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(NASDAQ)   Experts: "rising demand for oil around the world and supply concerns stemming from Iran sanctions are driving prices at the pump"   (nasdaq.com) divider line 152
    More: Interesting, sanctions against Iran, Iran, Dow Jones Newswires, U.S. Energy Information Administration, Senate Hearing, oil exports, crude oil  
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1272 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Mar 2012 at 1:04 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



152 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-03-31 10:58:23 AM  
No "obvious" tag, subby?
 
2012-03-31 11:34:42 AM  
Translated: "Because we can, b*t ches"
 
2012-03-31 12:42:39 PM  
This is not a repeat from the minute after the dinosaurs got too big and fat and all died and became oil.

www.wearysloth.com
 
2012-03-31 01:03:13 PM  
1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.
 
2012-03-31 01:08:28 PM  
Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.
 
2012-03-31 01:11:12 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


How dare you introduce facts and logic to a Fark politics thread. Have you no shame?
 
2012-03-31 01:12:02 PM  
Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?
 
2012-03-31 01:14:10 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.


or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?
 
2012-03-31 01:14:24 PM  
Wait, are you trying to say that the entire RW narrative about Obama deliberately keeping the price of gas high because he's A) Got the power to do so B) Likes making Americans suffer and C) Is the libbiest eniviro-wacko EVAH is some kind of untruth?

Obvious tag gone golfing or something?

/My favorite RW pundits are the ones who complain about the high price of gas and then without even drawing breath go on to demand military adventurism in Iran.
//Never gets old.
 
2012-03-31 01:15:33 PM  

Karac: Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?


sounds like we need another war??// Lybia's already taken.
 
2012-03-31 01:17:39 PM  
We should bomb them. That would really lower the price of oil.
 
2012-03-31 01:17:54 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.


1. Europe/India/China buy oil from Iran. If the sanctions are cutting off their access to Iranian oil, they'll buy oil from the same places that the US buys oil from.
2. The US buys oil from the same markets and thus at the same prices as Europe/India/China, so higher demand in those markets (mainly the last two) does affect our prices.
 
2012-03-31 01:19:00 PM  

quatchi: Wait, are you trying to say that the entire RW narrative about Obama deliberately keeping the price of gas high because he's A) Got the power to do so B) Likes making Americans suffer and C) Is the libbiest eniviro-wacko EVAH is some kind of untruth?


Some of the PAC ads being run on TV and radio right now aren't too far from this narrative.
 
2012-03-31 01:19:44 PM  

winterwhile: Karac: Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?

sounds like we need another war??// Lybia's already taken.


Are you the only troll that didn't go to Vegas?

The threads are eerily quiet today.
 
2012-03-31 01:23:24 PM  

Mrtraveler01: winterwhile: Karac: Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?

sounds like we need another war??// Lybia's already taken.

Are you the only troll that didn't go to Vegas?

The threads are eerily quiet today.


I think he'd get lost in the airport.
 
2012-03-31 01:24:31 PM  
Translation: we have to raise the price of crude oil because we raised the price of gas.
 
2012-03-31 01:26:03 PM  

winterwhile: Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.

or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?


0bama has proved time and time again that he doesn't care about the price of gas. In fact he wants it higher to support his contributors from the solar power industry (hi Solyndra!).

He is pretending now because an election is coming up and the "0sama is no longer alive" pitch isn't working anymore.
 
2012-03-31 01:27:08 PM  

Mrtraveler01: winterwhile: Karac: Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?

sounds like we need another war??// Lybia's already taken.

Are you the only troll that didn't go to Vegas?

.


It is a bit quiet here in Vegas, but it will pick up later.
 
2012-03-31 01:28:17 PM  

elchip: Mrtraveler01: winterwhile: Karac: Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?

sounds like we need another war??// Lybia's already taken.

Are you the only troll that didn't go to Vegas?

The threads are eerily quiet today.

I think he'd get lost in the airport.


I don't think he'd even make it to the airport.

Although part of me would like to watch him try, just for the lulz.
 
2012-03-31 01:29:29 PM  

quatchi: Wait, are you trying to say that the entire RW narrative about Obama deliberately keeping the price of gas high because he's A) Got the power to do so B) Likes making Americans suffer and C) Is the libbiest eniviro-wacko EVAH is some kind of untruth?


I love when the same people who say that he's doing A, B, and C above turn around and say something about how he's

D) constantly in campaign mode and will do anything to win the next election instead of concentrating on running the gov't.
E) a do nothing President who isn't able to accomplish anything and is a complete failure at everything he's ever done.

Hey, right-wingers...
1) He can't be both doing everything in his power to piss everybody off and doing nothing but taking actions to get re-elected at the same time.
2) He can't be both an ultra-powerful megalomaniac hellbent on destroying America and also a lazy do-nothing at the same time.
 
2012-03-31 01:29:47 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Mrtraveler01: winterwhile: Karac: Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?

sounds like we need another war??// Lybia's already taken.

Are you the only troll that didn't go to Vegas?

It is a bit quiet here in Vegas, but it will pick up later.


I figured everyone was still getting over their hangovers by this point in the morning.
 
2012-03-31 01:30:56 PM  

Don't Troll Me Bro!: 1) He can't be both doing everything in his power to piss everybody off and doing nothing but taking actions to get re-elected at the same time.
2) He can't be both an ultra-powerful megalomaniac hellbent on destroying America and also a lazy do-nothing at the same time.


Why not? He's farking Obama!
 
2012-03-31 01:31:17 PM  

winterwhile: So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?


Right.
 
2012-03-31 01:32:05 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


Who cares?

It's all Obama's fault anyway.
 
2012-03-31 01:32:47 PM  
Methinks you are now twenty pounds of cheese and green and runny. Truth is your pitch has not worked in 4 years and will not for 4 more. Who are you voting for cheeeeeesey? Better yet ...why?
 
2012-03-31 01:35:06 PM  

Toots de la Footsjelly: Methinks you are now twenty pounds of cheese and green and runny. Truth is your pitch has not worked in 4 years and will not for 4 more. Who are you voting for cheeeeeesey? Better yet ...why?


¿lolwhut?
 
2012-03-31 01:35:31 PM  

Arkanaut: GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.

1. Europe/India/China buy oil from Iran. If the sanctions are cutting off their access to Iranian oil, they'll buy oil from the same places that the US buys oil from.
2. The US buys oil from the same markets and thus at the same prices as Europe/India/China, so higher demand in those markets (mainly the last two) does affect our prices.


We buy quite a bit of oil in long term contracts that don't vary. All the oil companies do this and only buy extra speculated oil for demand they think they can meet outside of their main supply. So no, most of our supply isn't changing or up for price fluctuations.
 
2012-03-31 01:36:24 PM  
Anyone complaining about the price of gas, without following up about how we need to get the fark off crude oil and onto alternative energy as soon as possible, should sign up for the Special Olympics immediately.

The fact that we're resorting to extracting from something called "tar sands" means the supply is already farked, and most of what remains is controlled by unstable OPEC shiatholes. If you don't want our country pushing hard towards alternative energy, that's fine--just don't complain about the price. There's no excuse to be blindsided by this every time it happens.
 
2012-03-31 01:36:44 PM  
Gas prices are only going to continue to rise. Either accept a lower standard of living or make more money. There's no other option. Government isn't going to save you.
 
2012-03-31 01:36:48 PM  
This year, there's also a glut of oil in the northeast that happens whenever the winters there are mild. Demand for heating oil (which comes from petroleum) was majorly low this season and there's a bunch of oil inventories sitting around that would have otherwise been refined into heating oil. But yet such reckless speculation is occurring that it is negating the effect of all that extra inventory.
 
2012-03-31 01:46:06 PM  

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Hey, right-wingers...
1) He can't be both doing everything in his power to piss everybody off and doing nothing but taking actions to get re-elected at the same time.
2) He can't be both an ultra-powerful megalomaniac hellbent on destroying America and also a lazy do-nothing at the same time.


He can and is. He is all things to all people. Most of them very, very bad.
 
2012-03-31 01:47:04 PM  
Don't have a job and don't drive anywhere. Score one for the lazy bum!

/Off to eat steak.
 
2012-03-31 01:48:11 PM  

abb3w: No "obvious" tag, subby?


It's probably off somewhere being relevant...as opposed to if it were here
 
2012-03-31 01:50:26 PM  

Zeno-25: This year, there's also a glut of oil in the northeast that happens whenever the winters there are mild. Demand for heating oil (which comes from petroleum) was majorly low this season and there's a bunch of oil inventories sitting around that would have otherwise been refined into heating oil. But yet such reckless speculation is occurring that it is negating the effect of all that extra inventory.


www.livinggenerously.com

What can Obama do against such reckless speculation?

