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(STLToday)   New kind of pseudoephedrine can be used to make shake-and-bake black sludge. Now we'll have an epidemic of angry addicts who can't make meth   (stltoday.com ) divider line
    More: Cool, over-the-counter drugs, organized crimes, epidemics, addictions, Jason Grellner, ingredients, Maryland Heights, Blaine Luetkemeyer  
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14366 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Mar 2012 at 1:49 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-29 10:18:04 AM  
And the cartels rejoice!

/I always wonder what these new sludge ingredients actually do to the body
//and if it affects the bio availability of the drug
///because in Okla, allergies are a big farking deal
 
2012-03-29 10:25:32 AM  
a0.twimg.com

/ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
 
2012-03-29 10:35:15 AM  
This is relevant to my interests.

/sinus sufferer
 
2012-03-29 10:56:18 AM  

SecretAgentWoman: This is relevant to my interests.

/sinus sufferer


Does anyone know of any other case where an OTC drug was made prescription for any reason other medical reasons? Will the DEA pay for my unnecessary doctor visits?

[looks at profile]
heh - you and my sister share a not-terribly-common name. She was named for the olympian.
 
2012-03-29 10:59:50 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Does anyone know of any other case where an OTC drug was made prescription for any reason other medical reasons?


I think I've read that pseudoephedrine (or whatever it's in - Sudafed?) started out as prescription, and I often wonder whether drugs go from prescription to OTC for medical reasons, or just due to pharmaceutical companies lobbying.
 
2012-03-29 11:26:11 AM  

dbirchall: I think I've read that pseudoephedrine (or whatever it's in - Sudafed?) started out as prescription, and I often wonder whether drugs go from prescription to OTC for medical reasons, or just due to pharmaceutical companies lobbying.


It's common for drugs to go from scrips to OTC as their side effects get better characterized through wide use (like loratidine and fexofenadine). Yes, drug companies want them to be OTC, especially as they lose their patents on them so they can capitalize on the name brand. But that's a double-edged sword for the drug companies - insurance typically doesn't pay for OTC drugs, so it's hard to successfully market allergy drug at $10/dose. And regardless of the drug companies' motivation, there are solid medical reasons for certain drugs to start out as prescription and then go OTC.

But I'm interested to know if there are any drugs that go from OTC to prescription solely at the behest of law enforcement rather than anyone in the medical industry. And I'm genuinely interested if they've given a single moment's consideration as to how this type of bullshiat affects health care costs.
 
2012-03-29 11:31:06 AM  

Babwa Wawa: SecretAgentWoman: This is relevant to my interests.

/sinus sufferer

Does anyone know of any other case where an OTC drug was made prescription for any reason other medical reasons? Will the DEA pay for my unnecessary doctor visits?


Opium?
 
2012-03-29 11:35:25 AM  

Babwa Wawa: SecretAgentWoman: This is relevant to my interests.

/sinus sufferer

Does anyone know of any other case where an OTC drug was made prescription for any reason other medical reasons? Will the DEA pay for my unnecessary doctor visits?

[looks at profile]
heh - you and my sister share a not-terribly-common name. She was named for the olympian.


I was named for the whore in Dr. Zhivago.
 
2012-03-29 11:38:04 AM  

foo monkey: Opium?


There are medical reasons for opiates to be prescription-only. They are addictive, and improper dosing results in death. Their use should be monitored by a physician.

Sudafed is neither addictive nor is it any more dangerous than most other OTC drugs. Its use does not need to be monitored by a physician. The only reason for putting it behind the counter is to inhibit its use as an ingredient in an illicit drug. I think that might be a first.
 
2012-03-29 11:40:43 AM  

SecretAgentWoman: I was named for the whore in Dr. Zhivago.


LOL. You know, I wonder if the whole olympic gymnast story is a line my parents fed my sister. Those olympics and Dr. Zhivago were just a couple years apart.
 
2012-03-29 12:20:31 PM  
Alright, fine...fast forward say, 2 years when this new ingredient is in every med that contains pseudoephedrine. The meth cooks can no longer use the US supply. Where will the new supplies of ephedrine/meth come from?
 
2012-03-29 12:27:22 PM  

Endive Wombat: Alright, fine...fast forward say, 2 years when this new ingredient is in every med that contains pseudoephedrine. The meth cooks can no longer use the US supply. Where will the new supplies of ephedrine/meth come from?


The same place 90% of it comes from now, Mexico.
 
2012-03-29 12:28:10 PM  

basemetal: Endive Wombat: Alright, fine...fast forward say, 2 years when this new ingredient is in every med that contains pseudoephedrine. The meth cooks can no longer use the US supply. Where will the new supplies of ephedrine/meth come from?

The same place 90% of it comes from now, Mexico.


