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(Yahoo)   Gay, lesbian, and bisexual Brigham Young University, make an "It gets better..{until you are excommunicated by your church, banned from your ward and disowned by your own family}" video   (news.yahoo.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Brigham Young University, Wausau, bisexuals, DePaul, The Lookout, lesbians, gays  
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8274 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Apr 2012 at 10:03 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-08 02:42:36 AM  

Johnny Savage: Cool. I was just asking. I had a good friend that was enticed (his words) into the community after college. He was miserable until he 'came out' to his friends that he wasn't gay. He married a chick about 5 years ago.


So he's one of those ex-gays i keep hearing about. If only people weren't trying to make the homosexual lifestyle feel so normative, innocent straight people wouldn't be getting forced to do it. Why do all of these homosexuals keep sucking my cock?
 
2012-04-08 02:55:22 AM  
Uncultured Farkers. Doesn't anyone know anything about Mormons?

From The Book of Mormon:

"When you're feeling certain feelings that just don't seem right, treat those pesky feelings like a reading light and turn them off."
 
2012-04-08 03:08:17 AM  

wedun: Johnny Savage: Cool. I was just asking. I had a good friend that was enticed (his words) into the community after college. He was miserable until he 'came out' to his friends that he wasn't gay. He married a chick about 5 years ago.

So he's one of those ex-gays i keep hearing about. If only people weren't trying to make the homosexual lifestyle feel so normative, innocent straight people wouldn't be getting forced to do it. Why do all of these homosexuals keep sucking my cock?


The real question that needs to be asked is whether you have to give the toaster back if somebody you recruit turns straight again.
 
2012-04-08 04:35:59 AM  
You know what makes the "It gets better" stuff true?

"Not giving a sh*t."

In fact, that's the answer to "It gets better." for a great deal of problems. People call you names because you're gay? Don't give a sh*t. People pick on you? Don't give a sh*t.

Still find yourself giving a sh*t?

Try harder.

This isn't me just being flippant, there are real problems for gay youth and organizations like the Mormon church cause or enhance a hell of a lot of them. Do I get mad when I see stuff like Prop 8? Yeah, in those cases, I give a sh*t. But on the day someone comes after me personally, on an individual level?

I'm 37 years old, and it hasn't happened yet. Not once. But if it DOES? I won't give a sh*t.
 
2012-04-08 04:43:34 AM  
niqnaq.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-04-08 04:57:15 AM  

Johnny Savage:
The problem with the campaign is that the vast majority of people (in general) don't give a damn what your sexual orientation is.


The problem has never been the "vast majority" the problem is, as always, the "vocal minority". The majority start off at "Does this in some, even remotely, possible way affect me? No. Then I don't care. Let the gays marry, let the TS's change their birth certs, who gives a shiat."

But they don't say that, they're silent. So instead we have a vocal minority running around largely unchallenged trying to enforce their opinions on everyone.
 
2012-04-08 04:58:53 AM  

Johnny Savage: coco ebert: That's the problem with the whole "It gets better" campaign. It often doesn't.

The problem with the campaign is that the vast majority of people (in general) don't give a damn what your sexual orientation is. It is even more pronounced amongst the people with whom you will associate upon 'coming out'.

It's pedantic biatching. If you're gay, be gay. It's not like you will have a hard time finding folks who will accept you.


Until you know someone who offs themselves due to the severe depression caused when your own family discards you and shuns you.

"Religion of peace" my ass.
 
2012-04-08 05:16:16 AM  

digitalpirate: runnenat: "74% of LGBT students at BYU have contemplated suicide. 24% have attempted sucide."

=[

This was hard to watch for me, I'm glad it got better at the end.

/pun not intended

Utah has the highest suicide rate in the US except for Alaska. It also consumes more antidepressants. It is also the home of the LDS church. This is not a coincidence.


Religion does more to f*ck people up than any other substance. I've never understood the stigma attached to being gay and have always had sincere sympathies to those that have the hide their true selves.

lohphat: Johnny Savage: coco ebert: That's the problem with the whole "It gets better" campaign. It often doesn't.

The problem with the campaign is that the vast majority of people (in general) don't give a damn what your sexual orientation is. It is even more pronounced amongst the people with whom you will associate upon 'coming out'.

It's pedantic biatching. If you're gay, be gay. It's not like you will have a hard time finding folks who will accept you.

Until you know someone who offs themselves due to the severe depression caused when your own family discards you and shuns you.

"Religion of peace" my ass.


They're all 'religions of peace' until you don't follow their rules or behave in a way that they have proscribed.
 
2012-04-08 05:36:39 AM  
Not agreeing to church teachings.... and going to a church University?

images.sodahead.com
 
2012-04-08 05:57:33 AM  

Descartes: Not agreeing to church teachings.... and going to a church University?

[images.sodahead.com image 304x350]


Indoctrination.
 
