Scerpes: SoCalSurfer: Smeegle and scerpes are the same person!

YES!! You've found us out!!

Indeed, we've been talking to ourselves all this time.
Sssh, I think I here the nurse coming.

porterm: just leaving these here for your perusal.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/07/the_knockout_game_racial_viole n ce_and_the_conspicuous_silence_of_the_media.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/24/police-aim-to-crack-down-on-viol e nt-new-trend-knock-out/

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/knockout-game-case-shocked-s t -louis-then-fell-apart/article_cdf5032a-b65e-51e0-a84e-de0f0ce0c5f8.ht ml

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078484/Knockout-King-The-sic k ening-game-claiming-lives-country.html

Do you have anything from a website that isn't dedicated to sensationalist fiction? I have trouble getting absorbed into a narrative that is on the same caliber as Twilight, and those links you "provided" (seriously, what's with the spaces in the URLs? Is that a Fark formatting thing now?) all come from organizations that thrive more on fantasy than WoW players. So, color me skeptical, but I'd like to see something about that by a source that could conceivably be called objective, or at the very least impartial.

kab: In other murder news, 2 chicks stabbed a taxi driver for less than $40 in fares, and the collective opinion is that it's a shame they aren't legal yet. Outrage? Zero.

Amazing.

It's almost as there's one significant difference between this story and that one - a difference that might account for the outrage discrepancy you're observing.

Almost.

porterm: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/07/the_knockout_game_racial_viole n ce_and_the_conspicuous_silence_of_the_media.html

Most Americans have heard of recent violent "flash mobs," which are the bands of black teens that attack mostly white victims and white businesses

I don't think that flash mobs are bands of black teens that attack whites, but if that sort of bizarre race-baiting game is what American Thinker wants to play at, I suppose it's as good journalism as claiming Mass Effect is, well, whatever the fark this is:

It's called "Mass Effect" and it allows its players... to engage in the most realistic sex acts ever conceived. One can custom design the shape, form, bodies, race, hair style, breast size of the images they wish to "engage" and then watch in crystal clear, LCD, 54 inch screen, HD clarity as the video game "persons" hump in every form, format, multiple, gender-oriented possibility they can think of [...] And because of the digital chip age in which we live - "Mass Effect" can be customized to sodomize whatever, whoever, however, the game player wishes. [...] With it's "over the net" capabilities virtual orgasmic rape is just the push of a button away.

Oh, and of course, how could we forget the very subject of this thread, every computer graphics, videographer, photographer, and forensic analyst's wet dream, the much-vaunted enhance button.

God I love reporting. It's like the child molester of politics. A lot of marching in anti-child abuse awareness rallies, then going home and farking your daughter. Pretend to care about the truth, and then murder it.

Hobodeluxe: Scerpes: Hobodeluxe: unless he was looking for a dark alley between the buildings away from security cameras and streetlights. hell trayvon was only almost to where he was staying. from the girlfriend's account of the phone call Zimmerman yelled "hey what are you doing here?" causing trayvon to stop trayvon said "why are you following me?" then she heard a scuffle and the phone went dead.

Yeah....that's not true. She says that Martin called out to Zimmerman first, and that Zimmerman responded.

yeah that's right Trayvon asked him "why are you following me?" first. He thought he had lost him but somehow Zimmerman caught back up to him.

The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

bugontherug: What kind of a person whispers "f*cking coons" during a recorded conversation with police while stalking a black kid?

A grade "A" Asshat

bugontherug: Happened pretty fast, panicky trigger finger in a nerdy wanna be cop's hand is dangerous.

What kind of a person whispers "f*cking coons" during a recorded conversation with police while stalking a black kid?

If that's what he actually said, you know exactly what kind.

Seriously, can't people just chill out for a while. Perhaps the local police farked up, but that the Feds and that state's attorney are looking at this and if we just calm down for a bit of time, the truth will come out. I know it sucks not to have immediate answers to everything like on "the google" but justice takes some time. Soon enough we'll be able to determine:

- Do the actual photos of Zimmerman, rather than grainy enhanced video, show wounds consistent with the story.
- Does the forensic evidence that will show that Trayvon was shot at point blank range, or from a distance
- Do eyewitness accounts show guy in red on top of guy in white or vice versa
- Was one round fired or more
- Was body found near SUV or not near
- etc.

Justice is slow, imperfect and often frustrating.


BTW - what the fark happened to FARK? I used to enjoy the intelligent banter on this site regarding issues large and small and it was generally respectful. Yes go ahead and look me up. I've been around here for a while.