Sorry, that 90% info was pulled out of my ass, but still....
 
2012-03-29 12:35:49 PM  

Endive Wombat: Alright, fine...fast forward say, 2 years when this new ingredient is in every med that contains pseudoephedrine. The meth cooks can no longer use the US supply. Where will the new supplies of ephedrine/meth come from?


Hmmm...sounds like quick way to get rich...quick!
 
2012-03-29 12:36:09 PM  
And boy will they be angry

/Once the spiders stop crawling under their skin
 
2012-03-29 12:50:16 PM  

basemetal: basemetal: Endive Wombat: Alright, fine...fast forward say, 2 years when this new ingredient is in every med that contains pseudoephedrine. The meth cooks can no longer use the US supply. Where will the new supplies of ephedrine/meth come from?

The same place 90% of it comes from now, Mexico.

Sorry, that 90% info was pulled out of my ass, but still....


I'm assuming that dedicated meth-heads will find a way to get their fix, even if they have to import it, or develop fancier and/or more dangerous procedures. The important goal is to get me actual OTC sinus medication. :)

basemetal: /I always wonder what these new sludge ingredients actually do to the body
//and if it affects the bio availability of the drug


Most pills contain all sorts of ingredients besides the active one. They go through the same safety/efficacy FDA drills as anything else, sludgy or non-sludgy. I'm not saying that everything the FDA approves is perfectly safe (far from it), but rather that there's no reason to suspect this more or less than other random pills.
 
2012-03-29 01:19:24 PM  
The "new" shiat they put out to replace the pseudoephedrine stuff doesn't do shiat for me, so I go to the counter and sign all the forms for the real stuff. Yeah, it can take an extra 10-20 minutes, but I'll take the time to get something that works and DOESN'T dry out my sinuses so much I get nose bleeds. If they want to make it a prescription, they damn well better be paying for the office visit if they're making a drug a prescription for law enforcement reasons.
 
2012-03-29 01:41:46 PM  

chimp_ninja: basemetal: basemetal: Endive Wombat: Alright, fine...fast forward say, 2 years when this new ingredient is in every med that contains pseudoephedrine. The meth cooks can no longer use the US supply. Where will the new supplies of ephedrine/meth come from?

The same place 90% of it comes from now, Mexico.

Sorry, that 90% info was pulled out of my ass, but still....

I'm assuming that dedicated meth-heads will find a way to get their fix, even if they have to import it, or develop fancier and/or more dangerous procedures. The important goal is to get me actual OTC sinus medication. :)

basemetal: /I always wonder what these new sludge ingredients actually do to the body
//and if it affects the bio availability of the drug

Most pills contain all sorts of ingredients besides the active one. They go through the same safety/efficacy FDA drills as anything else, sludgy or non-sludgy. I'm not saying that everything the FDA approves is perfectly safe (far from it), but rather that there's no reason to suspect this more or less than other random pills.


You ever accidentally drop a sinus gel cap in water ( in my case it was a toilet) and not realize it? When I saw that mess one day, it just made me wonder.
 
2012-03-29 01:49:47 PM  

basemetal: Sorry, that 90% info was pulled out of my ass, but still....


Ummm...ass meth...
 
2012-03-29 01:53:40 PM  
Krokodil (new window)
 
2012-03-29 01:54:43 PM  
Hey great they can't make meth out of decongestants anymore.

Bad news is it probably causes rectal bleeding, racism, iritability and heart disease.
 
2012-03-29 01:55:16 PM  
Trolling the methheads? I, for one, approve of this.
 
2012-03-29 01:56:09 PM  
TFA:

There was no meth.

Good, 'cause I was told there would be no meth.
 
2012-03-29 01:56:30 PM  

SecretAgentWoman: This is relevant to my interests.

/sinus sufferer


Seriously. I don't know if it's a placebo effect or what, but the fake pseudophedrine does jack shiat to my sinuses. I'm tired of feeling like a criminal every time I have a sinus headache.
 
2012-03-29 01:58:02 PM  
I wonder how much meth on the streets are local produced or from Mehico. I'm sure it varies greatly from state to state. Here in Louisiana I hear about manufacturers being arrested all the time.
 
2012-03-29 02:00:05 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: SecretAgentWoman: This is relevant to my interests.

/sinus sufferer

Seriously. I don't know if it's a placebo effect or what, but the fake pseudophedrine does jack shiat to my sinuses. I'm tired of feeling like a criminal every time I have a sinus headache.


Just imagine if you were shot by someone or shot someone....your name will be on a list and people will speculate you cook meth automatically making you guilty of somethign.

We need less lists.
 
2012-03-29 02:00:27 PM  
So the new faces of meth will be black?
 
