climates and religious fanaticism?
 
2012-04-09 12:17:20 PM  

frepnog: jst3p: frepnog: Abortion is in no way good for mankind, it cheapens life

We are pretty close to 7 Billion on this planet and how many have come and gone before that? How can you argue that "life" is special?

I don't really know how to respond. I suppose that is a question best answered by those that are being systematically and legally wiped out.



So you can't answer the question but refer me to a group of people who don't exist and can't answer.

Do you know how stupid that sounds?
 
2012-04-09 12:17:48 PM  

frepnog: jst3p: frepnog: Abortion is in no way good for mankind, it cheapens life

We are pretty close to 7 Billion on this planet and how many have come and gone before that? How can you argue that "life" is special?

I don't really know how to respond. I suppose that is a question best answered by those that are being systematically and legally wiped out.


Don't like abortion, don't have one AND advocate for comprehensive sex education as well as freely available birth control, both condoms and the pill, so the incidence of accidental pregnancy is lowered.

You're still going to have to deal with issues like the Santorum's did, were the child is going to die and take the mother with it.
 
2012-04-09 12:18:07 PM  

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: Who do you think supports those kinds of laws? Are you under the impression that they're there at the behest of the women's rights movement? That it's somehow analogous to a 'bible' for women's rights advocates?

decent people who recognize that the death of mother and unborn child is more traumatic to the survivors than the death of a wife or girlfriend alone?

Still not sure how you'd make the leap from "people feel bad about this" to "this is murder", unless you're using feelings as a substitute for logic.

when the family plans on having the baby, there is more than just a single murder being committed. It's an inconsistency that I am perfectly happy maintaining.

agree


Yeah, I gotta agree with SK on this one. I got no beef with a woman choosing to abort a 15 week old fetus. But if someone stabs her in the stomach and the fetus dies, that's murder.

Wildly inconsistent. I'll sleep great tonight. Worst case scenario of the inconsistency - a dude who got all stabby gets a significantly more severe punishment than he would otherwise. Yep, I'll definitely sleep great.
 
2012-04-09 12:18:23 PM  
so, to summarize the GOP point of view:

1. Even if you have insurance, your private insurance should not have to cover birth control
2. Its fair to charge women more for their health insurance than men, since they might possibly get pregnant
3. Abortion is wrong and you should never get one
4. If you don't have insurance and do get pregnant, don't expect your kids to be covered by SCHIP.
5. Don't get pregnant if you can't afford it (Food Stamps and all manner of welfare are bad, etc.)

so extrapolating those points...

6. Just don't have sex unless you have money, even if you are married?

/but it's the democrats who are waging a war on traditional marriage...
 
2012-04-09 12:18:32 PM  

frepnog: I don't want all abortions banned, and I certainly think making pregnant women undergo an ultrasound before abortion is just ridiculous, but I am all for trying to make a woman that wants an abortion of convenience understand that the "fetus" inside her is more than a clump of cells. How we get there is obviously going to take some time.


And the Derp finally floats to the top...

Yeah, it's "convenient" to have an abortion, you sure nailed it on the head there, Skippy.
 
2012-04-09 12:18:40 PM  

lennavan: PlatinumDragon: You could have typed "I don't trust women to make serious decisions about their own reproductive processes because I think they're slutty slutty sluts whose ladybrains just can't be trusted like menz brainz" and saved yourself some keystrokes.

/trusts women

You could have typed "I hate babies and could care less if some women decide to kill unborn babies because I think they don't count as life and they are poopy pants slobbermouths who aren't worth anything" and saved yourself some keystrokes.

/loves babies.
//yeah, this is how stupid you sound


I had something better typed, but the MacBook Pro I'm on dropped its wifi link and flatly. refused. to. reconnect, thus losing the text I'd entered when I hit "submit" and saw Safari's 404 page.

As well, he'd already prattled on about "women who can't control themselves" and how women need to UNDERSTAND. THE. CONSEQUENCES, implying that they... y'know... don't.

Whereas I typed nothing about hating babies, or my opinions of new humans.
 
2012-04-09 12:18:47 PM  
skullkrusher: Many will flat out refuse to use the foreceps, they don't want to be sued. You want a vaginal birth with your breech baby, you gotta seek out an older OBGYN.

