Phinn: tirob: Phinn: Private citizens are not cops, and we do not need permission, or probable cause, or reasonable suspicion, or any other basis to approach anyone, anywhere

Are you going to teach your seven year old son that it is all right for any adult to approach him on the highway at any time and for any reason?

------------------------

Uh ... Interesting question. I hadn't really thought about that one, but if I had to take a stand on this issue, I'd start with teaching him to stay away from highways at night.

And if he's under an imminent threat of injury, to ensure his safety by any means necessary, not to allow himself to get drawn into a pointless, childish display of bravado, or a contest for ghetto-respect, inasumch at doing so merely evidences a deep-seated insecurity over one's social status, which is the opposite of the intended result of such displays.

And that he's got to know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em.

And that the Lord loves a working man, and don't trust whitey. See a doctor and get rid of it.

"Highway" is a legal term that means any public thoroughfare, including a pedestrian thoroughfare. Whether you like it or not, your son will be on the highway at night long before he turns 18.

CSB, which I already posted on another thread: When I was 17, I was driving around in my neighborhood during the daytime with a buddy of mine, who was then 15. A car pulled up next to mine and the passenger in it flashed a card, indicated to me that he was a cop, and told me to pull over. I instantly came to the conclusion that the guy wasn't a cop, and I got the hell out of there. If the driver of the other car had cut me off, I would have rammed him; if he had succeeded in doing so, I'd have either fled, or fought the pair in the other car, or both. I believed, and believe now, that if I hadn't been as streetwise a kid as I was, the men in the other car would at least have knocked me to the ground and stolen my car.

Not entirely apposite with what happened to Trayvon Martin, of course--there is no evidence that Zimmerman tried to impersonate a police officer, for one thing--but an incident like this leads me to believe that there are damn good reasons that people get busted for approaching or even addressing unaccompanied kids whom they don't know, unless they have a cracking good reason for doing so, such as protection of the kid's life or limb.

tirob: CSB, which I already posted on another thread: When I was 17, I was driving around in my neighborhood during the daytime with a buddy of mine, who was then 15. A car pulled up next to mine and the passenger in it flashed a card, indicated to me that he was a cop, and told me to pull over. I instantly came to the conclusion that the guy wasn't a cop, and I got the hell out of there. If the driver of the other car had cut me off, I would have rammed him; if he had succeeded in doing so, I'd have either fled, or fought the pair in the other car, or both. I believed, and believe now, that if I hadn't been as streetwise a kid as I was, the men in the other car would at least have knocked me to the ground and stolen my car.

Not entirely app ...

And yet, from the 70s to the 90s, we were taught that it was against the law to attack someone for threatening behavior, even jumping at you and yelling "BOO!" or "KILL YOU!" Heck, I remember entire gangs playing the "jump scare" game where I grew up, and getting people sent to jail if they countered the threat with any attack, even shoving them away.

Sounds like you just want to have it both ways, the right to jump at and threaten people for you own lulz as well as the right to beat the snot out of anyone who does the same to you.

/because you know you were just kidding when you do it, so everybody else should, amirite?

Tatterdemalian: tirob: CSB, which I already posted on another thread: When I was 17, I was driving around in my neighborhood during the daytime with a buddy of mine, who was then 15. A car pulled up next to mine and the passenger in it flashed a card, indicated to me that he was a cop, and told me to pull over. I instantly came to the conclusion that the guy wasn't a cop, and I got the hell out of there. If the driver of the other car had cut me off, I would have rammed him; if he had succeeded in doing so, I'd have either fled, or fought the pair in the other car, or both. I believed, and believe now, that if I hadn't been as streetwise a kid as I was, the men in the other car would at least have knocked me to the ground and stolen my car.

Not entirely app ...

And yet, from the 70s to the 90s, we were taught that it was against the law to attack someone for threatening behavior, even jumping at you and yelling "BOO!" or "KILL YOU!" Heck, I remember entire gangs playing the "jump scare" game where I grew up, and getting people sent to jail if they countered the threat with any attack, even shoving them away.

Sounds like you just want to have it both ways, the right to jump at and threaten people for you own lulz as well as the right to beat the snot out of anyone who does the same to you.

/because you know you were just kidding when you do it, so everybody else should, amirite?

