We're all born with original sin, folks. So lets face it! God and Jesus are real and that's the facts!

capt.hollister: If you are a citizen of the USofA, you belong to an organization that burned innocent people at the stake when a neighbour accused them of witchcraft, who enslaved and mistreated countless others because they had the bad idea of being born in the "dark continent", and who displaced and/or killed millions of natives in order to give their land to someone who was fortunate enough to have had European grandparents.

You are not above anything. You are the beneficiary of crimes committed by others.

Where should he move to? Simple enough to renounce and stop supporting the Catholic Church. Besides, remaining a Catholic is a choice, being a US Citizen is an accident of birth.

david_gaithersburg: I whole lot of hate filled people here. What a shame they don't expend some of that energy doing something, anything.

Derp on little closed minded twats.

I was calling attention to the hypocrisy to a gigantic organization that claims to help people through charity while actually making the world a worse place for most people and cashing in personally on it. Is that not something positive?

Let's keep in mind what's important here. Dozens of hate filled Farkers will spend today, tomorrow, and every day after that living in pure hate filled misery and loneliness.

And according to a thread from yesterday, most of them are also disgustingly fat. BONUS!

david_gaithersburg: Let's keep in mind what's important here. Dozens of hate filled Farkers will spend today, tomorrow, and every day after that living in pure hate filled misery and loneliness.

And according to a thread from yesterday, most of them are also disgustingly fat. BONUS!

So vote Jesus?

Fark_Guy_Rob: Copper Spork: Fark_Guy_Rob: That doesn't mean I support all of the horrible things the US (and other US citizens) has/have done, or the horrible things Ireland has done, or the horrible things 'my' company has done, or the horrible things other people have done in the financial industry. But I belong to all of those groups. Certainly, as seen by outsiders who don't know me.

Unless you are truly self-sufficient; whether or not you want to admit it - you are apart of many groups. And they've almost certainly done horrible things you don't agree with.

Would you accept that defence for members of the KKK or Al Qaeda too?

As much as people are going to take this out of context; yes - I would. To the extend that it is appropriate.

I truthfully don't know much about the stated goals and sanctioned actions of either the KKK or Al Qaeda. But when someone 'joins' a group - I only reasonably assume they are in some level of agreement with the stated and/or obvious goals of that organization. If Al Qaeda openly admits to supporting terrorism - then I'd reasonably assume people who join Al Qaeda support that, in the absence of additional evidence.

When I think of everything the Catholic church stands for - I don't think it's primary goal is to facilitate child molestation....so I reasonably assume that someone who is a priest does not necessarily support child molestation. Just like the primary goal of the United States wasn't to oppress black people or lock up japanese during WWII or to have children work dangerous jobs in factories. Sure the US *did* all of those things; but it wasn't central to it's stated belief system, at least not any more.

AH. So what say you about joining an organization and that organizaion changes what it does to somthing to which you object? Say you joined the KKK back when it was just a bunch of your white friends getting together and having poker night every friday. Then, some joker decides that he would rather burn down a black church. Suddenly every poker night turns into burn-down-a-black-church night. If you don't quit that orgainization, what does that say about you?

lilplatinum: capt.hollister: If you are a citizen of the USofA, you belong to an organization that burned innocent people at the stake when a neighbour accused them of witchcraft, who enslaved and mistreated countless others because they had the bad idea of being born in the "dark continent", and who displaced and/or killed millions of natives in order to give their land to someone who was fortunate enough to have had European grandparents.

Unlike the Catholic Church, membership of a country is not something you can realistically opt out of.

Copper Spork: capt.hollister: If you are a citizen of the USofA, you belong to an organization that burned innocent people at the stake when a neighbour accused them of witchcraft, who enslaved and mistreated countless others because they had the bad idea of being born in the "dark continent", and who displaced and/or killed millions of natives in order to give their land to someone who was fortunate enough to have had European grandparents.

You choose to go to church, call yourself Catholic and give money to protect child rapists. It's something you actively participate in. Being a citizen of the USA is something you are whether you like it or not, and it's not reasonably possible to opt out of it.

My point is only that you cannot blame every person who belongs to an organization with crimes committed by others, otherwise each and every one of us could be blamed for something.

Copper Spork: capt.hollister: If you are a citizen of the USofA, you belong to an organization that burned innocent people at the stake when a neighbour accused them of witchcraft, who enslaved and mistreated countless others because they had the bad idea of being born in the "dark continent", and who displaced and/or killed millions of natives in order to give their land to someone who was fortunate enough to have had European grandparents.

