FARK.com: (7031467) When reporters think they are on CSI Miami, real police have to work twice as hard to undo damage caused by the media

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		When reporters think they are on CSI Miami, real police have to work twice as hard to undo damage caused by the media (staugustine.com)		196
		More: Followup, CSI Miami, Miami, martin case, Nova Southeastern University, police videos, Temecula, prices, Rick Scott

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AdmirableSnackbar		2012-04-04 11:24:15 AM

Silly Jesus: I thought that the seeking shelter thing was confirmed by the girlfriend of Martin. I know that I've heard that. She said that he mentioned something about stopping under an overhang because of the rain. I'm not basing it on anything Zimmerman said.

Ah, that is true, my mistake. He stopped under the overhang of the complex's management office so that he could put his hood up because of the rain. This seems to be before Zimmerman caught sight of him and certainly before Zimmerman called 911, since on the call Zimmerman makes no mention of Martin "hiding" under the overhang of a house. My point still stands, though. Zimmerman called 911 and then followed Martin for the crime of walking down a sidewalk looking at houses. Now, all of that may be legal, but is it at all rational or the right thing to do?

This reminds me of the "I'm not touching you" game children play to annoy each other. Sure, as long as you don't lay a finger on me it's "OK" but it doesn't mean you're not being a dick. Zimmerman acted like a dick and a kid died as a result. Yet he seems to be a hero to some people. I tend to be of the mindset that your rights end where they infringe on the rights of others. And Zimmerman was clearly infringing on Martin's right to walk down a sidewalk free from harrassment.

halB		2012-04-04 11:25:19 AM

BigBooper: Silly Jesus: ghare: Every time the police have told me to do (or not do) something and I have disobeyed them, I was in Big Trouble.

But in Sanford, if the cops tell you not to get out of your car and follow someone, but you do anyway and then shoot that someone, no problem!

/Place sucks.

The cops didn't tell him to not get out of his car.
The cops didn't tell him to not follow someone.
A dispatcher, who is not a cop and has no legal standing to tell you what to do, stated that WE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT.
He was following him so that he could tell the police where he was, the dispatcher simply was saying that that wasn't necessary...

How this gets turned into "THE POLICE ORDERED HIM TO STOP WHAT HE WAS DOING" is an excellent example of the derp that takes over these kinds of sensational stories.

Shhhhh, All this logic gets in the way of the truth.
Zimmerman saw an African American youth walking through his neighborhood, and in a fit of racism, ran him down and murdered him in cold blood while the poor innocent boy was on the ground screaming for help. While we don't have any proof, or evidence, I believe at the time of the shooting, and while Martin was on his knees begging for his life, Zimmerman leered menacingly and said "One pull of the trigger for another dead N*gger" BOOM.

Zimmerman's version is clearly all lies.

I also support this statement in its entirety. Because if you're going to prejudge zimmerman, PLEASE go all out like this poster did. Don't hold back, make the portrait vivid.

liam76		2012-04-04 11:28:12 AM

Mykeru: liam76: So your premise about it being "a de facto hunting license for typically white, middle-class or higher people against typically black, minorities or other "undesirables" is full of shiat.

Not in this case.

Well you are wrong, because in this case Zimmerman is not off the hook.

It is also BS of you to move the goal posts and pretend that you were talking abotu this case, as opposed to the overall effect of the law.

And the reason people would be OK with that outcome is that it preserves the spirit of "Stand Your Ground", which works as a de facto hunting license for typically white, middle-class or higher people against typically black, minorities or other "undesirables". Sure, that may not be how it is presented on paper, but hell, look how it's working. :

Kit Fister		2012-04-04 11:30:14 AM

AdmirableSnackbar: Silly Jesus: So that was "wrongful" in your mind or are you saying that there is something legally wrong with walking down a sidewalk in your own apartment complex?

Trayvon Martin was walking down a sidewalk in his father's housing complex. That's the point, he wasn't doing anything illegal but Zimmerman decided that he was. Zimmerman following Martin for doing nothing illegal was wrong.