2012-03-29 02:03:16 PM  

Yogimus: Krokodil (new window)


i'm not clicking on your link. if there are pictures, you should warn.

for the most part, drugs are just drugs. they're only unhealthy when over-used (but, very few people seem to be able to control themselves, so they are pretty unhealthy for most users -- but, some occasional user is not going to suffer too much from occasional drug use).

krokodil made me reconsider this opinion and wonder if 80s drug movies were right, and drug dealers are actually out to kill their customers. shutters thinking about the one time i decided to GIS krokodil, and then watch a documentary on it.
 
2012-03-29 02:06:07 PM  
Why would they change this? What citizens aren't happy to be inconvenienced getting perfectly legal things as the government reacts to a small minority of illicit drug users? I was kind of hoping they'd do this with gasoline too. I know many people huff gas. Maybe like paint, we could have to show ID due to huffers, register the MPG of our vehicles and mileage driven so they can be sure we don't huff any extras. Everyone knows the leading supplier of meth ingredients to the cooks is the average sinus/allergy suffered buying that one bottle every spring and making a whopping 4$ reselling to a cook.
 
2012-03-29 02:06:35 PM  

pute kisses like a man: Yogimus: Krokodil (new window)

i'm not clicking on your link. if there are pictures, you should warn.

for the most part, drugs are just drugs. they're only unhealthy when over-used (but, very few people seem to be able to control themselves, so they are pretty unhealthy for most users -- but, some occasional user is not going to suffer too much from occasional drug use).

krokodil made me reconsider this opinion and wonder if 80s drug movies were right, and drug dealers are actually out to kill their customers. shutters thinking about the one time i decided to GIS krokodil, and then watch a documentary on it.


Saw a link in another forum that was from Russia...some sort of injectable drug where people were giving themselves such bad abcesses that there were people in the video being treated where 8 inches oftheir radial and ulna were exposed.
 
2012-03-29 02:06:41 PM  
Yogimus: Krokodil (new window)

The only problem about that is the only reason Krokodil is cost-effective to produce in the Eastern European countries is that you can get codeine over the counter, and not as a mixture of Codine and paracetamol. In addition, it's not the Krokodil that's causing the injuries and death, it's the non-sterile practices of production and purification which promote the growth of microorganisms which are responsible for fulminant gangrene and necrotizing fascitis.
 
2012-03-29 02:07:35 PM  
Oh Christ, but this is just as stupid as the requirement that I get my pseudoephedrine from the druggist and have to fill out a form so the authorities can keep track of me. Meth cookers now get all the pseudoephedrine they need from bulk supplies smuggled out of Asia. It's far cheaper than buying it at the drug store, too.
 
2012-03-29 02:07:41 PM  
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/krokodil-the-drug-that- eats-junkies-2300787.html
 
2012-03-29 02:09:33 PM  
sorry ate the body of my msg. It is no pix, safe for work story of the new drug from eastern europe. Comments go full derp ahead about 7 or 8 in.
 
2012-03-29 02:10:05 PM  
Bausch is tight-lipped about the chemistry; he would not allow the Post-Dispatch to visit the lab or photograph the chemists. He said the so-called Tarex technology within the Releva product essentially uses lipids, or fats, to help prevent pseudoephedrine from being extracted.

Bausch compares the consistency of the pill to chocolate. Grellner describes it as candle wax. It cannot be ground up, is not soluble and cannot be smoked, Bausch said.


I don't know anything about the chemistry of making meth, but this sounds easily defeatable. I would think extraction with a suitable solvent would allow removal of the waxy stuff (e.g., removal of the wax with gasoline extraction, then remove the gasoline with ethanol extraction, then you can go back to water).
 
2012-03-29 02:11:13 PM  
I thougjt the enlighted posters of Fark were in favor of legalized drugs...including Meth?
 
2012-03-29 02:11:43 PM  

Yogimus: Krokodil (new window)


that's farking disgusting
 
2012-03-29 02:12:41 PM  
You know, the problem with trying to render a primary ingredient unusable in clandestine manufacturing is that a whole lot of extremely talented chemists and cooks are going to be on the hunt for a method reverse the 'black sludge' properties and revert it back to good 'ole pseudo. On top of that, these exceptional chemists will already understand how to use speed in a positive manner - that is, as high-octane brain fuel. A workaround is inevitable. Over the years, the gov't has placed huge restrictions on the availability of chemicals used in traditional meth lab (kitchen, bathroom) based mfg; the response has been to develop a way to make the shiat in a Coke bottle while beating-off in the car on the way to Wal-Mart.
 
2012-03-29 02:13:00 PM  
I don't think it will take the tweakers and the cooks long to find a way around it. They always do.
 
2012-03-29 02:13:26 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: SecretAgentWoman: This is relevant to my interests.