The older ones aren't doing them either. Malpractice insurance has been too high for them to risk it. Desperate parents of kids with disabilities will try to find a way to link it to the doctor who delivered their kids - 16 years ago.

/daughter of an OB/GYN who turns 70 this year
//father last did a breech delivery in 1987
 
2012-04-09 12:19:08 PM  

TV's Vinnie: What is it about hot arid climates and religious fanaticism?


It's not just stupid. It's a dry stupid.
 
2012-04-09 12:19:20 PM  

sno man: lennavan: skullkrusher: I think 24 weeks is the accepted standard viability threshold.

I don't actually know there's an accepted standard viability threshold. The statistics are accepted but seems to me viability begins after week 20.

No time to look it up just now, but I'm pretty sure the earliest that lived (after several expensive months in the NNICU, btw) was at 23 weeks and 4 or 5 days.... around here, the typical threshold is about 26.


I think you're right too, I was just going with what was posted on his wiki citation graph as "pre-term" to illustrate my point. =]
 
2012-04-09 12:20:08 PM  

PlatinumDragon: frepnog: Biological Ali: frepnog: it means that if you plan to abort, do it in the first three months. It gets harder and harder to argue that a fetus over 3 months gestation is anything other than a baby.

I'm not sure whether your own personal inability to put together rational arguments is necessarily the best basis for law.

there are plenty of rational arguments for and against abortion. the situation is murky at best.

My personal feelings are that abortion is in most cases wrong. This isn't based on religion (i am an atheist). It isn't based on wanting to control women (altho 50 million abortions surely point to women that can't control themselves). It is based on the fact that a "fetus", if carried to term will be born and will be a person. That means that a fetus is at WORST a "potential human". Arguing when life "begins" is simply bullcrap to cloud the issue.

I don't want all abortions banned, and I certainly think making pregnant women undergo an ultrasound before abortion is just ridiculous, but I am all for trying to make a woman that wants an abortion of convenience understand that the "fetus" inside her is more than a clump of cells. How we get there is obviously going to take some time.

You could have typed "I don't trust women to make serious decisions about their own reproductive processes because I think they're slutty slutty sluts whose ladybrains just can't be trusted like menz brainz" and saved yourself some keystrokes.

/trusts women


Did that sound at all rational when you typed it? With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already. Rape based abortions are rare. Why should her choice be honored now when she has already shown to be irresponsible?
 
2012-04-09 12:20:36 PM  
I get the feeling we're not far off from someone proposing a bill that requires, on the grounds that they are by definition pre-pregnant, that any non-menopausal woman requiring any prescription medication sign a legally binding vow of chastity.
 
2012-04-09 12:21:20 PM  

lennavan: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: Who do you think supports those kinds of laws? Are you under the impression that they're there at the behest of the women's rights movement? That it's somehow analogous to a 'bible' for women's rights advocates?

decent people who recognize that the death of mother and unborn child is more traumatic to the survivors than the death of a wife or girlfriend alone?

Still not sure how you'd make the leap from "people feel bad about this" to "this is murder", unless you're using feelings as a substitute for logic.

when the family plans on having the baby, there is more than just a single murder being committed. It's an inconsistency that I am perfectly happy maintaining.

agree

Yeah, I gotta agree with SK on this one. I got no beef with a woman choosing to abort a 15 week old fetus. But if someone stabs her in the stomach and the fetus dies, that's murder.

Wildly inconsistent. I'll sleep great tonight. Worst case scenario of the inconsistency - a dude who got all stabby gets a significantly more severe punishment than he would otherwise. Yep, I'll definitely sleep great.


Its not inconsistent. Being pro-choice just means that you support the mother being in control of her medical decisions and not subjugating her to the potential life growing in her womb that is wholly dependant on her for survival. You don't have to deny that that clump of cells is potential life to be pro choice. We're not inhuman monsters. If that mother has every intent of taking her pregnancy to term and keeping the baby, that's "her baby" and you should be charged as if it were her baby. You can't just legislate in black and white.
 
2012-04-09 12:21:58 PM  

frepnog: Why should her choice be honored now when she has already shown to be irresponsible?


Abortion is taking responsibility.
 
