Somewhere in the mid-2000's, Ford automobiles stopped sucking. They started building quality cars again. That's why they didn't need a bailout.

Oh yeah, and because of these

FloydA: Mentat: Maybe because all of the auto parts suppliers didn't go bankrupt when the government bailed out the other car manufacturers?

Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

IIRC Ford did get a fairly sizable government loan... It just wasn't officially part of the "Auto Bailout".

Instead of going with the government bailout, Ford got an injection of cash from the Ford family, many of whom were on their Board of Directors. Those connections were able to coordinate in ways that the directors and shareholders of, say, GM, were not able to.

Source (new window, soft paywall)

I believed! My Ford and Genuine Parts gains more than balance out the 'green' losses.

MugzyBrown: FloydA: Mentat: Maybe because all of the auto parts suppliers didn't go bankrupt when the government bailed out the other car manufacturers?

Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

Anybody who believes that this is a sucker.

Just like we had to give banks billions or the world would collapse.

Bailing both out was a good idea, even though they were in trouble for different reasons. Holding the people responsible for these reasons accountable would have been an even better idea.

Because they look at what GM produces and say to themselves, "Let's not do that."

FTA: "$26 billion line of credit in 2006"

Ford's finances were far more screwed up much earlier than GM or Chrysler. All else being equal, they would have been the first to go down. The fact that they were able to set up a line of credit secured by absolutely everything that was worth anything before the financial crisis hit saved them two years later. If GM had had the foresight to do that at the same time, they probably wouldn't have needed a government bailout.

I'd be willing to bet that by late 2008, some bank president was in deep trouble with his board for giving Ford access to their money.

FloydA: Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

There would not suddenly be zero demand for cars if the big 3 tanked. Anyone who doesn't understand what would result from that demand is an idiot.

This guy.

Boeing should have hung onto him. Instead we got the 787 supplier clusterfark

MugzyBrown: FloydA: Mentat: Maybe because all of the auto parts suppliers didn't go bankrupt when the government bailed out the other car manufacturers?

Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

Anybody who believes that this is a sucker.

Just like we had to give banks billions or the world would collapse.

Explain your alternative to the bank bailouts that wouldn't have resulted in a freeze of the commercial paper market. Take all the time you need.

the_geek: FloydA: Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

There would not suddenly be zero demand for cars if the big 3 tanked. Anyone who doesn't understand what would result from that demand is an idiot.

And I'm sure demand would've remained constant if they'd liquidated, right? After all, that wouldn't have any effect on jobs and household income in the regions; and surely there would've been no spillover into other sectors.

the_geek: FloydA: Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

There would not suddenly be zero demand for cars if the big 3 tanked. Anyone who doesn't understand what would result from that demand is an idiot.

Alan Mulally, Ford's CEO, speaks at my alma mater (same as his) fairly regularly. His stated opinion is that Ford would have shut down within a month of GM due to shared suppliers. And that GM would have liquidated for pennies without the bailout because there was simply no capital available during the 2008 collapse. He's as pro-bailout as anyone, so I don't think you can buy a Ford, either.

the_geek: FloydA: Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

There would not suddenly be zero demand for cars if the big 3 tanked. Anyone who doesn't understand what would result from that demand is an idiot.

The demand may have been there, but it would be moot. How do you buy a new car without a job?

The foreign auto manufacturers that have set up shop here in the US would have been damaged as well as parts suppliers went belly up.

This is also not mentioning people that work at business unrelated to but supported by the paychecks coming from those auto jobs (like run of the mill retailers, restaurants, movie theaters, etc.) would have hurt too.

I grew up in Michigan. I've been all over Flint and Detroit. The manufacturing jobs went away, and like dominoes, those cities crumbled. Anyone that could afford it moved out of those cities and to the burbs or just plain left the state, and other businesses went with them, exacerbating the problem. Nothing has come back filled their place.

The Big Three folding up the last of their business there would have been the straw the broke the camel's back. The high paying engineering and corporate jobs that remain would have gone poof, not just union ones.

I've been a pretty loyal Ford customer since my 1998 Ford Mustang. Now i have a 2008 Ford Escape. People have been disparaging Ford and American cars for years, but i've had great experience. And they're cheaper than Japanese or German cars.

