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(CNN)   Think the NRA is just about guns? Think again   (cnn.com) divider line 316
    More: Obvious, NRA, American Legislative Exchange Council, state legislators, McCain-Feingold, campaign finance reform, David Keene, martin case, American Conservative Union  
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9506 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Apr 2012 at 9:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-07 08:47:36 PM
The voter fraud fraud

Indeed, between 2000 and 2007, there were 32,299 UFO sightings in the United States, 352 deaths caused by lightning, but only nine cases of voter impersonation, according to a great new infographic by Craiglist founder Craig Newmark.

Yet conservatives continue to hype the extremely rare occurrence of election fraud as if it were something that happens every day and is somehow responsible for the election of Obama and Democratic candidates across the map. And there is evidence that they've been successful in pushing this fact-free narrative among the broader public. In 2009, Peter Dreier and Christopher Martin of Occidental College studied the media coverage of ACORN during the 2008 election and concluded:

82.8% of the stories failed to mention that actual voter fraud is very rare

80.3% of the stories failed to mention that ACORN was reporting registration irregularities to authorities, as required by law

85.1% of the stories about ACORN failed to note that ACORN was acting to stop incidents of registration problems by its (mostly temporary) employees when it became aware of these problems

95.8% of the stories failed to provide deeper context, especially efforts by Republican Party officials to use allegations of "voter fraud" to dampen voting by low‐income and minority Americans, including the firing of U.S. Attorneys who refused to cooperate with the politicization of voter-fraud accusations-firings that ultimately led to the resignation of U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales

The real story in 2012 is how the myth of voter fraud has been advanced by Republicans to justify new voting restrictions in more than a dozen states, which could disenfranchise up to 5 million voters on Election Day, according to the Brennan Center for Justice. That's a whole lot of casualties in response to a few bad actors.
 
2012-04-07 08:50:22 PM

Hobodeluxe: The voter fraud fraud...


Damn liberal lamestream MSM media
 
2012-04-07 08:51:31 PM

GAT_00: violentsalvation: I just bought a 5 year membership about a week ago. They are supposed to send me a hat and a bumper sticker or something. I decided to join because they are doing good work in Illinois and hopefully they target California and NY soon too. (target, lol, right-wing hidden messages!) I wish they would keep it to just guns though.

*Threadjack*

So, I've been looking at crime rates against a binary variable of yes/no concealed carry laws. I ended up grouping the states by OMB region to make things more manageable, and I tested from 1991-2009. It found significance at the 5% level for an area covering about 2/3 of the US, showing that for most of the country, concealed carry laws did make those areas safer. Three regions it did not show that.

OMB Region V - Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio and Wisconsin - where the test was not significant at all, so no conclusions.
OMB Region VII - Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska - where it was just below 5% significance, but showed that CC slightly increased crime
OMB Region IX - Arizona, California, Hawaii and Nevada - same as Region VII, but even weaker significance and less crime increase.

Basically, it showed that Illinois and California shouldn't legalize CC. I don't know why those regions failed the test. But for most of the country, I must concede that CC does seem to reduce crime. I still think that we simply accept a shooting rampage happening once a month as a consequence is utterly wrong.

*Threadjack off*


ANOVA? SPSS?
 
2012-04-07 08:57:45 PM

revrendjim: ANOVA? SPSS?


SPSS. I hadn't actually run a standard ANOVA, and technically I can't. Half of the regions aren't normally distributed. The results are non-parametric correlations, Spearman's and Kendall's.

So even with non-parametric tests, it came out significant for majority at 1%. That says a lot too.
 
2012-04-07 09:15:23 PM
I like guns.

Fu(k the NRA
 
2012-04-07 09:34:55 PM
If the ACLU defended the 2nd amendment, the NRA wouldn't exist as a political entity.

Just saying.
 
2012-04-07 09:36:17 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Hobodeluxe: The voter fraud fraud...

Damn liberal lamestream MSM media


We have to prevent a million votes to save a vote.
 
2012-04-07 09:37:36 PM
We get it. He's black.
 
