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(ESPN)   Reds give Joey Votto an albatross contract that they will seriously regret in a couple years   ( espn.go.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Joey Votto, Reds, albatross, Jay Bruce, Walt Jocketty, salary arbitration, nl mvp, Prince Fielder  
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898 clicks; posted to Sports » on 03 Apr 2012 at 11:29 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-03 10:12:16 AM  
This contract is due directly to the sale of the Dodgers for 2.15 billion. If the Dodgers were worth that much, then the Reds of the world are worth at least 1 billion. I thought the Yankees overpaid for Mark Texeria in 2009. Now it looks like they got the deal of the century.
 
2012-04-03 10:28:46 AM  
On the bright side for the Reds, they won't be the only ones. The contracts for Votto, Pujols, Fielder, etc. are probably fine for the first few years, but the last few could be really ugly.

And don't even get me started on Ryan Howard.
 
2012-04-03 10:38:28 AM  

FreakinB: On the bright side for the Reds, they won't be the only ones. The contracts for Votto, Pujols, Fielder, etc. are probably fine for the first few years, but the last few could be really ugly.

And don't even get me started on Ryan Howard.


I can understand Fielder and Pujols because they are at least in the AL and have the DH, but Votto and Howard make no sense what so ever. These guys aren't on steroids anymore, bodies breakdown. Mantle was out of the game by 36, Mel Ott last good year was at 33, so was Jimmie Foxx's. Hell, Stan Musial was back to average by 36.
 
2012-04-03 11:35:02 AM  
If the Reds win the World Series in the next 5 years, it would be worth it. If they don't, fark.

I was really surprised by this. The Reds don't do this sort of thing. Votto is a great player that I wanted to be a Red for life, but he isn't worth that much.
 
2012-04-03 11:35:37 AM  
Overspending on players? The Reds are now the anti-Bengals. Which should help fill a few seats in GABP, I'd think.
 
2012-04-03 11:45:30 AM  
You're exaggerating, subby. It will be like five years before they seriously regret it.
 
2012-04-03 11:46:32 AM  

FreakinB: On the bright side for the Reds, they won't be the only ones. The contracts for Votto, Pujols, Fielder, etc. are probably fine for the first few years, but the last few could be really ugly.

And don't even get me started on Ryan Howard.


How's Howard's extension even started yet?
 
2012-04-03 11:46:56 AM  
Still no cure for Dusty.
 
2012-04-03 11:52:52 AM  
To put it another way, he was just given a guaranteed contract worth more than twice the non-guaranteed contract that Tom Brady got.
 
2012-04-03 11:53:00 AM  
I think the dollar value is CND so it's really only like 50 bux USD.
 
2012-04-03 11:54:12 AM  

bacongood: How's Howard's extension even started yet?


Yup. This year, just in time for him to miss the first two months of the season, due to his Achilles surgery.
 
2012-04-03 11:54:35 AM  

Boondock3806: Still no cure for Dusty.


This.

Also, Ken Rosenthal wrote this trolltastic article (new window). I think this contract is a good move. The Reds (at least in the past 15 years) have rarely had a player of this caliber. I expected Votto to be a Yankee by now. To me, it shows the Reds' organization is serious about winning. 1990 was a long time ago. Let's make it happen!
 
2012-04-03 11:58:25 AM  

Lost Thought 00: To put it another way, he was just given a guaranteed contract worth more than twice the non-guaranteed contract that Tom Brady got.


When you take out "but plays 10 times as many games", that contract looks really bad. Excellent work!

/that being said, DAT CONTRACT is messed up
 
2012-04-03 12:01:54 PM  

WTF Indeed: I can understand Fielder and Pujols because they are at least in the AL and have the DH, but Votto and Howard make no sense what so ever


I think Votto's deal is overkill too, but Votto and Howard are completely different players (assuming both are healthy).

Howard's a low .BA, high SO thumper with little speed, making him a sure bet to decline steadily down the line. Votto though is a high .BA, reasonable SO rate hitter who also had a 16 SB year in 2010, and I would imagine by default would have better longevity than Howard.
 
2012-04-03 12:06:03 PM  
I hated the Reds for a while back in 2010 with the whole Cueto incident; now not so much. It'd be really nice to have one of these "old school" rivalries actually mean something.

/I'll go comfort myself with this fresh trophy
//12 in '12
 
2012-04-03 12:08:48 PM  
cincinnatiredlegs.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-04-03 12:16:35 PM  

grinding_journalist: I hated the Reds for a while back in 2010 with the whole Cueto incident; now not so much. It'd be really nice to have one of these "old school" rivalries actually mean something.