Weaver95: Looks like Zimmerman was accorded more than a little courtesy by the judical system on this one.

Get Out Of Jail, Free card v.s. the Race card.
Interesting play.

Xenomech: This case is a fascinating example of the media's ability to manipulate the opinions of the masses. It's amazing how little it takes to trick people into rooting for the drug dealer and reviling the neighborhood watch volunteer.

I love the pic you posted. It makes it easy to pick out the trolls.

Runs_With_Scissors_: And this:

Lawyers for Martin's family sent a letter to the Justice Department today asking that the federal probe into the killing look into the fact that Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee met with State Attorney Norm Wolfinger on the night of shooting. Lawyer Benjamin Crump also claims in the letter that members of Zimmerman's family were also present in the police station that night.

Wolfinger has denied it, and actually called it a lie.

Scerpes: smeegle: Scerpes: Oh, come on. That's a little far fetched.

I think the timeline was about 13 minutes or so. I don't think he had time to fiddlefart around with the body.
I think he grabbed Martin and Martin fought back, out came the gun, Martin cried for help then Blammo.
Oops someone jumped the gun.
Maybe Mr. Watchguy panicked and used poor judgement. He could have pulled the gun and said "hold up son, I don't want to have to shoot ya."

Happened pretty fast, panicky trigger finger in a nerdy wanna be cop's hand is dangerous.


13 minutes is quite a long time for a fight.

where did you get that the fight lasted 13 min?

Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

Good question. He told his girlfriend he wasn't going to run but he was going to "walk fast".
I don't think we have all the info and the police do have stuff sealed for now and that's why it's a big puzzle.

Hobodeluxe: Scerpes: smeegle: Scerpes: Oh, come on. That's a little far fetched.

I think the timeline was about 13 minutes or so. I don't think he had time to fiddlefart around with the body.
I think he grabbed Martin and Martin fought back, out came the gun, Martin cried for help then Blammo.
Oops someone jumped the gun.
Maybe Mr. Watchguy panicked and used poor judgement. He could have pulled the gun and said "hold up son, I don't want to have to shoot ya."

Happened pretty fast, panicky trigger finger in a nerdy wanna be cop's hand is dangerous.


13 minutes is quite a long time for a fight.

where did you get that the fight lasted 13 min?

I didn't. Smeegle did. It's in the part i quoted.

Mrbogey: bugontherug: If the evidence is as I stated it, it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, it's the only reasonable inference. Certainly, it is sufficient to permit a jury to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman instigated the fight. See also my follow up post.

If Zimmerman in fact lied to the police about screaming for help, he is in big trouble.


And he may very well be.

Let me state this unequivocally. If it can be shown the Zimmerman started the physical confrontation or shot Martin after the confrontation ended, then I'll agree manslaughter should definitely be the conviction.

If it can be shown Martin started the physical fight and Zimmerman shot him while it was continuing, I'll disagree.

Those are my goalposts. I'm not going to move them.

It may very well hinge on the audio. But until a rigorous forensic analysis and defense of it is posted, I think the case isn't settled. As is I think there's enough reasonable doubt to keep Zimmerman out of jail.

Have you listened to the 911 tape with the voice screaming for help? It is haunting. Two independent forensic analyses of the tape concluded it was not Zimmerman's voice. They could not conclusively say it was Trayvon's voice because they did not have a sample of it. But process of elimination isn't hard here.

Trayvon Martin died terrified for his life and screaming for help. The tapes make me think Zimmerman had the upper hand when he shot the boy.

ThrobblefootSpectre: Kome: Impossible to convict someone when they haven't even been arrested yet for admitting to shooting an unarmed 17-year-old to death.

I'm using convict in the more general sense of declaring someone guilty. It's okay. Really.

See my above post about due process and why he can't be arrested without charges, as some people want. You'll see that I agree with you.

1 Dead 17-year old with a gunshot wound to the chest
+
1 Armed Suspect, gun matches the bullet, admits to the killing
=
Charges: Agg. Assault, Manslaughter/Murder

Zimmerman should have been detained, released, and given a court date to prove self-defense. That would be due process. Why is this difficult?