2012-04-07 09:38:18 PM

dahmers love zombie: If the NRA was simply a rabidly pro-gun organization, I'd be more interested in joining.

If they were a sanely pro-gun organization which lobbied against the majority of gun restrictions, but didn't freak out about logical stuff like instant checks and denying gun rights to felons, I'd be MUCH more interested in joining.

But they've become a 100 percent Republican party shill organization, so no thanks.


Agreed. fark them and their FUD. Especially that farker LaPierre.

Sell fear and lies. Good job. All you ILA-donating fools giving away money for "freedom" are either idiots or fascists. You'll have to figure out which one you are for yourselves.
 
2012-04-07 09:39:24 PM

GAT_00: revrendjim: I quit the NRA four years ago because I kept getting insane emails from Wayne LaPierre about how Obama would be the most anti-gun president ever and this was the most important election in the history of the world. I voted for Obama.

They'll be the same e-mails this time around, never mind gun rights have increased in the last four years.


Aside from the one amendment on the consumer protection bill that allowed people to carry in national parks what else has there been on the federal level that expanded gun rights?
 
2012-04-07 09:42:39 PM

Giltric: Aside from the one amendment on the consumer protection bill that allowed people to carry in national parks what else has there been on the federal level that expanded gun rights?


Heller, but he was on the other side of that until the decision came down. The federal government itself has done quite a bit. The Executive Branch has not done very much of its own initiative.
 
2012-04-07 09:43:51 PM

AngryDragon: If the ACLU defended the 2nd amendment, the NRA wouldn't exist as a political entity.

Just saying.


They did represent 1 guy who wanted his firearms back but that probably fell under a 4th amendment defense instead of the 2nd.
 
2012-04-07 09:44:08 PM
Center for Media and Democracy? Prolly a totally non-partisan, legitimate source.

Also....
"But Spitzer said the NRA will always be primarily about guns and what they stand for in the individualist American mythology.

He said the NRA's work is cut out for it, because gun ownership is on the decline in America."

BS (new window)
 
2012-04-07 09:44:59 PM

violentsalvation: I just bought a 5 year membership about a week ago. They are supposed to send me a hat and a bumper sticker or something. I decided to join because they are doing good work in Illinois and hopefully they target California and NY soon too. (target, lol, right-wing hidden messages!) I wish they would keep it to just guns though.


If that's what they limited their politicking to, I'd be OK with them. Their training programs are good.

All the bullshiat they spew, the sanctimonious prick in charge and their board of psychopaths tells me that the basic gun owner is just a tool for them to use in their quest for a conservative majority.

Not to be confused with a quest to defend and advance laws promoting the RKBA.

fark them.
 
2012-04-07 09:48:53 PM

HeadLever: Giltric: Aside from the one amendment on the consumer protection bill that allowed people to carry in national parks what else has there been on the federal level that expanded gun rights?

Heller, but he was on the other side of that until the decision came down. The federal government itself has done quite a bit. The Executive Branch has not done very much of its own initiative.


Ahh sorry I was thinking more in terms of Obama specifically then the federal government as an entire entity.
 
2012-04-07 09:49:23 PM

GAT_00: revrendjim: ANOVA? SPSS?

SPSS. I hadn't actually run a standard ANOVA, and technically I can't. Half of the regions aren't normally distributed. The results are non-parametric correlations, Spearman's and Kendall's.

So even with non-parametric tests, it came out significant for majority at 1%. That says a lot too.


Eh, I'm a concealed carry license holder, and pretty seriously pro-gun in general, but I'm also a criminologist, and there's a significant complexity to the modeling that defies simple analysis. Crime rates in general have dropped, so just about everywhere, shall-issue CCW or no, shows improvement. The homicide rate has dropped by like 40% over the last fifteen years, which is a ridiculously significant drop, and is due (in my opinion) to a host of causes, of which CCW availability is probably only a minor influence. Instant background checks have denied purchase rights to literally tens of thousands of people who were on no-buy lists, but who would have been able to buy otherwise. Waiting periods are likely to have prevented at least SOME spur-of-the-moment murders, and possibly some mass murders. Reform of violent crime sentencing guidelines has resulted in a large number of repeat violent offenders serving sentences long enough to keep them out of circulation and unable to reoffend. The Assault Weapon Ban -- well, that was a complete POS that didn't do a goddamn thing, but some of the related legislation had a positive effect. One could argue that the re-establishment of an active capital punishment program may have a deterrent effect (one would be wrong, but one could argue that...).