If a cop had seen Trayvon, he would have likely thought him suspicious as well. Hell, anyone with a brain would have. He's out walking in the rain and ducking into the dark overhangs of the building. There's nothing wrong with that, and Trayvon apparently said on the phone to his girlfriend that he was doing that to get out of the rain, but it's still attention grabbing behavior at night. On top of that, there were previous crimes committed in that same complex by young black males. You have to be incredibly naive or incredibly stupid to not have your attention grabbed by such a sight knowing all of these things

Who knows if Martin ducked into the overhang of the complex's office building? That's what Zimmerman later said happened but it also contradicts his story on the phone to police saying that he was just walking and looking at the houses. Let's deal with facts here, not conjecture on either side. If you don't like what the media's attempts at factual reports about Zimmerman then why do you cling to Zimmerman's not-exactly-unbiased version of events?

I live in a fairly sparse farming community. Our neighbors are elderly, and we all know each other. If I see a vehicle or a person in the neighborhood that I don't recognize and don't know lives there, then I keep an eye on them. Many times the people are folks who are either out of state or out from one of the cities nearby that stop in and help themselves to the farmer's crops (apples, peaches, etc.). Sometimes weirder shiat happens.

In the cases where people are trespassing on farmers' land adjacent to ours, we'll request that the people leave because they are trespassing and stealing from the owner of the land. Most often they do. I or another neighbor will walk over and speak to them to find out who they are and ask whether they have permission to be there, etc. If they refuse or get belligerent, then we inform them we're calling the sheriff and we head back to the house.

Only twice have we ever had an issue where anything might've happened. However, out where we are, the response time of police is such that it's simply easier and common courtesy to ask folks who are trespassing to leave or get permission. We all watch out for each other.

I have had one incident where a person was driving slowly around the area, going past all of the houses real slowly. I didn't pursue, but I did keep an eye on them, and I followed them on my way home until I could get where I could call the cops from a safe spot. Never came to anything, but I did it just the same.

I believe that it is being a good neighbor, not being a vigilante, since we all watch out for each other.

s2s2s2		2012-04-04 11:34:09 AM

Mykeru: Well, you've got your game plan all worked out, dontcha?

Yeah. You are welcome.

AdmirableSnackbar		2012-04-04 11:35:54 AM

Kit Fister: I have had one incident where a person was driving slowly around the area, going past all of the houses real slowly. I didn't pursue, but I did keep an eye on them, and I followed them on my way home until I could get where I could call the cops from a safe spot. Never came to anything, but I did it just the same.

I believe that it is being a good neighbor, not being a vigilante, since we all watch out for each other.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with this. And you do realize that there is a huge difference between this anecdote and what Zimmerman did, right? You did the right thing, Zimmerman did the wrong thing.

cryinoutloud		2012-04-04 11:37:02 AM

"The public needs to know that this is a very complex case," said Ron Martinelli, a forensics consultant in Temecula, Calif. "There are many issues that come into play and sometimes come into conflict."

Gee, maybe what we really need here is a law that doesn't allow people to shoot others for just about anything, and then only have version of events left after someone is dead.

Spade		2012-04-04 11:37:09 AM

Mykeru: Spade: Stop changing the subject and back up your original claim with evidence.

Well, it's like when you said "I like hot man-meat". That's not an exact quote, but I think I captured the essence of your argument.

So not only do you not have any evidence for your argument but you are also hate gay people.

LemSkroob		2012-04-04 11:38:06 AM

The whole issue of black/white racism can easily be solved by just sending the all black people back to Africa.

There, no more conflict.

Spade		2012-04-04 11:39:28 AM

cryinoutloud: Gee, maybe what we really need here is a law that doesn't allow people to shoot others for just about anything, and then only have version of events left after someone is dead.

So a "reasonable belief" of "imminent death or great bodily harm" equals "just about anything".

Case		2012-04-04 11:41:00 AM

Can we get some of you CSI: Sanford interns to blow-up and enhance the wounds to zimmermans head and nose. I keep reading about how the first video is too grainy, and the second one "appears" to show wounds to the back of his head. But watching it I just saw some reflections on both zimmermans head and the cop next to him, is there anything to the claim of a wound being present, or is the quality of the video too poor to tell?

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER		2012-04-04 11:41:51 AM

Silly Jesus: Young black males, roughly 5% of the US population, account for 70% of all violent crime. Her general assessment, interpreted very loosely, isn't that far off from the stats.