/hot like the fires of Mordor
 
2012-03-31 01:51:49 PM  

Mrtraveler01: quatchi: Wait, are you trying to say that the entire RW narrative about Obama deliberately keeping the price of gas high because he's A) Got the power to do so B) Likes making Americans suffer and C) Is the libbiest eniviro-wacko EVAH is some kind of untruth?

Some of the PAC ads being run on TV and radio right now aren't too far from this narrative.


Please tell me they've at least dropped that absurd "the price of gas when Obama took office was X" nonsense that totally fails to acknowledge the reason why gas had dropped to that low (ie. the economic tailspin created by the housing bubble implosion).

Kinda used to them not mentioning the fact that US domestic oil production under Obama is at an 8 year high with more oil rigs in production any time since the late 80s (nu-pop) or that he's announced loan guarantees of 8.3 billion to help build the first U.S. nuclear power plants in nearly three decades (nu-pop) as well as made great strides in encouraging advances in green, clean renewable energy like solar, wind et al but herping that long discredited "price of gas was X" derp at this point just seems like the very same kind of willful hubris that the ancient Greek used to have.

Karac: Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?


As a Canadian, lemme just say sorry about that whole "sitting on top of your oil" thing but in our defense we are pumping the stuff back down to you at a prodigious rate in order to make amends. ^_^
 
2012-03-31 01:54:33 PM  
So it's all Obama's fault, then.
 
2012-03-31 01:57:13 PM  
That's an awfully wordy way to say "Fartbongo", subby
 
2012-03-31 02:03:34 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


Well done. Needs repeating.
 
2012-03-31 02:04:13 PM  

winterwhile: Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.

or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?


img7.imageshack.us

img839.imageshack.us

img707.imageshack.us
 
2012-03-31 02:05:30 PM  

quatchi: Wait, are you trying to say that the entire RW narrative about Obama deliberately keeping the price of gas high because he's A) Got the power to do so B) Likes making Americans suffer and C) Is the libbiest eniviro-wacko EVAH is some kind of untruth?


It's completely true. Obama has stifled demand for oil through lousing up the economy and smothering us with regulations, and as everyone knows, lower demand only drives up prices.

Right?... Oh wait.
 
2012-03-31 02:06:17 PM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: Don't Troll Me Bro!: Hey, right-wingers...
1) He can't be both doing everything in his power to piss everybody off and doing nothing but taking actions to get re-elected at the same time.
2) He can't be both an ultra-powerful megalomaniac hellbent on destroying America and also a lazy do-nothing at the same time.

He can and is. He is all things to all people. Most of them very, very bad.


same as always.
Remember Bush was both the stupidest President ever as well as the guy who was ablle to convince Congress to go to war in order to fulfill the agenda of the Trilarteral Commission and get all that oil for blood.
 
2012-03-31 02:07:17 PM  
The Economist had a piece on oil speculation, I think it was four issues back. On a $125 barrel of oil, speculation accounted for $8.

You know how conservatives engage in this magical wishful fantasy world, where more drilling in the US will somehow end imports and knock 30 or 40% off prices?

"B-b-b-but speculation!" is the left's version of that.

Its expensive. Its going to get more expensive. The fact that many costs are externalized screws up price signals that would otherwise make it even more expensive. The only answers are to use less, make alternatives viable, or bend over and pay.

Those three choices. No magic solutions. None.
 
2012-03-31 02:08:31 PM  
Almost Forgot. This was written by someone else but its still valid.

Dear Winterwhile,

I hope everything you say is true. I hope everything Santorum, Palin and Rush beleives in is 100% unequivocally and demonstrably true.

Do you know why?

Because I hope that one day an Obamacare 'death panel' will execute you, your mother, your family and every other mouth breathing, hypocritical, argumentative, petty, impotent, right-wing batshiat crazy threadjacking douchebag like you. *Looks sternly at Roy G Biv*

But before they swab your arm with an alcohol prep pad to sterilize the site where they will put the lethal injection I hope they give you a medically unnecessary transvaginal ultrasound. And while they're doing that I hope they call you a slut. Not that you've ever ever had sex with any member of your own species but I hope they call you a slut for the sake of all those chickens you farked into a bloody pulp in this thread alone

What's that? You don't have a vagina? Well I hope they give you an equally unneccessary gender reassignment surgery, but without anesthesia (for the sake of fiscal conservation) just so you can experience the sheer delight of how amazingly right your political convictions are.

In short please take your logical, well thought out and articulated arguments and DIAF
 
2012-03-31 02:10:12 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Pants full of macaroni!!: Don't Troll Me Bro!: Hey, right-wingers...
1) He can't be both doing everything in his power to piss everybody off and doing nothing but taking actions to get re-elected at the same time.
2) He can't be both an ultra-powerful megalomaniac hellbent on destroying America and also a lazy do-nothing at the same time.

He can and is. He is all things to all people. Most of them very, very bad.

same as always.
Remember Bush was both the stupidest President ever as well as the guy who was ablle to convince Congress to go to war in order to fulfill the agenda of the Trilarteral Commission and get all that oil for blood.


No, Bush was the idiot. Rove and Cheney were the master manipulators.

Get it right!
 
2012-03-31 02:11:18 PM  

Raharu: Almost Forgot. This was written by someone else but its still valid.

Dear Winterwhile,

I hope everything you say is true. I hope everything Santorum, Palin and Rush beleives in is 100% unequivocally and demonstrably true.

Do you know why?

Because I hope that one day an Obamacare 'death panel' will execute you, your mother, your family and every other mouth breathing, hypocritical, argumentative, petty, impotent, right-wing batshiat crazy threadjacking douchebag like you. *Looks sternly at Roy G Biv*

But before they swab your arm with an alcohol prep pad to sterilize the site where they will put the lethal injection I hope they give you a medically unnecessary transvaginal ultrasound. And while they're doing that I hope they call you a slut. Not that you've ever ever had sex with any member of your own species but I hope they call you a slut for the sake of all those chickens you farked into a bloody pulp in this thread alone

What's that? You don't have a vagina? Well I hope they give you an equally unneccessary gender reassignment surgery, but without anesthesia (for the sake of fiscal conservation) just so you can experience the sheer delight of how amazingly right your political convictions are.

In short please take your logical, well thought out and articulated arguments and DIAF


Something told me they got banned after that huh?
 
2012-03-31 02:11:27 PM  

winterwhile: Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.

or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?


you are sorta stupid

The petrodollar system originated in the early 1970's in the wake of the Bretton Woods collapse. In a series of highly secret meetings, the U.S. - represented by then U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger according to many commentators - and the Saudi Royal Family made a powerful agreement. According to the agreement, the U.S. offered military protection for Saudi Arabia's oil fields. What did the U.S. want in exchange? For Saudi Arabia to agree to price all of their oil sales in U.S. dollars and to then invest their surplus oil proceeds into U.S. Treasury Bills. This system was later referred to as "petrodollar recycling" by Henry Kissinger. The Saudis agreed and the petrodollar system was born.

By 1975, all of the oil-producing nations of OPEC had agreed to price their oil in dollars and to hold their surplus oil proceeds in U.S. government debt securities as well. Today, the U.S. maintains a major military presence in much of the Persian Gulf region, including the following countries: Bahrain, Iraq, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, and Yemen.

Today, virtually all oil transactions are made in U.S. dollars. This means that if you want to buy a barrel of oil anywhere in this world, you must pay for it with U.S. dollars. If you do not have U.S. dollars, you must obtain them somehow. One way is to simply convert your currency for U.S. dollars on the exchange markets. Or, products can be exported to U.S. in exchange for U.S. dollars.
 
2012-03-31 02:16:31 PM  
Gas will never be cheap again. Ever. Even if you vote for Newt Gingrich. I don't have time to write out the whole reason, but just do a Google image search for "normal curve" and "exponential curve" and notice how they look really similar to each other for a while and then they don't at all. That's why gas will never be cheap again.
 
2012-03-31 02:25:34 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


Best part...
forever
 
2012-03-31 02:26:21 PM  
That can't be true! Rush Limbaugh told me Obama is causing gas prices to skyrocket because of his Kenyan Muslim socialist policies, and Rush would never lie. He's the kindest, most good-hearted person I know.
 
2012-03-31 02:35:07 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


The only thing I would change is that we might be one of the biggest users. Hasn't China passed us? Other than that, this needs to be repeatedly shoved into the faces of the "drill, baby drill" and "wah, the EPA hasn't let us build refineries for 20 years) crowd.
 
2012-03-31 02:36:03 PM  

aug3: Today, virtually all oil transactions are made in U.S. dollars. This means that if you want to buy a barrel of oil anywhere in this world, you must pay for it with U.S. dollars. If you do not have U.S. dollars, you must obtain them somehow. One way is to simply convert your currency for U.S. dollars on the exchange markets. Or, products can be exported to U.S. in exchange for U.S. dollars.