2012-04-09 12:22:04 PM  

Biological Ali: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: when the family plans on having the baby, there is more than just a single murder being committed. It's an inconsistency that I am perfectly happy maintaining.

Okay. And what if the couple planned on having three kids, but the woman gets killed before her first pregnancy? Should the murderer be guilty of a quadruple-homicide?

this sounded like a reasonable question to you when you posed it?

Well, you're the one claiming that charging someone with two murders for an action that only kills one person, based on the person's future plans, was something you were "perfectly happy" with.


yeah, if there's a bun in the oven and people are buying clothes for that bun and planning baby showers for that bun and someone kills that bun along with the mother, I do believe a greater crime has been committed than killing an non-pregnant person alone. I don't think that is the case for future expected buns that do not exist yet. You have plans on offing your pregnant girlfriend or something?
 
2012-04-09 12:22:07 PM  

jst3p: So you can't answer the question but refer me to a group of people who don't exist and can't answer.

Do you know how stupid that sounds?


Sounds a lot like religion.
 
2012-04-09 12:22:21 PM  
Waaaaay back in 2001, my father could have taken a job in Tempe when his company's corporate headquarters moved there from Atlanta. He opted to NOT take the position.

The more I read shiat like this, the ever more grateful I am that he chose to be unemployed for a few months and look for work in Georgia than move us to that den of iniquity.
 
2012-04-09 12:22:44 PM  

colon_pow: abortion is such a waste. they should go ahead and give birth, then take the baby to an active volcano and sacrifice it to the god of convenience.


You can only do that if the baby has a brain cloud. Btw, have you seen your doctor lately?
 
2012-04-09 12:23:48 PM  

elemenopy: skullkrusher: Many will flat out refuse to use the foreceps, they don't want to be sued. You want a vaginal birth with your breech baby, you gotta seek out an older OBGYN.

The older ones aren't doing them either. Malpractice insurance has been too high for them to risk it. Desperate parents of kids with disabilities will try to find a way to link it to the doctor who delivered their kids - 16 years ago.

/daughter of an OB/GYN who turns 70 this year
//father last did a breech delivery in 1987


this post was mistakenly attributed to me but yes there is definitely a reluctance to use forceps
 
2012-04-09 12:23:50 PM  

PlatinumDragon: lennavan: PlatinumDragon: You could have typed "I don't trust women to make serious decisions about their own reproductive processes because I think they're slutty slutty sluts whose ladybrains just can't be trusted like menz brainz" and saved yourself some keystrokes.

/trusts women

You could have typed "I hate babies and could care less if some women decide to kill unborn babies because I think they don't count as life and they are poopy pants slobbermouths who aren't worth anything" and saved yourself some keystrokes.

/loves babies.
//yeah, this is how stupid you sound

I had something better typed, but the MacBook Pro I'm on dropped its wifi link and flatly. refused. to. reconnect, thus losing the text I'd entered when I hit "submit" and saw Safari's 404 page.

As well, he'd already prattled on about "women who can't control themselves" and how women need to UNDERSTAND. THE. CONSEQUENCES, implying that they... y'know... don't.

Whereas I typed nothing about hating babies, or my opinions of new humans.


Many young women do not know the consequences.
 
2012-04-09 12:24:38 PM  

PlatinumDragon: KatjaMouse: PlatinumDragon: We're up to incarceration and trial for miscarriages, stillbirths, and neonatal death while still in the hospital, so...

Which is why women, who even want to keep their babies, are having huge legal problems. There are even cases where women who wish to birth vaginally despite bizarre ordinances that every birth needs to be done via c-section are getting arrested if they opt for a home delivery because of this over inflated idea of personhood applications to fetuses and unborn babies. Or mothers being arrested if there's a stillborn.

wat? where?