Citation needed. Blacks are 12.6 of our population, and half of them are female, so 6.3 percent are male. Only half of that number may be young, because the other half is old. this leaves us with 3.15 percent that is black, young and male. You're not giving them enough credit. 70% of all violent crime?!? Really? They must be ambitious, or young white males are slackers.

Callous		2012-04-04 11:46:53 AM

Mykeru: Under SYG justifiable homicides have doubled in Florida.

So are more people getting away with murder or are more innocent people who defended themselves not going to jail? Remember to show your work.

Digital Communist		2012-04-04 12:06:31 PM

Spade: cryinoutloud: Gee, maybe what we really need here is a law that doesn't allow people to shoot others for just about anything, and then only have version of events left after someone is dead.

So a "reasonable belief" of "imminent death or great bodily harm" equals "just about anything".

In the case in question this 'reasonable belief' is qualified by the shooter's account of the events that led to the death of the person he was stalking. So yes in fact it does seem to equal 'just about anything' as long as no one got it on video.

Spade		2012-04-04 12:10:45 PM

Digital Communist: Spade: cryinoutloud: Gee, maybe what we really need here is a law that doesn't allow people to shoot others for just about anything, and then only have version of events left after someone is dead.

So a "reasonable belief" of "imminent death or great bodily harm" equals "just about anything".

In the case in question this 'reasonable belief' is qualified by the shooter's account of the events that led to the death of the person he was stalking. So yes in fact it does seem to equal 'just about anything' as long as no one got it on video.

That would be the case in the vast majority of self defense cases under any law and a lot of crimes in general.

Digital Communist		2012-04-04 12:27:05 PM

Spade: Digital Communist: Spade: cryinoutloud: Gee, maybe what we really need here is a law that doesn't allow people to shoot others for just about anything, and then only have version of events left after someone is dead.

So a "reasonable belief" of "imminent death or great bodily harm" equals "just about anything".

In the case in question this 'reasonable belief' is qualified by the shooter's account of the events that led to the death of the person he was stalking. So yes in fact it does seem to equal 'just about anything' as long as no one got it on video.

That would be the case in the vast majority of self defense cases under any law and a lot of crimes in general.

So am I the only one who feels they could kill anyone they like in Florida and get away with it? Let's call it the he was comin right at me defence.

zepher		2012-04-04 12:48:05 PM

Ambivalence: rynthetyn: I had to unfriend somebody on Facebook after she started basically arguing that all black men other than the ones she was friends with, who were good responsible black men who are a credit to their race, of course, are rapists and murderers. But she wasn't racist at all, because she has black friends and how could she possibly be racist when she's hispanic?

It's amazing the delusions we tell ourselves.

You mean like how the media feels that black people can never be racist, ever?

Mykeru		2012-04-04 01:22:24 PM

Spade: So not only do you not have any evidence for your argument but you are also hate gay people.

You just can't stop, can you?

Callous: So are more people getting away with murder or are more innocent people who defended themselves not going to jail?

Congratulations. You have correctly identified the question. Please accept this Captain Obvious secret decoder ring.

liam76		2012-04-04 01:26:19 PM

Mykeru: Callous: So are more people getting away with murder or are more innocent people who defended themselves not going to jail?

Congratulations. You have correctly identified the question. Please accept this Captain Obvious secret decoder ring.

If that is the question, earlier claim about this law working "as a de facto hunting license for typically white, middle-class or higher people against typically black, minorities or other "undesirables". Sure, that may not be how it is presented on paper, but hell, look how it's working" is false.

skrame		2012-04-04 01:26:20 PM

Spade: Mykeru: Spade: Stop changing the subject and back up your original claim with evidence.

Well, it's like when you said "I like hot man-meat". That's not an exact quote, but I think I captured the essence of your argument.

So not only do you not have any evidence for your argument but you are also hate gay people.

Now you're assuming that Mykeru thinks you're a man. Maybe he thought you were a man-meat loving lady.

Seriously, watching you two go at it is like watching a race between short buses. Thanks for the entertainment.

Spade		2012-04-04 01:49:17 PM

Mykeru: Spade: So not only do you not have any evidence for your argument but you are also hate gay people.

You just can't stop, can you?

I'll stop when you provide evidence of your claims.