/I'll go comfort myself with this fresh trophy
//12 in '12


Brandon Phillips to St. Louis in '13?
 
2012-04-03 12:18:09 PM  
Votto is a farking stud who's criminally overlooked by everyone because he's not in Boston or New York. Good for him and good for the Reds(if they can manage to hold any other talent)
 
2012-04-03 12:32:39 PM  

regindyn: Lost Thought 00: To put it another way, he was just given a guaranteed contract worth more than twice the non-guaranteed contract that Tom Brady got.

When you take out "but plays 10 times as many games", that contract looks really bad. Excellent work!

/that being said, DAT CONTRACT is messed up


10 times as many games, but participates for roughly 1/10th less time during each game, so it evens out in terms of work load
 
2012-04-03 12:41:07 PM  
The comments/flamewar on ESPN article are epic. Not >Tebow awesomesauce, but quality lulz.

///ESPNs Clandestine Anonymous SourceMan: youll dont know how meen it iz out on deez streetz. str8 thug life homeey

MadDog2OO7: I call bullshirt

drinking beer with cutler: I call bullshiat as well

VaiVaiVai: Learn some English, then get back to us

MadDog2OO7: Tell him, Steve

McCarty Destroyed Lemieux: I know, I've seen The Wire

TheJoeGreeneLU: Does your mom know your posting from the basement instead of looking for a job

VaiVaiVai: ...and come back when you get some hair between your legs!

TRANSATION: youze sta awaze til yuze gets som haer ons yer dik

///Epic
 
2012-04-03 12:42:57 PM  

WTF Indeed: These guys aren't on steroids anymore, bodies breakdown. Mantle was out of the game by 36, Mel Ott last good year was at 33, so was Jimmie Foxx's. Hell, Stan Musial was back to average by 36


I don't have the wherewithal to pull the comparables over history for Joey Votto, but that's kind of a weak argument. Medical technology has progressed radically since the days of Mantle (and especially Jimmie f*cking Foxx), and players aren't doing shiat like painting houses in the offseason anymore. Also, these guys aren't on currently detectable steroids at the moment.

I get that bodies do wear down and that Joey Votto at the end of this contract is not worth the same as Joey Votto today. But overpaying over the life of a contract for an established player's productive years seems to be the business model these days. Whether or not the Reds regret this contract remains to be seen.
 
2012-04-03 12:45:10 PM  

Lost Thought 00: regindyn: Lost Thought 00: To put it another way, he was just given a guaranteed contract worth more than twice the non-guaranteed contract that Tom Brady got.

When you take out "but plays 10 times as many games", that contract looks really bad. Excellent work!

/that being said, DAT CONTRACT is messed up

10 times as many games, but participates for roughly 1/10th less time during each game, so it evens out in terms of work load


And, of course, there's that whole business of offseason workouts, in-season workouts, film study, greater exertion while playing, increased injury risk....
 
2012-04-03 12:52:53 PM  
I can't wait til 2020, when the only team without a crippling 10 year contracted player will be the Pittsburgh Pirates, and the hot free agent of the day will have no choice but to sign there.
 
2012-04-03 12:58:23 PM  

hbk72777: I can't wait til 2020, when the only team without a crippling 10 year contracted player will be the Pittsburgh Pirates, and the hot free agent of the day will have no choice but to sign there.


MLB will create an expansion team owned by Scott Boras before they let that happen.
 
2012-04-03 01:14:28 PM  

Mr. Potatoass: grinding_journalist: I hated the Reds for a while back in 2010 with the whole Cueto incident; now not so much. It'd be really nice to have one of these "old school" rivalries actually mean something.

/I'll go comfort myself with this fresh trophy
//12 in '12

Brandon Phillips to St. Louis in '13?


Never happen. Cards use 2nd base to control payroll.

JC
 
2012-04-03 01:16:53 PM  
Your honor my only piece of evidence. Let it be marked exhibit A: The contract of one Lee, Carlos

/100 million
//FAAAAAAT!
 
2012-04-03 01:35:20 PM  
TSN is gonna have a field day with this: OMG! Votto becomes highest-paid Canadian athlete EVAR!!1

/Apparently Jason Bay was the reigning king, at a mere $18.5M
 
2012-04-03 01:35:20 PM  

WTF Indeed: This contract is due directly to the sale of the Dodgers for 2.15 billion. If the Dodgers were worth that much, then the Reds of the world are worth at least 1 billion. I thought the Yankees overpaid for Mark Texeria in 2009. Now it looks like they got the deal of the century.


The Reds own valuable real estate in Los Angeles?
 