MugzyBrown: Explain your alternative to the bank bailouts that wouldn't have resulted in a freeze of the commercial paper market. Take all the time you need.

Irresponsible banks go bankrupt. Responsible banks buy their assets for pennies on the dollar.

That's all the time I need.

MugzyBrown: Explain your alternative to the bank bailouts that wouldn't have resulted in a freeze of the commercial paper market. Take all the time you need.

Irresponsible banks go bankrupt. Responsible banks buy their assets for pennies on the dollar.

That's all the time I need.

Were you alive in 2008 and, if so, what industry did you work in that insulated you from the realities the global economic situation was facing at the time?

I miss my old Ford Bronco. When I saw the new Ford Explorer I damn near wept in disappointment.

Great_Milenko: Somewhere in the mid-2000's, Ford automobiles stopped sucking. They started building quality cars again. That's why they didn't need a bailout.

Oh yeah, and because of these

[1.cdn.lib.americanmuscle.com image 550x413]

I agree, the non creamsicle version of that car is amazing to look at and drive. Seriously, the cockpit is like being in a rocket ship...

No mention of selling their share in Mazda to raise cash?

because ford of europe's products are hugely popular all over the world?

As someone who bought a Ford Fiesta this weekend I'm getting a kick etc...

Seriously though, that car has features that I would have thought were optional add-ons. Hill-assist in a daily driver? Hell yes.

FloydA: Mentat: Maybe because all of the auto parts suppliers didn't go bankrupt when the government bailed out the other car manufacturers?

Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

THIS!

Eco-Sport?

Great_Milenko: Somewhere in the mid-2000's, Ford automobiles stopped sucking. They started building quality cars again. That's why they didn't need a bailout.

Oh yeah, and because of these

[1.cdn.lib.americanmuscle.com image 550x413]

A 300HP GT? Meh

/Not too big of a deal now that the V6's make more HP than that
//And the GT's are what, 412HP now?
///Mustangs have been making 300+ HP for over 15 years now

GM failing would've directly led to 1 million people becoming unemployed. Factor in a domino effect from those 1 million and it's anybody guess as to how many jobs would have been lost.

2012 Ford Focus
Love it, and I'm coming from a time in my life where I was much more passionate about cars and image, and owned two BMW's and most recently a Mercedes. The Focus compares pretty favorably in every regard except pure power, but makes up for it in MPG.
Having recently driven pretty much every car in the Focus's class, I'm pretty impressed with what Ford is doing. Hyundai is also making impressive cars right now. Honda... not so much. Seriously Honda, the Civic was the class leader for pretty much two decades and you totally crapified it.

/first Ford
//first domestic of any kind
///probably not my last Ford
////not surprised that Ford is doing well

MugzyBrown: Were you alive in 2008 and, if so, what industry did you work in that insulated you from the realities the global economic situation was facing at the time?

I work in the financial industry for a firm that was prepared for the economic situation because it had been coming for 10 years.

Oh, bullshait.
Every major firm had extensive ties to each other. That's why when lehman brothers went under everybody panicked. Goldman, Morgan, etc all had money being held by Lehman and wouldn't be able to touch it for two years if they were lucky.

Maybe because all of the auto parts suppliers didn't go bankrupt when the government bailed out the other car manufacturers?

Ford was part of the original bailout request to Washington, DC and took maximum advantage of federal and state assistance programs for suppliers.

MugzyBrown: Explain your alternative to the bank bailouts that wouldn't have resulted in a freeze of the commercial paper market. Take all the time you need.

Irresponsible banks go bankrupt. Responsible banks buy their assets for pennies on the dollar.

That's all the time I need.

So, your suggestion would have been to bring a halt to the vast majority of commerical lending in the country and allow most of the large banks in the country to collapse resulting in the evaporation of trillions of dollars of assets?

MugzyBrown: Were you alive in 2008 and, if so, what industry did you work in that insulated you from the realities the global economic situation was facing at the time?

I work in the financial industry for a firm that was prepared for the economic situation because it had been coming for 10 years.

Which firm were you working for that continued to lend to its counterparties and to overnight commercial clients in the face of a near total credit freeze? Did your firm hold any CDOs or CDSs against the large banks or commercial investment houses? If so, was it prepared to absorb the losses on those instruments and pay out on any CDSs it issued against other institutions? Who is your employer?