2012-04-08 07:15:05 AM  
Famously, in autumn 2010, Marlin Jensen (a lower ranking 'general authority' (GA) of the church) went to a mormon gay conference in California and offered love and support for gay members. He spoke about how the senior GA's - the prophet and apostles loved them.
a few short weeks later Boyd k Packer - an apostle of that church [possibly the next 'prophet' of the mormon church] spoke about the evil of 'the gays', and spoke so severely that his talk had to be edited for the written conference report in the church magazine (the ensign) to make his comments less inflammatory
This is the modern Mormon church and it is anti-gay
 
2012-04-08 08:00:28 AM  

furterfan: This is the modern Mormon church and it is anti-gay


Just saw that on the Yahoo comments for the article :)
 
2012-04-08 08:32:18 AM  
Oh c'mon, the LDS Church didn't even recognize black people (or let them join their church- I think) as being actual members of the human farking race from the death of Joseph Smith until well into the 1970's. They saw most minorities as being 'rebellious against God.'

So the fact that they're not so cool with the whole 'gay' thing doesn't really surprise me in the least farking bit.
 
2012-04-08 08:36:06 AM  
The LDS "church" only recognized blacks as human one ther marketing department could no longer maintain the marketing of blatant racism so sexual bigotry was the next bastion of motivating the sheep.
 
2012-04-08 08:39:02 AM  

mama's_tasty_foods: For those of you who are not LDS- why the hell would you ever move to Utah?


Because it is a farking beautiful state. Drive into the state from Arizona and drive to SLC. The Kanab area is red rock heaven. Then you're getting towards Zion and Bryce Canyon parks. Further up you've got snow capped mountains along the road for miles and miles. SLC is awesome. If you're into outdoor stuff at all, you'll be in heaven there. The amount of trails in Park City is insane. If you ski, Utah wins hands down.

/I don't live there
//But I would
///Having a good support network of non-Mormon friends there is a plus, though.
 
2012-04-08 08:44:19 AM  

lohphat: The LDS "church" only recognized blacks as human one ther marketing department could no longer maintain the marketing of blatant racism so sexual bigotry was the next bastion of motivating the sheep.


This is the same religion that only banned polygamy so Utah could become a state.

So yeah, abandoning beliefs for marketing purposes isn't a new thing with the LDS.
 
2012-04-08 09:01:23 AM  
This is why I converted to Shinto. There are no rules of conduct I pray and meditate in the morning to a goddess who saved the earth by dancing naked and on Christmas I get to eat fried chicken and sponge cake.
 
2012-04-08 09:04:04 AM  
Figures. Every time there is a story on a subject I actually feel qualified to speak on, it goes green 5 minutes after I walk out the door for work and I don't see it for ten hours. Now that it's too late...

I am gay. I was born into a Mormon family and raised in the church. I was a very devout member. I went to BYU. I attempted suicide while there. As long as I stayed a member of the church, It Got Worse. After coming out, my friends--member and non-member alike--were very supportive of me. The rest of the community seemed almost to want my blood. My parents nearly disowned me. My Bishop and Stake President pushed me into 'counseling' (reparative therapy) and gave constant reminders that I was not progressing quickly enough. After the rumors of why I wasn't going on a mission began to circulate through the ward people actually shielded their children from me in the halls. It wasn't until I was able to let go of the church that things actually started to get better.

The irony, of course, was that I embraced the church so fully because, upon realization of my sexuality, I felt completely separated from the only community I knew. The church is not kind to homosexuals. The entire religion is predicated on the idea of eternal marriage, and homosexuality has no place in it. It is an aberration, in their view. Something to be purged. After throwing myself fully into the church, I began searching for ways I could comply with the teachings that did not seem applicable to my life. I attended social functions and, rather than looking for someone with whom I could have a real and earnest relationship, looked for someone I felt I could convince couldn't do better than me, and with whom I could tolerate to live. At the time it seemed prudent; to this day I am ashamed that I would ever have considered such a thing.

Coming out was the hardest thing I have ever done. It sounds so cliched, but it really was. It did, however, set me down a new path. My friends were also quite devout, and they genuinely believed in the church, unlike myself, just pretending in an attempt to fill a void. When I came out, they did not talk (much) about God and Jesus and the Scriptures, but instead about their friend, and what a burden he had carried, and how they loved and cared about him. But they are the exception. I can say with certainty that a program like It Gets Better would have done me a great service, and with that encouragement from strangers who nevertheless understood my situation I may never have tried to end my life.

TL;DR: Being openly gay at BYU is a bad idea. Being openly gay as a Mormon is a worse idea. It doesn't fit the theology, and they will try to get rid of you.

/end incoherent rambling
 
2012-04-08 09:14:09 AM  

Marshall Willenholly: As a member of the LGBT community, I have to tell myself several times a day that hopefully things will get better. Otherwise I end up in a downward spiral of depression that doesn't end well. So any time someone else comes along and says that it will (probably) get better, I very much appreciate it.


