From the Florida Statutes:

776.041Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter [i.e. the Stand Your Ground Law] is not available to a person who:
(1)Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b)In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

(Emphasis mine.) In other words, an initial aggressor cannot claim self-defense unless 1) the intended victim fights back and the agressor has no opportunity to escape save the use of deadly force, or 2) the agressor tries to back down by words or acts, but the intended victim will not let him.

As the 911 call established, Zimmerman went looking for trouble, so he's the intial aggressor. Questions 1) and 2) are for the jury to decide, even with the evidence that Martin fought back, but there's more than enough probable cause IMO to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter or second degree murder.

Scerpes: Brainsick: Zimmerman loses all access to the Stand Your Ground defense when he pursues Martin

That's ridiculous, and not true under Florida statute.

Then Florida statute is wrong.

If Zimmerman had stayed on the phone, in his car, and waited for the cops, Martin (and his skittles) would be alive today. Agree? There was no reason to 'stand his ground'. There was no ground. Not until Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin. Which he had no reason to do.

Digitalstrange: That's the part that really blows my mind. Even if you totally believe his story and think he was defending himself, as a cop I would have brought him down to the station in cuffs and questioned him with the DA listening in and pass that buck for the DA to call whether or not he got charged.

Florida law makes it clear that the police cannot detain you under these circumstances. Link (new window)

the circumstances (new window)

Joe Blowme: Wicked Chinchilla: Joe Blowme: Wicked Chinchilla: GendoIkari: A better article from the Orlando Sentinel HERE . Says that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman first.

A good part of that article is contradicted by the actual phone records of Trayvon's conversation with his girlfriend. And most of his testimony has in fact NOT been corroborated, thats the bloody problem.

/not a better article

Where can we find the williams phone recording? Post link please

They have yet to be released. The Lawyer is sharing the testimony from the g/f with the FBI though. I would imagine they could get access to them if anyone could.

The point of all this is there are several conflicting stories bouncing around, Zimmermans testimony doesn't add up because of the geography involved (among other things), but his injuries do show he was in fact hit. Obviously something went down. My issue with the entire thing is it seems like SFD did the absolute minimum after an unarmed teenager was shot under circumstances that were very, very far from cut and dried.

So there is not recording, just her testimony of what happened. Posters we making it sound like there was another actual recording. So we will have a he said she said between her and the eye witness. Back to square one.

We never left square one. The phone call testimony doesn't indicate who swung first, it just goes to discredit his statement. The problem, is that his statement is the only account of the events and it just doesn't make sense. The one other eyewitness that backs up his statement is contradicted by the phone call as well as two other eyewitnesses. The released 911 calls are as yet inconclusive as to who is doing the yelling. Its a big "he said/she said/they said/you said" bullshiat fest. I am more suspicious of Zimmerman because his statement flat out does not make sense given the geography of the neighborhood, the eyewitnesses closest to the scene concur with one another (and not zimmerman), and the time stamp on the phone log verifies that Trayvon was in fact on the phone with his g/f at the time.

Not to mention the other things related to Zimmerman itself: he wasn't in a real, registered, Neighborhood Watch program at all yet he appointed himself the title of Neighborhood Watch Leader in his own little imaginary neighborhood watch. Then his pursuit of Martin, and violating rules that regular NW programs must follow... Frankly, its far more easy to believe that Zimmerman got carried away with the self-appointed neighborhood protector role than Martin casing houses for theft and jumping him from behind.

rufus-t-firefly: GranoblasticMan: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: RDixon: GendoIkari: A better article from the Orlando Sentinel HERE . Says that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman first.

Did he pull him out of his vehicle?

Note to self: never get out of your vehicle or else other people are justified in attacking you

Note to self: Don't walk through a neighborhood wearing a hoodie while enjoying some Arizona Iced Tea and a pack of Skittles. This is reasonable justification to be shot dead.

Maybe Zimmerman is diabetic.

You're right. We've heard the race side, the second amendment side, the political side... We need to have Wilford Brimley weigh in on the issue as well!

Zimmerman flew

eraser8: Thunderpipes: Maybe it is because every time there is even a possibility of a racial situation, he jumps in with mouth flapping?

He was asked a question; he answered it.

Thunderpipes: Gates incident anyone?

He was asked a question; he answered it.

Thunderpipes: Obama is half white, how come he never sees crime against white people in the same light?

What are you basing that on?

Thunderpipes: He takes racist slants at every opportunity because it gets him votes.

Actually, I'd say Obama's been pretty careful to avoid wading into racial issues.