Full disclosure, I work for Bank of America.

Chumming for Kraken: 2012 Ford Focus
Love it, and I'm coming from a time in my life where I was much more passionate about cars and image, and owned two BMW's and most recently a Mercedes. The Focus compares pretty favorably in every regard except pure power, but makes up for it in MPG.
Having recently driven pretty much every car in the Focus's class, I'm pretty impressed with what Ford is doing. Hyundai is also making impressive cars right now. Honda... not so much. Seriously Honda, the Civic was the class leader for pretty much two decades and you totally crapified it.

/first Ford
//first domestic of any kind
///probably not my last Ford
////not surprised that Ford is doing well

and this is what helps... Ford are using cars designed in Europe (which have been consistently better for about 12 years than the US designed Fords, trucks aside) but purposely in mind of the US market, and selling them globally. Result: Less R&D for Ford America and Ford Europe alone as they shared the costs, and still make the same gross profit per vehicle as if they had done it themselves. They're extending it too - the decidedly Aston Martin-looking 2013 Mondeo will be the US 2013 Fusion... i'm still waiting to see if they release the Kuga in the US, but the Escape takes up that segment at the moment.

GM, on the other hand, operate different brands in different markets (Holden, Opel and Vauxhall spring to mind straight away - they all carry the same range with a couple of country-specific models), and in the US, Chevy, Dodge, Jeep and Chrysler models were sitting far to close with blatant cloning going on - same car, different badge and front grille, slightly different interior spec), far too expensive a way to do things.

/wants an F150 Raptor
//Ford UK won't import me one
///Several other companies will, and convert it to RHD

Chumming for Kraken: 2012 Ford Focus
Love it, and I'm coming from a time in my life where I was much more passionate about cars and image, and owned two BMW's and most recently a Mercedes. The Focus compares pretty favorably in every regard except pure power, but makes up for it in MPG.
Having recently driven pretty much every car in the Focus's class, I'm pretty impressed with what Ford is doing. Hyundai is also making impressive cars right now. Honda... not so much. Seriously Honda, the Civic was the class leader for pretty much two decades and you totally crapified it.

/first Ford
//first domestic of any kind
///probably not my last Ford
////not surprised that Ford is doing well

The Focus is as American as bratwurst.

Ford has been making some truely great cars for the last decade. The Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo are realy great cars. Its a pity it took this long for Ford America to not fark up the Focus and to start importing the Fiesta.

/the Mazda3?
//Its just a European Focus

Ford gets $2B per year in corporate welfare. Year after year. Not like those socialists who sold stock. Bootstraps!

Mentat: Maybe because all of the auto parts suppliers didn't go bankrupt when the government bailed out the other car manufacturers?

That's not how bankruptcy works you ignorant twat.

RickyWilliams'sBong: the_geek: FloydA: Exactly. Without the bailout, they would have tanked too. The bailout was strategic, and worked perfectly. Anyone who disapproves of it either doesn't understand economics or wanted Detroit, possibly all of the US, to fail.

There would not suddenly be zero demand for cars if the big 3 tanked. Anyone who doesn't understand what would result from that demand is an idiot.

And I'm sure demand would've remained constant if they'd liquidated, right? After all, that wouldn't have any effect on jobs and household income in the regions; and surely there would've been no spillover into other sectors.

Liquidation is not the only bankruptcy route you ignorant twat.

Mulally is a rare example of a CEO who actually deserves his hefty paycheck. The exception that proves the rule, if you will. He was personally responsible for a very large amount of Ford's turn around.

Great, more pollution machines on the road. Just what we need.

MyRandomName: Liquidation is not the only bankruptcy route you ignorant twat.

No. It is not the only bankruptcy route. GM and Chrysler indeed *went* bankrupt and were not liquidated.

The question is "what alternative to liquidation was there in the second half of 2008?" For those who don't remember it, global credit markets weren't in a position to loan Bill Gates $5 to sell ice water in the desert, let alone give any possible buying entity the wherewithal to keep GM afloat as a functional operation or allow it to reorganize. Bear Stearns had just gone pining. The largest bank default in US history had just happened (WaMu... bigger than every FDIC closure since put together). The nation's largest lender (Countrywide) had just been shotgun-married off.

So, yes, there was an alternative to liquidation under BK. That's what GM did.