When some fairly extensive econometric models are used, the findings are basically that CCW laws (overall) don't make things worse, and may make them somewhat better, but not nearly to the extent that people like John Lott claim. So from my own perspective, shall-issue CCW laws increase personal freedom without negatively impacting the society as a whole, thus they should be the standard.

That being said, I think that sane licensing guidelines should also be universally followed. You should have to show competency with your weapon of choice, not the crap mini-class that Florida makes you do. I believe I had to fire a total of five shots (it might have been ten), after a class that was embarassingly easy. If you're going to carry concealed, you should have to practice drawing from concealment and dry firing, then drawing from concealment with live ammunition. You should have to extensively practice de-escalation and situational awareness in a plausibly realistic scenario. I'm rambling and should stop. But hell, I live down here, teach down here, and it's something I'm fairly passionate about.
 
2012-04-07 09:49:26 PM
Guns, guns, guns.
 
2012-04-07 09:50:03 PM
Since gun control is a largely settled debate anymore, they have to evolve if they want to keep rolling in those delicious delicious donations.
 
2012-04-07 09:50:06 PM

AngryDragon: If the ACLU defended the 2nd amendment, the NRA wouldn't exist as a political entity.

Just saying.


Yes, they would. It would just be harder for them to hide behind the facade of advancing a civil right. The ACLU doesn't get involved in the RKBA specifically because the NRA is a very powerful group and they've felt that those cases would be a drain on resources since the NRA claims that as their territory.
 
2012-04-07 09:50:33 PM
www.meetthenra.org

Some of it's board members support Poontang. Wang dang, what a sweet poontang. Oh that Nadine.
 
2012-04-07 09:51:02 PM

cavehobbit: /Yes, i am a member. Wish I didn't have to be
//Also ACLU member. also wish I didn't have to be


How do you not burst into flames?
 
2012-04-07 09:51:14 PM

LoneWolf343: Since gun control is a largely settled debate anymore, they have to evolve if they want to keep rolling in those delicious delicious donations.


It is not nor will it ever be a settled debate.
 
2012-04-07 09:52:35 PM

wotthefark: [www.meetthenra.org image 200x300]

Some of it's board members support Poontang. Wang dang, what a sweet poontang. Oh that Nadine.


Not to mention they prey on underage girls
 
2012-04-07 09:52:38 PM
The NRA has been a fascist front group for quite some time. It's history suggests that it has had fascist underpinnings from its inception.
 
2012-04-07 09:54:47 PM

dr_blasto: AngryDragon: If the ACLU defended the 2nd amendment, the NRA wouldn't exist as a political entity.

Just saying.

Yes, they would. It would just be harder for them to hide behind the facade of advancing a civil right. The ACLU doesn't get involved in the RKBA specifically because the NRA is a very powerful group and they've felt that those cases would be a drain on resources since the NRA claims that as their territory.


ACLU views it as a collective right not an individual right.

They stand behind the Miller ruling.....where the defense had no representation.
 
2012-04-07 09:55:47 PM

Giltric: GAT_00: revrendjim: I quit the NRA four years ago because I kept getting insane emails from Wayne LaPierre about how Obama would be the most anti-gun president ever and this was the most important election in the history of the world. I voted for Obama.

They'll be the same e-mails this time around, never mind gun rights have increased in the last four years.

Aside from the one amendment on the consumer protection bill that allowed people to carry in national parks what else has there been on the federal level that expanded gun rights?


I believe that +1 is an expansion. Contrast that with the claims that Obama will take away your guns.
 
2012-04-07 10:00:47 PM

revrendjim: Giltric: GAT_00: revrendjim: I quit the NRA four years ago because I kept getting insane emails from Wayne LaPierre about how Obama would be the most anti-gun president ever and this was the most important election in the history of the world. I voted for Obama.