Thunderpipes: Obama is racist, this is pretty clear and not news.

I suspect you think Obama's a racist because you are a racist. You see the evil in yourself and assume that the evil is also in him.

BS post if there ever was one. He was asked a question and answered it? No, he called the white cop (who worked for race relations tirelessly) stupid for arresting a black man even though the guy really deserved it. Then instead of apologize had a beer with the guy. Cool enough, but does not excuse it. he says "this could have been my kid" well, no shiat sherlock, so could any white person murdered. it was perfectly clear what he was referring to, blackness. Pretty careful to avoid racism? I hope you are kidding. His Justice Department doesn't care about Black Panthers threatening white people at a polling center, but unleashes them on someone because the victim was black? Arghhh!!!

Cover for him all you want, your Messiah is a racist dick.

I just hope this dosent turn into a bunch of Rodney King riots. Zimmerman should be in jail.

thamike: Scerpes: Unless I'm mistaken, we don't even have testimony from the girlfriend.

How would you get testimony without an arrest, a charge, or a trial? Are you starting to see a pattern here, genius? The problem is a failure in procedure. Everything else comes later, in court.

That's fair. But normally, you would at least have a statement to police. You don't have that.

Brainsick: Scerpes: Brainsick: Zimmerman loses all access to the Stand Your Ground defense when he pursues Martin

That's ridiculous, and not true under Florida statute.

Then Florida statute is wrong.

I don't disagree with that.

dittybopper: cryinoutloud: A big fat fark chased down a kid when he didn't need to and ended up shooting him.
So, it's your contention that a morbidly obese 5'9" tall 250 lb 29 year old was able to chase down an athletic 6'3" tall 140 lb 17 year old nicknamed "Slimm" on foot?

He ran after him, the kid was running away from him. He chased him--obviously, it's in the 911 call in Zimmerman's own words.. He didn't need to chase him and he was in the wrong there. He escalated the situation when he didn't need to.

but you read this 20 times already and you're still trying to defend the guy just because he had a gun. Face it, dittybopper, the gun people look bad in this one. None of this would have happened if Zimmerman hadn't felt the need to go running around looking for trouble while he was armed.

Zimmerman Flew!

groppet: I just hope this dosent turn into a bunch of Rodney King riots. Zimmerman should be in jail.

I've got my .357 handy if it does ...

Nearly 700 posts and still no Trale Lewous?


I am disappoint.

Grables'Daughter: Andromeda: "As far as, I mean as far as George being racist, I didn't take it as a racist term. I heard 'goon' and talking to my teenage daughter, apparently goon is a term of endearment in high school these days," he said.

Yes, I'm sure that "goon" is a term of endearment that Zimmerman was using.

This is just pathetic.

WHY HAS ZIMMERMAN NOT BEEN ARRESTED?

ever been to Sanford?

canyoneer: Sounds like a sh*thole to me.

It is.

But I have no idea WTF that has to do with this thread.

Flab: Scerpes: Do you have a link to the report? I haven't been able to find it yet.

jbuist 09:04:54AM in this thread.

Awesome. Thanks!

Zimmerman is a tool, who is the architect of his own demise. Racism played a part in his actions and the inaction of the Sanford PD but stupidity reigns all around. This will all be dealt with.

Zimmerman will be arrested. SPD, FBI, JD have no choice in the matter now. Far too much attention has been given.

Any defense used for Zimmerman will be irrelevant. He will be convicted. I doubt any part of Florida or other parts of the US could survive the amount of rioting that would ensue if he were acquitted. Think Rodney King. That would be costly. Isn't the US about due for a good riot?

Zimmerman has no support in the prison system. Are you telling me the Aryan nation will back this half Jewish, half Spanish, murderer who may have been getting his ass beat by a 17 year old who weighed approximately 80 pounds less than him? Which places Zimmerman in my Death Pool for 2012. He has a superior chance of getting shanked in the Florida prison system. I hope it's painful and he gets what he deserves.

As for the SPD, time for a shake up.

I feel for Trayvon's family. What a tragedy.

cryinoutloud: dittybopper: cryinoutloud: A big fat fark chased down a kid when he didn't need to and ended up shooting him.
So, it's your contention that a morbidly obese 5'9" tall 250 lb 29 year old was able to chase down an athletic 6'3" tall 140 lb 17 year old nicknamed "Slimm" on foot?