1. Nowhere to hide

The path from 1111 Retreat View Circle, the clubhouse inside the gated Retreat at Twin Lakes townhome complex, where Zimmerman told police he first spotted a suspicious person, to the backyard walkway where Trayvon died, has no hiding places. Trayvon would have walked along the curved Twin Trees road that leads off Retreat View Circle, out in the open between the front-facing, connected townhouses on both sides of the street. He would have then veered onto a sidewalk that runs behind the houses to a straight lane leading to the home of his father's girlfriend. Because the homes and back yards are connected, there are no alleys or places to hide, let alone to lay in wait. The killing happened just two or three houses in, about 120 yards from Trayvon's intended destination. It would seem nearly impossible for Zimmerman to have lost sight of the teen based on the physical layout.

2. What's in the 1-minute gap?

Sanford police have admitted that there is a 1-minute gap in the 911 call tape between Zimmerman's last communications with dispatchers and the time he is believed to have come in contact with Martin. Both Zimmerman's supporters and Trayvon's then-girlfriend claim the two exchanged words before the shooting. If that audio is not lost, will the audio be of Zimmerman asking "what are you doing here," as the girlfriend claims, or Trayvon asking, "do you have a problem? You do now," as Oliver relates on Zimmerman's behalf.

3. What made Trayvon run?

Zimmerman told dispatchers the person he spotted was coming toward him, and then, moments later, he said the person was running. I talked to a veteran Florida police officer not connected to this case, who raised the question: Why? Did Trayvon see the gun and decide to flee? Or did he simply see Zimmerman get out of his car and run in fear? And once he decided to run, why wouldn't a fleeing Trayvon simply keep running, given that he had a straight, unobstructed path to home and safety? Is it logical to assume he stopped running in order to double back and pursue the person he had been running from?

4. The 180 degree body

If the teen was kneeling, presumably, on top of George Zimmerman, punching him or slamming his head into the concrete walkway between the facing backyards, how did Trayvon wind up lying face down with HIS feet on the sidewalk and his face in the grass? If Zimmerman's account is true, shouldn't Trayvon's body have wound up with his face toward the sidewalk and his feet in the grass? Even if, after the gunshot, Trayvon fell on top of Zimmerman and the larger man pushed him off, why didn't the body land face up, beside Zimmerman, rather than a 180 degree turn from the sidewalk -- and flipped over?

5. The un-broken nose

The police reports indicate Zimmerman was treated at the scene for bleeding from or on his nose and the back of his head. But if his nose was really broken, why did that information not appear in the police reports? And if Zimmerman was treated for a broken nose, when did the treatment take place, and where?

6. Shifting stories

Zimmerman's story has shifted over time. Initially, leaks suggested Zimmerman told police he confronted the teen, was punched in the face and dropped to the ground. This week, the Orlando Sentinel reported Zimmerman's claim that he was no longer pursuing Trayvon and was followed back to his car (which cannot have been driven to the backyard lane where the shooting took place.) Zimmerman's account has varied from claims that he was being pummeled in the face while on the ground to saying his head was being bashed into the sidewalk. Oliver told theGrio and other news outlets that Zimmerman told him there was a struggle for the gun, and that Zimmerman shot Trayvon to save his life. But in later interviews, he has hinted that Trayvon may have been shot by accident.

As one lawyer for Trayvon's family, Natalie Jackson, said Tuesday on MSNBC, Zimmerman's supporters appear to be shopping a defense to the public, and to potential jurors.

7. Arrest or no arrest?

Police reports indicate Zimmerman was placed into the back of a patrol car on the night of the shooting, and taken to the station. As one law enforcement veteran not connected to the Trayvon Martin case told me: if George Zimmerman couldn't -- or didn't feel he could -- tell the police officers at any time that he wished to get out of the patrol car and go home, he was effectively arrested, even though he was not subsequently charged.

smeegle: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

Good question. He told his girlfriend he wasn't going to run but he was going to "walk fast".

and we believe the girlfriend more than any other interested party, why?

.

cleek: arrest the farker. make him prove his side of the story.

Yes! Prove yourself innocent! It's the american way!

Brainsick: 1 Dead 17-year old with a gunshot wound to the chest
+
1 Armed Suspect, gun matches the bullet, admits to the killing
=
Charges: Agg. Assault, Manslaughter/Murder


Zimmerman should have been detained, released, and given a court date to prove self-defense. That would be due process. Why is this difficult?

So, you mean other than the court date, exactly what happened? More than that, the state attorney was set to go to grand jury.

Weaver95: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

he might not have seen Zimmerman as a threat, at least not at first. if he was distracted and on the phone with his girlfriend, its possible that he missed the warning signs of Zimmerman psyching himself up for a fight.