Mykeru		2012-04-04 01:51:32 PM

liam76: Mykeru: Callous: So are more people getting away with murder or are more innocent people who defended themselves not going to jail?

Congratulations. You have correctly identified the question. Please accept this Captain Obvious secret decoder ring.

If that is the question, earlier claim about this law working "as a de facto hunting license for typically white, middle-class or higher people against typically black, minorities or other "undesirables". Sure, that may not be how it is presented on paper, but hell, look how it's working" is false.

No, whether or not all the justifiable homicides were justified is a separate but related issue of a totally hypothetical and completely unsubstantiated and probably totally wrong, wrong, wrong supposition that justice is unfairly applied due to race in this country.

I have no idea what I was thinking. We have a bi-racial president, so of course we are in a post-racial period.

OK, gather 'round. Kumbaya, everyone.

skrame: Now you're assuming that Mykeru thinks you're a man. Maybe he thought you were a man-meat loving lady.

I think it is a completely gender-neutral observation that Spade obviously loves the cock.

Mykeru		2012-04-04 01:53:56 PM

Spade: Mykeru: Spade: So not only do you not have any evidence for your argument but you are also hate gay people.

You just can't stop, can you?

I'll stop when you provide evidence of your claims.

Don't.

Stop.

Don't, stop.

Don't-stop-don't-stop-don't-stop-don't-stop-don't-stop...

/Then the trucker gave you five bucks and tossed you from the moving cab.

meathome		2012-04-04 02:03:57 PM

Case: Can we get some of you CSI: Sanford interns to blow-up and enhance the wounds to zimmermans head and nose. I keep reading about how the first video is too grainy, and the second one "appears" to show wounds to the back of his head. But watching it I just saw some reflections on both zimmermans head and the cop next to him, is there anything to the claim of a wound being present, or is the quality of the video too poor to tell?

/not CSI: Sanford

Video quality is a bit too poor to show anything but what might be a wound to the nose and forehead (and the forehead might just be lighting).

The "enhanced" video doesn't mean much to me since it's a 2nd or 3d gen copy, and even with the technology, it's the 1st gen of the media that carries most of the weight (yes, even with digital).

SOP would be to photograph the injuries. I'm waiting to see those, and if not, for someone to ask why the hell not if they put it in their report.

/the local PD may not like it, but they screwed up in how they handled this, and leaving things loose enough for several leaks to occur
//and that's before we talk about the investigation itself... I shudder to think about what errors a close look at that will show.

liam76		2012-04-04 02:06:18 PM

Mykeru: liam76: Mykeru: Callous: So are more people getting away with murder or are more innocent people who defended themselves not going to jail?

Congratulations. You have correctly identified the question. Please accept this Captain Obvious secret decoder ring.

If that is the question, earlier claim about this law working "as a de facto hunting license for typically white, middle-class or higher people against typically black, minorities or other "undesirables". Sure, that may not be how it is presented on paper, but hell, look how it's working" is false.

No, whether or not all the justifiable homicides were justified is a separate but related issue of a totally hypothetical and completely unsubstantiated and probably totally wrong, wrong, wrong supposition that justice is unfairly applied due to race in this country.

So now you are moving the goal posts from calling the law a "de-facto hunting license" for whites against blacks, to a "supposition that justice is unfairly applied due to race"?

And you have no problem with your stance on that law and not knowing if more people are getting away with murder or are more innocent people who defended themselves not going to jail?

NiceBeaver		2012-04-04 02:15:39 PM

altrocks: Snagged this off a thread a couple weeks ago. Let's get some basic things worked out about location, time and placement before this turns into a solipsistic nightmare of uncertainty.

[a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x309]
Clicky - pops to bigger size.

Interesting photo...but if the neighborhood is so small, why didn't Treyvon Martin just run to his father's house?

This text is now purple		2012-04-04 02:20:44 PM

Mykeru: Spade: So you're unwilling to prove your argument unless I can prove that you should prove your argument and one data point does not a conclusion make.

Somewhere, in your universe, people are performing the 1919 Eddington test of gravitational bending of light proving General Relativity again, and again, and again and again because, like eating peanuts, one is just never enough.

I've figured it out though. You're not a skeptic. You just have OCD.

Is it worth pointing out that they ran that test three times, because the first and second attempts had conflicting results?