You choose to go to church, call yourself Catholic and give money to protect child rapists. It's something you actively participate in. Being a citizen of the USA is something you are whether you like it or not, and it's not reasonably possible to opt out of it.

At the very least, it's easy enough to leave the US where your day-to-day activities no longer directly support the US government. I live overseas; I'll pay nothing in income tax the US government and none of the various taxes like property tax or sales tax will go to the US government.

Beyond that - it's not that hard to renounce US citizenship
(http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html)

If people really feel that by remaining a US citizen they are supporting all of the bad things the US has ever done - I think it'd be pretty trivial to do.

david_gaithersburg: Let's keep in mind what's important here. Dozens of hate filled Farkers will spend today, tomorrow, and every day after that living in pure hate filled misery and loneliness.

We call them Christians.

david_gaithersburg: Let's keep in mind what's important here. Dozens of hate filled Farkers will spend today, tomorrow, and every day after that living in pure hate filled misery and loneliness.

And according to a thread from yesterday, most of them are also disgustingly fat. BONUS!

What hate filled misery and loneliness may look like.

/sorry about your weight problem

capt.hollister: My point is only that you cannot blame every person who belongs to an organization with crimes committed by others, otherwise each and every one of us could be blamed for something.

You can blame people who actively choose to financially and physically support an origanization that actively does atrocious things.

People don't actively choose to be a citizen of a country and it is not realisitcally possible for most people to opt out.

You actively choose a religion and, at least in modern America, it is realistically very easy to opt out.

capt.hollister: My point is only that you cannot blame every person who belongs to an organization with crimes committed by others, otherwise each and every one of us could be blamed for something.

There is a difference between being in an organisation which has some bad members, and being in an organisation whose entire management structure is actively involved in covering up child rape.

CanisNoir: Kome: If you stick around an organization that is ensconced in child rape to the same degree at the Catholic Church was/is, you're contributing to it even if it isn't your specific penis violating child after child while being moved from parish to parish.

So I take it you want the Public School System abolished? Or do you stand by that particular system well known for it's child rapists?

Do the school systems cover up the act, intimidate the victims and witnesses, and simply move the teacher to another school?
Or do they dismiss the teacher based only on the accusation, and actively aid in the investigation and prosecution of teachers accused of child molestation?

There is a slight difference, you know.

Fark_Guy_Rob: At the very least, it's easy enough to leave the US where your day-to-day activities no longer directly support the US government. I live overseas; I'll pay nothing in income tax the US government and none of the various taxes like property tax or sales tax will go to the US government.

Being an ex-pat does not get rid of your tax burden, Uncle Sam still demands a share of money you make abroad unless you are poor.

Beyond that - it's not that hard to renounce US citizenship
(http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html)

It is not that hard to renounce US citizenship, it is fairly difficult to acquire a replacement citizenship- hence renunciation not being realistic for most people.

Fark U: We're all born with original sin, folks. So lets face it! God and Jesus are real and that's the facts!

...and that is your opinion.

capt.hollister: If you are a citizen of the USofA, you belong to an organization that burned innocent people at the stake when a neighbour accused them of witchcraft, who enslaved and mistreated countless others because they had the bad idea of being born in the "dark continent", and who displaced and/or killed millions of natives in order to give their land to someone who was fortunate enough to have had European grandparents.

As horrible as all those things are, I don't recall the USA ever claiming to be ambassadors of the almighty, to being led by an infallible leader, and to claim absolute moral dominion over whether something is right or wrong because of the previous two points. Also, you know, the witchcraft thing was led by religious leaders, not governmental ones. Just saying. Oh, and the US has tried to right its wrongs. Slavery is abolished, and sections of the FBI, CIA, and local law enforcement agencies investigate and put a stop to modern day slavery (usually in the form of human sex trafficking). It isn't a spotless record, but it's one that shows change and improvement and admitting it makes mistakes. The Catholic Church's most significant apology over our lifetimes has been apologizing to Galileo for punishing him hundreds of years ago for daring to speak scientific facts that contradicted the Bible. But yea, both are bad, so the Catholic Church should never be criticized for doing anything wrong, and in fact really shouldn't even bother attempting to fix or atone or repent or seek forgiveness for their mistakes. I mean, really, how silly would that be? Atonement, redemption, forgiveness? Since when are those a part of the Catholic Church? Oh wait...

Fark_Guy_Rob: If people really feel that by remaining a US citizen they are supporting all of the bad things the US has ever done - I think it'd be pretty trivial to do.