He ran after him, the kid was running away from him. He chased him--obviously, it's in the 911 call in Zimmerman's own words.. He didn't need to chase him and he was in the wrong there. He escalated the situation when he didn't need to.

but you read this 20 times already and you're still trying to defend the guy just because he had a gun. Face it, dittybopper, the gun people look bad in this one. None of this would have happened if Zimmerman hadn't felt the need to go running around looking for trouble while he was armed.

Dude, drop the gun issue. The stink of the case has fark all to do with Zimmerman having a gun. He could have been armed with a baton, sword, knife, whatever. His actions on the 911 call and his proclivity for excessively calling dispatch about "suspicious persons," inventing himself into a neighborhood watch captain of a nonexistent neighborhood watch, etc. are the root of the problem, not that he had a firearm.

DROxINxTHExWIND: Silly Jesus: Stupid people are stupid.

Just because you start a fight doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to defend yourself against an unnecessary return beating.

*Headdesk*

So if I walk up to you and push you then you can kill me and I have no right to put up a defense?

Killing someone for pushing you isn't a far cry for killing someone for carrying skittles.

I see your *Headdesk* and raise you one *facepalm*

Walker: I'm outraged that a boy armed with nothing more than skittles and tea had the nerve to defend himself when attacked by a complete stranger who had been stalking him. Outraged I tell you!

This. Geez.

C'mon, you guys.

Only liberals get to act as judge-jury-executioner.
Only liberals get to operate lynch mobs and offer rewards.
Only liberals get to make up whatever shiat they need to make up

No one else need apply. It's amazing how many people have the ability to go back in time and be able to stand there as whatever happened, so they can tell the rest of us now exactly what happened then. Neat trick.

Smeggy Smurf: All this outrage is jealousy that Zimmerman got to shoot somebody who wears baggy pants. Who hasn't wanted to do that?

/pull your pants up

When you put it like that, it makes a whole lot more sense. But that only warrants a shooting in the ass. with a .22.

MasterThief: From the Florida Statutes:

776.041Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter [i.e. the Stand Your Ground Law] is not available to a person who:
(1)Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b)In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

(Emphasis mine.) In other words, an initial aggressor cannot claim self-defense unless 1) the intended victim fights back and the agressor has no opportunity to escape save the use of deadly force, or 2) the agressor tries to back down by words or acts, but the intended victim will not let him.

As the 911 call established, Zimmerman went looking for trouble, so he's the intial aggressor. Questions 1) and 2) are for the jury to decide, even with the evidence that Martin fought back, but there's more than enough probable cause IMO to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter or second degree murder.

A effing phone call doesn't make you an aggressor. Following someone that ran of doesn't make you an aggressor. Stuffing your hand down inside your belt as if to grab something might be a threatening move.

Telling someone, 'you have a problem now' might be deemed aggressive.
Punching someone in the face might be an aggressive move.
Jumping on them and hitting them might be deemed aggressive.

or did fatty 28 year old really catch up with the 140lb 6'3'' football player totally meekly running away.? ho ho ho

Silly Jesus: Stupid people are stupid.

If you think that someone is breaking into an apartment, and you then walk up to them and say "hey motherfarker, what do you think that you are doing" and then they start to beat the shiat out of you, you at that point have every right to self defense.

Farkers seem to think that if you walk up to someone and say something to them then you must tie your hands behind your back and take whatever you have coming to you.

Now if you go up to the suspected burglar (or whatever he thought Trayvon was) and jump on his back, then the waters are a little more muddy. The guy would have every right to try to get you off of his back, but the force should be reasonable and proportional to the beating that you are taking. If a wife slaps her husband he can't retaliate by shooting her in the head, for example. Same here. If Zimmerman jumped on Trayvon, and Trayvon was able to get on top of Zimmerman, as some accounts indicate, then Zimmerman doesn't have to just lay there and take it. If he thinks that he's going to be knocked unconscious etc. by Trayvon then he can again defend himself. It's all about being proportional. Just because you start a fight doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to defend yourself against an unnecessary return beating.

You have got to be the dumbest motherfarker to ever grace these forums.

eraser8: Nutsac_Jim: When you are hanging out behind peoples houses in a hood after dark, sometimes things might happen to you, especially if you assault someone and comes out to say 'what are you doing here'

Martin was being followed, he knew he was being followed and he was nervous about it.

This wasn't loitering or trespass. This was a kid trying to get away from a lunatic.

But the kid was a "farking coon" wearing a hoodie. He deserved to get shot.

If you start a fight, and the other guy dies in the fight, it doesn't matter if you were losing and losing bad up until the time you killed him---you're legally farked for having started the fight (where somebody died) in the first place.