They'll be the same e-mails this time around, never mind gun rights have increased in the last four years.

Aside from the one amendment on the consumer protection bill that allowed people to carry in national parks what else has there been on the federal level that expanded gun rights?

I believe that +1 is an expansion. Contrast that with the claims that Obama will take away your guns.


Most pro RKBA farkers have maintained that the president would be foolish to do anything about it during his first term.....we shall see what the next 4 years brings to the table.


I'm not worried though. I'm content with being a criminal if any new gun control measures do happen.
 
2012-04-07 10:01:45 PM
The NRA's board includes Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, and David Keene, former chairman of the American Conservative Union. The board also includes Robert Brown, creator of Soldier of Fortune magazine, and rock guitarist Ted Nugent.

Oh, FFS.
 
2012-04-07 10:02:02 PM
I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you...
 
2012-04-07 10:03:18 PM

Fart_Machine: I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you...


At what? That someone who lobbys for one group might lobby for another group?
 
2012-04-07 10:08:30 PM

Giltric: if any new gun control measures do happen


Even if Obama does try to flex his muscle in this regard, I think that there would likely be some pretty stiff opposition from congress (even if it is controlled by Democrats). At least for now, I think there is a limit to what he could do.
 
2012-04-07 10:10:56 PM
Um, that sounds like the lobbyist is just wearing two hats, not like the NRA actually told her to lobby for other causes. Especially since she's actually employed by the other organization as well.

There is probably quite a lot of overlap, though, culturally the NRA's leadership shares a lot with right-wing causes. Similar big-time donors and so on. Which is odd, but isn't new.
 
2012-04-07 10:11:09 PM
I'd like to point out that "American Rifleman" and other such publications are merely propaganda tools for the GOP.

As a gun enthusiast myself, I find their political columns very inflammatory. Last month, they were on their usual smears of everyone and everything that isn't GOP, brazenly claimed they were "correcting" the "anti-gun" nuts. In reality, it was just a lopsided article tossing mud all over Obama for no reason at all that had absolutely nothing to do with firearms.

One of my other favorites was their biatching and faux outrage about Obama's use of the term "sportsmen" when referring to firearm owners (and subsequently his intentions of not infringing upon their rights, but they managed to spin that one as well)

This isn't new; but it's nice that it has come to light
 
2012-04-07 10:11:57 PM

Giltric: LoneWolf343: Since gun control is a largely settled debate anymore, they have to evolve if they want to keep rolling in those delicious delicious donations.

It is not nor will it ever be a settled debate.


We had a senator shot in the head, and heard nary a whimper about gun control over it: It's over.
 
2012-04-07 10:12:13 PM

Giltric: revrendjim: Giltric: GAT_00: revrendjim: I quit the NRA four years ago because I kept getting insane emails from Wayne LaPierre about how Obama would be the most anti-gun president ever and this was the most important election in the history of the world. I voted for Obama.

They'll be the same e-mails this time around, never mind gun rights have increased in the last four years.

Aside from the one amendment on the consumer protection bill that allowed people to carry in national parks what else has there been on the federal level that expanded gun rights?

I believe that +1 is an expansion. Contrast that with the claims that Obama will take away your guns.

Most pro RKBA farkers have maintained that the president would be foolish to do anything about it during his first term.....we shall see what the next 4 years brings to the table.


I'm not worried though. I'm content with being a criminal if any new gun control measures do happen.


I don't know what RKBA means, but the rest of your post is direct from Wayne. Look, I'm a gun owner. I got my kid an AK47 and 1000 rounds for his high school graduation. It was fun. Obama is not going to take your guns. Or mine.
 
2012-04-07 10:12:48 PM

CommieTaoist: So how do voter id and immigration laws relate to the second amendment?


If too many poor and brown people vote then the Dems might get enough power to enact some common sense gun laws?
 
2012-04-07 10:14:28 PM

quatchi: The NRA's board includes Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, and David Keene, former chairman of the American Conservative Union. The board also includes Robert Brown, creator of Soldier of Fortune magazine, and rock guitarist Ted Nugent.

