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(Daily Mail)   Not News: Couple gets married. News: Wedding gets crashed. Fark: By the Queen of England   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 165
    More: Cool, Manchester Evening News, Duke of Edinburgh, Westminster Abbey, Prince Philip, Icing on the Cake, Manchester City Council, Salford the Queen  
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22576 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Mar 2012 at 1:47 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-25 11:12:30 AM

Ivan Tudor C McHock: The queen is a useless parasite who sponges millions from people who actually earn their living, and in return, she contributes nothing.


Errr, about that....

The existence of the Royal family actually creates a POSITIVE cash flow for the UK. (new window)
 
2012-03-25 11:28:33 AM

sycraft:
As a simple example: The Queen's Guards are the equivalent to the Marines on Presidential Guard Duty. They are basically ceremonial infantry (though of course highly trained and capable of fighting if necessary) who are there for the benefit of diplomacy. Sharp looking people in uniform to open doors for the diplomats and that kind of thing. If there was no Queen, they wouldn't go away. They'd probably get a name change and maybe a uniform change, but they'd still be used for the same reason.


All the soldiers who guard the queen spend half their time fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. They do some tours there and some tours wearing the fancy costumes outside Buck House. They are front line soldiers.
 
2012-03-25 11:29:22 AM

Ace of Swords: KiplingKat872: DeadMouseTails: borg: Shadow Blasko: gadian: What is appropriate decorum when an American woman meets the Queen? I'd be tempted to try and curtsy, but I'm guessing that's a no no.

A curtsy is appropriate. For men, a bow, from the neck only.

If you were to engage her in conversation, when greeting, address her as Your Majesty initially, and after that... simply ma'am is sufficient.

American woman do not need to the queen. The queen knows this and does not expect it from Americans.

She may not expect it, but wouldn't it be considered respectful? I mean, she may not be our Queen, but she is royalty.

We had a bit of a violent discusion that included not expressing fealty to the monarch of England anymore in the 18th century.

That is what a bow/curtsy is: an expression of fealty.

A bow/curtesy is not and never was an expression of fealty. Otherwise monarchs wouldn't let their subjects bow/curtsey to foreign monarchs, which has never been the case.


All the histories I am looking up say the bow/curtsy is a gesture of inferiority. And what do you think a bow is but exposing your neck, putting yourself in a completely vulnerable, position to a ruler?
 
2012-03-25 11:31:17 AM

shArkh: sendbillmoney: DeadMouseTails: She may not expect it, but wouldn't it be considered respectful? I mean, she may not be our Queen, but she is royalty.

Respectful to her, perhaps, but disrespectful to those who died in order to keep us from having to bow to George III.

Biggest mistake you lot ever made. How's that whole governing yourselves thing going thesedays? Couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery, honestly. I've never seen politics resemble the special olympics more closely.


Like you all are doing better right now...
 
2012-03-25 11:35:21 AM

Slartibartfaster: KiplingKat872: We had a bit of a violent discusion that included not expressing fealty to the monarch of England anymore in the 18th century

Then came the pledge of allegiance


In which we pledge alligiance to the nation, not the president or any governing body.

Though don't get me started on the "under god..." amendment to it.
 
2012-03-25 11:39:27 AM
I don't have a problem with the Queen. The office she fulfills obviously works for the U.K. and she seems like a very cool person (so was her Dad). What does bother me is watching Americans fall all over themselves for the Royals as if they were British subjects.
 
2012-03-25 11:39:28 AM
Never upstage the bride!
 
2012-03-25 12:00:39 PM

KiplingKat872: In which we pledge alligiance to the nation, not the president or any governing body


al·le·giance [uh-lee-juhns]
noun
1.
the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign.

Root word = liege

liege adj \ˈlēj\

Definition of LIEGE

1
a : having the right to feudal allegiance or service

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-03-25 12:06:19 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: dletter: I'm like many Americans in thinking that having actual "royalty" in the 21st century is way outdated.... but that was still pretty cool.

