frepnog: that makes no sense. I simply drew a parallel between 2 laws. abortion is legal, fine. that means that abortion is legally not murder. fine. then why can a perp be charged with the murder of the unborn? after all, it isn't a baby, right? well, either it is or it isn't. much like the bible, too many contradictions.

Who do you think supports those kinds of laws? Are you under the impression that they're there at the behest of the women's rights movement? That it's somehow analogous to a 'bible' for women's rights advocates?


what do i think a parasite is? one species attaching itself and living off of another species. don't be obtuse, you full well know that a fetus is not a parasite and a simple google search will show you why.


If we're considering the fetus to be a distinct organism as opposed to simply a part of the mother, then you can't really see an unwanted fetus as anything other than a parasite. That the parasite in this case happens to be same species as the host is a trivial detail.

wow, some people really have a problem with killing babies.

God Is My Co-Pirate:
What gives anyone the right to think they could make those decisions for me?

Women's bodies are public property - didn't you get the memo?

Biological Ali: frepnog: it means that if you plan to abort, do it in the first three months. It gets harder and harder to argue that a fetus over 3 months gestation is anything other than a baby.

I'm not sure whether your own personal inability to put together rational arguments is necessarily the best basis for law.

there are plenty of rational arguments for and against abortion. the situation is murky at best.

My personal feelings are that abortion is in most cases wrong. This isn't based on religion (i am an atheist). It isn't based on wanting to control women (altho 50 million abortions surely point to women that can't control themselves). It is based on the fact that a "fetus", if carried to term will be born and will be a person. That means that a fetus is at WORST a "potential human". Arguing when life "begins" is simply bullcrap to cloud the issue.

I don't want all abortions banned, and I certainly think making pregnant women undergo an ultrasound before abortion is just ridiculous, but I am all for trying to make a woman that wants an abortion of convenience understand that the "fetus" inside her is more than a clump of cells. How we get there is obviously going to take some time.

Why stop there?

"Sally, we heard you broke up with Tom last week. That's completely unacceptable. If you had stayed in your relationship we estimate there was a 30% chance of your getting married and having 2 kids, so we're going to count it as 60% of an abortion".

Stefanwulf: mainstreet62: If you're the government, how the FARK do you prove when a woman menstruated?

Confidential medical records? Federal agents in their homes? Uterus-cam?

WTF?

They require that the physician performing the abortion or the referring physician examine the woman and estimate the "probable gestational age".

From the bill:
"In making that determination, the physician or referring physician shall make any inquiries of the pregnant woman and perform or cause to be performed all medical examinations, imaging studies and tests as a reasonably prudent physician in the community, knowledgeable about the medical facts and conditions of both the woman and the unborn child involved, would consider necessary to perform and consider in making an accurate diagnosis with respect to gestational age."

Which is pretty much what they already do, so this is just a bullshiat bill trying to exert more and more control over people's lives, brought to you by(And I'm not kidding about this one) 'The Party of Small Government'...

abortion is such a waste. they should go ahead and give birth, then take the baby to an active volcano and sacrifice it to the god of convenience.

God Is My Co-Pirate: frepnog: JusticeandIndependence: pxsteel: Summer Glau's Love Slave: "Under Arizona's H.B. 2036, the state would recognize the start of the unborn child's life to be the first day of its mother's last menstrual period."

Wow, you farkers are idiots. You do realize that this is how it is figured. If you are pregnant, your last cycle is how they figure the age of the fetus and the due date for when the child will be born. "When was your last cycle" is the first question the doctor/nurse asks when you are pregnant.

/pro choice
//get it done by the end of the first trimester

What's this mean?

it means that if you plan to abort, do it in the first three months. It gets harder and harder to argue that a fetus over 3 months gestation is anything other than a baby.

Just a couple of scenarios:

If my 3 year-old was, god forbid, horrifically injured and became a vegetable, it would be my call, as her mother, whether to continue life support, not the state's. If a much-wanted fetus of mine were to go through the same thing, it is stil my call, not the state's.