Poor analogy. The US is a democracy where the public can voice grievances and work to change US policy through voting. The Constitution doesn't read "the people in charge are the sole gatekeepers of Heaven and there's nothing you can do about it", and the President isn't declared infallible.

Try again.

BurnShrike: rbaron71: Let's keep the thread positive, folks. It's an important day.

Yeah, it's the festival of spring fertility, as life returns to the land after the long winter. Or did you think eggs and rabbits had anything to do with Jesus?

Happy Oestre!

I don't know why I bothered coming in here. Those of you slandering or condemning the man and his religion are just as bad as those you hate. Grow up.

GBB: Fark_Guy_Rob: Copper Spork: Fark_Guy_Rob: That doesn't mean I support all of the horrible things the US (and other US citizens) has/have done, or the horrible things Ireland has done, or the horrible things 'my' company has done, or the horrible things other people have done in the financial industry. But I belong to all of those groups. Certainly, as seen by outsiders who don't know me.

Unless you are truly self-sufficient; whether or not you want to admit it - you are apart of many groups. And they've almost certainly done horrible things you don't agree with.

Would you accept that defence for members of the KKK or Al Qaeda too?

As much as people are going to take this out of context; yes - I would. To the extend that it is appropriate.

I truthfully don't know much about the stated goals and sanctioned actions of either the KKK or Al Qaeda. But when someone 'joins' a group - I only reasonably assume they are in some level of agreement with the stated and/or obvious goals of that organization. If Al Qaeda openly admits to supporting terrorism - then I'd reasonably assume people who join Al Qaeda support that, in the absence of additional evidence.

When I think of everything the Catholic church stands for - I don't think it's primary goal is to facilitate child molestation....so I reasonably assume that someone who is a priest does not necessarily support child molestation. Just like the primary goal of the United States wasn't to oppress black people or lock up japanese during WWII or to have children work dangerous jobs in factories. Sure the US *did* all of those things; but it wasn't central to it's stated belief system, at least not any more.

AH. So what say you about joining an organization and that organizaion changes what it does to somthing to which you object? Say you joined the KKK back when it was just a bunch of your white friends getting together and having poker night every friday. Then, some joker decides that he would rather burn down a bla ...

I realize this is Fark and reasonably discussion is pretty hard to have. Everything gravitates to extremes.

If the core of an organization changes such that acceptance of X is a fundamental requirement of belonging to the group; and you stay, then yes - in the absence of other evidence; I'd reasonably assume you support X.

The questions are:
1.) Is the support of child molestation a core requirement for belonging to the Catholic Church?
2.) Is there any evidence that this particular guy in the Catholic Church was against child molestation?

I'm not Catholic and I don't go to Church - but I know a lot of people who do. None of them are openly pro-child molestation. I don't believe that's part of the hiring criteria for priests. I don't immediately assume everyone who is a Catholic Priest thinks child molestation is awesome.

I don't know much about the KKK - I don't personally know anyone in the KKK. I've been taught that they were a radical group of racists who used extreme measures (like burning crosses and physical violence) to intimidate blacks from after the Civil War until something like the 50s or 60s. But I haven't looked into it myself. Assuming that is a realistic portrayal - and that a fundamental belief of the KKK is that it's cool to murder black people - I would assume someone who is in the KKK holds that belief unless I had reason to believe otherwise. If a KKK member was actively speaking at KKK meetings about how to promote 'white heritage' without hurting other people; I'd reasonably assume that particular guy does not hold the central belief of the group.

TL;DR

Unless someone can show me where the Catholic Church says they all support child molestation or something that suggests this guy did - in the absence of evidence I can only reasonably assume he does not support child molestation.

INeedAName: I don't know why I bothered coming in here. Those of you slandering or condemning the man and his religion are just as bad as those you hate. Grow up.

No, the people we hate support child molestation and HIV proliferation, we don't.

jj325: rbaron71: Let's keep the thread positive, folks. It's an important day.

It's an important day for people who believe in fairy tales. For a lot of us it's just another Sunday, and a good day to buy half price candy.

I got a 4-day weekend out of the deal - so it's pretty important for me :)

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Fark_Guy_Rob: If people really feel that by remaining a US citizen they are supporting all of the bad things the US has ever done - I think it'd be pretty trivial to do.

Poor analogy. The US is a democracy where the public can voice grievances and work to change US policy through voting. The Constitution doesn't read "the people in charge are the sole gatekeepers of Heaven and there's nothing you can do about it", and the President isn't declared infallible.

Try again.