This text is now purple		2012-04-04 02:25:26 PM

Mykeru: Find me an equivalent case of a black guy shooting a white guy who is totally given a free pass, and we'll talk. Because if one thing this case shows, from the initial assumptions of the dispatcher, the initial police response, the police not even bothering to send a homicide detective on scene and the only toxicology done being on the victim, that is how it works.

That was how it worked in Dooley. He just made the mistake of having four eyewitnesses.

AdmirableSnackbar		2012-04-04 02:36:19 PM

NiceBeaver: altrocks: Snagged this off a thread a couple weeks ago. Let's get some basic things worked out about location, time and placement before this turns into a solipsistic nightmare of uncertainty.

[a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x309]
Clicky - pops to bigger size.

Interesting photo...but if the neighborhood is so small, why didn't Treyvon Martin just run to his father's house?

Unfortunately (and as much as some people want to believe it's not) race is still an issue in many parts of the USA, especially in the South. A young black male running away from an authority figure could lead that authority figure to a presumption of guilt. Many times this leads to the young man "tripping" on his way to a squad car, whether or not he has done anything wrong.

Silly Jesus		2012-04-04 02:40:55 PM

AdmirableSnackbar: NiceBeaver: altrocks: Snagged this off a thread a couple weeks ago. Let's get some basic things worked out about location, time and placement before this turns into a solipsistic nightmare of uncertainty.

[a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x309]
Clicky - pops to bigger size.

Interesting photo...but if the neighborhood is so small, why didn't Treyvon Martin just run to his father's house?

Unfortunately (and as much as some people want to believe it's not) race is still an issue in many parts of the USA, especially in the South. A young black male running away from an authority figure could lead that authority figure to a presumption of guilt. Many times this leads to the young man "tripping" on his way to a squad car, whether or not he has done anything wrong.

Articulable reasonable suspicion plus flight (running away) is legally defined as probable cause.

So, the assumption that you would like to demean and make into racism is actually a recognized legal standard.

Mykeru		2012-04-04 02:41:15 PM

liam76: So now you are moving the goal posts from calling the law a "de-facto hunting license" for whites against blacks, to a "supposition that justice is unfairly applied due to race"?

No.

And you have no problem with your stance on that law and not knowing if more people are getting away with murder or are more innocent people who defended themselves not going to jail?

Yes.

This text is now purple: Is it worth pointing out that they ran that test three times, because the first and second attempts had conflicting results?

Nah, other people have access to Wikipedia too. If it was Urban Dictionary, then it might be useful to cut and paste.

liam76		2012-04-04 03:00:16 PM

Mykeru: liam76: So now you are moving the goal posts from calling the law a "de-facto hunting license" for whites against blacks, to a "supposition that justice is unfairly applied due to race"?

No.

So why bring up the much, much more lee hyperbolic supposition?

Mykeru: And you have no problem with your stance on that law and not knowing if more people are getting away with murder or are more innocent people who defended themselves not going to jail?

Yes.

Your not knowing the answer to that question makes your claimed knowledge of how it will work, especially wrt to it being a de-facto white on black hunting license, are incompatiable, but thatnks for playing I see I can't get an honest answer out of you.

liam76		2012-04-04 03:01:42 PM

liam76: Mykeru: liam76: So now you are moving the goal posts from calling the law a "de-facto hunting license" for whites against blacks, to a "supposition that justice is unfairly applied due to race"?

No.

So why bring up the much, much ~~more~~ lesse hyperbolic supposition?

oops.

AdmirableSnackbar		2012-04-04 03:11:07 PM

Silly Jesus: AdmirableSnackbar: NiceBeaver: altrocks: Snagged this off a thread a couple weeks ago. Let's get some basic things worked out about location, time and placement before this turns into a solipsistic nightmare of uncertainty.

[a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x309]
Clicky - pops to bigger size.

Interesting photo...but if the neighborhood is so small, why didn't Treyvon Martin just run to his father's house?

Unfortunately (and as much as some people want to believe it's not) race is still an issue in many parts of the USA, especially in the South. A young black male running away from an authority figure could lead that authority figure to a presumption of guilt. Many times this leads to the young man "tripping" on his way to a squad car, whether or not he has done anything wrong.

