lilplatinum: Marine1:
They go to church seeking answers and for fellowship. If your average Catholic came upon the priest molesting a child and did nothing, you'd have a point. Problem is (for you), most Catholics have never been in a situation where they could directly confront an offending priest about such an act. In fact, most members of Catholic congregations don't know it goes on until it shows up on the news.

The Churchs covering up of child rape and HIV proliferation are not hidden views, they are fundamental institutional positions of the Church known to all. If you are a member of an organization and that blatently ignorant about the positions of that organization, then that is almost as bad as being knowledgable and still supporting that organization. Ignorance is no defense, you are still monetarily and socially supporting a reprehensible organization.

People are generally good, regardless of religious affiliation or other partisan ties.

Reality doesn't really reflect that position.

If you put a massive problem in front of them, they try to solve it. Pedophilia is no different. There are Catholics who want to change the power structure and traditions of the church to make problems like pedophilia go away. Are they just as bad as the priests that fiddle kids, even though they're trying to change 2,000 years of tradition? Or are you going to paint them with a broad brush yet again based on the fact that you don't like theism and want any excuse to throw the faithful under the bus?

Except there is no real effort to change it. People keep shelling out money to support these horrendous policies. If there was widespread Catholic protest over their horrid policies then the organization would be forced to change or die. Unfortunately most members of the organization view it as a problem that doesn't concern then and thus are tacitly guilty for the perpetuation of these crimes. The Catholic Church is a threat to global health and children safety and should be t ...

No, reality doesn't reflect your position.

What's actually happening

Basically, I don't find you believable. You don't want the church to change, you don't want reform, you don't want things to get better while people continue to worship as they see fit... you want the church to go away because you don't like the idea that someone believes something based on reasons not backed by physical evidence. The Catholic church is the largest such single body on earth, and this is your opportunity to tear them down. You are simply incapable of dealing with the fact that people believe things that you don't hold as true and want them to go through major amounts of cognitive distress until they get to the point you're at. That's not how you improve people or situations, it's how you get people to hate you. It's not rational or reasonable to do.

I'm not Catholic. My best friend, the woman I love - does not share my belief in Jesus. But I think it'd be damned foolish to try and treat the Catholics, and by extension, people like my girlfriend like you do rank-and-file parishioners.

Marine1: What's actually happening

So 12,000 Austrians out of almost a billion Catholics are protesting, and yet the upper echelons of Catholicism are showing no signs of progress.

Too little, too late. The Catholic Church itself is heavily resistant towards change and there is no mass reform movement.

Basically, I don't find you believable. You don't want the church to change, you don't want reform, you don't want things to get better while people continue to worship as they see fit... you want the church to go away because you don't like the idea that someone believes something based on reasons not backed by physical evidence.

I want the Church to go away because it supports child rape and HIV proliferation. I think religion is a pox on humanity but I understand that reality is hard and the average person needs a crutch to deal with it. Religion serves as that crutch for many, but there are churches that aren't atrocious institutions that can fill that roll.


The Catholic church is the largest such single body on earth, and this is your opportunity to tear them down. You are simply incapable of dealing with the fact that people believe things that you don't hold as true and want them to go through major amounts of cognitive distress until they get to the point you're at. That's not how you improve people or situations, it's how you get people to hate you. It's not rational or reasonable to do.

Actually tearing down the Catholic Church has worked fairly well for rational people, there is a reason it faces membership crises in places that are not third world shiatholes. Educating people in general makes them far more likely to abandon the Church like most of us ex-catholics who are able to view reality.

Cognitive dissonance is what parishiners practice to remain Catholics - as seen by the "not in my parish" rationalizations quoted throughout this thread.

I'm not Catholic. My best friend, the woman I love - does not share my belief in Jesus. But I think it'd be damned foolish to try and treat the Catholics, and by extension, people like my girlfriend like you do rank-and-file parishioners.