Actually, I'm OK with royalty as it's defined in Britain. The monarch's job is to be consulted, to advise, to encourage and occasionally to warn. In this way, you hae a person who understands the nation and politics, but isn;t actually involved in them. She can advise, but she can't decree. I think that's a good idea.


SN1987a goes boom: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x685]

I hope they didn't pay upfront for the wedding photographer.



So that is her, and not some professional body double (I had a sad when I saw a chick who professionally doubled as Britney Spears at events in the early 2000s, she was happy about it, and the little kids who got her autographs were happy about it, but I'd have felt gyped if come to find out the prized autograph I got was from a double and not the real thing)?
 
2012-03-25 12:08:37 PM

KiplingKat872: All the histories I am looking up say the bow/curtsy is a gesture of inferiority. And what do you think a bow is but exposing your neck, putting yourself in a completely vulnerable, position to a ruler?


Okay, maybe back then, but in the modern age it's a sign of respect. Bows are not unique to one culture.

You're also backtracking from your assertion of it being a gesture of fealty. Now you're saying it's a gesture of inferiority. Which is it?

Also, if you're saying it's a gesture of inferiority, do you believe that was what Obama intended/showed when he bowed to the Saudi King?
 
2012-03-25 12:11:00 PM
Yeah, but the story left out that the Queen showed up to claim her right of 'Prima Nocte.' Poor groom.
 
2012-03-25 12:26:06 PM

KiplingKat872: Ace of Swords: KiplingKat872: DeadMouseTails: borg: Shadow Blasko: gadian: What is appropriate decorum when an American woman meets the Queen? I'd be tempted to try and curtsy, but I'm guessing that's a no no.

A curtsy is appropriate. For men, a bow, from the neck only.

If you were to engage her in conversation, when greeting, address her as Your Majesty initially, and after that... simply ma'am is sufficient.

American woman do not need to the queen. The queen knows this and does not expect it from Americans.

She may not expect it, but wouldn't it be considered respectful? I mean, she may not be our Queen, but she is royalty.

We had a bit of a violent discusion that included not expressing fealty to the monarch of England anymore in the 18th century.

That is what a bow/curtsy is: an expression of fealty.

A bow/curtesy is not and never was an expression of fealty. Otherwise monarchs wouldn't let their subjects bow/curtsey to foreign monarchs, which has never been the case.

All the histories I am looking up say the bow/curtsy is a gesture of inferiority. And what do you think a bow is but exposing your neck, putting yourself in a completely vulnerable, position to a ruler?


Have you ever heard the expression "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?" Well, if I was visiting England, and happened to find myself invited to an event that a member of the BRF was attending, when they passed me, I'd curtsy. Why? Because that's the polite thing to do. It's also what everyone else there would be doing, and I wouldn't want to look like the ugly American who has no manners, thus contributing to the overall impression people have my country and the people who live in it.

Another good example would be my boyfriend and I's good friend Patrick. He's from Sydney. He comes to visit a few times a year, and one time we took him to a hockey game, as he'd never been to an NHL match before. When our national anthem started playing, he stood up along with everyone else, did the hand-over-the-heart thing, and though he didn't know all the words, followed along as best he could. Why? He'd look like a dick just sitting there. It's not his national anthem (though Advance, Australia Fair is waaaaaaaay better than ours), it's not his country, but he did what everyone else was doing not to appear rude or impolite.

When in Rome, you see.
 
2012-03-25 12:26:52 PM

turbidum: KiplingKat872: All the histories I am looking up say the bow/curtsy is a gesture of inferiority. And what do you think a bow is but exposing your neck, putting yourself in a completely vulnerable, position to a ruler?

Okay, maybe back then, but in the modern age it's a sign of respect. Bows are not unique to one culture.