Agree
 
2012-04-08 09:17:07 AM  

fergalicious: /end incoherent rambling


I know a gay couple here in SF (no wai!) where one was a devout Mormon, got married, had kids, then came out. He got custody of the kids who love him dearly and he has been with his partner for 20 years now. It's all really good. He left the church and his kids are his biggest advocate.

On the othe rand I had a close fried kill himself after years of depression after his family discarded him. In that case it was the Catholic church that poisoned his own mother to hang up the phone saying she didn't care when they informed her he was dead.

I'm still angry at them 4 years hence of destroying a talented man's life due to dogmatic bigotry and hatered so deep you reject your own son.

I rented a room rears ago from a guy who ran the local chapter of "Affirmation" the counseling group of gay Mormons and I sat in one night at a meeting and was appalled at the stories.

You have my sympathy of being cast out from your culture you valued as it does have its positive traits but not at that price of destruction and intolerance. You can be a good, forthright, upstanding person without all that BS.
 
2012-04-08 09:23:42 AM  

Silverstaff: He never renounced his faith, but his politics and choice of bride basically meant he burned a lot of bridges back home.


Never hesitate to burn a bridge if it leads to hell.
 
2012-04-08 09:29:59 AM  

fergalicious: Figures. Every time there is a story on a subject I actually feel qualified to speak on, it goes green 5 minutes after I walk out the door for work and I don't see it for ten hours. Now that it's too late...

I am gay. I was born into a Mormon family and raised in the church. I was a very devout member. I went to BYU. I attempted suicide while there. As long as I stayed a member of the church, It Got Worse. After coming out, my friends--member and non-member alike--were very supportive of me. The rest of the community seemed almost to want my blood. My parents nearly disowned me. My Bishop and Stake President pushed me into 'counseling' (reparative therapy) and gave constant reminders that I was not progressing quickly enough. After the rumors of why I wasn't going on a mission began to circulate through the ward people actually shielded their children from me in the halls. It wasn't until I was able to let go of the church that things actually started to get better.

The irony, of course, was that I embraced the church so fully because, upon realization of my sexuality, I felt completely separated from the only community I knew. The church is not kind to homosexuals. The entire religion is predicated on the idea of eternal marriage, and homosexuality has no place in it. It is an aberration, in their view. Something to be purged. After throwing myself fully into the church, I began searching for ways I could comply with the teachings that did not seem applicable to my life. I attended social functions and, rather than looking for someone with whom I could have a real and earnest relationship, looked for someone I felt I could convince couldn't do better than me, and with whom I could tolerate to live. At the time it seemed prudent; to this day I am ashamed that I would ever have considered such a thing.

Coming out was the hardest thing I have ever done. It sounds so cliched, but it really was. It did, however, set me down a new path. My frien ...


It sounds like it did Get Better for you, but not because as that passive voice phrase seems to imply, things just magically change, but because you are are a person of extraordinary inner strength and courage. Glad you didn't succeed in ending your life, the world needs more like you.
 
2012-04-08 09:36:04 AM  
I'm a BYU graduate.

While I was there, I met and befriended many students who experienced Same-Gender Attraction or "SGA." For the record, the Church does not consider having homosexual feelings to be sinful. You can be gay and still be a member of the Church in good standing. However, acting on those feelings is considered a serious sin. So yes, students are allowed to be open about their sexual orientation while attending BYU, they just can't engage in homosexual behavior.

Yes, in the LDS community there still is a strong social stigma against homosexuality, but that's because it's widely misunderstood. At least for my generation (I graduated in 2010), we understand that sexual orientation is an innate characteristic, not the result of a personal choice. I've seen that video featured in the article reposted by many BYU friends on Facebook, and they all embraced the video as uplifting and conducive to an important discussion.

What won't help the discussion is the poisonous rhetoric and vitriol coming out of the more radical elements of the issue. In 2008, following the passage of Proposition 8 in California (I was CA when it was on the ballot and at BYU when it passed) thousands of "marriage equality" demonstrators swarmed outside the LDS temple in LA (and other places) carrying signs with hateful messages and shouting epithets at peaceful church-goers. I think those incidents did nothing to further the discussion, they just confirmed peoples' fears.

If we want to cure public ignorance and foster understanding, we'll have to do it in a respectful, even-handed way.
 
2012-04-08 09:45:08 AM  

sonarbison:

If we want to cure public ignorance and foster understanding, we'll have to do it in a respectful, even-handed way.


whatamireading.jpg

Double-standard much?

The LDS "church" spearheaded and funded an interstate campagn to deny civil rights to a minority. Equal protection and due process are enshrined in the constitution to protect people from mob rule. There's a reason liberty shouldn't be the subject of popular vote otherwise anti-miscegenation laws would still be on the books in 13 states if the popular vote was heeded.

Your "peaceful churchgoers'" tithing supported this attack on freedom so when they got a little taste of intolerance perhaps they got a taste of their own medicine.

Or are they simply that thin-skinned?
 
2012-04-08 09:49:37 AM  

fergalicious: TL;DR: Being openly gay at BYU is a bad idea. Being openly gay as a Mormon is a worse idea. It doesn't fit the theology, and they will try to get rid of you.