If I were 7 months pregnant - again, with a much-wanted baby - and found out that I had cancer, I would abort in order to get chemo. A heartbreaking decision, sure, but I wouldn't leave my 3-year-old and my 9-month old motherless.

What gives anyone the right to think they could make those decisions for me?

Euthanasia is in most cases illegal. Someone thinks they have the right (it seems) to make life and death decisions for you for the greater good of mankind.

Abortion is in no way good for mankind, it cheapens life and makes the defenseless disposable.

^{"I would like to listen to the 50 million-plus children that have been aborted and killed since Roe v. Wade,'' the senator says."I would like to listen to what they think of this bill.''}
-=-
Much like yourself, they can't think. (You stupid cow.) They we're not even born to have an opinion.
Why don't you ask a rock how it feels?

/You can't tell me that this is not someone trying to dominate others.

skullkrusher: I am pro-status quo on abortion and I've always found the "lol it's a parasite" argument to be in terrible taste and a really silly way to make your case. You're not gonna convince anyone you're anything but the worst they assume when referring to a fetus as a tapeworm

Good for you. I personally find glib statements like "a fetus is not a parasite" and "pregnancy is not a disease" to be in poor taste.

skullkrusher: in many places, breech births are done via c-section because the OBs lack training in vaginal breech deliveries and despite the dangers of C-section, it is less potentially traumatic for mother and child in those cases. I've never heard of an ordinance requiring all births be via c-section

OBs are the #1 sued field of medicine, so they often err on the side of safety. Also, hospitals have rules where they will not allow certain types of VBACs, or no VBACs, depending. But this is all due to malpractice insurance, not to personhood laws.

This is not a cake.

Stoker: "I would like to listen to the 50 million-plus children that have been aborted and killed since Roe v. Wade,'' the senator says."I would like to listen to what they think of this bill.''
-=-
Much like yourself, they can't think. (You stupid cow.) They we're not even born to have an opinion.
Why don't you ask a rock how it feels?

/You can't tell me that this is not someone trying to dominate others.

silly laws. how dare they try to dominate me by making the speed limit 65. IT IS MY CHOICE to drive 90.

So in Arizona women are in a constant state of Schroedinger's pregnancy unless they are actively menstruating?

frepnog: bullshiat and you know it. Otherwise in murder cases (or wrongful death/injury) where a pregnant woman was killed (or injured causing the death of the fetus), the perp could not be charged with the murder of the unborn child.

Well, there is one main difference between abortion and foeticide: The woman's choice. I doubt there are many women who choose to be beaten to death by their psychopathic drunken boyfriends.

NkThrasher: So in Arizona women are in a constant state of Schroedinger's pregnancy unless they are actively menstruating?

how do you get a piano up there?

There should never be a law on the books with the words "menstrual cycle".

skullkrusher: Biological Ali: Who do you think supports those kinds of laws? Are you under the impression that they're there at the behest of the women's rights movement? That it's somehow analogous to a 'bible' for women's rights advocates?

decent people who recognize that the death of mother and unborn child is more traumatic to the survivors than the death of a wife or girlfriend alone?

Still not sure how you'd make the leap from "people feel bad about this" to "this is murder", unless you're using feelings as a substitute for logic.

frepnog: Abortion is in no way good for mankind, it cheapens life

We are pretty close to 7 Billion on this planet and how many have come and gone before that? How can you argue that "life" is special?

Guidette Frankentits: [catholiclane.com image 500x455]
This is not a cake.

It's better than a cake, much like a fetus is better than a person.

Rann Xerox: Since Arizona considers that clutch of two-week-old dividing cells a person, can a woman declare it as a dependent on her tax return?

Not only that, the resulting kid should get to drink, gamble and smoke 9 1/2 months early, too...

frepnog: Biological Ali: frepnog: it means that if you plan to abort, do it in the first three months. It gets harder and harder to argue that a fetus over 3 months gestation is anything other than a baby.