I'm sure that was very comforting to any of the endless victims of atrocities inflicted by the US government.

Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm sure that was very comforting to any of the endless victims of atrocities inflicted by the US government.

It's not meant to be. It's a refutation of your false equivalence between leaving the catholic church in protest of their corruption versus renouncing US citizenship over their corruption.

Try again.

lilplatinum: I'm not a big fan of Soldiers or Republicans, so I don't join those groups. There is plenty to be ashamed about by belonging to America, but as I said above - unlike the Church, citizenship is kind of hard to switch.

YOu are not the brightest, are you now? You are not even backpedaling elegantly. A second ago you said the guy deserved cancer because he was member of a group you don't approve of. Now you are attacking a foreign culture because the zeitgeist 200 years ago wasn't pretty. And as for joining the military, I don't think you have the balls for it. You would rather be tied up to a tree, protesting nuclear reactors.

Fark_Guy_Rob: Unless someone can show me where the Catholic Church says they all support child molestation or something that suggests this guy did - in the absence of evidence I can only reasonably assume he does not support child molestation.

It's a core principle of the Catholic Church's teaching that the Church has jurisdiction over the clergy, and that they aren't accountable to secular governments. For that matter, it's "word of God" that democracy is a bad form of government, and that a strong monarchy or similar system should be advocated. Other core principles include denying access to contraceptives to poverty-stricken women, spreading false medical information about HIV and AIDS, not allowing women to teach, opposing divorce for domestic abuse victims, and discrimination against homosexuals.

jj325: rbaron71: Let's keep the thread positive, folks. It's an important day.

It's an important day for people who believe in fairy tales. For a lot of us it's just another Sunday, and a good day to buy half price candy.

The candy will be much cheaper tomorrow since stores will be trying to get rid of their larger-than-usual stock of it.

themeaningoflifeisnot: Good to know. And I'm sure that, consistent with your belief that the sins of the Church indelibly stain the character of its faithful, you refuse to associate with Catholics, sell to Catholics, or take money from Catholics.

Well I certainly don't let their priests near my kids.

Random Observation #23423425666: Religious people like using the words "folks" and "hate" A LOT

Kome: The candy will be much cheaper tomorrow since stores will be trying to get rid of their larger-than-usual stock of it.

I wonder how important a sales-day Easter is to retailers. Can it make or break a fiscal quarter, or is it barely a blip on their radar?

poorcku: [www.acf.hhs.gov image 372x461]


BUT THE CHURCH!!!!!

/you hypocrites. it was never about the children...

You are right, it wasn't about the children, it was about the systematic cover-up of the abuse and moving the rapey priests to new parishes and schools and victimizing a whole new set of young children.

If the Church Hierarchy did the right thing, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

If the Bishops and Archbishops took responsibility for their failings, instead of putting the responsibility on the gays, the hippies or the sexy alter boys,we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

If Cardinal Bernard Law took the honorable route and slit his wrists instead of being promoted to Rome, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

We all know there are rapey cops, teachers, coaches, Boy Scouts, youth group leaders, etc... but when they get caught, they get arrested. Priests on the other hand, get transferred.

Fark U: Random Observation #23423425666: Religious people like using the words "folks" and "hate" A LOT

Well to be fair, Jesus did say "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple.".

Gonz: What are you going to do between now and the day they throw six feet of dirt over you?

Right now I'm making blueberry muffins and banana bread

Kome:...The Catholic Church's most significant apology over our lifetimes has been apologizing to Galileo for punishing him hundreds of years ago for daring to speak scientific facts that contradicted the Bible. But yea, both are bad, so the Catholic Church should never be criticized for doing anything wrong, and in fact really shouldn't even bother attempting to fix or atone or repent or seek forgiveness for their mistakes. I mean, really, how silly would that be? Atonement, redemption, forgiveness? Since when are those a part of the Catholic Church? Oh wait...

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a practicing Catholic so I'm no expert on the matter, but the Catholic Church has also apologized to all the victims of paedophile priests and has recently adopted a policy of actively helping law enforcement agencies deal with the matter.

For the record, Galileo was not punished for the reasons you state. It's a moot point, but the RC Church does not practice Bible litteralism in the way US-based Evangelical churches do.

austin_millbarge: Just a hunch but I think this guy loves crucifixes.

[cmsimg.desmoinesregister.com image 604x465]

Reminds of this:

lilplatinum: Fark_Guy_Rob: At the very least, it's easy enough to leave the US where your day-to-day activities no longer directly support the US government. I live overseas; I'll pay nothing in income tax the US government and none of the various taxes like property tax or sales tax will go to the US government.