If I remember right, wasn't Sadam pushing to start exchanging in Euros? Then the whole "boom boom" started up.
 
2012-03-31 02:36:46 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


1) Not how the market works. It simply doesn't. That's a fact. Krugman says you're nuts.
2) The US is not a closed system. See 1. Krugman says you're nuts.
3) Krugman says speculators are not at fault, and it drives him professionally crazy when people say they are. The sole exception being if it causes inventories to rise, and then it's because the producers hoard, not speculators. Gas inventories fell, and so, again, Krugman says you're nuts.
4) Except that Krugman says that, as a matter of course, you're nuts.
5) I don't think speculation is necessarily good or evil. I'm for ending tax breaks for them.
6) Keynes says prices are sticky, especially downward. That's not any surprise.
7) World demand has gone up. To pretend that doesn't matter is bad for Paul Krugman's mental state.
 
2012-03-31 02:37:02 PM  

quatchi:
As a Canadian, lemme just say sorry about that whole "sitting on top of your oil" thing but in our defense we are pumping the stuff back down to you at a prodigious rate in order to make amends. ^_^


Whatever, you guys still haven't apologized for Bryan Adams.
 
2012-03-31 02:38:12 PM  
abb3w: No "obvious" tag, subby?
 
2012-03-31 02:39:31 PM  

winterwhile: Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.

or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?


There's actually good reason to believe there is an insufficient supply of US currency. Also, inflation has been pretty darn low, so all this concern over "printing money" is pretty retarded.
 
2012-03-31 02:40:18 PM  

YodaBlues: quatchi:
As a Canadian, lemme just say sorry about that whole "sitting on top of your oil" thing but in our defense we are pumping the stuff back down to you at a prodigious rate in order to make amends. ^_^

Whatever, you guys still haven't apologized for Bryan Adams.


Nor for making the moon recede from Earth.

/Seriously - it's Canada's fault.
 
2012-03-31 02:40:22 PM  

Serious Black: That can't be true! Rush Limbaugh told me Obama is causing gas prices to skyrocket because of his Kenyan Muslim socialist policies, and Rush would never lie. He's the kindest, most good-hearted person I know.



Rush Limbaugh is an expert just not an economic one. When using illegal pharmaceuticals and buggering little Dominican boys he's your man.

\\\That and eating pudding.
 
2012-03-31 02:43:42 PM  
If Obama would just let us drill for more oil, prices would come down. Canada is sitting on a bunch of oil and they practically give away gasoline there.
 
2012-03-31 02:44:50 PM  

MisterRonbo: The Economist had a piece on oil speculation, I think it was four issues back. On a $125 barrel of oil, speculation accounted for $8.

You know how conservatives engage in this magical wishful fantasy world, where more drilling in the US will somehow end imports and knock 30 or 40% off prices?

"B-b-b-but speculation!" is the left's version of that.


www.shadowlocked.com

How dare you bring facts into this discussion? The story around these parts is that the bankers are 100% at fault for all of the woes in the world, especially something like oil prices.
 
2012-03-31 02:49:20 PM  
vygramul


Ahhh, another Chicago school economist. Milton Friedman's already got enough people sucking his dick. You don't rate.


/oh wait.....he ded.
 
2012-03-31 02:50:46 PM  

Great_Milenko: The only thing I would change is that we might be one of the biggest users. Hasn't China passed us?


In gasoline and other crude oil based products? No. The US is still the first with the EU second. In total energy use resulting in more CO2 released than the US? Yes. Most electricity in China is produced via coal power plants in China, with more going up every day.
 
2012-03-31 02:56:03 PM  
Canada - They ruined bacon, they have a coin called a Toonie, French people who live in the woods, their claim to fame is being north of the U.S, the Metric System, yhey hit baby seals, gained independence from the Queen in '82, 1982. They ruined baseball with the Toronto team, Michael J Fox your shaky ass ain't made a movie that I liked

Okay I guess Back To The Future was okay.


BLAME Canada. It's Canada's fault gas prices are high. If Canada could get their shiat together we would have rivers of oil but noooooooooo.

I say we blow 'em up but only stuff around Hudson Bay (that store sucks). Sends a message. Harper get your shiat together or we'll flank you from below the 48th parallel which is like 3/4 of their population.
 
2012-03-31 02:59:16 PM  

FlippityFlap: vygramul


Ahhh, another Chicago school economist. Milton Friedman's already got enough people sucking his dick. You don't rate.


/oh wait.....he ded.


What make you think I'm Chicago School? All the Krugman references?
 
2012-03-31 03:00:34 PM  

GAT_00: Arkanaut: GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.

1. Europe/India/China buy oil from Iran. If the sanctions are cutting off their access to Iranian oil, they'll buy oil from the same places that the US buys oil from.
2. The US buys oil from the same markets and thus at the same prices as Europe/India/China, so higher demand in those markets (mainly the last two) does affect our prices.

We buy quite a bit of oil in long term contracts that don't vary. All the oil companies do this and only buy extra speculated oil for demand they think they can meet outside of their main supply. So no, most of our supply isn't changing or up for price fluctuations.


The US is now a net oil exporter, that was a pretty huge story on the energy circuit. They drilled, baby, drilled and those contracts were negotiated on the global market. I think most people in America don't really understand how profound the demand destruction was during the crisis and how much it is growing now.

Look when you have most of the world champing at the bit to pay the prices there are in America because it's so cheap, then don't be shocked when the prices go up. That's how markets work.
 
2012-03-31 03:03:14 PM  

Lupine Chemist: The US is now a net oil exporter, that was a pretty huge story on the energy circuit. They drilled, baby, drilled and those contracts were negotiated on the global market. I think most people in America don't really understand how profound the demand destruction was during the crisis and how much it is growing now.


Most people in America have no farking clue how commodities work, and the oil and gas lobbyists would like it to stay that was so they can manipulate voters easier.
 
2012-03-31 03:05:03 PM  

T-Servo: quatchi: Wait, are you trying to say that the entire RW narrative about Obama deliberately keeping the price of gas high because he's A) Got the power to do so B) Likes making Americans suffer and C) Is the libbiest eniviro-wacko EVAH is some kind of untruth?

It's completely true. Obama has stifled demand for oil through lousing up the economy and smothering us with regulations, and as everyone knows, lower demand only drives up prices.

Right?... Oh wait.


Cognitive dissonance, more than just a political strategy, it's become a way of life for far too many.
 
2012-03-31 03:06:47 PM  
0bama's mother was a Canadian.


It's true. All a big conspiracy.
 
2012-03-31 03:07:19 PM  

Lupine Chemist: The US is now a net oil exporter, that was a pretty huge story on the energy circuit.


No, the news was the US is a net gasoline exporter, refining more gasoline than consumed. The US still imports ~10 million barrels a day of oil.
 
2012-03-31 03:08:07 PM  

quatchi: Wait, are you trying to say that the entire RW narrative about Obama deliberately keeping the price of gas high because he's A) Got the power to do so B) Likes making Americans suffer and C) Is the libbiest eniviro-wacko EVAH is some kind of untruth?

Obvious tag gone golfing or something?

/My favorite RW pundits are the ones who complain about the high price of gas and then without even drawing breath go on to demand military adventurism in Iran.
//Never gets old.


Pretty much this.
 
2012-03-31 03:10:08 PM  

MisterRonbo: The Economist had a piece on oil speculation, I think it was four issues back. On a $125 barrel of oil, speculation accounted for $8.

You know how conservatives engage in this magical wishful fantasy world, where more drilling in the US will somehow end imports and knock 30 or 40% off prices?

"B-b-b-but speculation!" is the left's version of that.

Its expensive. Its going to get more expensive. The fact that many costs are externalized screws up price signals that would otherwise make it even more expensive. The only answers are to use less, make alternatives viable, or bend over and pay.

Those three choices. No magic solutions. None.


Forbes had an article (referencing GS) that said (when a barrel of oil was $108) $23.39 out of the price of a barrel of oil was due to speculation.

CEO of Exxon said $30-40.

What issue of The Economist had the article on oil speculation?
 
2012-03-31 03:14:40 PM  

YodaBlues: quatchi:
As a Canadian, lemme just say sorry about that whole "sitting on top of your oil" thing but in our defense we are pumping the stuff back down to you at a prodigious rate in order to make amends. ^_^

Whatever, you guys still haven't apologized for Bryan Adams.


Aw C'mon, we gave you Nelly Furtado to make up for Brian.

/Bieber was just a natural backlash to years of David and Shaun Cassidy, Leif Garret, Donny Osmond and Aaron Carter.
//That was a freebie.
///Celine Dion's Vegas act is balanced off by Cirque du Soleil.
 