/sinus sufferer

Seriously. I don't know if it's a placebo effect or what, but the fake pseudophedrine does jack shiat to my sinuses. I'm tired of feeling like a criminal every time I have a sinus headache.


It was tested as no better than a placebo in relieving congestion. Link (new window)
 
2012-03-29 02:14:09 PM  
2 grams: I thougjt the enlighted posters of Fark were in favor of legalized drugs...including Meth?

There's a difference between being for the legalization of drugs which demonstrate no more harm than currently legal recreational substances, such as MDMA and Marijuana, and being for the legalization of Methamphetamine.
 
2012-03-29 02:14:27 PM  
Hey ummm GIS for Krokodil turns up the person with the radial and ulna exposed.
 
2012-03-29 02:14:51 PM  
You stop making one kind of drug available and the addicts will just move on to an even worse drug for their high.

Like Crocodile (new window). (Not for those eating lunch.)

It's not really a solution to the overall problem. Meth is a crazy, stupid, dangerous drug; not just for the users but for those around them. However, the paranoia over access to decongestants seems ill-justified.
 
2012-03-29 02:16:02 PM  

pute kisses like a man: krokodil made me reconsider this opinion and wonder if 80s drug movies were right, and drug dealers are actually out to kill their customers.


Nobody is dealing krokodil. Nobody wants it, not even the users. They only use it because it's always available.

Giltric: Saw a link in another forum that was from Russia...some sort of injectable drug where people were giving themselves such bad abcesses that there were people in the video being treated where 8 inches oftheir radial and ulna were exposed.


That's krokodil.
 
2012-03-29 02:18:42 PM  

SpaceyCat: The "new" shiat they put out to replace the pseudoephedrine stuff doesn't do shiat for me, so I go to the counter and sign all the forms for the real stuff. Yeah, it can take an extra 10-20 minutes, but I'll take the time to get something that works and DOESN'T dry out my sinuses so much I get nose bleeds. If they want to make it a prescription, they damn well better be paying for the office visit if they're making a drug a prescription for law enforcement reasons.


Phenylephrine is crap. Most of the actual studies they've done of it agree that it has no use as a decongestant. It's a perfectly good vasoconstrictor, though. Pseudoephedrine works beautifully.

/csb: I was dying of allergies last year and went to buy some real Sudafed. The pharmacy technician starts to tell me that the reason they need to scan my license is because you can make meth from it. I wasn't thinking and said "yeah, all you need is [ingredient list]." She sort of freaked out.

//chemist
 
2012-03-29 02:18:48 PM  

violentsalvation: I don't think it will take the tweakers and the cooks long to find a way around it. They always do.


I've always kinda wondered about that process. Somebody is figuring out how to make meth, but it doesn't seem like it would be the idiots cooking it. Is it really that easy to reverse engineer this stuff? Is it just trial and error? Are they hiring some smart guy to do it? It's a mystery to me.
 
2012-03-29 02:19:30 PM  

2 grams: I thougjt the enlighted posters of Fark were in favor of legalized drugs...including Meth?


Sure yeah, let's keep it illegal so it is produced in dangerous manners and then discarded shake&bake bombs can be left at school bus stops. All funded by ripping the wiring out of your home while you are at the market. Because keeping it illegal works so farking awesome.
 
2012-03-29 02:20:43 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: pute kisses like a man: krokodil made me reconsider this opinion and wonder if 80s drug movies were right, and drug dealers are actually out to kill their customers.

Nobody is dealing krokodil. Nobody wants it, not even the users. They only use it because it's always available.

Giltric: Saw a link in another forum that was from Russia...some sort of injectable drug where people were giving themselves such bad abcesses that there were people in the video being treated where 8 inches oftheir radial and ulna were exposed.

That's krokodil.


And those folks deserve death, because they have regressed to such a point of dependency that their humanity is lost.
 
2012-03-29 02:22:57 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: violentsalvation: I don't think it will take the tweakers and the cooks long to find a way around it. They always do.

I've always kinda wondered about that process. Somebody is figuring out how to make meth, but it doesn't seem like it would be the idiots cooking it. Is it really that easy to reverse engineer this stuff? Is it just trial and error? Are they hiring some smart guy to do it? It's a mystery to me.


I've always suspected it was college or grad school chemistry students who figure out the process and it spreads like wildfire.
 
2012-03-29 02:23:30 PM  
The Irresponsible Captain: You stop making one kind of drug available and the addicts will just move on to an even worse drug for their high.

Like Crocodile (new window). (Not for those eating lunch.)

It's not really a solution to the overall problem. Meth is a crazy, stupid, dangerous drug; not just for the users but for those around them. However, the paranoia over access to decongestants seems ill-justified.


Maybe it's just in your area, but would you like to point out where you can buy unadulterated codeine over the counter in the United States? That's the only way Krokodil would ever become endemic to the western countries.
 
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