You would be damned foolish to not hold people accountable for their voluntary associations.

Also, note the official church policy in your own farking link:

Schönborn met Aug. 10 with leading members of the initiative and countered the priests' "Appeal to Disobedience" with an "Appeal for Unity." Schönborn reminded the priests that when they were ordained, they promised the bishop "reverence and obedience."
Anyone who has come to the decision "that Rome is on a wrong track," he said, must leave the Catholic church.

Good policy - if you oppose the king in the pointy hat GTFO... Real ripe for reform.

It's disappointing that some of you are choosing Easter Sunday to have this discussion that is anti-Christian.

Please save it for another day, and consider the feelings of others before throwing out hurtful comments.

rbaron71: It's disappointing that some of you are choosing Easter Sunday to have this discussion that is anti-Christian.

Please save it for another day, and consider the feelings of others before throwing out hurtful comments.

It is disappointing that the faithful have nothing better to do on one of their most holy days than dickinng around on Fark.

lilplatinum: It is disappointing that the faithful have nothing better to do on one of their most holy days than dickinng around on Fark.

Again- at what point does acting like a shiat (e.g. "enjoying pushing people's buttons") turn into actually being a shiat?

Sir Roderick Glossop: lilplatinum: It is disappointing that the faithful have nothing better to do on one of their most holy days than dickinng around on Fark.

Again- at what point does acting like a shiat (e.g. "enjoying pushing people's buttons") turn into actually being a shiat?

When one supports an organization that actively promotes child molestation and HIV.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: About the point that you equate being against child rape as "enjoying pushing people's buttons".

lilplatinum: When one supports an organization that actively promotes child molestation and HIV.

Yeah, we get it. You guys don't like child rape or AIDS. We'll be sure to count you among Earth's greatest heroes for this controversial and courageous stance. I just missed the part where rbaron71 threw his lot in with the papists. And the part where everyone who ever went to a seminary becomes a piece of shiat.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: It's hard to take your whining seriously when you're the one who spent the entire thread pointing fingers and declaring people pieces of shiat. You don't have the right to be offended when we bat your stupid pissy tantrums right back into your face.

Offended? You give yourself too much credit. Your partner, in his profile, says one of his "interests" is "pushing people's buttons." And I'm not declaring anyone as being a piece of shiat. I'm merely pointing out that ultimately all of us are as good or bad as the sum total of our behavior- including behavior on safe, anonymous web sites. If you don't think of yourself as a prick, don't act like a chain-yanking smartassed prick. 'Cause if you act like one, you need to ask yourself, if on some level, you are one.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Given the examples I provided above, that makes you a liar.

Those were questions. Note the format of the sentences; statements don't end with question marks. They were questions designed to make people reflect on whether or not they are proud of and stand by their behavior. And wound-licking and feeling sorry for myself over our exchange? Lol.

LouDobbsAwaaaay Hey I just looked and see that you're from Madison! Is that place with "burritos as big as your head" still open on State Street?

LouDobbsAwaaaay: What's it feel like to be such a pathetic liar?

Meh- the shoe doesn't quite fit. I'm sure you and platinum and even ol' marius2 at the top are fine people to hang out with. I don't think one or two comments in a thread defines a person's ultimate worth. That said, I think that people behave more poorly in these venues than they would in person. I don't think it's unfair to point out that discrepancy and make people reflect on their behavior. Like I said, it's the sum total of a person's behavior in life...

HOW IS THIS SAD AT ALL?

THE GUY IS A PRIEST, AND HE'S DYING. PARTY!!!

I mean, the asshole thinks he's going to some happy paradise for all eternity, why is he even sad he's dying?



//Yes, I'm sincerely happy everytime one of this assholes die. So what?

almafuerte: HOW IS THIS SAD AT ALL?

THE GUY IS A PRIEST, AND HE'S DYING. PARTY!!!