Oh, FFS.


It also includes Senator Wide Stance (Larry Craig), and many other individuals of dubious pedigree.
 
2012-04-07 10:14:37 PM
I'm fine with personal ownership of firearms, but I just don't get people who are so vociferous about gun rights.

In a world where so much other important shiat is going on, why the big focus on guns by a certain sector of the population? I can only imagine it comes down to

1) Nutjobs who REALLY like shooting shiat
2) Nutjobs obsessed with black helicopters

The amount of catering done to those groups of people is pretty ridiculous.
 
2012-04-07 10:16:24 PM

Giltric: Most pro RKBA farkers have maintained that the president would be foolish to do anything about it during his first term


Which they were forced to switch to after he didn't even think about it this term. But he'll totally do it next term!

dahmers love zombie: and there's a significant complexity to the modeling that defies simple analysis


This is why I wasn't expecting significant results. Of course, it really is a simple correlation. The fact that it does not hold true nationwide and can be shown to increase crime in two regions shows that the simple result isn't everything.

Of course, this is one test for a class project for a statistics class. If something that simple can't show positive correlation across the board, you've got to wonder what a complex one would do. I'll see if my actual thesis project gives some insight, though it isn't concerning CC. It is mapping demographics against crime though. Self organizing maps look fun.

dahmers love zombie: but not nearly to the extent that people like John Lott claim.


I found one paper that backed up Lott's claims, but noted that they got the data they tested from John Lott. They did find a wide variation in his results, higher in some areas and lower in others, but come the fark on. Let's see, Plassmann and Tideman, 2001. Journal of Law and Economics, Vol. 44. It's kind of approving of my own biases, but the non-conclusive results I've found from Kovandzic seem more realistic.
 
2012-04-07 10:16:42 PM

HeadLever: (even if it is controlled by Democrats)


Liberals own guns too, but you'd never know it by the hype.

No fewer than three conservative presidential candidates are intent on visiting this

cbsstlouis.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-04-07 10:19:49 PM

revrendjim: I don't know what RKBA means, but the rest of your post is direct from Wayne


Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Maybe Wayne reads my blog.
 
2012-04-07 10:20:19 PM

AngryDragon: If the ACLU defended the 2nd amendment, the NRA wouldn't exist as a political entity.

Just saying.


Actually, according to their website, the only reason the ACLU doesn't do many 2nd Amendment cases is because the NRA exists to handle those, freeing the ACLU up to focus on the other 9 of the Bill of Rights and other civil rights issues. If the NRA ceased to exist, the ACLU supposedly would start taking on more 2nd Amendment cases.


iaazathot: The NRA has been a fascist front group for quite some time. It's [sic] history suggests that it has had fascist underpinnings from its inception.


Really? Do tell. You mean real history, not the laughably 180° diametric opposite of reality "Cartoon History of America" from Bowling for Columbine, I hope?

I'm no fan of LaPierre's NRA, but under Heston, and for most of its history prior to that, it was a worthy organization.
 
2012-04-07 10:21:21 PM

edmo: HeadLever: (even if it is controlled by Democrats)

Liberals own guns too, but you'd never know it by the hype.

No fewer than three conservative presidential candidates are intent on visiting this

[cbsstlouis.files.wordpress.com image 300x200]


Holy crap, they basically copied that same template for this years billboards.

/Not a very creative bunch aren't they?
 
2012-04-07 10:22:13 PM

Giltric: revrendjim: Giltric: GAT_00: revrendjim: I quit the NRA four years ago because I kept getting insane emails from Wayne LaPierre about how Obama would be the most anti-gun president ever and this was the most important election in the history of the world. I voted for Obama.

They'll be the same e-mails this time around, never mind gun rights have increased in the last four years.

Aside from the one amendment on the consumer protection bill that allowed people to carry in national parks what else has there been on the federal level that expanded gun rights?

I believe that +1 is an expansion. Contrast that with the claims that Obama will take away your guns.

Most pro RKBA farkers have maintained that the president would be foolish to do anything about it during his first term.....we shall see what the next 4 years brings to the table.