/cousin had her second kid last week
//c-section, her choice afaik
///go ahead, ask me about the c-section scar on my face


I was about to cite a case in New Jersey, where this has been a contested topic, but they case that I was thinking of that had a lot of publicity wasn't that great because the mother apparently had a few mental health issues aside from refusing a c-section. However one of the biggest controversial cases in the country was a few years ago when a Utah woman refused to schedule a c-section and 2 weeks after the recommended time she vaginally birthed a set of twins but one was still born and she was arrested, tried and convicted of criminal negligence of a child. This is seen as one of those cases where the autonomy of a fetus takes legal precedence over a mother. Modern Maryland abortion laws were changed in the 80s when the state ordered a cancer patient to undergo a cesarean section to save her fetus so that she may continue her treatments despite the fact that she and her doctor decided the best medical course was to terminate as she was in no condition to survive any kind of surgery let alone one as major as a c-section. Well, neither she nor the baby lived and the state pulled a "my bad" and changed their law to place mother before fetus.
 
2012-04-09 12:25:15 PM  

pxsteel: //get it done by the end of the first trimester


So, you're sorta pro choice?
 
2012-04-09 12:25:29 PM  

lennavan: Also, I've never heard of a c-section referred to as "traumatic." It's surgery for sure but not traumatic.


LOL, spoken exactly like someone who will never ever possibly have to get a Cesarean...
 
2012-04-09 12:25:48 PM  

Crunch61: jst3p: So you can't answer the question but refer me to a group of people who don't exist and can't answer.

Do you know how stupid that sounds?

Sounds a lot like religion.


I was more referring to tibetians and jews here and any other group like that.
 
2012-04-09 12:26:30 PM  

skullkrusher: yeah, if there's a bun in the oven and people are buying clothes for that bun and planning baby showers for that bun and someone kills that bun along with the mother, I do believe a greater crime has been committed than killing an non-pregnant person alone. I don't think that is the case for future expected buns that do not exist yet. You have plans on offing your pregnant girlfriend or something?


This is what I'm trying to get you to explain to me. How exactly are you getting from "something bad has been done" to "this is murder"? Or are you just making some general argument about how it should be considered a greater crime, without specifying exactly what that crime should be classified as?
 
2012-04-09 12:27:19 PM  

xanadian: Can we give Arizona back to Mexico now? Please?

/freakin' Zoners...


Doesn't Mexico have enough issues as is?

Though it would be funny watching Sheriff Joe have a meltdown as he decides if he's going to start trumping up charges against Anglos in lieu of treating Latinos this way.
 
2012-04-09 12:28:32 PM  
I think someone in the republican party read the Dune series and said "I want to be just like the Tleilaxu! I enjoy obsessing over religious and moral purity while trying to enforce my beliefs on others. And this idea of turning women into mindless breeding tank? Fabulous!"
 
2012-04-09 12:28:34 PM  

frepnog: Why should her choice be honored now when she has already shown to be irresponsible?


Why should someone you've already judged to be irresponsible be forced to bring a pregnancy to term? Do you think she's going to become a responsible person at the moment of birth? Should society have to absorb the result of another unwanted child who has to be clothed, fed, and cared for by an irresponsible person, or even raising the child in the first place should she choose to give the infant up for adoption?

Wouldn't abortion be a more responsible decision than giving birth to a child she doesn't have the ability, resources, or intention to raise?
 
2012-04-09 12:28:35 PM  

Biological Ali: skullkrusher: yeah, if there's a bun in the oven and people are buying clothes for that bun and planning baby showers for that bun and someone kills that bun along with the mother, I do believe a greater crime has been committed than killing an non-pregnant person alone. I don't think that is the case for future expected buns that do not exist yet. You have plans on offing your pregnant girlfriend or something?

This is what I'm trying to get you to explain to me. How exactly are you getting from "something bad has been done" to "this is murder"? Or are you just making some general argument about how it should be considered a greater crime, without specifying exactly what that crime should be classified as?


I am fine with considering it a double homicide. As I said, it is an inconsistency that I am cool with. Doesn't bother me at all. What if the pregnant woman is merely punched in the stomach causing her to miscarry. Should it be a simple battery? Why does calling it murder bother you so much?
 
2012-04-09 12:29:09 PM  

jst3p: So you can't answer the question but refer me to a group of people who don't exist and can't answer.

Do you know how stupid that sounds?


No, he/she really doesn't. We should all be impressed that this person can type so well with his/her head that far up the rectum. Impressive, really...
 