Articulable reasonable suspicion plus flight (running away) is legally defined as probable cause.

So, the assumption that you would like to demean and make into racism is actually a recognized legal standard.

And saying that in many areas of this nation being black alone could provide reasonable suspicion is not "demeaning" or "making into racism" the issue at hand. It is describing the nature of certain people. Or are we not in a post-"politically correct" world where we can say it like it is?

nickerj1		2012-04-04 03:12:38 PM

I yawn towards "expert" opinions and pick my nose in their general direction. That's just like your opinion, yo...

Show me the factual basis and I'll decide for myself.

MythDragon		2012-04-04 03:23:15 PM

CSB:

I see movement out my window one day during work hours (I have mondays off), and the are three black/african-american/gangsta/attractive nubians (what ever the proper term is these days) about 16-17 years old, walking down the street perpendicular to my house. Two would sit crosslegged in the exact middle of the street, and one would go ring the door bell. If no one would answer one would say something back to the others and one of them would write something down on a scrap of paper. Then the 1st would return to the group, they skip a house or two, and then again, two would sit in the middle of the street while one went up and rang the door bell.

I thought this was rather odd, so I called the police. I thought this might intrest them. Since this is in Petersburg, Va, it did not. (but if you fire an illegal tube-launched air-burst firework shell out your front door at 3am, they will be at your house in 3 minutes...trust me on this...)The dispatcher , in the most disinterested voice I've heard since I tried to explain how Final Fantasy 7 is much better than FF9 to my wife, asks if they were actualy hurting me. "Well, uh, no...but I don't think what they're doing is going to lead to anything good" '*sigh* I'll notify someone, call us back if you feel you are in danger'.
Cops never even bothered to drive by for so much as a cursory glace. Meanwhile the kids continued to canvas the entire neighborhood. There were a few break ins a couple of days later, but the cops didn't see a connection between the two incidents.

I had thought about going up to the kids and asking them WTF they were doing, but then I remembered that I am not a vigilante, and it is the cop's , not my, job to deal with those kind of things, and private citizens have no reason to get involved in things that do not concern them.

Silly Jesus		2012-04-04 03:27:37 PM

AdmirableSnackbar: Silly Jesus: AdmirableSnackbar: NiceBeaver: altrocks: Snagged this off a thread a couple weeks ago. Let's get some basic things worked out about location, time and placement before this turns into a solipsistic nightmare of uncertainty.

[a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x309]
Clicky - pops to bigger size.

Interesting photo...but if the neighborhood is so small, why didn't Treyvon Martin just run to his father's house?

Unfortunately (and as much as some people want to believe it's not) race is still an issue in many parts of the USA, especially in the South. A young black male running away from an authority figure could lead that authority figure to a presumption of guilt. Many times this leads to the young man "tripping" on his way to a squad car, whether or not he has done anything wrong.

Articulable reasonable suspicion plus flight (running away) is legally defined as probable cause.

So, the assumption that you would like to demean and make into racism is actually a recognized legal standard.

And saying that in many areas of this nation being black alone could provide reasonable suspicion is not "demeaning" or "making into racism" the issue at hand. It is describing the nature of certain people. Or are we not in a post-"politically correct" world where we can say it like it is?

In this instance we are talking about a young black male walking slowly and alone on a dark rainy night close to condos that had recently been broken into by young black male(s). That, to me, seems like reasonable cause for suspicion.

Aside from that, you have to realize that there is a huge gap in the statistical probability of one race and age cohort committing crimes when compared to all other groups. That's not racism, that's acknowledging reality and statistics. We make risk assessments in every facet of our lives on a daily basis, but this particular risk assessment is racist and we should just ignore all of the information about the topic that is readily available in the interest of sensitivity.

For the record, I don't think that skin color makes someone more or less prone to criminal activity. It does, however, mean that someone is more or less likely to be a member of a culture that is a literal and figurative breeding ground for crime. To ignore this in the name of feeling better about yourself is asinine.

HBK		2012-04-04 03:44:42 PM

enry: starsrift: Stand Your Ground isn't a license to go out and create confrontations, then end them with a firearm.

It worked for that guy in Texas.

Link (new window)

Joe Horn did the right thing. Unlike this case, Horn caught people in the act of committing a felony and they were on his property.