If the other guy starts a fight, and he breaks it off and leaves or tries to, and you follow him and keep the fight going----if the other guy dies in the fight, it doesn't matter if you were losing and losing bad up until the time you killed him. You're legally farked for keeping the fight going when you could have let it end.

The reason "stand your ground" laws got/get passed is because people were getting prosecuted for murder when they didn't start the fight, and didn't keep the fight going when the other guy tried to break it off or when they reasonably could have walked away. People who defended themselves so that the attacker died were being put away for murder, or being forced through a murder trial (which is almost as bad even if you "win"), because the basement had a back door or the alley had an exit and technically they could have retreated---even though the attacker could probably run faster than they could and trying to run would have been stupid and suicidal and likely gotten them killed.

"Stand your ground" was passed because "duty to retreat" was being applied very stupidly.

"Stand your ground" never made it legal to start the fight, or to keep the fight going if the other guy tried to walk away from it (even if the other guy started it).

Trayvon Martin was a big, hulking football player who looked like the stereotypical scary black guy---and who was minding his own damned business living his life when Zimmerman picked a fight with him.

Zimmerman's legally farked, and he ought to be. It might be a case of manslaughter rather than premeditated murder. Zimmerman doesn't necessarily deserve the death penalty just because the cops were too dumb and racist to arrest his ass on the spot and throw him in jail.

Zimmerman picked a fight because he didn't like a guy coming over in his neighborhood because he was mad about a lot of thefts and suspected the guy. He got hot-headed and killed the other guy in the fight.

Zimmerman should have been treated then---and should be treated now---just like any other guy who gets in a hot-headed fight and kills the other guy.

It's outrageous that the cops didn't treat him just like any other guy---but that doesn't make Zimmerman's crime any worse or better than anyone else who did the same damn thing. That's the point---Zimmerman is no different than anyone else. He's just another hot-head punk who picked a fight and killed somebody.

What someone with a broken nose may not look like:

Nutsac_Jim: or did fatty 28 year old really catch up with the 140lb 6'3'' football player totally meekly running away.? ho ho ho

Travyon's girlfriend indicated that he walked away, and declined to run when she asked him to.

Flab: Police didn't even bother looking at the kid's phone to look at this recent call list, or address book.
Police didn't even bother getting the phone record from the carrier.
Martin was listed as "John Doe" in the morgue, until his dad filed a missing person claim the next day.

Reporters got the T-Mobile phone records and tracked the girl friend. That says a lot about the quality of the police work in that case.

SOOOO much THIS.

Sonner said the so-called stand-your-ground law, under which a person who feels threatened is not required to retreat and can "meet force with force" if attacked, will be applicable in the case.

Absolutely it will! I mean, Treyvon was just walking down the street and was accosted by an armed thug who thought he was some neighborhood Batman. Treyvon had the right to defend himself by punching the armed assailant in the face.

barneyfifesbullet: C'mon, you guys.

Only liberals get to act as judge-jury-executioner.
Only liberals get to operate lynch mobs and offer rewards.
Only liberals get to make up whatever shiat they need to make up

No one else need apply. It's amazing how many people have the ability to go back in time and be able to stand there as whatever happened, so they can tell the rest of us now exactly what happened then. Neat trick.

Oh lookie, the old, racist, scared, stupid, failed white man chimes in.

Would everyone please just stop arguing and head on over to my Etsey Store and check out my new rainbow colored Skittles Holsters? You can get a regular hip holster, or a crocheted shoulder holster, or specialty knit carry concealed skittles holster. I knit them in rainbow yarn so your gay friends will like them, too. Next week I'll be offering tea cozy holsters so you can reload your caffeine levels. I also have a nice "what-appears-to-be-a-crocheted-holster-and-a-bag-of-skittles-but-real ly-is-a-9mm-holster-so-surprise" model. That one is selling like hotcakes, so preorder, ok?

eraser8: Nutsac_Jim: When you are hanging out behind peoples houses in a hood after dark, sometimes things might happen to you, especially if you assault someone and comes out to say 'what are you doing here'

Martin was being followed, he knew he was being followed and he was nervous about it.

This wasn't loitering or trespass. This was a kid trying to get away from a lunatic.

I always stuff my hand down inside my belt in my pants and walk towards someone when I am nervous. It;s like a twitch.

I always say 'you got a problem?" "Yeah, well you do now" when I am nervous and trying to get out of there. twitch twitch. Hell, his girlfriend told him to leave and he said he wasn't going to.

If he ran home, then how did fatty beat him there. Fatty was on the phone, clearly not running.