/end incoherent rambling


It's definitely not incoherent rambling. I'll never understand these camps, programs, and "therapists" who try to "fix" homosexuals.

sonarbison: What won't help the discussion is the poisonous rhetoric and vitriol coming out of the more radical elements of the issue. In 2008, following the passage of Proposition 8 in California (I was CA when it was on the ballot and at BYU when it passed) thousands of "marriage equality" demonstrators swarmed outside the LDS temple in LA (and other places) carrying signs with hateful messages and shouting epithets at peaceful church-goers. I think those incidents did nothing to further the discussion, they just confirmed peoples' fears.


Yes, why didn't gay people just shut up when a very organized church pushed millions of dollars into the state (along with doorknockers) to deny gay people of civil rights? Why couldn't they be respectful of the people who think they should be second-class citizens?
 
2012-04-08 09:59:40 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: We need a campaign like that for nerds.


It's called "The Internet"
 
2012-04-08 10:04:14 AM  

Jim_Callahan: To be fair, unshackled human sexuality also turned out to be a terrible, terrible idea. Because apparently free love is more like free rides for STIs.


Thank you for giving a valid counter point without injecting the boogieman or voodoo into it.
Moderation.
Then again, it was religion, specifically one that taught unshackled human breeding to the point of over population.
 
2012-04-08 10:05:36 AM  

lohphat: The LDS "church" spearheaded and funded an interstate campagn to deny civil rights to a minority. Equal protection and due process are enshrined in the constitution to protect people from mob rule. There's a reason liberty shouldn't be the subject of popular vote otherwise anti-miscegenation laws would still be on the books in 13 states if the popular vote was heeded.

Your "peaceful churchgoers'" tithing supported this attack on freedom so when they got a little taste of intolerance perhaps they got a taste of their own medicine.

Or are they simply that thin-skinned?


Secret Polish Boyfriend: Yes, why didn't gay people just shut up when a very organized church pushed millions of dollars into the state (along with doorknockers) to deny gay people of civil rights? Why couldn't they be respectful of the people who think they should be second-class citizens?


You don't get it. The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. The reason they oppose same-sex marriage isn't because of animosity towards gays or a desire to "take away their rights", it's because they don't want to be legally obligated to accept behavior that they consider to be deviant and immoral. People oppose same-sex marriage for the same reason they'd oppose legalizing marriage between (sterile) incestuous couples.

Instead of attacking people, why don't you try listening to them instead? I don't agree with your stance on this issue, but I understand the reasoning behind it (which is why I don't get angry over it.) If you really want to understand this issue, you're going to have to take into account what really motivates the other side. Assuming terrible motivations on their part may make you feel righteous, but it does nothing to help further the discussion...
 
2012-04-08 10:18:29 AM  

sonarbison: You don't get it. The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. The reason they oppose same-sex marriage isn't because of animosity towards gays or a desire to "take away their rights", it's because they don't want to be legally obligated to accept behavior that they consider to be deviant and immoral. People oppose same-sex marriage for the same reason they'd oppose legalizing marriage between (sterile) incestuous couples


I'm sorry but I'm so sick of this excuse. Try reading up on some history and what you just said was practically the same excuse people used when they try to ban interracial marriage a half-century ago and you'll see how out of touch this mindset really is.

"I don't hate black people. Just the thought of a black man and a white woman marrying makes me sick and I shouldn't be legally obligated to accept it."
 
2012-04-08 10:20:28 AM  

sonarbison: If you really want to understand this issue, you're going to have to take into account what really motivates the other side.


What really motivates the other side is they think that gays are icky and that they don't like them and use religion as an excuse to bully them.

Simple as that and definitely no need to make this into a complex issue.
 
2012-04-08 10:22:48 AM  

Mrtraveler01: Johnny Savage: If you differ at all from the mean, you will be scrutinized. Get over it.

How about instead of just "get over it", how about doing something that will minimize how much people will be scrutinized about it in the future?
What's the big deal? Also, why is this worth biatching about?


He's biatching about people biatching. It's meta.
 
2012-04-08 10:22:54 AM  

sonarbison: The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue.


You're implying that those that see it as a civil rights issue DON'T see it as a moral issue (and by implication that only religiously conservative people can have moral convictions). Same-sex marriage advocates see it as both.
 
2012-04-08 10:24:15 AM  

sonarbison:
You don't get it. The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. The reason they oppose same-sex marriage isn't because of animosity towards gays or a desire to "take away their rights", it's because they don't want to be legally obligated to accept behavior that they consider to be deviant and immoral.


They said the same thing about interracial marriage.

Keep your moral beliefs out of the legislature. Mind your own business.

So if they feel that Judiasm is immoral that's ok to pass laws against too?

What point of freedom and liberty -- the same concepts that allow that cult to exist in the first place -- apply to everyone do they not understand?

"Oh those gays are intolerant of our bigotry!"

Give me a break.
 
2012-04-08 10:31:13 AM  

sonarbison: I'm a BYU graduate.