2012-03-31 03:14:54 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Lupine Chemist: The US is now a net oil exporter, that was a pretty huge story on the energy circuit. They drilled, baby, drilled and those contracts were negotiated on the global market. I think most people in America don't really understand how profound the demand destruction was during the crisis and how much it is growing now.

Most people in America have no farking clue how commodities work, and the oil and gas lobbyists would like it to stay that was so they can manipulate voters easier.


The US is a net oil exporter? I was under the impression that the US uses around 18MM barrels per day, but produces less than 6MM per day. How is that possible?
 
2012-03-31 03:21:10 PM  

Moopy Mac: MisterRonbo: The Economist had a piece on oil speculation, I think it was four issues back. On a $125 barrel of oil, speculation accounted for $8.

You know how conservatives engage in this magical wishful fantasy world, where more drilling in the US will somehow end imports and knock 30 or 40% off prices?

"B-b-b-but speculation!" is the left's version of that.

Its expensive. Its going to get more expensive. The fact that many costs are externalized screws up price signals that would otherwise make it even more expensive. The only answers are to use less, make alternatives viable, or bend over and pay.

Those three choices. No magic solutions. None.

Forbes had an article (referencing GS) that said (when a barrel of oil was $108) $23.39 out of the price of a barrel of oil was due to speculation.

CEO of Exxon said $30-40.

What issue of The Economist had the article on oil speculation?


Here you go. (new window)
 
2012-03-31 03:31:41 PM  
Subby's Dictionary
Expert: Mid level Obama appointee with a paunch, a receding hairline, and a penchant for "kiddie porn."
 
2012-03-31 03:41:41 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


Most petroleum is sold under long term contracts - now, some contracts do have built-in price fluctuations (contract prices are tied in some manner to the spot price or futures prices).
 
2012-03-31 03:46:32 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


Now, I'm being totally serious here: I like this list, but could someone possibly point me to the data to back up these facts? I just want to be able to point to sources.
 
2012-03-31 03:51:39 PM  

Raharu: Almost Forgot. This was written by someone else but its still valid.

Dear Winterwhile,

I hope everything you say is true. I hope everything Santorum, Palin and Rush beleives in is 100% unequivocally and demonstrably true.

Do you know why?

Because I hope that one day an Obamacare 'death panel' will execute you,


stary classy Liberal, stay classy

BTW... can I be on that Obamacare Death panel?
 
2012-03-31 03:54:19 PM  

vygramul: winterwhile: Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.

or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?

There's actually good reason to believe there is an insufficient supply of US currency. Also, inflation has been pretty darn low, so all this concern over "printing money" is pretty retarded.


So the US dollar falling is a good thing? Print more money..... works?

Did you ask the Germans? Or any body with savings about that?
 
2012-03-31 03:55:42 PM  

epocalypse:
Now, I'm being totally serious here: I like this list, but could someone possibly point me to the data to back up these facts? I just want to be able to point to sources.


Good luck with that. If you can't get Krugman to subscribe to that nonsense...
 
2012-03-31 03:55:42 PM  

vygramul: Moopy Mac: MisterRonbo: The Economist had a piece on oil speculation, I think it was four issues back. On a $125 barrel of oil, speculation accounted for $8.

You know how conservatives engage in this magical wishful fantasy world, where more drilling in the US will somehow end imports and knock 30 or 40% off prices?

"B-b-b-but speculation!" is the left's version of that.

Its expensive. Its going to get more expensive. The fact that many costs are externalized screws up price signals that would otherwise make it even more expensive. The only answers are to use less, make alternatives viable, or bend over and pay.

Those three choices. No magic solutions. None.

Forbes had an article (referencing GS) that said (when a barrel of oil was $108) $23.39 out of the price of a barrel of oil was due to speculation.

CEO of Exxon said $30-40.

What issue of The Economist had the article on oil speculation?

Here you go. (new window)


That's not the article to which he was referring. That's from June 2008.
 
2012-03-31 03:57:29 PM  

dinch: aug3: Today, virtually all oil transactions are made in U.S. dollars. This means that if you want to buy a barrel of oil anywhere in this world, you must pay for it with U.S. dollars. If you do not have U.S. dollars, you must obtain them somehow. One way is to simply convert your currency for U.S. dollars on the exchange markets. Or, products can be exported to U.S. in exchange for U.S. dollars.

If I remember right, wasn't Sadam pushing to start exchanging in Euros? Then the whole "boom boom" started up.


yes
 
2012-03-31 04:00:14 PM  

winterwhile: vygramul: winterwhile: Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.

or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?

There's actually good reason to believe there is an insufficient supply of US currency. Also, inflation has been pretty darn low, so all this concern over "printing money" is pretty retarded.

So the US dollar falling is a good thing? Print more money..... works?

Did you ask the Germans? Or any body with savings about that?


Hyper-inflation is not the same as regular inflation. You're claiming the intellectual equivalent that because you can drown, you should never drink water.

As Greg Mankiw (American Enterprise Institute, so you should approve of the source) says, society faces a short-run tradeoff between inflation and unemployment. Mankiw would say that printing money helps curb unemployment.
 
2012-03-31 04:18:53 PM  

vygramul: winterwhile: vygramul: winterwhile: Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.

or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?

There's actually good reason to believe there is an insufficient supply of US currency. Also, inflation has been pretty darn low, so all this concern over "printing money" is pretty retarded.

So the US dollar falling is a good thing? Print more money..... works?

Did you ask the Germans? Or any body with savings about that?

Hyper-inflation is not the same as regular inflation. You're claiming the intellectual equivalent that because you can drown, you should never drink water.

As Greg Mankiw (American Enterprise Institute, so you should approve of the source) says, society faces a short-run tradeoff between inflation and unemployment. Mankiw would say that printing money helps curb unemployment.


Apt analogy is apt.

Slapping WW down with facts never gets old for me.

/I'mma steal that analogy cos it's so good but in return I'mma favorite you with the notation "apt anology is apt" so it should sorta even out.
 
2012-03-31 04:19:06 PM  

winterwhile: Raharu: Almost Forgot. This was written by someone else but its still valid.

Dear Winterwhile,

I hope everything you say is true. I hope everything Santorum, Palin and Rush beleives in is 100% unequivocally and demonstrably true.

Do you know why?

Because I hope that one day an Obamacare 'death panel' will execute you,


stary classy Liberal, stay classy


Best part... FOREVER!

images.mylittlefacewhen.com
 
2012-03-31 05:07:48 PM  

Moopy Mac: Mrtraveler01: Lupine Chemist: The US is now a net oil exporter, that was a pretty huge story on the energy circuit. They drilled, baby, drilled and those contracts were negotiated on the global market. I think most people in America don't really understand how profound the demand destruction was during the crisis and how much it is growing now.

Most people in America have no farking clue how commodities work, and the oil and gas lobbyists would like it to stay that was so they can manipulate voters easier.

The US is a net oil exporter? I was under the impression that the US uses around 18MM barrels per day, but produces less than 6MM per day. How is that possible?


Net exporter of refined fuel. We are refining fuel and shipping it overseas, to places like China. That was the big bruhahah over the keystone pipeline. With that, more oil could be shipped to texas, refined there as fuel and then shipped over seas (or whoever is the high bidder).
 
2012-03-31 05:14:00 PM  

Trolljegeren: Most petroleum is sold under long term contracts - now, some contracts do have built-in price fluctuations (contract prices are tied in some manner to the spot price or futures prices).


Which is further proof, as I mentioned earlier, that prices shouldn't be rising. Speculation has to be the cause.

epocalypse: Now, I'm being totally serious here: I like this list, but could someone possibly point me to the data to back up these facts? I just want to be able to point to sources.


From 1995 was total ban on trade with Iran by USA.

Demand: Link
At the bottom, compare to previous
 
2012-03-31 05:14:58 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


Unless people are actually hoarding physical oil, speculation doesnt have more than marginal impact on prices. It's simply impossible.

Concentrating on speculation as a cause distracts us from the true reason for the long term rise in the price of crude - supply not keeping up with demand.

It's certainly not Obama's fault, mind you. But focusing on speculation is farking silly.
 
2012-03-31 05:17:39 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Unless people are actually hoarding physical oil, speculation doesnt have more than marginal impact on prices. It's simply impossible.


You don't have to take delivery. Simply buy up the currently available supply, and then turn around and sell it for a higher price. It's quite possible and done every day.
 
2012-03-31 05:18:47 PM  
Moopy Mac
What issue of The Economist had the article on oil speculation?

The new grease?

The price of Brent crude shot up by more than $5 a barrel on March 1st, to $128, after an Iranian press report that explosions had destroyed a vital Saudi Arabian oil pipeline. It fell back after the Saudis denied the claim, but at $125, crude is still 16% costlier than at the start of the year....Jeffrey Currie of Goldman Sachs reckons that the fundamentals of supply and demand have pushed oil prices to around $118 a barrel. He thinks the remaining increase is down to fears about Iran. If so, should relations with Iran improve, the oil price might go down by a few dollars, but stay close to $120.