You're also backtracking from your assertion of it being a gesture of fealty. Now you're saying it's a gesture of inferiority. Which is it?

Also, if you're saying it's a gesture of inferiority, do you believe that was what Obama intended/showed when he bowed to the Saudi King?


Same thing in this context. Physical gestures of fealty come from the fuedal system in which vassals publically demonstrated that they were inferior to/ruled by the monarch. They would kneel/bow, gesturing that they submitted themselves to the monarch's will, and then the King would allow them to rise and give them the kiss of peace which was a gesture that he would not harm them.
 
2012-03-25 12:31:50 PM

Coco LaFemme: KiplingKat872: Ace of Swords: KiplingKat872: DeadMouseTails: borg: Shadow Blasko: gadian: What is appropriate decorum when an American woman meets the Queen? I'd be tempted to try and curtsy, but I'm guessing that's a no no.

A curtsy is appropriate. For men, a bow, from the neck only.

If you were to engage her in conversation, when greeting, address her as Your Majesty initially, and after that... simply ma'am is sufficient.

American woman do not need to the queen. The queen knows this and does not expect it from Americans.

She may not expect it, but wouldn't it be considered respectful? I mean, she may not be our Queen, but she is royalty.

We had a bit of a violent discusion that included not expressing fealty to the monarch of England anymore in the 18th century.

That is what a bow/curtsy is: an expression of fealty.

A bow/curtesy is not and never was an expression of fealty. Otherwise monarchs wouldn't let their subjects bow/curtsey to foreign monarchs, which has never been the case.

All the histories I am looking up say the bow/curtsy is a gesture of inferiority. And what do you think a bow is but exposing your neck, putting yourself in a completely vulnerable, position to a ruler?

Have you ever heard the expression "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?" Well, if I was visiting England, and happened to find myself invited to an event that a member of the BRF was attending, when they passed me, I'd curtsy. Why? Because that's the polite thing to do. It's also what everyone else there would be doing, and I wouldn't want to look like the ugly American who has no manners, thus contributing to the overall impression people have my country and the people who live in it.

Another good example would be my boyfriend and I's good friend Patrick. He's from Sydney. He comes to visit a few times a year, and one time we took him to a hockey game, as he'd never been to an NHL match before. When our national anthem started playing, he stood up along with everyone else, did the hand-over-the-heart thing, and though he didn't know all the words, followed along as best he could. Why? He'd look like a dick just sitting there. It's not his national anthem (though Advance, Australia Fair is waaaaaaaay better than ours), it's not his country, but he did what everyone else was doing not to appear rude or impolite.

When in Rome, you see.


So why don't you just move there and become a British subject?

It is entirely possible to be courteous to a monarch without pretending to be British. Use their formal address ("Your Majesty...") and shake their hand, following their lead as you would the President.

But I find Americans who are basically pretending to be British around the Royals to be silly at best.
 
2012-03-25 12:36:16 PM

Coco LaFemme: KiplingKat872: Ace of Swords: KiplingKat872: DeadMouseTails: borg: Shadow Blasko: gadian: What is appropriate decorum when an American woman meets the Queen? I'd be tempted to try and curtsy, but I'm guessing that's a no no.

A curtsy is appropriate. For men, a bow, from the neck only.

If you were to engage her in conversation, when greeting, address her as Your Majesty initially, and after that... simply ma'am is sufficient.

American woman do not need to the queen. The queen knows this and does not expect it from Americans.

She may not expect it, but wouldn't it be considered respectful? I mean, she may not be our Queen, but she is royalty.

We had a bit of a violent discusion that included not expressing fealty to the monarch of England anymore in the 18th century.

That is what a bow/curtsy is: an expression of fealty.

A bow/curtesy is not and never was an expression of fealty. Otherwise monarchs wouldn't let their subjects bow/curtsey to foreign monarchs, which has never been the case.