While I was there, I met and befriended many students who experienced Same-Gender Attraction or "SGA." For the record, the Church does not consider having homosexual feelings to be sinful. You can be gay and still be a member of the Church in good standing. However, acting on those feelings is considered a serious sin. So yes, students are allowed to be open about their sexual orientation while attending BYU, they just can't engage in homosexual behavior.


If we want to cure public ignorance and foster understanding, we should start by using real words. SGA is not a real thing. Homosexuality is a real thing. Same-Gender/Sex Attraction is a term made up by by people trying to push a specific agenda. It allows them to ignore the issues of sexual orientation and gender. It allows someone to talk about a homosexual as though they were 'almost' normal. "Oh, Steve is a perfectly ordinary guy who just happens to be attracted to members of the same gender." It allows marginalization of gays under the pretext that they can live a normal straight life with a minor handicap, not unlike how an amputee may have a fake leg. Having spent nearly two years in reparative therapy, I can personally vouch for just how much bunk it is. Of the five therapists I had, three did not seem to even think that homosexuality was a real thing. The other two refused to use the term SSA.

The three were convinced that all of my problems stemmed from getting along too well with my father. I mistook feelings of paternal affection for sexual affections, and got confused. But I don't get along well with my father, and never have. So it became about how I craved affection and acceptance from an older man. But I like slightly younger guys. Well, that's because you want to fill the paternal role for someone else. On and on it went. At no point did any of those three ever allow me to suggest that I might just actually want to have sex with men and not with women without shooting that idea down and suggesting that I was just misguided.

Yes, in the LDS community there still is a strong social stigma against homosexuality, but that's because it's widely misunderstood. At least for my generation (I graduated in 2010), we understand that sexual orientation is an innate characteristic, not the result of a personal choice.

I agree wholeheartedly that homosexuality is still widely misunderstood within the church. I also accept that newer generations are increasingly aware that homosexuality is innate. The church, however, still maintains that homosexuals be held to a different standard than heterosexual members, and is using its influence and money to enact legislation compelling their religious doctrines onto society as a whole. A person who willingly participates in the church, knowing it's doctrines and practices, can be held to whatever standard of behaviour the church chooses. A person who is not a member of the church cannot be held to their standards, and yet they insist on trying to make everyone adhere to their beliefs and practices. That is not acceptable, and is to be condemned.

I've seen that video featured in the article reposted by many BYU friends on Facebook, and they all embraced the video as uplifting and conducive to an important discussion.

While laudable that they are discussing it on Facebook, the discussion is not happening within the church, where it must if it is to have any real effect. The prophet has spoken, God has revealed His will, and you must obey. You cannot be a member in good standing and claim that God's revelations through His prophets are wrong. It will be a couple of generations before this is changed, much as it took strong social pressure and a fundamental shift in general viewpoints to open the Priesthood to males of all races.

What won't help the discussion is the poisonous rhetoric and vitriol coming out of the more radical elements of the issue. In 2008, following the passage of Proposition 8 in California (I was CA when it was on the ballot and at BYU when it passed) thousands of "marriage equality" demonstrators swarmed outside the LDS temple in LA (and other places) carrying signs with hateful messages and shouting epithets at peaceful church-goers. I think those incidents did nothing to further the discussion, they just confirmed peoples' fears.

I concede that many protesters overstepped the bounds of peaceful protest and dissent, and while I understand their behaviour, I do not condone it. Will you likewise concede that it is wrong for a religious minority to unethically enact 'morality' legislation designed to marginalize a minority, denying them basic rights, and to do so under the pretext that they still love and care about that group?
 
2012-04-08 10:36:17 AM  

sonarbison: lohphat: The LDS "church" spearheaded and funded an interstate campagn to deny civil rights to a minority. Equal protection and due process are enshrined in the constitution to protect people from mob rule. There's a reason liberty shouldn't be the subject of popular vote otherwise anti-miscegenation laws would still be on the books in 13 states if the popular vote was heeded.

Your "peaceful churchgoers'" tithing supported this attack on freedom so when they got a little taste of intolerance perhaps they got a taste of their own medicine.

Or are they simply that thin-skinned?

Secret Polish Boyfriend: Yes, why didn't gay people just shut up when a very organized church pushed millions of dollars into the state (along with doorknockers) to deny gay people of civil rights? Why couldn't they be respectful of the people who think they should be second-class citizens?

You don't get it. The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. The reason they oppose same-sex marriage isn't because of animosity towards gays or a desire to "take away their rights", it's because they don't want to be legally obligated to accept behavior that they consider to be deviant and immoral. People oppose same-sex marriage for the same reason they'd oppose legalizing marriage between (sterile) incestuous couples.

Instead of attacking people, why don't you try listening to them instead? I don't agree with your stance on this issue, but I understand the reasoning behind it (which is why I don't get angry over it.) If you really want to understand this issue, you're going to have to take into account what really motivates the other side. Assuming terrible motivations on their part may make you feel righteous, but it does nothing to help further the discussion...