I mean, the asshole thinks he's going to some happy paradise for all eternity, why is he even sad he's dying?

[www.yourfunnystuff.com image 500x459]

//Yes, I'm sincerely happy everytime one of this assholes die. So what?

5/10

almafuerte: HOW IS THIS SAD AT ALL?

THE GUY IS A PRIEST, AND HE'S DYING. PARTY!!!

I mean, the asshole thinks he's going to some happy paradise for all eternity, why is he even sad he's dying?

[www.yourfunnystuff.com image 500x459]

//Yes, I'm sincerely happy everytime one of this assholes die. So what?

0/10 trying to hard, maybe if you left the picture out.... But just way too trollish ....

Gyrfalcon: Wow, a priest who walks it like he talks it. I'm impressed.

Seriously, I have nothing but respect for genuine holy men.

When you're in the company of a genuine holy man, you'll know it.

LovingTeacher: Bedstead Polisher: Thank you everyone who said what I wanted to say. I find that the biggest opponents of the Catholic Church are those who have 0 experience with it. It is because of my Catholic education that I am so open minded the lack of religion/faith right now in my life is mostly due to the fact that I was taught to think for myself and question sources (ex: was taught that the Bible was written hundreds of years after things supposedly took place, PLUS was translated, so just take the message, don't take it literally.) Plus, while the Catholic Church may have specific messages that non-Catholics associate with it, you have to remember that it's run by people (with their own minds), so I never heard those messages growing up. I've never been taught not to use birth control, nor that homosexuality was wrong or any of that stuff.

Ex-catholic here too, and I am a huge opponent of the Catholic church.

As for not hearing anti-gay or anti-birth control nonsense in church I don't know where you grew up but out here in California where I grew up the nun that taught my third grade catechism class spent a whole class telling us that birth control was the equivalent of murder and during the late 80s when I was a teenager anti-gay rhetoric was pretty common. I know lots of ex-catholics and they are pretty much like me, atheist Catholic church haters.

I grew up near Toronto, Canada. I didn't have any nuns in my school. It is very possible that I heard this stuff but it didn't apply to me so I didn't listen? Though, I had gay (but not yet out) friends in highschool and it never mattered to me that they were gay (except for when I was 12 and had a huge crush on one.. oops). I would think the anti-gay sentiment was typical for most highschools (not that it is right, just that teenagers are assholes by nature).
My own personal problem with Catholicism arose when a priest once told me I'd go to hell for not going to church every Sunday and not going to confession on a regular basis. (I'll stop myself before I start on a rant).

Trapper439: Thisbymaster: And here the atheists will show their true colors, constantly shiatting on everything. No matter how uplifting or good, watch and weep as the same extremists that tarnish the records of other groups come and tarnish yours.

What exactly has religion ever done that was "uplifting or good"?

well let's see

helping the sick
helping the dying
helping the poor
comforting families
helping victims of natural disasters
preserving texts/knowledge/history
art
liturature
philosophy

nope! nothing at all! ass

Zizzowop: Every muslim is not a terrorist, every catholic priest is not a pedophile, and every atheist is not a dick. This guy's last sermon was not filled with religious derp, so cut him a little slack.

you wouldn't know it from this thread

Fish_Fight!: Trapper439: Thisbymaster: And here the atheists will show their true colors, constantly shiatting on everything. No matter how uplifting or good, watch and weep as the same extremists that tarnish the records of other groups come and tarnish yours.

What exactly has religion ever done that was "uplifting or good"?

well let's see

helping the sick
helping the dying
helping the poor
comforting families
helping victims of natural disasters
preserving texts/knowledge/history
art
liturature
philosophy

nope! nothing at all! ass

To be fair, though, religions also occasionally help to destroy:

texts/knowledge/history
art
literature
philosophy

/not religious, but not anti-religious either. Good and bad people can be found on either side of the divide.

capt.hollister: Fish_Fight!: Trapper439: Thisbymaster: And here the atheists will show their true colors, constantly shiatting on everything. No matter how uplifting or good, watch and weep as the same extremists that tarnish the records of other groups come and tarnish yours.