Being an ex-pat does not get rid of your tax burden, Uncle Sam still demands a share of money you make abroad unless you are poor.

Beyond that - it's not that hard to renounce US citizenship
(http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html)

It is not that hard to renounce US citizenship, it is fairly difficult to acquire a replacement citizenship- hence renunciation not being realistic for most people.

So long as my income is less than 95k USD - Uncle Sam won't see any of it. I wouldn't consider 95k per year 'poor'.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97130 , 00.html

I also wouldn't say it's *that* difficult to get another citizenship if you are determined. The key is to be willing to go to whatever country is handing out visas/work permits at the time. Once you are legally in a country, most of the time, it's just a waiting game until you can become a citizen. I don't know the details but I know Australia and Canada are the big destinations for people here (Ireland) and I know some of them are unskilled labour.

If you are skilled labour, particularly in certain fields - you really can go just about anywhere you want; so long as you can talk your way through a job interview.

capt.hollister: Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a practicing Catholic so I'm no expert on the matter, but the Catholic Church has also apologized to all the victims of paedophile priests and has recently adopted a policy of actively helping law enforcement agencies deal with the matter.

Not so much. They've adopted a policy of not doing anything that's going to get them bad press. But when the Belgian police seized evidence for an investigation into child rape, they tried everything they could to get that evidence destroyed.

Thank you everyone who said what I wanted to say. I find that the biggest opponents of the Catholic Church are those who have 0 experience with it. It is because of my Catholic education that I am so open minded the lack of religion/faith right now in my life is mostly due to the fact that I was taught to think for myself and question sources (ex: was taught that the Bible was written hundreds of years after things supposedly took place, PLUS was translated, so just take the message, don't take it literally.) Plus, while the Catholic Church may have specific messages that non-Catholics associate with it, you have to remember that it's run by people (with their own minds), so I never heard those messages growing up. I've never been taught not to use birth control, nor that homosexuality was wrong or any of that stuff.

fluffy2097: capt.hollister: Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a practicing Catholic so I'm no expert on the matter, but the Catholic Church has also apologized to all the victims of paedophile priests and has recently adopted a policy of actively helping law enforcement agencies deal with the matter.

They said they did this, but the deacon in charge of handling it turned out to be a pedophile.

/I seriously wish I was joking but I'm dead serious.

It's like a Catholic, child-rapey version of The Departed.

Bedstead Polisher: I've never been taught not to use birth control, nor that homosexuality was wrong or any of that stuff.

So you weren't in church when every priest in the UK was ordered by the Catholic hierarchy to read out a letter opposing the government's plans to allow gay marriage? You weren't paying attention when the Vatican put out a statement saying that condoms had small holes in them that allowed HIV to get through? You weren't listening when the Irish and Argentinian churches were campaigning to outlaw divorce, even in cases of domestic violence?

BurnShrike: david_gaithersburg: Let's keep in mind what's important here. Dozens of hate filled Farkers will spend today, tomorrow, and every day after that living in pure hate filled misery and loneliness.

And according to a thread from yesterday, most of them are also disgustingly fat. BONUS!

So vote Jesus?

.
.
Don't know about the Jesus thing, not into that stuff. But I do know that I dislike pompous know it all twats who are always pushing their atheist beliefs on everyone.

austin_millbarge: Just a hunch but I think this guy loves crucifixes.

[cmsimg.desmoinesregister.com image 604x465]

He probably does, but there's a good chance that those are presents from friends, relatives, and other well-wishers.
No, they probably won't help.

lilplatinum: INeedAName: I don't know why I bothered coming in here. Those of you slandering or condemning the man and his religion are just as bad as those you hate. Grow up.

No, the people we hate support child molestation and HIV proliferation, we don't.

Which is stuff that should be hated. But find me where this guy supported or engaged in those activities? Some Farkers need to learn that not all individuals agree with everything the organization they belong to does.

INeedAName: Which is stuff that should be hated. But find me where this guy supported or engaged in those activities? Some Farkers need to learn that not all individuals agree with everything the organization they belong to does.

So if he'd been a Grand Wizard of the KKK, you'd be OK with that?

Don't get me started on the Catholic church, but this guy sounds like a real class act. Never acted like he was better than others, told people he didn't know how heaven looked, said others prayers are just as effective as his. Led a great and happy life, and seemed much loved. I would have liked to have known him, he just sounded like a nice friendly helpful guy.

RIP Sir.