All the histories I am looking up say the bow/curtsy is a gesture of inferiority. And what do you think a bow is but exposing your neck, putting yourself in a completely vulnerable, position to a ruler?

Have you ever heard the expression "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?" Well, if I was visiting England, and happened to find myself invited to an event that a member of the BRF was attending, when they passed me, I'd curtsy. Why? Because that's the polite thing to do. It's also what everyone else there would be doing, and I wouldn't want to look like the ugly American who has no manners, thus contributing to the overall impression people have my country and the people who live in it.

Another good example would be my boyfriend and I's good friend Patrick. He's from Sydney. He comes to visit a few times a year, and one time we took him to a hockey game, as he'd never been to an NHL match before. When our national anthem started playing, he stood up along with everyone else, did the hand-over-the-heart thing, and though he didn't know all the words, followed along as best he could. Why? He'd look like a dick just sitting there. It's not his national anthem (though Advance, Australia Fair is waaaaaaaay better than ours), it's not his country, but he did what everyone else was doing not to appear rude or impolite.

When in Rome, you see.


Oh, and your BF is just as silly for forsaking his nationality out of wanting to fit in.

Moo.

It is respectful to stand during other countries' national athems. Beyond that, you're making a weird statement that your natuonality depends on the company you are in.
 
2012-03-25 12:38:08 PM
Sorry, your friend Patrick. Either way, he went overboard.
 
2012-03-25 12:39:49 PM

KiplingKat872: So why don't you just move there and become a British subject?


That is about as retarded as you can get.

I stand for your national anthem.
I use two hands to hand my business card to japanese clients.
I keep my mouth shut when Im in a church.

It is polite.

// Do Americans REALLY believe brits are subject to the crown in any meaningful way ?
/ I felt WAY more subjugated by US corporations when I had the misfortune of living in America.
 
2012-03-25 12:47:44 PM

KiplingKat872: turbidum: KiplingKat872: All the histories I am looking up say the bow/curtsy is a gesture of inferiority. And what do you think a bow is but exposing your neck, putting yourself in a completely vulnerable, position to a ruler?

Okay, maybe back then, but in the modern age it's a sign of respect. Bows are not unique to one culture.

You're also backtracking from your assertion of it being a gesture of fealty. Now you're saying it's a gesture of inferiority. Which is it?

Also, if you're saying it's a gesture of inferiority, do you believe that was what Obama intended/showed when he bowed to the Saudi King?

Same thing in this context. Physical gestures of fealty come from the fuedal system in which vassals publically demonstrated that they were inferior to/ruled by the monarch. They would kneel/bow, gesturing that they submitted themselves to the monarch's will, and then the King would allow them to rise and give them the kiss of peace which was a gesture that he would not harm them.


From wikipedia:

In Taiwan, China, and Vietnam, shaking hands or a slight bow have become more popular than a full bow. However, bowing is not reserved only for greetings. Bowing is a gesture of respect. Different bows are used for apologies and gratitude, to express different emotions, humility, sincerity, remorse, or deference, and in various traditional arts and religious ceremonies. Bowing has been a way to show respect to people for a long time in East Asia.

. . .

Bows also replace speaking under certain circumstances. For example, when encountering again a person to whom one has already spoken that day, a silent bow replaces such phrases as "hello" or "hi."


Please let everyone in East Asia know that since their customs developed from feudalism, they are outdated.

/things develop over time, dude. you somehow seem to think we live in a syncretistic time bubble.
 
2012-03-25 12:50:34 PM

Slartibartfaster:
// Do Americans REALLY believe brits are subject to the crown in any meaningful way ?


Yep, a lot do. Then again, a lot of Americans couldn't tell you what a parliament is other than a cigarette.
 
2012-03-25 12:58:08 PM

Slartibartfaster: KiplingKat872: So why don't you just move there and become a British subject?

That is about as retarded as you can get.

I stand for your national anthem.
I use two hands to hand my business card to japanese clients.
I keep my mouth shut when Im in a church.