I'm not worried though. I'm content with being a criminal if any new gun control measures do happen.


There isn't and will not be enough support in congress for any new limitations. The debate is over, Brady lost. No matter what Obama thinks of guns, he's not going to pursue anything this term or in another.
 
2012-04-07 10:24:05 PM

revrendjim: Giltric: revrendjim: Giltric: GAT_00: revrendjim: I quit the NRA four years ago because I kept getting insane emails from Wayne LaPierre about how Obama would be the most anti-gun president ever and this was the most important election in the history of the world. I voted for Obama.

They'll be the same e-mails this time around, never mind gun rights have increased in the last four years.

Aside from the one amendment on the consumer protection bill that allowed people to carry in national parks what else has there been on the federal level that expanded gun rights?

I believe that +1 is an expansion. Contrast that with the claims that Obama will take away your guns.

Most pro RKBA farkers have maintained that the president would be foolish to do anything about it during his first term.....we shall see what the next 4 years brings to the table.


I'm not worried though. I'm content with being a criminal if any new gun control measures do happen.

I don't know what RKBA means, but the rest of your post is direct from Wayne. Look, I'm a gun owner. I got my kid an AK47 and 1000 rounds for his high school graduation. It was fun. Obama is not going to take your guns. Or mine.


RKBA=right to keep and bear arms
 
2012-04-07 10:25:09 PM

COMALite J: I'm no fan of LaPierre's NRA, but under Heston, and for most of its history prior to that, it was a worthy organization.


Gordon Street? Ah, yes, Gordon Street. I once knew a girl who lived on Gordon Street. Long time ago, when I was a young man. Not a day passes I don't think of her and the promise that I made which I will always keep. That one perfect day on Gordon Stree
 
2012-04-07 10:30:07 PM

CommieTaoist: So how do voter id and immigration laws relate to the second amendment?


Because terrorism, I'd think.
 
2012-04-07 10:36:10 PM

Mrtraveler01: /Not a very creative bunch aren't they?


Well, they are conservatives.
 
2012-04-07 10:39:48 PM

HeartBurnKid: Mrtraveler01: /Not a very creative bunch aren't they?

Well, they are conservatives.


Touche.
 
2012-04-07 10:41:50 PM

GAT_00: violentsalvation: I just bought a 5 year membership about a week ago. They are supposed to send me a hat and a bumper sticker or something. I decided to join because they are doing good work in Illinois and hopefully they target California and NY soon too. (target, lol, right-wing hidden messages!) I wish they would keep it to just guns though.

*Threadjack*

So, I've been looking at crime rates against a binary variable of yes/no concealed carry laws. I ended up grouping the states by OMB region to make things more manageable, and I tested from 1991-2009. It found significance at the 5% level for an area covering about 2/3 of the US, showing that for most of the country, concealed carry laws did make those areas safer. Three regions it did not show that.

OMB Region V - Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio and Wisconsin - where the test was not significant at all, so no conclusions.
OMB Region VII - Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska - where it was just below 5% significance, but showed that CC slightly increased crime
OMB Region IX - Arizona, California, Hawaii and Nevada - same as Region VII, but even weaker significance and less crime increase.

Basically, it showed that Illinois and California shouldn't legalize CC. I don't know why those regions failed the test. But for most of the country, I must concede that CC does seem to reduce crime. I still think that we simply accept a shooting rampage happening once a month as a consequence is utterly wrong.

*Threadjack off*


I was out for dinner.

Is this something you studied for personal curiosity or do you have it written up in a report? I'd like to read it if it is the latter.

dr_blasto: If that's what they limited their politicking to, I'd be OK with them. Their training programs are good.

All the bullshiat they spew, the sanctimonious prick in charge and their board of psychopaths tells me that the basic gun owner is just a tool for them to use in their quest for a conservative majority.

Not to be confused with a quest to defend and advance laws promoting the RKBA.

fark them.


I probably should have done a bit more research before I drunkenly purchased a membership. My interests would probably be better represented, and not conflicted if I had purchased membership with the GOA instead.
 
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