While it's true that there are many people who oppose gay marriage who are not hateful bigots, the majority of evangelicals and Mormons clearly are. Look on the comments section of any political website thread, or yahoo or youtube. The people most virulently opposed to marriage equality are not shy about their disgust of the "perversion" and "sin" of homosexuality, and will not hesitate to oppose anti-gay employment discrimination laws or talk of gay soldiers raping straight ones in the shower or talk about legalized pedophilia or bestiality being next. How do you react to that level of hatred, and how is "furthering the discussion" even possible?
 
2012-04-08 10:37:24 AM  
Marriage is a civil issue as it materially affects the property and visitation rights of two consenting adults. If you don't want to recognize it in your cult then fine, practice your bigotry on your own time and place. Same-gender marriage isn't forcing your church to change anything other than to allow people to be happy in a pluralistic society which ironically allows your cult to exist in the first place.

If you cared so much about morality then first outlaw divorce and adultery and imprison those found guilty. Also annul childless marriages, but don't think attacking the freedoms of others won't come back in your face.

If popular votes is all it takes, then you've failed the comprehension test of what a constitution exists for: to protect the minority from the majority. E.g. There's no reason to have an Amendment to protect popular speech. it is the protection of the unpopular and truly oppressed that's important.

And no, having to accept that gays are human and have the right to marry and love another adult is not oppression just as having a black neighbor or boss isn't oppression.
 
2012-04-08 11:01:56 AM  

sonarbison: You don't get it. The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. The reason they oppose same-sex marriage isn't because of animosity towards gays or a desire to "take away their rights", it's because they don't want to be legally obligated to accept behavior that they consider to be deviant and immoral. People oppose same-sex marriage for the same reason they'd oppose legalizing marriage between (sterile) incestuous couples.


That's the sad thing; I have listened and sadly still have to listen to wharrgarbl like this. "Gay is equivalent to incest, or bestiality, or polygamy," or "it's a moral issue," or "I shouldn't have to accept..." You don't have to accept. You can preach that it's sin. You can have any private belief you want. However, once you take an issue into the public sphere, it's rather immature to complain because people disagree with you (even if it's vehement disagreement).

Let me toss another idea out to you: if we "listened", would that change anything? Would the LDS church not spend millions of dollars and countless man-hours to limit human rights? What on Earth would compel or encourage me to listen to you anymore? What I think you are asking for is "why don't you sit down and listen to me tell you why certain people should have their rights limited, and then we can go about our business oppressing people?" It's not like fundies are prepared to have rational discussions and make compromises; for every person who will accept some sort of civil partnership, there are many more who want to push gays back into closets, deny women healthcare deemed appropriate by doctors, push their religion into education and other public institutions, and redefine science to include nonsense.

Finally, let's clarify something about civil rights: no one thinks anything they are opposed to is a civil right. Civil rights are about treating people equally, equitably, and fairly, even if you don't want to do so.

In my lifetime, I've seen slow, steady progress toward a better society. I have yet to see institutions burn. I have yet to see any indications of the downfall of mankind. Sadly, I've also seen some very scared, very confused people who want to remake society into something more comfortable for themselves, regardless of the cost to society and other people.
 
2012-04-08 11:09:31 AM  

sonarbison: I'm a BYU graduate.

While I was there, I met and befriended many students who experienced Same-Gender Attraction or "SGA." For the record, the Church does not consider having homosexual feelings to be sinful. You can be gay and still be a member of the Church in good standing. However, acting on those feelings is considered a serious sin. So yes, students are allowed to be open about their sexual orientation while attending BYU, they just can't engage in homosexual behavior.

Yes, in the LDS community there still is a strong social stigma against homosexuality, but that's because it's widely misunderstood. At least for my generation (I graduated in 2010), we understand that sexual orientation is an innate characteristic, not the result of a personal choice. I've seen that video featured in the article reposted by many BYU friends on Facebook, and they all embraced the video as uplifting and conducive to an important discussion.

What won't help the discussion is the poisonous rhetoric and vitriol coming out of the more radical elements of the issue. In 2008, following the passage of Proposition 8 in California (I was CA when it was on the ballot and at BYU when it passed) thousands of "marriage equality" demonstrators swarmed outside the LDS temple in LA (and other places) carrying signs with hateful messages and shouting epithets at peaceful church-goers. I think those incidents did nothing to further the discussion, they just confirmed peoples' fears.

If we want to cure public ignorance and foster understanding, we'll have to do it in a respectful, even-handed way.


The protesters at the temple aren't the only ones engaging in "poisonous rhetoric and vitriol". The Church claims to accept gays and love gays (as long as they don't participate in icky gay sex) and then when members aren't in the public eye anymore use epithets, talk about HOMOSEXUALS as if they have some sort of horrifying, catching disease, and say enlightening things like "So and so is a lesbian...one night with a real man like me would cure her of that, har de har har!" (Yes, I've heard that multiple times).