Its pretty hard to drive up prices through pure speculation in a market as huge as oil. Ask the Hunt brothers how that works.
 
2012-03-31 05:20:24 PM  

Elfich: Moopy Mac: Mrtraveler01: Lupine Chemist: The US is now a net oil exporter, that was a pretty huge story on the energy circuit. They drilled, baby, drilled and those contracts were negotiated on the global market. I think most people in America don't really understand how profound the demand destruction was during the crisis and how much it is growing now.

Most people in America have no farking clue how commodities work, and the oil and gas lobbyists would like it to stay that was so they can manipulate voters easier.

The US is a net oil exporter? I was under the impression that the US uses around 18MM barrels per day, but produces less than 6MM per day. How is that possible?

Net exporter of refined fuel. We are refining fuel and shipping it overseas, to places like China. That was the big bruhahah over the keystone pipeline. With that, more oil could be shipped to texas, refined there as fuel and then shipped over seas (or whoever is the high bidder).


Of course the USA is a net exporter of gasoline. That has been mentioned ad naseum in the politics tab over the last 2 months. Particularly every time the Keystone XL pipeline is discussed.

The USA is a huge net importer of oil. Which is the opposite of being a net exporter because those two words are antonyms.
 
2012-03-31 05:24:45 PM  

MisterRonbo: Moopy Mac
What issue of The Economist had the article on oil speculation?

The new grease?

The price of Brent crude shot up by more than $5 a barrel on March 1st, to $128, after an Iranian press report that explosions had destroyed a vital Saudi Arabian oil pipeline. It fell back after the Saudis denied the claim, but at $125, crude is still 16% costlier than at the start of the year....Jeffrey Currie of Goldman Sachs reckons that the fundamentals of supply and demand have pushed oil prices to around $118 a barrel. He thinks the remaining increase is down to fears about Iran. If so, should relations with Iran improve, the oil price might go down by a few dollars, but stay close to $120.



Its pretty hard to drive up prices through pure speculation in a market as huge as oil. Ask the Hunt brothers how that works.


I can see why the CEO of Exxon would say that speculation adds a significant amount to the cost of a barrel of oil, but what benefit would Forbes/GS receive from saying the same thing?
 
2012-03-31 05:29:47 PM  

Moopy Mac: MisterRonbo: Moopy Mac
What issue of The Economist had the article on oil speculation?

The new grease?

The price of Brent crude shot up by more than $5 a barrel on March 1st, to $128, after an Iranian press report that explosions had destroyed a vital Saudi Arabian oil pipeline. It fell back after the Saudis denied the claim, but at $125, crude is still 16% costlier than at the start of the year....Jeffrey Currie of Goldman Sachs reckons that the fundamentals of supply and demand have pushed oil prices to around $118 a barrel. He thinks the remaining increase is down to fears about Iran. If so, should relations with Iran improve, the oil price might go down by a few dollars, but stay close to $120.



Its pretty hard to drive up prices through pure speculation in a market as huge as oil. Ask the Hunt brothers how that works.

I can see why the CEO of Exxon would say that speculation adds a significant amount to the cost of a barrel of oil, but what benefit would Forbes/GS receive from saying the same thing?


And that paragraph that you quoted isn't necessarily about speculation. Isn't speculation a part of demand, therefore it would be included in the $118 figure? MisterRonbo said that speculation added $7 a barrel, but that paragraph attributes the $7 increase to fears about Iran. Speculation exists aside from any geopolitical instabilities. I'm confused how that article says what he said it says.
 
2012-03-31 05:37:22 PM  
But I thought it was up because Obama was going gas station to gas station rising up prices himself.
 
2012-03-31 05:39:10 PM  
Moopy Mac

And that paragraph that you quoted isn't necessarily about speculation. Isn't speculation a part of demand

Uh, no.

"the fundamentals of supply and demand "

Fundamentals. As in, not speculation. Demand is actual consumption. Speculation is a derivative based on the projected direction and rate of change in demand. Just as acceleration is a derivative of velocity, and is not relevant when you are stating the speed you're traveling at a specific moment. I can't read the word "fundamentals" and think it includes speculation.

I can see why the CEO of Exxon would say that speculation adds a significant amount to the cost of a barrel of oil, but what benefit would Forbes/GS receive from saying the same thing?

Just a guess on my part, but you're selling a magazine whose audience consists of financial professionals and the customers of their services. Promoting the idea that there is a whole lot of speculation affecting the markets seems like a message your advertisers, who sell investment advice, would like to promote.

I know, I'm such a cynic...
 
2012-03-31 05:45:12 PM  

GAT_00: Debeo Summa Credo: Unless people are actually hoarding physical oil, speculation doesnt have more than marginal impact on prices. It's simply impossible.

You don't have to take delivery. Simply buy up the currently available supply, and then turn around and sell it for a higher price. It's quite possible and done every day.


Poor Exxon, BP, Shell... who knew they were such dupes that speculators could take the oil from them for so cheap and re-sell it to each other for a higher price for some random reason, and then finally sell it to the refineries to turn into gas.

If only the abused oil companies could just get rid of the middle-man and sell it to each other instead (because just selling it means it will go for a higher price, of course - that's why you should buy stuff and just sell it on ebay right away to make money). But the oil companies are too innocent and stupid to do it themselves. They need the speculators because only speculators - and Gat, of course - understand how this works. It mystifies economists like Krugman (who I've been informed makes him some kind of Chicago School Friedman slurper - like Keynes, apparently), but Gat will get the Nobel Prize for this any day now.
 
2012-03-31 05:53:30 PM  
Also contributing to high oil prices, the main driver of gasoline prices, are supply outages equal to about 750,000 barrels a day and a dwindling amount of spare capacity "that would create upward price pressure in any case," Yergin said.

so, there wasnt enough spare capacity to make up for supply outages, which reduced supply, which increased prices? LOL

and the oil producers are SOOOO upset about this price increase ... LOL

/to be fair, the producers understand that if they tank the world economy with prices which are TOO high, that that would cut into profits .........
 
2012-03-31 05:57:42 PM  

MisterRonbo: Moopy Mac

And that paragraph that you quoted isn't necessarily about speculation. Isn't speculation a part of demand

Uh, no.

"the fundamentals of supply and demand "

Fundamentals. As in, not speculation. Demand is actual consumption. Speculation is a derivative based on the projected direction and rate of change in demand. Just as acceleration is a derivative of velocity, and is not relevant when you are stating the speed you're traveling at a specific moment. I can't read the word "fundamentals" and think it includes speculation.

I can see why the CEO of Exxon would say that speculation adds a significant amount to the cost of a barrel of oil, but what benefit would Forbes/GS receive from saying the same thing?

Just a guess on my part, but you're selling a magazine whose audience consists of financial professionals and the customers of their services. Promoting the idea that there is a whole lot of speculation affecting the markets seems like a message your advertisers, who sell investment advice, would like to promote.

I know, I'm such a cynic...


And what is Krugman selling? (new window)

I suppose he just wants to damage his liberal cred. (new window)

Krugman CLAIMS not to have a dog in this fight when he says, "But the mysticism over how speculation is supposed to drive prices drives me crazy, professionally." (new window) I mean, he goes on to say, "Imagine that Joe Shmoe and Harriet Who, neither of whom has any direct involvement in the production of oil, make a bet: Joe says oil is going to $150, Harriet says it won't. What direct effect does this have on the spot price of oil - the actual price people pay to have a barrel of black gunk delivered?

The answer, surely, is none. Who cares what bets people not involved in buying or selling the stuff make? And if there are 10 million Joe Shmoes [speculators], it still doesn't make any difference."

Maybe Krugman makes money off of brokering speculation. Or maybe it turns out he's some secret conservative.
 
2012-03-31 06:02:50 PM  

Moopy Mac: Elfich: Moopy Mac: Mrtraveler01: Lupine Chemist: The US is now a net oil exporter, that was a pretty huge story on the energy circuit. They drilled, baby, drilled and those contracts were negotiated on the global market. I think most people in America don't really understand how profound the demand destruction was during the crisis and how much it is growing now.

Most people in America have no farking clue how commodities work, and the oil and gas lobbyists would like it to stay that was so they can manipulate voters easier.

The US is a net oil exporter? I was under the impression that the US uses around 18MM barrels per day, but produces less than 6MM per day. How is that possible?

Net exporter of refined fuel. We are refining fuel and shipping it overseas, to places like China. That was the big bruhahah over the keystone pipeline. With that, more oil could be shipped to texas, refined there as fuel and then shipped over seas (or whoever is the high bidder).