AdmirableSnackbar		2012-04-04 03:47:49 PM

Silly Jesus: In this instance we are talking about a young black male walking slowly and alone on a dark rainy night close to condos that had recently been broken into by young black male(s). That, to me, seems like reasonable cause for suspicion.

I have to give you the obligatory [citation needed] on the bold part. I've heard that there had been break-ins from articles (mostly citing what Zimmerman has said) but I don't recall seeing any information as to who was committing the alleged break-ins.

Aside from that, you have to realize that there is a huge gap in the statistical probability of one race and age cohort committing crimes when compared to all other groups. That's not racism, that's acknowledging reality and statistics. We make risk assessments in every facet of our lives on a daily basis, but this particular risk assessment is racist and we should just ignore all of the information about the topic that is readily available in the interest of sensitivity.

For the record, I don't think that skin color makes someone more or less prone to criminal activity. It does, however, mean that someone is more or less likely to be a member of a culture that is a literal and figurative breeding ground for crime. To ignore this in the name of feeling better about yourself is asinine.

Oh I realize that. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not some doe-eyed naive person who thinks that the police should treat every individual equally in order to be "sensitive". But in this instance, Martin's traning led him to the correct conclusion. Zimmerman suspected him on-sight of attempting to commit a crime (we know that from the 911 tapes). Had he run from his pursuer, Zimmerman would have even more reason to suspect him of guilt.

Remember, I'm answering the question of why Martin didn't run to his father's house. He didn't want to create an increased presumption of guilt by running.

HBK		2012-04-04 03:52:18 PM

halB: beefoe: rynthetyn: : rynthetyn:

Incidentally, I'm in law school in Florida at a law school that shall remain unnamed, last week they held a faculty panel discussion about the case. The former prosecutors and former defense attorneys on the panel all agreed that Zimmerman should be prosecuted, that given what we know he's probably guilty, but that there's almost no way that he's going to be convicted in Sanford for reasons that have nothing to do with his guilt or innocence and everything to do with Sanford's track record regarding race and the way that the cops handled it early on. It makes me sick that when Zimmerman inevitably gets away with murder after a racially charged media circus trial, all of the racists are going to use that as proof that black men and scary and violent and deserve to be shot.

I have say that I'm stunned by the comment "given what we know he's probably guilty" So the faculty of your law school thinks it's OK to prejudge the case based on media reports? That scares me. The media is not really interested in facts, just a story. If any group should be saying we should take this slow and wait for the grand jury and trial, I would hope it would be former prosecutors and defense attorneys.

He probably goes to St. Thomas.

I was thinking Cooley, FL Coastal, or FL International.

Silly Jesus		2012-04-04 03:53:25 PM

MythDragon: CSB:

I see movement out my window one day during work hours (I have mondays off), and the are three black/african-american/gangsta/attractive nubians (what ever the proper term is these days) about 16-17 years old, walking down the street perpendicular to my house. Two would sit crosslegged in the exact middle of the street, and one would go ring the door bell. If no one would answer one would say something back to the others and one of them would write something down on a scrap of paper. Then the 1st would return to the group, they skip a house or two, and then again, two would sit in the middle of the street while one went up and rang the door bell.

I thought this was rather odd, so I called the police. I thought this might intrest them. Since this is in Petersburg, Va, it did not. (but if you fire an illegal tube-launched air-burst firework shell out your front door at 3am, they will be at your house in 3 minutes...trust me on this...)The dispatcher , in the most disinterested voice I've heard since I tried to explain how Final Fantasy 7 is much better than FF9 to my wife, asks if they were actualy hurting me. "Well, uh, no...but I don't think what they're doing is going to lead to anything good" '*sigh* I'll notify someone, call us back if you feel you are in danger'.
Cops never even bothered to drive by for so much as a cursory glace. Meanwhile the kids continued to canvas the entire neighborhood. There were a few break ins a couple of days later, but the cops didn't see a connection between the two incidents.

I had thought about going up to the kids and asking them WTF they were doing, but then I remembered that I am not a vigilante, and it is the cop's , not my, job to deal with those kind of things, and private citizens have no reason to get involved in things that do not concern them.