That's not what I mean. He was running. Away. Why did he stop?

tenpoundsofcheese: smeegle: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

Good question. He told his girlfriend he wasn't going to run but he was going to "walk fast".

and we believe the girlfriend more than any other interested party, why?

.

Zimmerman even told the 911 dispatcher that Martin was running.

bugontherug: Have you listened to the 911 tape with the voice screaming for help? It is haunting. Two independent forensic analyses of the tape concluded it was not Zimmerman's voice. They could not conclusively say it was Trayvon's voice because they did not have a sample of it. But process of elimination isn't hard here.

Trayvon Martin died terrified for his life and screaming for help. The tapes make me think Zimmerman had the upper hand when he shot the boy.


I truly believe that's when Zimmerman pulled the gun and Trayvon probably tried to grab it and that's when the kid was screaming help.

Scerpes: Weaver95: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

he might not have seen Zimmerman as a threat, at least not at first. if he was distracted and on the phone with his girlfriend, its possible that he missed the warning signs of Zimmerman psyching himself up for a fight.

That's not what I mean. He was running. Away. Why did he stop?

he thought he had lost Zimmerman

Scerpes: bugontherug: Happened pretty fast, panicky trigger finger in a nerdy wanna be cop's hand is dangerous.

What kind of a person whispers "f*cking coons" during a recorded conversation with police while stalking a black kid?

If that's what he actually said, you know exactly what kind.

I believe this was a racist hate crime. Zimmerman was pissed off because he thought "the coons" were burglarizing his neighborhood. So when he saw Trayvon walking down the street, he cooked up a story about how Trayvon "ran away" upon Zimmerman seeing him. He wanted to tag Trayvon as a suspicious character to support the self-defense claim he intended to make. I can't say why he whispered "f*cking coons" during the 911 call. My best guess is he wanted to be caught.

Hobodeluxe: where did you get that the fight lasted 13 min?

Ya he got it from me and I got it from the big bad medeeyah. The 911 call time line and when the cops showed up and then when they had Zimmerman back at the station.

Hobodeluxe: Scerpes: Weaver95: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

he might not have seen Zimmerman as a threat, at least not at first. if he was distracted and on the phone with his girlfriend, its possible that he missed the warning signs of Zimmerman psyching himself up for a fight.

That's not what I mean. He was running. Away. Why did he stop?

he thought he had lost Zimmerman

That's possible. But then how did Zimmerman get between him and his house?

Rincewind53: The "Knockout King" thing is real, has been widely covered in the media, and completely and totally irrelevant to any discussion in this case whatsoever. So that guy's just posting to distract people, ignore him. Or seal him, like I did.

I know it's irrelevant, but to be honest all of the relevant information has already been posted so far. So at this point it's just trolling, goofing around with trolls to kill time, or not realizing you're being trolled. I hadn't heard of this before, but just looking at the sites he's linking I can't help but be amused at between 5 sites there isn't 1 ounce of journalistic integrity to be found, so I figure I'd voice my skepticism.

Weaver95: Scerpes: Weaver95: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

he might not have seen Zimmerman as a threat, at least not at first. if he was distracted and on the phone with his girlfriend, its possible that he missed the warning signs of Zimmerman psyching himself up for a fight.

That's not what I mean. He was running. Away. Why did he stop?

are we sure he was running away? so far the only one who says Martin was running is Zimmerman, and he's got a couple/few good reasons to distort the events of that night.

I don't see how that one helps Zimmerman. Martin told his girlfriend he was going to walk fast. Regardless, somehow Zimmerman got between Martin and his house.

Hobodeluxe: bugontherug: Have you listened to the 911 tape with the voice screaming for help? It is haunting. Two independent forensic analyses of the tape concluded it was not Zimmerman's voice. They could not conclusively say it was Trayvon's voice because they did not have a sample of it. But process of elimination isn't hard here.

Trayvon Martin died terrified for his life and screaming for help. The tapes make me think Zimmerman had the upper hand when he shot the boy.


I truly believe that's when Zimmerman pulled the gun and Trayvon probably tried to grab it and that's when the kid was screaming help.

Plausible theory.

smeegle: Hobodeluxe: where did you get that the fight lasted 13 min?

Ya he got it from me and I got it from the big bad medeeyah. The 911 call time line and when the cops showed up and then when they had Zimmerman back at the station.

It had to be longer than 13 minutes between the 911 call and the time they got Zimmerman to the station, right?

Brainsick: Zimmerman should have been detained, released, and given a court date to prove self-defense. That would be due process. Why is this difficult?