Of course the USA is a net exporter of gasoline. That has been mentioned ad naseum in the politics tab over the last 2 months. Particularly every time the Keystone XL pipeline is discussed.

The USA is a huge net importer of oil. Which is the opposite of being a net exporter because those two words are antonyms.


I agree with you. The US is a net importer of crude oil, and a net exporter of refined oil. Its pretty screwed up.
 
2012-03-31 06:05:29 PM  
Experts: "rising demand for oil around the world and supply concerns stemming from Iran sanctions are driving prices at the pump"

The primary reason.

More people want it, more people use it, ergo, it costs more. Duh. That's that "free market" thingy the conservatives are always railing about.
 
2012-03-31 06:21:31 PM  

vygramul: winterwhile: vygramul:

As Greg Mankiw (American Enterprise Institute, so you should approve of the source) says, society faces a short-run tradeoff between inflation and unemployment. Mankiw would say that printing money helps curb unemployment.


oh good

lets print baby print, fark the folks who actually saved money

just Fark the middle class, yea baby lets do it

cause when you print money, it goes down in value
 
2012-03-31 06:23:39 PM  
i think the obvious answer is a full-scale invasion followed by an 8.5 year bloody occupation and "reconstruction"

right?
 
2012-03-31 06:24:33 PM  

winterwhile: vygramul: winterwhile: vygramul:

As Greg Mankiw (American Enterprise Institute, so you should approve of the source) says, society faces a short-run tradeoff between inflation and unemployment. Mankiw would say that printing money helps curb unemployment.

oh good

lets print baby print, fark the folks who actually saved money

just Fark the middle class, yea baby lets do it

cause when you print money, it goes down in value


You should avoid drinking any water whatsoever. Ever. Because people drown in that stuff.

Retard.
 
2012-03-31 07:12:54 PM  
god damn there's a lot of stupid in this thread.
 
2012-03-31 07:22:48 PM  
My 2 cents

There is a difference between a good rising in price due to a change in value and a good rising in price due to increased liquidity in the market.

The FED more or less told the world "Well its our money but its your problem". And I think you are seeing the consequence of that message in rising commodity prices.

//Cheers.
 
2012-03-31 07:56:54 PM  

dinch: If I remember right, wasn't Sadam pushing to start exchanging in Euros? Then And so the whole "boom boom" started up.


Fixed that for you. We went into Iraq because Saddam was going to move his oil trading away from the dollar. We knew he wasn't connected to Al Qaeda, we clearly didn't give a shiat what he did to his people, and he was reluctantly complying with the UN inspections.
 
2012-03-31 08:07:25 PM  

wotthefark: 0bama's mother was a Canadian.


It's true. All a big conspiracy.


0bama's real girlfriend is in Canada. It's true.

0bama's car was made in Quebec, Canada, making him a French Socialist whore.

0bama wears clothes made in Canada, making him a Commie Muslim from the capital of France, which is Kenya. Kenya's now the capital of France ever since the Socialist Muslims took over. Which 0bama is the leader of! You lemmings have never heard of this news because you don't get the Truth from Rush Limbaugh.
 
2012-03-31 08:12:42 PM  
This just in from the No Shiat Sherlock news desk...
 
2012-03-31 08:20:49 PM  

Mugato: This is not a repeat from the minute after the dinosaurs got too big and fat and all died and became oil.

[www.wearysloth.com image 320x240]


i3.kym-cdn.com
OIL IS NOT DINOSAURS! GOODNIGHT!
 
2012-03-31 08:24:59 PM  
So we are not pushing for more natural gas infrastructure why?
 
2012-03-31 08:26:44 PM  
To hear the MSM, this is the first time in history the President has absolutely no control over the price of gas.
 
2012-03-31 08:26:49 PM  

quatchi: Kinda used to them not mentioning the fact that US domestic oil production under Obama is at an 8 year high with more oil rigs in production any time since the late 80s (nu-pop)


The majority of the permits for that increase came during the Bush years. It is incorrect to credit Obama for the increase in domestic production simply because the permits applied for years ago came to fruition recently.

I'm not blaming or crediting Obama: I'm just pointing out a fact.
 
kab
2012-03-31 08:30:50 PM  

hubiestubert: Translated: "Because we can, b*t ches"


Done in two.
 
2012-03-31 08:50:54 PM  

downpaymentblues: quatchi: Kinda used to them not mentioning the fact that US domestic oil production under Obama is at an 8 year high with more oil rigs in production any time since the late 80s (nu-pop)

The majority of the permits for that increase came during the Bush years. It is incorrect to credit Obama for the increase in domestic production simply because the permits applied for years ago came to fruition recently.

I'm not blaming or crediting Obama: I'm just pointing out a fact.


True, but this still negates the premise that we can drill our way to cheap oil id only Obama would let us.
 
2012-03-31 09:05:51 PM  
I'm glad the Resource WarriorsTM have decided they can make money without actually going to war in the Middle East.

At least we'll save a few thousand American lives that way.

/Too bad about all those unemployed contractors.
/Wolfowitz et al. can eat shiat
 
2012-03-31 09:07:05 PM  
All the previous BS aside....
DUH!

It's the only real thing the President can do to affect gas prices...
Fark with Iran, and Iran farks back.

/Sounds like something Ron Paul would say except without the fark.
 
2012-03-31 09:11:31 PM  

winterwhile: vygramul: winterwhile: Mrtraveler01: Obviously what we need to do is to build a pipeline that would take oil that would've been destined for the Midwest and sell it on the world market.

or we could just print more money

you do know the value of the dollar is in no way tied to the price of oil?

So lets print another 2 trillion, and spend it?

Worked last time Obama did it... right?

There's actually good reason to believe there is an insufficient supply of US currency. Also, inflation has been pretty darn low, so all this concern over "printing money" is pretty retarded.

So the US dollar falling is a good thing? Print more money..... works?

Did you ask the Germans? Or any body with savings about that?


By exhibiting concern on the matter, you're kind of proving his point.
 
2012-03-31 09:20:07 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


The abundant supply of natural gas in the US has speculated the price down to $1.98/MMBtu.
 
2012-03-31 09:32:11 PM  

downpaymentblues: quatchi: Kinda used to them not mentioning the fact that US domestic oil production under Obama is at an 8 year high with more oil rigs in production any time since the late 80s (nu-pop)

The majority of the permits for that increase came during the Bush years. It is incorrect to credit Obama for the increase in domestic production simply because the permits applied for years ago came to fruition recently.

I'm not blaming or crediting Obama: I'm just pointing out a fact.


I'm not crediting or blaming Obama either.

Just noting that the narrative of him being a big old wet blanket on American energy concerns, a big green meanie strangling them in regulations and red tape and driving the price of gas upwards presumably while laughing maniacally is made up of whole cloth.

Looking with a non partisan eye at where Obama has gone on oil, nuclear, natural gas and alternative energy in the last three years one can see a comprehensive strategy that defies that RW derp narrative completely is all I'm trying to say here.

Their inability to factor in such things as speculators and an increase in global demand and factors like Iran as we see explained in the article and in the thread here belies a certain deliberate and willful disregard of the facts on their part. They also can't seem to wrap their heads around the simple fact that beyond dipping into the Strategic Petroleum Reserves and announcing he'll do so again if necessary in order to calm the market (which he's already done, btw) (nu-pops) a POTUS doesn't really doesn't have a lot of control over global gas prices. That seems a bit silly too.
 
2012-03-31 09:54:33 PM  

elchip: Mrtraveler01: winterwhile: Karac: Wait a minute - you mean people exist outside the US, and that they're part of the demand part of supply & demand? WTF are these furriners doing with the oil that belongs to us?

sounds like we need another war??// Lybia's already taken.

Are you the only troll that didn't go to Vegas?

The threads are eerily quiet today.

I think he'd get lost in the airport.



Best part, forever...
 
2012-03-31 10:02:13 PM  
I didn't see what anyone else wrote on the Fark comment section nor the article's.

THIS IS A LIE >>>> The idea that speculative traders are making oil more expensive is a "minority view," Horsnell said. "And I think it's an incorrect view based on faulty analysis."
Hope the next world war allows me to shoot you against the wall. That is all.
 
2012-03-31 10:12:13 PM  

downpaymentblues: quatchi: Kinda used to them not mentioning the fact that US domestic oil production under Obama is at an 8 year high with more oil rigs in production any time since the late 80s (nu-pop)

The majority of the permits for that increase came during the Bush years. It is incorrect to credit Obama for the increase in domestic production simply because the permits applied for years ago came to fruition recently.

I'm not blaming or crediting Obama: I'm just pointing out a fact.


But I've been assured by right wing radio listeners is that not a single new well has opened in the last three years because Obama has been blocking all the permitting processes.
 