You claim that up and coming members realize that sexual preference is innate yet still believe they shouldn't act on those impulses? Anyone who believes that is worse, IMO, than someone who just blindly hates because they KNOW better and still think it's ok to relegate gays to second class citizen level. You think gay sex is immoral behavior and it's ok to legislate against? I think denying citizens of this country the same rights as others immoral, and disgusting, and I can't believe this type of bullshiat is alive and well in 2012.
 
2012-04-08 11:31:20 AM  
Next up: why not allowing me to own slaves oppresses my beliefs.
 
2012-04-08 11:46:27 AM  

sonarbison: The pro-traditional marriage crowd


Prop 8 was the first time in human history that Mormons could ever be referred to by that phrase.
 
2012-04-08 11:57:29 AM  

sonarbison: lohphat: The LDS "church" spearheaded and funded an interstate campagn to deny civil rights to a minority. Equal protection and due process are enshrined in the constitution to protect people from mob rule. There's a reason liberty shouldn't be the subject of popular vote otherwise anti-miscegenation laws would still be on the books in 13 states if the popular vote was heeded.

Your "peaceful churchgoers'" tithing supported this attack on freedom so when they got a little taste of intolerance perhaps they got a taste of their own medicine.

Or are they simply that thin-skinned?

Secret Polish Boyfriend: Yes, why didn't gay people just shut up when a very organized church pushed millions of dollars into the state (along with doorknockers) to deny gay people of civil rights? Why couldn't they be respectful of the people who think they should be second-class citizens?

You don't get it. The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. The reason they oppose same-sex marriage isn't because of animosity towards gays or a desire to "take away their rights", it's because they don't want to be legally obligated to accept behavior that they consider to be deviant and immoral. People oppose same-sex marriage for the same reason they'd oppose legalizing marriage between (sterile) incestuous couples.

Instead of attacking people, why don't you try listening to them instead? I don't agree with your stance on this issue, but I understand the reasoning behind it (which is why I don't get angry over it.) If you really want to understand this issue, you're going to have to take into account what really motivates the other side. Assuming terrible motivations on their part may make you feel righteous, but it does nothing to help further the discussion...



The "pro-traditional Jim Crow" crowd didn't see letting blacks vote, or go to their schools, or eat in their restaurants as a civil rights issue either (hell, listen to Ron Paul on the Civil Rights act of 1964 and you realize many of them STILL don't) but they were wrong, and many of them used the same psuedo-religious justifications for their actions as well.

Let me put this as bluntly as possible: if a religious person's objection to a civil law is a purely moral one, ie it does not harm them personally in any tangible way, then they have no business objecting to it. That's the two-edged sword that is the Establishment Clause of the first Amendment. No one has any right to force you to worship or believe anything you don't want to, but you have no right to force your beliefs on anyone else either.

Given the history of the early Mormon martyrs, who were lynched simply because other people objected to their beliefs, the LDS church especially should understand and appreciate that
 
2012-04-08 12:12:23 PM  

SpookyEyes: sonarbison: I'm a BYU graduate.

While I was there, I met and befriended many students who experienced Same-Gender Attraction or "SGA." For the record, the Church does not consider having homosexual feelings to be sinful. You can be gay and still be a member of the Church in good standing. However, acting on those feelings is considered a serious sin. So yes, students are allowed to be open about their sexual orientation while attending BYU, they just can't engage in homosexual behavior.

Yes, in the LDS community there still is a strong social stigma against homosexuality, but that's because it's widely misunderstood. At least for my generation (I graduated in 2010), we understand that sexual orientation is an innate characteristic, not the result of a personal choice. I've seen that video featured in the article reposted by many BYU friends on Facebook, and they all embraced the video as uplifting and conducive to an important discussion.

What won't help the discussion is the poisonous rhetoric and vitriol coming out of the more radical elements of the issue. In 2008, following the passage of Proposition 8 in California (I was CA when it was on the ballot and at BYU when it passed) thousands of "marriage equality" demonstrators swarmed outside the LDS temple in LA (and other places) carrying signs with hateful messages and shouting epithets at peaceful church-goers. I think those incidents did nothing to further the discussion, they just confirmed peoples' fears.

If we want to cure public ignorance and foster understanding, we'll have to do it in a respectful, even-handed way.

The protesters at the temple aren't the only ones engaging in "poisonous rhetoric and vitriol". The Church claims to accept gays and love gays (as long as they don't participate in icky gay sex) and then when members aren't in the public eye anymore use epithets, talk about HOMOSEXUALS as if they have some sort of horrifying, catching disease, and say enlightening things like "So and so ...


To be fair that has been the position of most mainline Christian churches too. Why do you think so many Catholic priests ordained in the 50's and 60's were gay? Celibacy gave them a convenient way to never have to deal with their sexuality. The pedophilia problem the Church has now comes, in large part from the fact that the "gay liberation" movement of the 70's led to that stream of recruits drying up, and a Church desperate for vocations, letting people through seminary they would have "section 8'ed" out in years past
 
2012-04-08 12:29:12 PM  
I grew up Mormon, and believe me it's no picnic for a skeptic. The pressure to believe and conform is tremendous. Looking back (I'm in my 30's now) I can see how badly it screwed me up as a kid and is still impacting my life to this day. I can't imagine how difficult it would be if were gay as well. All religion is a poisonous mind-trap, but the Mormon strain is particularly virulent.