I'm not sure whether your own personal inability to put together rational arguments is necessarily the best basis for law.

there are plenty of rational arguments for and against abortion. the situation is murky at best.

My personal feelings are that abortion is in most cases wrong. This isn't based on religion (i am an atheist). It isn't based on wanting to control women (altho 50 million abortions surely point to women that can't control themselves). It is based on the fact that a "fetus", if carried to term will be born and will be a person. That means that a fetus is at WORST a "potential human". Arguing when life "begins" is simply bullcrap to cloud the issue.

I don't want all abortions banned, and I certainly think making pregnant women undergo an ultrasound before abortion is just ridiculous, but I am all for trying to make a woman that wants an abortion of convenience understand that the "fetus" inside her is more than a clump of cells. How we get there is obviously going to take some time.

You could have typed "I don't trust women to make serious decisions about their own reproductive processes because I think they're slutty slutty sluts whose ladybrains just can't be trusted like menz brainz" and saved yourself some keystrokes.

/trusts women

jst3p: frepnog: Abortion is in no way good for mankind, it cheapens life

We are pretty close to 7 Billion on this planet and how many have come and gone before that? How can you argue that "life" is special?

The same way every one of those 7 Billion people was a "miracle" when they were born.

skullkrusher: colon_pow: abortion is such a waste. they should go ahead and give birth, then take the baby to an active volcano and sacrifice it to the god of convenience.

hehe not bad. Short and immensely stupid but still funny.

7/10

i see this seriously as the modern incarnation of child sacrifice to Mammon.

frepnog: it means that if you plan to abort, do it in the first three months. It gets harder and harder to argue that a fetus over 3 months gestation is anything other than a baby.

No it doesn't. It's a baby once it breathes outside the womb. An embryo is an embryo, a fetus is a fetus. A baby is a baby. These are specific words with different meanings to describe specific stages of development.

Your emotions and beliefs are not fact. They don't change what these words are.

And you advocate only half the time allotted by Roe V. Wade? That's horrifying. Tests for terminal diseases haven't even been done at that point.

Women generally don't find out they're pregnant until approx. 6-8 weeks after the end of their last period. Mostly because menstrual cycles are not on a clockwork schedule if they're not regulated by birth control pills. They come late, they skip, they come early. Women who have perfect 25-31 day cycles their entire fertile life are rare - only about 1 in 10 experience this.

Unless someone's actively working on getting pregnant and obsessed with those pee stick tests for confirmation the moment the hormone is strong enough to be detected (at approx. 4 weeks after the end of the last period), a woman generally isn't even going to get a test unless she's at least couple weeks late.

jst3p: How can you argue that "life" is special?

Life is special until you're physically born, then fark off if you want medical benefits.

skullkrusher: when the family plans on having the baby, there is more than just a single murder being committed. It's an inconsistency that I am perfectly happy maintaining.

Okay. And what if the couple planned on having three kids, but the woman gets killed before her first pregnancy? Should the murderer be guilty of a quadruple-homicide?

jst3p: frepnog: Abortion is in no way good for mankind, it cheapens life

We are pretty close to 7 Billion on this planet and how many have come and gone before that? How can you argue that "life" is special?

I don't really know how to respond. I suppose that is a question best answered by those that are being systematically and legally wiped out.

skullkrusher: Biological Ali: skullkrusher: Biological Ali: Who do you think supports those kinds of laws? Are you under the impression that they're there at the behest of the women's rights movement? That it's somehow analogous to a 'bible' for women's rights advocates?

decent people who recognize that the death of mother and unborn child is more traumatic to the survivors than the death of a wife or girlfriend alone?

Still not sure how you'd make the leap from "people feel bad about this" to "this is murder", unless you're using feelings as a substitute for logic.

when the family plans on having the baby, there is more than just a single murder being committed. It's an inconsistency that I am perfectly happy maintaining.

agree

By this logic men who spank one out should be prosecuted also as them sperms were viable babies before they were deposited in the crusty sock under the bed...