2012-03-31 10:14:37 PM  

jso2897: winterwhile: vygramul:

By exhibiting concern on the matter, you're kind of proving his point.


I have no concern, let the Middle class get Farked by the dem-o-rats, as they print baby print

Fark your savings..... the dem-o-rats spent it

best part

forever
 
2012-03-31 10:17:07 PM  

BSABSVR: downpaymentblues: quatchi: Kinda used to them not mentioning the fact that US domestic oil production under Obama is at an 8 year high with more oil rigs in production any time since the late 80s (nu-pop)

The majority of the permits for that increase came during the Bush years. It is incorrect to credit Obama for the increase in domestic production simply because the permits applied for years ago came to fruition recently.

I'm not blaming or crediting Obama: I'm just pointing out a fact.

True, but this still negates the premise that we can drill our way to cheap oil id only Obama would let us.


We have drilled our way to cheap natural gas.
 
2012-03-31 10:42:40 PM  

winterwhile: jso2897: winterwhile: vygramul:

By exhibiting concern on the matter, you're kind of proving his point.

I have no concern, let the Middle class get Farked by the dem-o-rats, as they print baby print

Fark your savings..... the dem-o-rats spent it

best part

forever


Awww... poor baby's lack of education leaves him scared - just the way the GOP likes you. So you believe anything you're told about the big bad Democrats. I'm sorry your party and your cause are so neutered that they can't protect you from destroying your life and savings. I'm sure you'll be lucky to afford a loaf of bread next year.

I'll be sure to give you $2 to wash the windows of my Lexus when I see you.
 
2012-03-31 10:45:36 PM  

winterwhile: jso2897: winterwhile: vygramul:

By exhibiting concern on the matter, you're kind of proving his point.

I have no concern, let the Middle class get Farked by the dem-o-rats, as they print baby print

Fark your savings..... the dem-o-rats spent it

best part

forever


Cut&paste are hard wurk! I got a biznes of mi own! Wach me rite bad wurds! I hav no originul thots!
 
2012-03-31 11:24:17 PM  
img528.imageshack.us
 
2012-04-01 12:02:00 AM  

winterwhile: jso2897: winterwhile: vygramul:

By exhibiting concern on the matter, you're kind of proving his point.

I have no concern, let the Middle class get Farked by the dem-o-rats, as they print baby print

Fark your savings..... the dem-o-rats spent it

best part

forever


You make Fark suck. But it's ok cause Drew most likely subsidizes your tripe
 
2012-04-01 12:27:32 AM  
Oil demand hasn't come close to supply in a long, long time. Iran's portion is nowhere near significant.

If there's weather, oil will go up. If there's someone who will pay, oil will go up. If it's a day that ends in Y, oil will go up. We all know you're lying through your teeth now.
 
2012-04-01 01:41:41 AM  
winter while is the most effective troll ever. I've seen him derail threads he's not even in
 
2012-04-01 03:58:17 AM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


You forgot the greatest variable of all: we have President Fartbongo, and it's entirely his fault when prices go up.
 
2012-04-01 04:03:50 AM  
Building an ultra-modern city in the middle of a desert isn't cheap.
img818.imageshack.us
GIS Dubai if you don't believe me.
 
2012-04-01 06:59:32 AM  

winterwhile: jso2897: winterwhile: vygramul:

By exhibiting concern on the matter, you're kind of proving his point.

I have no concern, let the Middle class get Farked by the dem-o-rats, as they print baby print

Fark your savings..... the dem-o-rats spent it

best part

forever


Yup - that's what I mean.
 
2012-04-01 07:02:25 AM  
The price of gas is high because we refuse to build a pipeline to the moon.

True story.
 
2012-04-01 08:20:42 AM  

GAT_00: .


This post makes me frustrated that I missed this thread

Ill see you later
 
2012-04-01 09:12:34 AM  

jso2897: winterwhile: jso2897: winterwhile: vygramul:

By exhibiting concern on the matter, you're kind of proving his point.

I have no concern, let the Middle class get Farked by the dem-o-rats, as they print baby print

Fark your savings..... the dem-o-rats spent it

best part

forever

Yup - that's what I mean.


analyize me.Doc... do I have a condition?

BTW I want the good drugs, not the old cheep ones
 
2012-04-01 09:19:03 AM  

red5ish: Building an ultra-modern city in the middle of a desert isn't cheap.
[img818.imageshack.us image 634x420]
GIS Dubai if you don't believe me.


Oil and gas is NOT the major source of income for Dubai. That city has been built on income from real estate, construction, financial services, tourism etc.
 
2012-04-01 10:55:17 AM  

MisterRonbo: Moopy Mac

And that paragraph that you quoted isn't necessarily about speculation. Isn't speculation a part of demand

Uh, no.

"the fundamentals of supply and demand "

Fundamentals. As in, not speculation. Demand is actual consumption. Speculation is a derivative based on the projected direction and rate of change in demand. Just as acceleration is a derivative of velocity, and is not relevant when you are stating the speed you're traveling at a specific moment. I can't read the word "fundamentals" and think it includes speculation.

I can see why the CEO of Exxon would say that speculation adds a significant amount to the cost of a barrel of oil, but what benefit would Forbes/GS receive from saying the same thing?

Just a guess on my part, but you're selling a magazine whose audience consists of financial professionals and the customers of their services. Promoting the idea that there is a whole lot of speculation affecting the markets seems like a message your advertisers, who sell investment advice, would like to promote.

I know, I'm such a cynic...


"Fundamentals. As in, not speculation. Demand is actual consumption. Speculation is a derivative based on the projected direction and rate of change in demand. Just as acceleration is a derivative of velocity, and is not relevant when you are stating the speed you're traveling at a specific moment. I can't read the word "fundamentals" and think it includes speculation."

That article specifically says that the price above $118 are due to fears of Iran. So you are arguing that speculation (other than those that may be related to Iran) has zero effect on the price of oil. That's exactly what you are saying. Do you feel comfortable making that statement?


"Just a guess on my part, but you're selling a magazine whose audience consists of financial professionals and the customers of their services."

Which is completely different than the audience of The Economist?
 
2012-04-01 11:52:44 AM  

Dansker: red5ish: Building an ultra-modern city in the middle of a desert isn't cheap.
[img818.imageshack.us image 634x420]
GIS Dubai if you don't believe me.

Oil and gas is NOT the major source of income for Dubai. That city has been built on income from real estate, construction, financial services, tourism etc.


But mostly real estate. Dubai's economic power is all a show, the economy tanked there a few years back because...you guessed it...real estate speculation.
 
2012-04-01 12:06:41 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Dansker: red5ish: Building an ultra-modern city in the middle of a desert isn't cheap.
[img818.imageshack.us image 634x420]
GIS Dubai if you don't believe me.

Oil and gas is NOT the major source of income for Dubai. That city has been built on income from real estate, construction, financial services, tourism etc.

But mostly real estate.


Yes, not oil, so you agree that red5ish is barking up the wrong tree.
 
2012-04-01 12:59:08 PM  

Moopy Mac: MisterRonbo: Moopy Mac

And that paragraph that you quoted isn't necessarily about speculation. Isn't speculation a part of demand

Uh, no.

"the fundamentals of supply and demand "

Fundamentals. As in, not speculation. Demand is actual consumption. Speculation is a derivative based on the projected direction and rate of change in demand. Just as acceleration is a derivative of velocity, and is not relevant when you are stating the speed you're traveling at a specific moment. I can't read the word "fundamentals" and think it includes speculation.

I can see why the CEO of Exxon would say that speculation adds a significant amount to the cost of a barrel of oil, but what benefit would Forbes/GS receive from saying the same thing?

Just a guess on my part, but you're selling a magazine whose audience consists of financial professionals and the customers of their services. Promoting the idea that there is a whole lot of speculation affecting the markets seems like a message your advertisers, who sell investment advice, would like to promote.

I know, I'm such a cynic...

"Fundamentals. As in, not speculation. Demand is actual consumption. Speculation is a derivative based on the projected direction and rate of change in demand. Just as acceleration is a derivative of velocity, and is not relevant when you are stating the speed you're traveling at a specific moment. I can't read the word "fundamentals" and think it includes speculation."

That article specifically says that the price above $118 are due to fears of Iran. So you are arguing that speculation (other than those that may be related to Iran) has zero effect on the price of oil. That's exactly what you are saying. Do you feel comfortable making that statement?


"Just a guess on my part, but you're selling a magazine whose audience consists of financial professionals and the customers of their services."

Which is completely different than the audience of The Economist?


No,fear of an attack on Iran is the very definition of speculation. Fear drives speculation.
 
2012-04-01 01:35:05 PM  

MisterRonbo: Moopy Mac: MisterRonbo: Moopy Mac

And that paragraph that you quoted isn't necessarily about speculation. Isn't speculation a part of demand

Uh, no.