What exactly has religion ever done that was "uplifting or good"?

well let's see

helping the sick
helping the dying
helping the poor
comforting families
helping victims of natural disasters
preserving texts/knowledge/history
art
liturature
philosophy

nope! nothing at all! ass

To be fair, though, religions also occasionally help to destroy:

texts/knowledge/history
art
literature
philosophy

/not religious, but not anti-religious either. Good and bad people can be found on either side of the divide.

totally agree with ya

Fish_Fight!: helping the sick
helping the dying
helping the poor
comforting families
helping victims of natural disasters
preserving texts/knowledge/history
art
liturature
philosophy

Yes, because only people who believe in fairy tales do the above... please.

Did it ever occur to you that people do the things you mentioned because they are human beings? That maybe they do those things *despite* being religious rather than because of it?

Uncle Tractor: Yes, because only people who believe in fairy tales do the above... please.

Did it ever occur to you that people do the things you mentioned because they are human beings? That maybe they do those things *despite* being religious rather than because of it?


I think religion came about because we doubted our species capability for altruism.

You know how there's some people out there who cannot be convinced that ancient monuments like the Pyramids of Egypt or Stonehenge were built by humans? Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

I think gods were invented by people because they could not believe in their own species's ability to do good.

PenguinTheRed: Copper Spork: 2.bp.blogspot.com

[i271.photobucket.com image 640x362]

/fixed

The very important difference here is that Stalin, and other communists, weren't inspired to their actions by their atheism. They were inspired by the tenets of dictatorial communism. While communism does include atheism as a tenet, nowhere does it say "there's no god, so totalitarianism is a-ok." But the religiously inspired point to their holy books for specific examples of why violence and murder are sanctioned.

themeaningoflifeisnot: I think gods were invented by people because they could not believe in their own species's ability to do good.

Have you read any of the supposed Holy books? You or I could write better morality in 5 minutes. They were written by ignorant, bigoted savages who were interested in justifying their inhumanity with mysticism.

I believe gods were invented because people didn't have science to figure things out. It's way easier to just make up an answer than to admit you don't know, especially when you don't have a process in place to work to discover that answer.

themeaningoflifeisnot: Coelacanth: Uncle Tractor: Yes, because only people who believe in fairy tales do the above... please.

Did it ever occur to you that people do the things you mentioned because they are human beings? That maybe they do those things *despite* being religious rather than because of it?


I think religion came about because we doubted our species capability for altruism.

You know how there's some people out there who cannot be convinced that ancient monuments like the Pyramids of Egypt or Stonehenge were built by humans? Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

I think gods were invented by people because they could not believe in their own species's ability to do good.

I doubt that the laborers who were worked to death building the Great Pyramids thought much of the species' ability to do good.

The idea that slaves built the pyramids has been proven a myth. They've discovered the camps where the craftsmen that did the actual building of the pyramids lived, and their quality of life was much better than most of the citizenry of that time. Slaves mostly worked in fields at that time.

Bio-nic: marius2: It must be sad though for all those parishioners, I mean imagine how many of them he knows closely. He must have taken the virginity of half of those kids.

Bad taste, sir.

Maybe he didn't swallow.

themeaningoflifeisnot: I didn't say slaves had built the pyramids, did I?

And I didn't say that you weren't going to get PLONKED!

Kome: Pathman: you do this a lot i've noticed

What? Try and defend a point of disagreement between my view and another's?

Bedstead Polisher: This man did? Do you know that for a fact? We don't know how this man felt about the church's actions on the many different pedophilia scandals. Maybe he was appalled by it but also so full of faith in the other ideas that he felt he must continue on as a positive example to the community and felt he represented all the good the church does. There ARE good people in the world, believe it or not. The church also does not say "hey, pedophilia is cool." They might imply that with their handling of the scandals, but they don't teach that it is acceptable.