2012-04-03 01:43:33 PM  

Cagey B: WTF Indeed: These guys aren't on steroids anymore, bodies breakdown. Mantle was out of the game by 36, Mel Ott last good year was at 33, so was Jimmie Foxx's. Hell, Stan Musial was back to average by 36

I don't have the wherewithal to pull the comparables over history for Joey Votto, but that's kind of a weak argument. Medical technology has progressed radically since the days of Mantle (and especially Jimmie f*cking Foxx), and players aren't doing shiat like painting houses in the offseason anymore. Also, these guys aren't on currently detectable steroids at the moment.

I get that bodies do wear down and that Joey Votto at the end of this contract is not worth the same as Joey Votto today. But overpaying over the life of a contract for an established player's productive years seems to be the business model these days. Whether or not the Reds regret this contract remains to be seen.


Votto and Pujols are play the same position, are similar in age, and now in contract. Here's historical comparables in terms of hitting for each:

Pujols:
-Jimmie Fox*
-Ken Griffey
-Frank Robinson*
-Hank Aaron*
-Lou Gehrig*
-Mickey Mantle*
-Mel Ott*
-Juan Gonzalez
-Willie Mays*
-Manny Ramirez

Votto:
-Jeff Bagwell
-Matt Holliday
-Lance Berkman
-Wally Berger
-Mo Vaughn
-Adrian Gonzalez
-Tim Salmon
-Albert Belle
-Tony Clark
-Magglio Ordonez

*signifies Hall of Famer

Now, as a Texas Rangers fan I thought the Pujols deal was insane when he signed with the Angels, but now it looks pretty good, considering Pujols can at least DH in his twilight years.

/Texas Rangers...2012 World Series Champs
//3rd times a charm
 
2012-04-03 01:57:06 PM  

smlinarich: Votto and Pujols are play the same position, are similar in age, and now in contract. Here's historical comparables in terms of hitting for each:


Votto is 28 and Pujols is 32, and Votto was better over the last two years. Pujols will have a better career, for sure, but over the next 10? It wouldn't surprise me if the end of Votto's deal looks a lot better than Pujols's 5 years from now.
 
2012-04-03 02:00:45 PM  
I have a feeling that Votto will be able to DH for the Reds in his twilight years too.
 
2012-04-03 02:11:49 PM  

you have pee hands: smlinarich: Votto and Pujols are play the same position, are similar in age, and now in contract. Here's historical comparables in terms of hitting for each:

Votto is 28 and Pujols is 32, and Votto was better over the last two years. Pujols will have a better career, for sure, but over the next 10? It wouldn't surprise me if the end of Votto's deal looks a lot better than Pujols's 5 years from now.


Over the last two years they are very close, in terms of WAR 12.5 for Pujols and 12.4 for Votto. I'm not saying Votto is not a great player but the contract seems bloated. Plus the Reds had Votto locked up for 2 more years already, contract seems premature in my opinion. Keep in mind I'm always leary of these long expensive contracts no matter who the player is.
 
2012-04-03 02:13:51 PM  
The number of years is insane.
 
2012-04-03 02:23:39 PM  
smlinarich

Pujols and Votto are not "similar in age". They were 31 and 27 respectively last year. That is a huge difference. I think locking up Votto thru age ~38 is insane too, but not horribly so.

Pujols will be 41 the last year of his deal.
 
2012-04-03 02:29:46 PM  

smlinarich: Votto and Pujols are play the same position, are similar in age, and now in contract. Here's historical comparables in terms of hitting for each:


No. No they aren't.
 
2012-04-03 02:37:48 PM  
I was really surprised by this. This contract has Yankee, Red Socks, Cubs numbers on it, but it's coming from the Reds. Crazy.

It appears that they are really serious about winning, which as a Reds fan born in 89 and still has to claim ownership of the 90 World Series, I have to appreciate it since there hasnt been much since.

It also means that there is no way in Hell Philips gets an extension. Hopefully the farm system they appear to have gutted to add Latos and others this off season isnt too gutted. With so much money tied up into Votto they really cant afford to be a player in free agency anymore (not like they usually were before).
 
2012-04-03 02:40:48 PM  
I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that 27-31 or 28-32 isn't as big of a gap as everyone seems to think it is. It's a sliding scale in this range not so much, but the difference between 32 and 36 is huge. Is the difference between 24 and 28 huge? With that said a 31 and a 27 year old put up almost identical numbers the last two years. Point was to compare similar players and contracts. Again, Votto is a great player and Pujols is elite, I guess the difference between great and elite is $25 million. Also, why jump the gun on the extension when he doesn't hit Free Agency unitl 2014?
 