"the fundamentals of supply and demand "

Fundamentals. As in, not speculation. Demand is actual consumption. Speculation is a derivative based on the projected direction and rate of change in demand. Just as acceleration is a derivative of velocity, and is not relevant when you are stating the speed you're traveling at a specific moment. I can't read the word "fundamentals" and think it includes speculation.

I can see why the CEO of Exxon would say that speculation adds a significant amount to the cost of a barrel of oil, but what benefit would Forbes/GS receive from saying the same thing?

Just a guess on my part, but you're selling a magazine whose audience consists of financial professionals and the customers of their services. Promoting the idea that there is a whole lot of speculation affecting the markets seems like a message your advertisers, who sell investment advice, would like to promote.

I know, I'm such a cynic...

"Fundamentals. As in, not speculation. Demand is actual consumption. Speculation is a derivative based on the projected direction and rate of change in demand. Just as acceleration is a derivative of velocity, and is not relevant when you are stating the speed you're traveling at a specific moment. I can't read the word "fundamentals" and think it includes speculation."

That article specifically says that the price above $118 are due to fears of Iran. So you are arguing that speculation (other than those that may be related to Iran) has zero effect on the price of oil. That's exactly what you are saying. Do you feel comfortable making that statement?


"Just a guess on my part, but you're selling a magazine whose audience consists of financial professionals and the customers of their services."

Which is completely different than the audience of The Economist?

No,fear of an atta ...


So speculation around an attack on Iran is the only speculation that moves the price? That seems to be your argument (at least if you are relying on that article to say that only $7 out of a barrel of oil is because of speculation).

Look back at what was posted and what you've said. You've said that speculation is not part of "fundamentals of supply and demand". And you are relying on an article that says the fundamentals of supply and demand put the price at $118 and the other $7 in a barrel of oil is because of fears of Iran. Therefore you are saying that the only speculation that moves the price of oil is the $7 geopolitical risk speculation surrounding disruptions due to Iran. Do you believe that?
 
2012-04-01 02:40:51 PM  

Dansker: Mrtraveler01: Dansker: red5ish: Building an ultra-modern city in the middle of a desert isn't cheap.
[img818.imageshack.us image 634x420]
GIS Dubai if you don't believe me.

Oil and gas is NOT the major source of income for Dubai. That city has been built on income from real estate, construction, financial services, tourism etc.

But mostly real estate.

Yes, not oil, so you agree that red5ish is barking up the wrong tree.


Agreed.
 
2012-04-01 04:09:27 PM  

GAT_00: 1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.
2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.
3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.
5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.
6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.
7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.

Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


It does not matter how much oil we purchase from Iran. Oil is a global commodity with many producers and sellers. A concern about the availability of Iranian oil affects the people who do use it like Europe, India and China. If oil is cut off from Iran, those countries will now have to start consuming Norwegian, Canadian, US and Russian Oil at an increased rate.

Decrease in supply, static or increased demand = increase in price. Speculators simply bet on the likelyhood of this happening

Since you failed ECON101, there's really no reason to address anything else you've said.
 
2012-04-01 04:25:29 PM  

o5iiawah: Speculators simply bet on the likelyhood of this happening


Neither that, nor anything else you said, is at odds with the notion that speculation can drive up prices.
 
2012-04-01 04:47:37 PM  

o5iiawah: Since you failed ECON101, there's really no reason to address anything else you've said.


According to him, if everyone in the world stopped using oil, it would not affect our oil prices at all.
 
2012-04-02 02:03:56 AM  

Serious Black: That can't be true! Rush Limbaugh told me Obama is causing gas prices to skyrocket because of his Kenyan Muslim socialist policies, and Rush would never lie. He's the kindest, most good-hearted person I know.


You need to get out more.
 
2012-04-02 02:47:36 AM  
The U.S. is an exporter of refined gasoline. That is all.

/Hint: supply is not an issue. Double hint: When clueless foreign policy stops being clueless, bubble will burst.
 
2012-04-02 07:26:01 AM  

Yankees Team Gynecologist: o5iiawah: Speculators simply bet on the likelyhood of this happening

Neither that, nor anything else you said, is at odds with the notion that speculation can drive up prices.


Progressives still think that fixing the prices of commodities is the answer to rising prices, rather than mitigating the symptons. It might have worked in the New Deal era with things that we chiefly controlled but it will never work with oil. As long as there are stock exchanges, people will be betting on commodities.

Mitigate the affects of concern by reducing demand, increasing supply or easing the supply concerns and watch the speculators go the other way. They didn't just wake up at $1.65 oil on Jan 20, 2009 and decide to almost triple the prices for the lulz
 
2012-04-02 09:57:41 AM  

o5iiawah: Yankees Team Gynecologist: o5iiawah: Speculators simply bet on the likelyhood of this happening

Neither that, nor anything else you said, is at odds with the notion that speculation can drive up prices.

Progressives still think that fixing the prices of commodities is the answer to rising prices, rather than mitigating the symptons. It might have worked in the New Deal era with things that we chiefly controlled but it will never work with oil. As long as there are stock exchanges, people will be betting on commodities.

Mitigate the affects of concern by reducing demand, increasing supply or easing the supply concerns and watch the speculators go the other way. They didn't just wake up at $1.65 oil on Jan 20, 2009 and decide to almost triple the prices for the lulz


The last time an American Progressive tried to fix the price of commodities it led to years of runaway inflation.

And then he got caught sending people to break into the Watergate Hotel.
 
2012-04-02 10:16:24 AM  
Speculators seem to be doing their jobs well. The current administration is unfriendly to fossil fuel production and it now seems likely that Obama will be reelected. It would also seem unlikely that Obama's governance will move right during his 2nd term and so is likely to become more unfriendly to further production. Combine that with the saber rattling over Iran as well as china and India's increasing thirst for oil the price is likely to go up in the future.

The law of supply and demand, you cant explain that.
 
2012-04-02 10:23:48 AM  

BSABSVR: downpaymentblues: quatchi: Kinda used to them not mentioning the fact that US domestic oil production under Obama is at an 8 year high with more oil rigs in production any time since the late 80s (nu-pop)

The majority of the permits for that increase came during the Bush years. It is incorrect to credit Obama for the increase in domestic production simply because the permits applied for years ago came to fruition recently.

I'm not blaming or crediting Obama: I'm just pointing out a fact.

True, but this still negates the premise that we can drill our way to cheap oil id only Obama would let us.


Not true speculators are less concerned with now then they are the future. If it appeared that there was going to more oil on the market in the future in comparison to demand the would bid the market down not up. If the Obama admin was issuing many more permits and were weren't threatening Iran that might happen. But were are going the other way.
 
2012-04-02 11:32:13 AM  
1. The US purchases no Iranian oil and has not for years.

[True but other countries do purchase Iranian oil and if sanctions against Iran cause a disruption in their supply then they will look for other suppliers in order to make up the difference which could mean they tap a US supplier]

2. US oil demand, the highest in the world, is the lowest it's been since the 1990s.

World oil demand however has continued to increase since we are not in a magic bubble free from the demand of others.


3. Speculation is absolutely occurring and raising the price. You're simply wrong if you say otherwise. That's just a fact.
4. Speculation is legal and occurs in every other commodity, and in each of those is responsible for at least some price rise, so pretending it isn't happening is like pretending the sun didn't rise today.


Speculation does indeed affect prices however speculation isn't a bad thing as it does provides a mechanism for bearing risk which helps contain prices from being highly volatile.

5. The same people who say that oil speculation is good for a free market also refuse to end tax breaks to the most profitable businesses
in the country, on the grounds that a fair market is bad.


Taxes do not create a fair market. If anything taxes act as a barrier to entry that causes the market to become concentrated into fewer hands


6. There is a sharp disconnect between gas prices, gas demand, and oil prices. Oil prices rise, triggering an instant gas price rise when the supply of higher oil won't reach the pump as gas for a month at minimum. The rise in price also reduces the demand for gas.

The reason for the instant price increase is because when current gasoline is sold part of its price is the cost to restock it and if the cost of restocking is going to go up then price must adjust to account for that.

7. Supply is relatively constant. Oil production does not vastly increase or decrease on a daily basis, and Iran has been cut off for some time.

World oil consumption however continues to increase even if supply is holding fairly steady. You must remember that oil is not exclusively used just to produce gasoline but plastics, detergents, medicines, synthetics, ink, etc... oil is all around us because it is just that versatile.


Combine all this together, and you have steady supply, rising prices, falling demand and only one variable: speculation.
Now tell me again how speculation can't be raising prices, or disprove any of the above.


So yes speculation has an effect on oil prices, but a far bigger factor is just how versatile oil actually is
 
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