You're such a racist for putting all of those clues together and figuring out that they were very obviously making a list of who is at home during a certain time of day for later burglaries. Why are you so racist? Why do you only see color? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

For all you know they were working for a doorbell repair company and testing doorbells so that they could later come by and ask the lady of the house if she would be interested in their doorbell repair package. OR, the other two guys were really shy and wanted to wait in the street while their brother went door to door to get cookie selling leads for his sister who is a girl scout (or would she be a brownie?...couldn't help myself).

How dare you use your reasoning abilities if the conclusion is going to be that a young black male may be involved in criminal activity.

This is unacceptable!

enry		2012-04-04 03:59:55 PM

HBK: enry: starsrift: Stand Your Ground isn't a license to go out and create confrontations, then end them with a firearm.

It worked for that guy in Texas.

Link (new window)

Joe Horn did the right thing. Unlike this case, Horn caught people in the act of committing a felony and they were on his property.

Article says he was a neighbor.

HBK		2012-04-04 04:09:23 PM

enry: HBK: enry: starsrift: Stand Your Ground isn't a license to go out and create confrontations, then end them with a firearm.

It worked for that guy in Texas.

Link (new window)

Joe Horn did the right thing. Unlike this case, Horn caught people in the act of committing a felony and they were on his property.

Article says he was a neighbor.

Yup. It his next door neighbor's home was burglarized. Horn blasted the burglars when they ran across Horn's yard.

enry		2012-04-04 04:21:53 PM

HBK: enry: HBK: enry: starsrift: Stand Your Ground isn't a license to go out and create confrontations, then end them with a firearm.

It worked for that guy in Texas.

Link (new window)

Joe Horn did the right thing. Unlike this case, Horn caught people in the act of committing a felony and they were on his property.

Article says he was a neighbor.

Yup. It his next door neighbor's home was burglarized. Horn blasted the burglars when they ran across Horn's yard.

*facepalm*

HBK		2012-04-04 04:37:26 PM

enry: HBK: enry: HBK: enry: starsrift: Stand Your Ground isn't a license to go out and create confrontations, then end them with a firearm.

It worked for that guy in Texas.

Link (new window)

Joe Horn did the right thing. Unlike this case, Horn caught people in the act of committing a felony and they were on his property.

Article says he was a neighbor.

Yup. It his next door neighbor's home was burglarized. Horn blasted the burglars when they ran across Horn's yard.

*facepalm*

It gives would-be burglars something to think about. I would want Joe Horn to be my neighbor.

NiceBeaver		2012-04-05 10:46:52 AM

AdmirableSnackbar: Silly Jesus: In this instance we are talking about a young black male walking slowly and alone on a dark rainy night close to condos that had recently been broken into by young black male(s). That, to me, seems like reasonable cause for suspicion.

I have to give you the obligatory [citation needed] on the bold part. I've heard that there had been break-ins from articles (mostly citing what Zimmerman has said) but I don't recall seeing any information as to who was committing the alleged break-ins.

Aside from that, you have to realize that there is a huge gap in the statistical probability of one race and age cohort committing crimes when compared to all other groups. That's not racism, that's acknowledging reality and statistics. We make risk assessments in every facet of our lives on a daily basis, but this particular risk assessment is racist and we should just ignore all of the information about the topic that is readily available in the interest of sensitivity.

For the record, I don't think that skin color makes someone more or less prone to criminal activity. It does, however, mean that someone is more or less likely to be a member of a culture that is a literal and figurative breeding ground for crime. To ignore this in the name of feeling better about yourself is asinine.

Oh I realize that. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not some doe-eyed naive person who thinks that the police should treat every individual equally in order to be "sensitive". But in this instance, Martin's traning led him to the correct conclusion. Zimmerman suspected him on-sight of attempting to commit a crime (we know that from the 911 tapes). Had he run from his pursuer, Zimmerman would have even more reason to suspect him of guilt.

Remember, I'm answering the question of why Martin didn't run to his father's house. He didn't want to create an increased presumption of guilt by running.

There is one MAJOR flaw to your reasoning. From both Zimmerman's call to 911 and Martin's call to his girlfriend, we know that Martin initially ran away from Zimmerman. If he was already running away, he was obviously unconcerned about the perception you hypothesize. Therefore, the question remains: Why didn't he just run home (dad's house, dad's fg's house, whatever)??

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