He was a Catholic priest. Yes he contributed to an organization that lamented the fact it was caught in a child rape scandal more than the fact that it was a haven for child rapists, an organization that hindered criminal investigations rather than help them, an organization that during its own internal investigation put someone in charge of it who was later found out to be a pedophile himself.

If you stick around an organization that is ensconced in child rape to the same degree at the Catholic Church was/is, you're contributing to it even if it isn't your specific penis violating child after child while being moved from parish to parish. There is no ideal, or principle, or dictum that could possibly allow any person of conscience to stick around and work for or donate to an organization like that. Catholicism, as an ideal or a religious view, is not what I'm railing against right now (although I do tend to do that). But the behaviors and practices of the hierarchy and the clergy are so horrid that even trying to play devil's advocate here is morally repugnant.

By your logic, every Penn State fan is now a pedophile

Loreweaver: By your logic, every Penn State fan is now a pedophile

Not very good with logic, are ya?

Let me help you out: By his logic, anyone who supported the football program after it was found out that it actively covered up child rape and allowed Jerry Sandusky to continue to rape boys are guilty of condoning child molestation. Joe Paterno was guilty of abetting a criminal. So, following that logic:

Guilty Priests: Pedophiles
Guilty Bishops: Abetted Pedophiles
Catholics who support the church: Condones pedophilia

I hope that helps.

FarkinHostile: Loreweaver: By your logic, every Penn State fan is now a pedophile

Not very good with logic, are ya?

Let me help you out: By his logic, anyone who supported the football program after it was found out that it actively covered up child rape and allowed Jerry Sandusky to continue to rape boys are guilty of condoning child molestation. Joe Paterno was guilty of abetting a criminal. So, following that logic:

Guilty Priests: Pedophiles
Guilty Bishops: Abetted Pedophiles
Catholics who support the church: Condones pedophilia

I hope that helps.

My point was, that many people are still fans of Penn State, despite the scandal. Also, there are many people who still work for the Penn State football program, who had nothing to do with the scandal. But, supporting or working for the organization, is not the same as condoning the actions of a few members of that organization.

People in this thread are condemning the priest in TFA, because he still works for the Catholic Church, even after it was revealed that other priests (whom he had no prior knowledge of) committed horrible acts.

The people in this thread are calling *HIM* a pedophile, by extension, because he didn't cut all ties with the Catholic Church when that scandal hit.

If "all priests are pedophiles" because a few are, then I guess everyone at Penn State is also a pedophile, because of a few people there.

/Penn State fan
//Hates the generalizations levied against us since the scandal.

Coelacanth: If there were more priests like him, we would have none of the insanity that torments us all today.

The Heavenly Choir awaits you father. Godspeed.

No. No it does not.

Loreweaver:

My point was, that many people are still fans of Penn State, despite the scandal. Also, there are many people who still work for the Penn State football program, who had nothing to do with the scandal. But, supporting or working for the organization, is not the same as condoning the actions of a few members of that organization.


Well, actually, it's close.

There are plenty of people who feel the Penn State Football program should be nuked as a deterrent/penalty to the systematic covering up of the crimes by high level officials in the program for the reason to protect the program. Like it or not, they have a point. If JoePa knew that the entire football program would be vaporized in shame, I doubt he would have done what he did. There would have been dozens of fewer raped boys.

Is a football program worth allowing child rape? Is a religious organization? One can still believe in Catholicism, and acknowledge the Church is corrupt and did great wrong.

People in this thread are condemning the priest in TFA, because he still works for the Catholic Church, even after it was revealed that other priests (whom he had no prior knowledge of) committed horrible acts.

He most certainly had knowledge that the Church covered up/protected pedophiles for a long, long time, as well as moved them to new locations to continue their crimes.