Incidentally, my cousin is gay and was expelled from BYU one semester before graduation. They pressured him to reveal the identity of other gay students (and implied that he might not be expelled if he did) but he refused to be their snitch and got the boot.
 
2012-04-08 12:30:19 PM  

sonarbison: You don't get it. The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. The reason they oppose same-sex marriage isn't because of animosity towards gays or a desire to "take away their rights", it's because they don't want to be legally obligated to accept behavior that they consider to be deviant and immoral. People oppose same-sex marriage for the same reason they'd oppose legalizing marriage between (sterile) incestuous couples.

Instead of attacking people, why don't you try listening to them instead? I don't agree with your stance on this issue, but I understand the reasoning behind it (which is why I don't get angry over it.) If you really want to understand this issue, you're going to have to take into account what really motivates the other side. Assuming terrible motivations on their part may make you feel righteous, but it does nothing to help further the discussion...


I have listened. I've listened as many of the parishioners in the churches I grew up in ranted about the immorality of homosexuality and how people like me were leading to the decline of western civilization. I've listened as respected religious leaders proclaimed that if God didn't destroy America for tolerating homosexuality, He'd have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah. I've listened when fellow students at my Christian college argued that the proper interpretation of Scripture meant implementing Old Testament Civil Law as the law of the land, including, and especially, executing gay people. I've listened as the respected elder at the church I grew up in, the respected elder who was also a county government attorney, stated that it would be more merciful for God to just kill gay people so they couldn't keep on sinning.

Don't pretend that the problem isn't that we're not listening to you enough. I've listened to religious conservatives who are against gay rights long enough to know exactly what you believe and what you think about me. It's a miracle given the environment that I grew up in that I don't hate myself and have so little baggage, because all I heard all of my life was how much I'm an abomination.
 
2012-04-08 12:34:44 PM  

revrendjim: digitalpirate: runnenat: "74% of LGBT students at BYU have contemplated suicide. 24% have attempted sucide."

=[

This was hard to watch for me, I'm glad it got better at the end.

/pun not intended

Utah has the highest suicide rate in the US except for Alaska. It also consumes more antidepressants. It is also the home of the LDS church. This is not a coincidence.

Utah also has the highest per-capita rate of paying for online porn.

/he-they pay for it


They pay for our sins so we dont have to.
 
2012-04-08 12:43:41 PM  
Wasn't Jesus all about unconditional love?

As an atheist, sometimes I want to become a Christian to show them how it's done. As Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

But then again, Mormons aren't real Christians, right? Or is that treating them like second-class citizens?

Oh...wait...
 
2012-04-08 12:45:59 PM  

Johnny Savage: coco ebert: That's the problem with the whole "It gets better" campaign. It often doesn't.

The problem with the campaign is that the vast majority of people (in general) don't give a damn what your sexual orientation is. It is even more pronounced amongst the people with whom you will associate upon 'coming out'.

It's pedantic biatching. If you're gay, be gay. It's not like you will have a hard time finding folks who will accept you.


That is precisely the point of the campaign. It's aimed at pre-18 students that are bullied in their schools. The limited scope of the campaign is to convince those kids to not commit suicide. If they just wait until adulthood, they will encounter a world that is just like you described: a world where they can live their lives the way the want and no one will care.

In school, many children do care--and they bully. The bullied queer kids need hope.
 
2012-04-08 12:58:46 PM  

Johnny Savage: I had a good friend that was enticed (his words) into the community after college.


Well, blowjobs can be very enticing.
 
2012-04-08 01:09:11 PM  

clyph: Johnny Savage: I had a good friend that was enticed (his words) into the community after college.

Well, blowjobs can be very enticing.


40% of homosexurals are born that way, the other 60% are sucked into it.

/i keed, i keed
//not my joke
 
2012-04-08 01:23:52 PM  

sonarbison: You don't get it. The pro-traditional marriage crowd does not see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. The reason they oppose same-sex marriage isn't because of animosity towards gays or a desire to "take away their rights", it's because they don't want to be legally obligated to accept behavior that they consider to be deviant and immoral. People oppose same-sex marriage for the same reason they'd oppose legalizing marriage between (sterile) incestuous couples.

Instead of attacking people, why don't you try listening to them instead? I don't agree with your stance on this issue, but I understand the reasoning behind it (which is why I don't get angry over it.) If you really want to understand this issue, you're going to have to take into account what really motivates the other side. Assuming terrible motivations on their part may make you feel righteous, but it does nothing to help further the discussion...



You don't get it. The pro-Nuremburg Laws crowd doesn't see getting rid of Jews as bigotry. It's a national security issue.
 
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