2012-04-03 02:46:01 PM  

JohnKimble63: Ken Rosenthal wrote this trolltastic article (new window).


Thanks for outing it as a Rosenthal article so I don't waste the click.
 
2012-04-03 02:49:08 PM  

smlinarich: I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that 27-31 or 28-32 isn't as big of a gap as everyone seems to think it is. It's a sliding scale in this range not so much, but the difference between 32 and 36 is huge. Is the difference between 24 and 28 huge? With that said a 31 and a 27 year old put up almost identical numbers the last two years. Point was to compare similar players and contracts. Again, Votto is a great player and Pujols is elite, I guess the difference between great and elite is $25 million. Also, why jump the gun on the extension when he doesn't hit Free Agency unitl 2014?


27-31 (or thereabouts) are pretty much a hitter's best years. You have to look at it as past-his-peak Pujols vs. peak Votto.
 
2012-04-03 02:59:48 PM  

smlinarich: I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that 27-31 or 28-32 isn't as big of a gap as everyone seems to think it is. It's a sliding scale in this range not so much, but the difference between 32 and 36 is huge. Is the difference between 24 and 28 huge? With that said a 31 and a 27 year old put up almost identical numbers the last two years. Point was to compare similar players and contracts. Again, Votto is a great player and Pujols is elite, I guess the difference between great and elite is $25 million. Also, why jump the gun on the extension when he doesn't hit Free Agency unitl 2014?


It's not so much that the difference between performance at 28 and performance at 32 is so big, but the fact that Pujols's contract is ages 32-42 while Vottos is 28-38. You're getting Votto's age 28-32 years instead of Pujols's 38-42, which is a big difference.

I agree with you that signing these gigantic extensions really early seems dumb for the teams. The Phillies wouldn't have had to pay Howard anywhere near $150m if they'd waited until this offseason since he's injured and clearly past his peak.

Maybe it makes the guy feel bad; so what? Nothing a 9 figure contract won't fix.
 
2012-04-03 03:03:30 PM  

FreakinB: smlinarich: I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that 27-31 or 28-32 isn't as big of a gap as everyone seems to think it is. It's a sliding scale in this range not so much, but the difference between 32 and 36 is huge. Is the difference between 24 and 28 huge? With that said a 31 and a 27 year old put up almost identical numbers the last two years. Point was to compare similar players and contracts. Again, Votto is a great player and Pujols is elite, I guess the difference between great and elite is $25 million. Also, why jump the gun on the extension when he doesn't hit Free Agency unitl 2014?

27-31 (or thereabouts) are pretty much a hitter's best years. You have to look at it as past-his-peak Pujols vs. peak Votto.


Ok let's look at Fielder and Votto, now these guys are the same age. Fielder signs a 9/214 million, Votto signs 10/225 million. Looking at their numbers Votto is better, he got more money, great. The fact of the matter is that these long, inflated contracts are going to hurt the team in the long run. Look what that A-Rod contract did to the Rangers ( and Tom Hicks, but that's another story). The bottom line is that it's too much money for too long, in the case of Fielder, Votto, and Pujols.
 
2012-04-03 03:26:19 PM  

you have pee hands: smlinarich: I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that 27-31 or 28-32 isn't as big of a gap as everyone seems to think it is. It's a sliding scale in this range not so much, but the difference between 32 and 36 is huge. Is the difference between 24 and 28 huge? With that said a 31 and a 27 year old put up almost identical numbers the last two years. Point was to compare similar players and contracts. Again, Votto is a great player and Pujols is elite, I guess the difference between great and elite is $25 million. Also, why jump the gun on the extension when he doesn't hit Free Agency unitl 2014?

It's not so much that the difference between performance at 28 and performance at 32 is so big, but the fact that Pujols's contract is ages 32-42 while Vottos is 28-38. You're getting Votto's age 28-32 years instead of Pujols's 38-42, which is a big difference.

I agree with you that signing these gigantic extensions really early seems dumb for the teams. The Phillies wouldn't have had to pay Howard anywhere near $150m if they'd waited until this offseason since he's injured and clearly past his peak.

Maybe it makes the guy feel bad; so what? Nothing a 9 figure contract won't fix.


You're kind of forgetting that they already had him signed through next season. The new deal is for ages 30-39 in light of that and that they had the leverage and still ended up giving him the largest non-FA deal ever it looks bad.
 