Did you, um, see that video still of Zimmerman in handcuffs surrounded by police? yeah. That's him being detained. Why is this difficult?

Brainsick: ThrobblefootSpectre: Kome: Impossible to convict someone when they haven't even been arrested yet for admitting to shooting an unarmed 17-year-old to death.

I'm using convict in the more general sense of declaring someone guilty. It's okay. Really.

See my above post about due process and why he can't be arrested without charges, as some people want. You'll see that I agree with you.

1 Dead 17-year old with a gunshot wound to the chest
+
1 Armed Suspect, gun matches the bullet, admits to the killing
=
Charges: Agg. Assault, Manslaughter/Murder

Zimmerman should have been detained, released, and given a court date to prove self-defense. That would be due process. Why is this difficult?

Because it's Florida

smeegle: Hobodeluxe: where did you get that the fight lasted 13 min?

Ya he got it from me and I got it from the big bad medeeyah. The 911 call time line and when the cops showed up and then when they had Zimmerman back at the station.

what you need to do to determine how long it lasted is to go by when the call to the girlfriend dropped. that's when the confrontation initiated. then the time of the gunshot as recorded on the 911 call. the lawyers and cops should be able to determine that.

Scerpes: The_Six_Fingered_Man: If martin was on top of him how did martin end up on his face with his hands under the body? the witnesses say zimmerman was straddling the body with his hands on martin's back holding him down

Did he (Trayvon) die instantly? I know that, if shot in the chest, I would clutch my chest. If I was in the prone position in the first place, say from being pushed aside by someone else, then I would have ended up in the position of my hands being under my body in the prone position.

Also, I hadn't heard that he was found holding Martin down.

One of the female witnesses (Cutcher) claims she saw Zimmerman and Martin immediately after the shooting, and that Zimmerman was straddling Martin, who was facedown. The first officers on scene found him facedown with his hands underneath him.

Difficulty with Cutcher's statement: It's physically impossible. Martin was shot in the chest. Either she didn't see it immediately after the shot, or she's confused about what she saw.

Cutcher said that when she saw Zimmerman on top of Martin, Zimmerman, after refusing to answer her questions, told her to call the police--i.e. she says that she saw Martin's corpse before the police did.

tenpoundsofcheese: smeegle: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

Good question. He told his girlfriend he wasn't going to run but he was going to "walk fast".

and we believe the girlfriend more than any other interested party, why?

.

Because she didn't shoot an unarmed teenager after specifically being told to go home and watch some Law & Order reruns.

ThrobblefootSpectre: Did you, um, see that video still of Zimmerman in handcuffs surrounded by police? yeah. That's him being detained. Why is this difficult?

because he shot a man dead. And there wasn't a grand jury inquest.
Why are you stupid?

Weaver95: Scerpes: Hobodeluxe: Scerpes: Weaver95: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

he might not have seen Zimmerman as a threat, at least not at first. if he was distracted and on the phone with his girlfriend, its possible that he missed the warning signs of Zimmerman psyching himself up for a fight.

That's not what I mean. He was running. Away. Why did he stop?

he thought he had lost Zimmerman

That's possible. But then how did Zimmerman get between him and his house?

also - according to reports on the layout of that neighborhood, there's no place for Martin to have hid from Zimmerman. Zimmerman SHOULD have been able to see Martin the entire time.

Martin should have been able to see Zimmerman the whole time, too. There's no way Martin should have had to confront him unless he turned back on Zimmerman.

Scerpes: Hobodeluxe: Scerpes: Weaver95: Scerpes: The piece that's never made sense to me is why didn't he just go home? He should have been able to easily get to his house if he really did run.

he might not have seen Zimmerman as a threat, at least not at first. if he was distracted and on the phone with his girlfriend, its possible that he missed the warning signs of Zimmerman psyching himself up for a fight.

That's not what I mean. He was running. Away. Why did he stop?

he thought he had lost Zimmerman

That's possible. But then how did Zimmerman get between him and his house?

who said he got between him and the house? I just said he caught up to him while he was talking on the phone.

tirob: Difficulty with Cutcher's statement: It's physically impossible. Martin was shot in the chest. Either she didn't see it immediately after the shot, or she's confused about what she saw.

Cutcher said that when she saw Zimmerman on top of Martin, Zimmerman, after refusing to answer her questions, told her to call the police--i.e. she says that she saw Martin's corpse before the police did.

I get that she says that, but that still doesn't make her statement make sense.