2012-04-09 12:29:28 PM  

pxsteel: That's life, so you may have a shorter period of time than others to make a choice. Once a woman finds out she is pregnant, wanted, unwanted or unsure. 75% of her thoughts form around being pregnant, days seem like weeks, weeks seem like months. You should have no problem coming to a decision by the end of the first trimester. An exception should be made for medical emergencies (life threatening).


I think my point was that you don't always find out until the end of the first trimester. You aren't showing yet, and if you are on birth control or have irregular periods, there is no indication.

And I'm calling bullshiat on the 75% of my thoughts were about being pregnant... I remember what the first few months of pregnancy were like - I've been through it twice. But even if a woman is thinking about it for much of the time, that doesn't mean that the minute she knows she is pregnant she is scheduling an abortion. I'm sure her thoughts are on the decision at hand, and ALL the factors that go into making a decision like that.
 
2012-04-09 12:30:16 PM  

sweetmelissa31: Guidette Frankentits: [catholiclane.com image 500x455]
This is not a cake.

It's better than a cake, much like a fetus is better than a person.


You laugh, but think about it. What's better, cookies or cookiedough?
 
2012-04-09 12:31:06 PM  

Jackson Herring: sweetmelissa31: Guidette Frankentits: [catholiclane.com image 500x455]
This is not a cake.

It's better than a cake, much like a fetus is better than a person.

You laugh, but think about it. What's better, cookies or cookiedough?


Cookie dough is murder.
 
2012-04-09 12:32:48 PM  

jst3p: Jackson Herring: sweetmelissa31: Guidette Frankentits: [catholiclane.com image 500x455]
This is not a cake.

It's better than a cake, much like a fetus is better than a person.

You laugh, but think about it. What's better, cookies or cookiedough?

Cookie dough is murder.


on my bowels

/tmi
 
2012-04-09 12:32:49 PM  

KatjaMouse: Modern Maryland abortion laws were changed in the 80s when the state ordered a cancer patient to undergo a cesarean section to save her fetus so that she may continue her treatments despite the fact that she and her doctor decided the best medical course was to terminate as she was in no condition to survive any kind of surgery let alone one as major as a c-section. Well, neither she nor the baby lived and the state pulled a "my bad" and changed their law to place mother before fetus.


I certainly hope the husband got to sue some legislators for wrongful death.
 
2012-04-09 12:33:44 PM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Just a couple of scenarios:

If my 3 year-old was, god forbid, horrifically injured and became a vegetable, it would be my call, as her mother, whether to continue life support, not the state's. If a much-wanted fetus of mine were to go through the same thing, it is stil my call, not the state's.

If I were 7 months pregnant - again, with a much-wanted baby - and found out that I had cancer, I would abort in order to get chemo. A heartbreaking decision, sure, but I wouldn't leave my 3-year-old and my 9-month old motherless.

What gives anyone the right to think they could make those decisions for me?


Arizona Senate passed a bill about this too. FTA:

It's called a "wrongful birth" bill and it's all about preventing women from having an abortion, even if it kills them. The Arizona Senate passed a bill this week that gives doctors a free pass to not inform pregnant women of prenatal problems because such information could lead to an abortion.

So if this becomes a law, let's say the doctor discovers that you do have cancer. That doctor would legally be restricted from telling you. You would have no choice about whether to have an abortion to have chemo because you wouldn't be told by your doctor until after the child was born and the cancer had spread. But hey, at least you'll be leaving three kids behind instead of two when you die of a disease that could've been treated!

That's where I have the biggest issues. Rick Santorum, for example, is running on this platform of FREDUM! which all these Republicans just love. And they all biatched that Obamacare would take away freedome and put the government between you and your doctor. But when it comes to women's reproduction, all the sudden these politicians know what's best for me? And they need to get between me and my doctor? BUT OMG! OBAMACARE!
 
2012-04-09 12:36:51 PM  

PlatinumDragon: I had something better typed, but the MacBook Pro I'm on dropped its wifi link and flatly. refused. to. reconnect


Bite your tongue, Macs never have errors, didn't you see all those nifty commercials with Justin Long?
 
2012-04-09 12:37:41 PM  

Jackson Herring: You laugh, but think about it. What's better, cookies or cookiedough?


That's what I'm saying.