A truly moral person would not want to be associated with such an organization, IMNSHO. I, personally, would have quickly ended my association with such a group.

The people in this thread are calling *HIM* a pedophile, by extension, because he didn't cut all ties with the Catholic Church when that scandal hit.

I don't see it that way, I see them calling him a member of a organization that covered up/protected pedophiles, and thus shares in the guilt by association. Similar to how a KKK member may be a great guy, but by voluntary association/membership shares in the guilt of his peers.

/Penn State fan
//Hates the generalizations levied against us since the scandal.

Why am I not surprised at that?

Yeah, many people are still fans of Penn State football. Yeah, many people are still church supporting catholics. All this does is show how easily humans can embrace denial, especially when they have personal identity involved in the subject.

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Coelacanth: If there were more priests like him, we would have none of the insanity that torments us all today.

The Heavenly Choir awaits you father. Godspeed.

No. No it does not.

PLONK!

FarkinHostile: Loreweaver:

My point was, that many people are still fans of Penn State, despite the scandal. Also, there are many people who still work for the Penn State football program, who had nothing to do with the scandal. But, supporting or working for the organization, is not the same as condoning the actions of a few members of that organization.


Well, actually, it's close.

There are plenty of people who feel the Penn State Football program should be nuked as a deterrent/penalty to the systematic covering up of the crimes by high level officials in the program for the reason to protect the program. Like it or not, they have a point. If JoePa knew that the entire football program would be vaporized in shame, I doubt he would have done what he did. There would have been dozens of fewer raped boys.

Is a football program worth allowing child rape? Is a religious organization? One can still believe in Catholicism, and acknowledge the Church is corrupt and did great wrong.

People in this thread are condemning the priest in TFA, because he still works for the Catholic Church, even after it was revealed that other priests (whom he had no prior knowledge of) committed horrible acts.

He most certainly had knowledge that the Church covered up/protected pedophiles for a long, long time, as well as moved them to new locations to continue their crimes.

A truly moral person would not want to be associated with such an organization, IMNSHO. I, personally, would have quickly ended my association with such a group.

The people in this thread are calling *HIM* a pedophile, by extension, because he didn't cut all ties with the Catholic Church when that scandal hit.

I don't see it that way, I see them calling him a member of a organization that covered up/protected pedophiles, and thus shares in the guilt by association. Similar to how a KKK member may be a great guy, but by voluntary association/membership shares in the guilt of his peers.
.

Ah, but you misunderstand. I believe JoePa and the staff who knew should have been punished for not doing more. However, this "thing" people have with wanting to nuke the entire program, thus punishing all the players and fans who knew nothing of this until the scandal hit, is insane.

Likewise, I have a problem with this "thing" people have with wanting to nuke Every Single Priest That Ever Lived, even those who speak out against the Church's actions, but who had no real power at the time to stop it.

As a priest, he had a choice when he found out about the scandal:

Abandon his post, running away and leaving his congregation without guidance, and destroy what little faith they had left.

OR

He could stay, and do whatever was in his power to change things, for the better, from within, and show everyone that he is not willing to abandon the Church to the corrupt few within it.

Its no different than police forces nowadays. We are seeing too many good men and women leave the force in disgust, rather than fight against the corrupt within it, thus leaving only corrupt officers.

Loreweaver: Ah, but you misunderstand. I believe JoePa and the staff who knew should have been punished for not doing more. However, this "thing" people have with wanting to nuke the entire program, thus punishing all the players and fans who knew nothing of this until the scandal hit, is insane.

Likewise, I have a problem with this "thing" people have with wanting to nuke Every Single Priest That Ever Lived, even those who speak out against the Church's actions, but who had no real power at the time to stop it.

In both cases people have the ability to disassociate themselves with an organization or employer that actively protects child rapists, and if they don't do so then there is guilt by association.

If my employer was systematically and actively covering up kiddie rape, I would find a different employer once it came to light..