2012-04-03 03:35:16 PM  

veistran: you have pee hands: smlinarich: I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that 27-31 or 28-32 isn't as big of a gap as everyone seems to think it is. It's a sliding scale in this range not so much, but the difference between 32 and 36 is huge. Is the difference between 24 and 28 huge? With that said a 31 and a 27 year old put up almost identical numbers the last two years. Point was to compare similar players and contracts. Again, Votto is a great player and Pujols is elite, I guess the difference between great and elite is $25 million. Also, why jump the gun on the extension when he doesn't hit Free Agency unitl 2014?

It's not so much that the difference between performance at 28 and performance at 32 is so big, but the fact that Pujols's contract is ages 32-42 while Vottos is 28-38. You're getting Votto's age 28-32 years instead of Pujols's 38-42, which is a big difference.

I agree with you that signing these gigantic extensions really early seems dumb for the teams. The Phillies wouldn't have had to pay Howard anywhere near $150m if they'd waited until this offseason since he's injured and clearly past his peak.

Maybe it makes the guy feel bad; so what? Nothing a 9 figure contract won't fix.

You're kind of forgetting that they already had him signed through next season. The new deal is for ages 30-39 in light of that and that they had the leverage and still ended up giving him the largest non-FA deal ever it looks bad.


I think we're on the same page here...I thought he was signed for 2012 AND 2013, and would not be a FA until 2014.
 
2012-04-03 03:57:43 PM  

you have pee hands: I agree with you that signing these gigantic extensions really early seems dumb for the teams. The Phillies wouldn't have had to pay Howard anywhere near $150m if they'd waited until this offseason since he's injured and clearly past his peak.


The problem is that Howard has never been a great hitter. He's just had good power when he's connected, like Reynolds and Dunn(and somewhat like Swisher and now Trumbo so far). Except Reynolds and Dunn aren't getting paid like Howard(and Reynolds is better on defense at a harder to fill defensive position, too). Howard was overpaid. I don't think Votto or Pujols were, considering their tangibles are more than just hitting for power when they connect. They are much better hitters than Howard, well rounded with a more complete skillset.
 
2012-04-03 04:15:14 PM  

Loomy: TSN is gonna have a field day with this: OMG! Votto becomes highest-paid Canadian athlete EVAR!!1

/Apparently Jason Bay was the reigning king, at a mere $18.5M


I think Villenueve was making ~$35M a year with McClaren before he forgot how to drive a race car.
 
2012-04-03 04:19:48 PM  

devioustrevor: Loomy: TSN is gonna have a field day with this: OMG! Votto becomes highest-paid Canadian athlete EVAR!!1

/Apparently Jason Bay was the reigning king, at a mere $18.5M

I think Villenueve was making ~$35M a year with McClaren before he forgot how to drive a race car.


I also seem to recall hearing Dana White saying Georges St.-Pierre is the highest paid Canadian athlete in the world. That would probably be including endorsements. He's one of the few guys in UFC that gets a cut of the PPV money and I recall reading somewhere that right now between his cut of PPV, appearance fee plus contract fight money he's getting $8-$10M per fight.
 
2012-04-03 04:30:09 PM  

nmhansen: I have a feeling that Votto will be able to DH for the Reds in his twilight years too.


i690.photobucket.com
 
2012-04-03 04:35:32 PM  

Crewmannumber6: nmhansen: I have a feeling that Votto will be able to DH for the Reds in his twilight years too.

[i690.photobucket.com image 172x200]


I might be willing to bet money (if I had any, which I don't) that the next CBA will have the DH in the NL. Remember, with the Astros moving to the AL, we get interleague all season long. That's gonna screw up a lot of AL teams with full time DHs, so they'll push for the change. And the MLBPA would LOVE adding the DH: that's 15 more full-time jobs.

If you have the MLBPA and a quarter to a half of the owners all agreeing on something...decent chance it happens.
 
2012-04-03 04:41:27 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Crewmannumber6: nmhansen: I have a feeling that Votto will be able to DH for the Reds in his twilight years too.

[i690.photobucket.com image 172x200]

I might be willing to bet money (if I had any, which I don't) that the next CBA will have the DH in the NL. Remember, with the Astros moving to the AL, we get interleague all season long. That's gonna screw up a lot of AL teams with full time DHs, so they'll push for the change. And the MLBPA would LOVE adding the DH: that's 15 more full-time jobs.

If you have the MLBPA and a quarter to a half of the owners all agreeing on something...decent chance it happens.


Exactly. I'm definitely convinced we will see the DH in the NL within the next 10 years.
 
2012-04-03 04:50:37 PM  

nmhansen: Exactly. I'm definitely convinced we will see the DH in the NL within the next 10 years.


The only reason I don't think it's a definite is because I'm fairly sure Selig will be around for 30 or 40 more years, and I can't see him allowing that change.
 
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