Different result here because one of the actors is an adult and the other is a juvenile.

tirob:
Different result here because one of the actors is an adult and the other is was a juvenile.

FTFM

@Phinn: In connection with a possible disorderly conduct charge against Zimmerman for approaching Martin, I note that the stories about the prelude to the confrontation offered by the two sides in this case differ dramatically.

Martin's girlfriend says, or at least strongly implies, that the confrontation began while Zimmerman was following Martin.

Robert Zimmerman says that George Zimmerman told him that he, George, had broken off his chase and that George was returning to his truck when Martin approached George.

Martin's girlfriend may have been coached by Mr. Crump, the lawyer retained by Martin's parents. On the other hand, Robert Zimmerman is a retired judge; he of all people would know damn well that his son may have been doing something illegal if he was following Martin, a juvenile, when the confrontation broke out. Furthermore, Robert Zimmerman's assertion is hearsay; the girl's declaration ("I heard the line go dead" or something to that effect) is not hearsay.

FWIW, I've cracked my head hard enough to need a couple stitches on two occasions, both times the wounds bled so much I just threw away the clothes I was wearing.

/CSB
//even small head wounds bleed like crazy

tirob: Robert Zimmerman says that George Zimmerman told him that he, George, had broken off his chase and that George was returning to his truck when Martin approached George.

Which doesn't preclude him actually still advancing to Martin, if he had run beyond Martin's hiding place and turned around. Martin may have then thought that he was being sought.

if only this dude would have said ANYTHING re: neighborhood watch. At least would have made him clearly not look like a threat. The official "neighborhood watch" garb helped, if you are in a viewing of Thriller.

I like the way that "he was going for my gun" has started to creep in the story.

stebain: tirob: Robert Zimmerman says that George Zimmerman told him that he, George, had broken off his chase and that George was returning to his truck when Martin approached George.

Which doesn't preclude him actually still advancing to Martin, if he had run beyond Martin's hiding place and turned around. Martin may have then thought that he was being sought.

if only this dude would have said ANYTHING re: neighborhood watch. At least would have made him clearly not look like a threat. The official "neighborhood watch" garb helped, if you are in a viewing of Thriller.

True but only if Martin was located between Zimmerman and his truck.

What Zimmerman should have said, if he was within shouting distance of Martin, and if he thought Martin could see him, was, "Excuse me, can I help you?"

tirob: the girl's declaration ("I heard the line go dead" or something to that effect) is not hearsay.

Apart from the credibility problem, the non-hearsay portion of the girlfriend's statement (the line went dead) doesn't actually provide evidence of who was following whom.

stebain: Which doesn't preclude him actually still advancing to Martin, if he had run beyond Martin's hiding place and turned around. Martin may have then thought that he was being sought.

You suck as a novelist.

If you are going to fill in the knowledge gaps with speculation, then at least give your attempt at fiction some panache. Couldn't you throw in a Dirty Harry line or two about giving coons what they deserve? Or maybe an old-timey "eat lead" or something? Anything?

Phinn: tirob: the girl's declaration ("I heard the line go dead" or something to that effect) is not hearsay.

Apart from the credibility problem, the non-hearsay portion of the girlfriend's statement (the line went dead) doesn't actually provide evidence of who was following whom.


Not on its face. But I would argue that if Martin was talking to the girl at the time the confrontation started, it is unlikely that he was following Zimmerman at the same time. Even Robert Zimmerman didn't report hearing his son tell him that he heard Martin tell the girl anything like, "Hold on while I jack this fat dude up." If Martin was the kind of kid who went in for displays of bravado as you have intimated here, and as Robert Zimmerman implies ("'Got a problem?' 'No.' 'You do now!'"), that is *just* the kind of thing he would say, and *just* the person he would say it to.

PS: As I hope I made clear in the post that you answered, I wouldn't give Robert Zimmerman's word any more weight in evidence than the girl's based on what I have heard so far.

UPDATE:

White supremacists are now hacking Trayvon martin's email, facebook, etc. in further attempts to smear him. Link (new window)

Shiat's about to get real.

/why are the Fark admins refusing to green any threads about this?

Thunderpipes: No reasonable person (and no jury) would ever think silently following someone briefly constituted a threat of bodily harm.

Wait, what?