/Also: what do you think about buying a tube of cookie dough and eating it? Just for future reference
 
2012-04-09 12:39:17 PM  

Karac: KatjaMouse: Modern Maryland abortion laws were changed in the 80s when the state ordered a cancer patient to undergo a cesarean section to save her fetus so that she may continue her treatments despite the fact that she and her doctor decided the best medical course was to terminate as she was in no condition to survive any kind of surgery let alone one as major as a c-section. Well, neither she nor the baby lived and the state pulled a "my bad" and changed their law to place mother before fetus.

I certainly hope the husband got to sue some legislators for wrongful death.


She was single but had the support of her family who testified that they were in favor of an abortion if it meant their daughter could live to fight another day.

God Is My Co-Pirate: If I were 7 months pregnant - again, with a much-wanted baby - and found out that I had cancer, I would abort in order to get chemo. A heartbreaking decision, sure, but I wouldn't leave my 3-year-old and my 9-month old motherless.


Not that great an example as you could have a c-section at 7 months and have a viable baby. More like if you were at the 5th or 6th month and time was ticking then you'd have abortion as a viable option.
 
2012-04-09 12:40:09 PM  

skullkrusher: I am fine with considering it a double homicide. As I said, it is an inconsistency that I am cool with. Doesn't bother me at all. What if the pregnant woman is merely punched in the stomach causing her to miscarry. Should it be a simple battery? Why does calling it murder bother you so much?


Because there's no logical basis for calling it that. Just as there's no logical basis for calling it burglary or racketeering or tax evasion. But then, of course, you might say that it's okay not to make sense in cases like this, since only it's only bad people who will be affected by this. Even that's not true, though; things like these can have unintended* consequences. Consequences like these laws being cited by people trying to advance their "abortion is murder" stance.

*I use the term loosely; I'm quite sure that plenty of the law's supporters intended precisely this consequence.
 
2012-04-09 12:40:15 PM  

jst3p: Jackson Herring: sweetmelissa31: Guidette Frankentits: [catholiclane.com image 500x455]
This is not a cake.

It's better than a cake, much like a fetus is better than a person.

You laugh, but think about it. What's better, cookies or cookiedough?

Cookie dough is murder.


Tasty tasty murder.
 
2012-04-09 12:40:44 PM  

frepnog: With many different types of contraception available, many of which are free, a woman that becomes pregnant and wants an abortion has demonstrated a lack of judgement already.


Let's see...

My wife's mother got pregnant with her while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her older son while on the Pill.
My wife got pregnant with her younger son while on the Pill, and after her ex-husband had gotten a vasectomy.
My wife got pregnant with an earlier baby while on another form of B.C. She lost that one, BTW, just to keep number of kids in perspective.
My wife got pregnant with our daughter while on Nuva Ring.

You're right, there are so many forms of BC available. 4 have failed my wife, but you're right, it's her fault for her "lack of judgement".
 
2012-04-09 12:41:03 PM  

Slesfo: you have another human being whose life you are ending. that is an incontrovertible fact.


No. No it's not.
 
2012-04-09 12:41:18 PM  

Mikey1969: lennavan: Also, I've never heard of a c-section referred to as "traumatic." It's surgery for sure but not traumatic.

LOL, spoken exactly like someone who will never ever possibly have to get a Cesarean...


LOL spoken exactly like someone who knows nothing about C-sections.

LOL.
 
2012-04-09 12:41:47 PM  

Biological Ali: skullkrusher: I am fine with considering it a double homicide. As I said, it is an inconsistency that I am cool with. Doesn't bother me at all. What if the pregnant woman is merely punched in the stomach causing her to miscarry. Should it be a simple battery? Why does calling it murder bother you so much?

Because there's no logical basis for calling it that. Just as there's no logical basis for calling it burglary or racketeering or tax evasion. But then, of course, you might say that it's okay not to make sense in cases like this, since only it's only bad people who will be affected by this. Even that's not true, though; things like these can have unintended* consequences. Consequences like these laws being cited by people trying to advance their "abortion is murder" stance.

*I use the term loosely; I'm quite sure that plenty of the law's supporters intended precisely this consequence.


so what is it? An unfortunate but not prosecutable byproduct of the mother's murder? Does it become a double homicide based on the threshold set by state abortion law?
 
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