It is polite.

// Do Americans REALLY believe brits are subject to the crown in any meaningful way ?
/ I felt WAY more subjugated by US corporations when I had the misfortune of living in America.


But we are not talking about Asia, are we.

Though a figurehead she is still the head of your government, your national anthem is not "God Save England," it's "God Save the Queen." I believe the oath your members of the military make involves the Queen and she is protected by them. And would you really claim to not be her subject to her face?

Politically she has little power, but as the death of Lady Di showed, the Queen and the Royals are an integral part of Britains cultural landscape.
 
2012-03-25 12:59:04 PM
Why don't I move to England? Because I don't want to. Also, I don't fly, and it's a fair distance on a boat. I don't know anyone in England, I have no family there, I have a job here, and I doubt my boyfriend would want to relocate to the other side of the Atlantic. I have plenty of reasons for not wanting to move to England. I also don't think dropping a curtsy to the Queen, should I have the good fortune to meet her, is equivalent to "pretending to be British." Pretending to be British would be whatever the fark Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow are doing. Curtsying for half a second and saying "Your Majesty" is showing respect to someone's position, the same as shaking Obama's hand and saying "Mr. President" does as well.

You need to lighten up. You're taking this shiat way too seriously.
 
2012-03-25 12:59:23 PM

turbidum: KiplingKat872: turbidum: KiplingKat872: All the histories I am looking up say the bow/curtsy is a gesture of inferiority. And what do you think a bow is but exposing your neck, putting yourself in a completely vulnerable, position to a ruler?

Okay, maybe back then, but in the modern age it's a sign of respect. Bows are not unique to one culture.

You're also backtracking from your assertion of it being a gesture of fealty. Now you're saying it's a gesture of inferiority. Which is it?

Also, if you're saying it's a gesture of inferiority, do you believe that was what Obama intended/showed when he bowed to the Saudi King?

Same thing in this context. Physical gestures of fealty come from the fuedal system in which vassals publically demonstrated that they were inferior to/ruled by the monarch. They would kneel/bow, gesturing that they submitted themselves to the monarch's will, and then the King would allow them to rise and give them the kiss of peace which was a gesture that he would not harm them.

From wikipedia:

In Taiwan, China, and Vietnam, shaking hands or a slight bow have become more popular than a full bow. However, bowing is not reserved only for greetings. Bowing is a gesture of respect. Different bows are used for apologies and gratitude, to express different emotions, humility, sincerity, remorse, or deference, and in various traditional arts and religious ceremonies. Bowing has been a way to show respect to people for a long time in East Asia.

. . .

Bows also replace speaking under certain circumstances. For example, when encountering again a person to whom one has already spoken that day, a silent bow replaces such phrases as "hello" or "hi."


Please let everyone in East Asia know that since their customs developed from feudalism, they are outdated.

/things develop over time, dude. you somehow seem to think we live in a syncretistic time bubble.


Again, we are not talking about Asia.

But keep moving those goalposts.
 
2012-03-25 01:04:43 PM

Coco LaFemme: Why don't I move to England? Because I don't want to. Also, I don't fly, and it's a fair distance on a boat. I don't know anyone in England, I have no family there, I have a job here, and I doubt my boyfriend would want to relocate to the other side of the Atlantic. I have plenty of reasons for not wanting to move to England. I also don't think dropping a curtsy to the Queen, should I have the good fortune to meet her, is equivalent to "pretending to be British." Pretending to be British would be whatever the fark Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow are doing. Curtsying for half a second and saying "Your Majesty" is showing respect to someone's position, the same as shaking Obama's hand and saying "Mr. President" does as well.

You need to lighten up. You're taking this shiat way too seriously.


My family has been here since 1635, and yes I know which ancestors fought and which died to make me an American as my mothers family has been Army ever since then.

I'm an American. No hyphen, no conditional. American.

So yeah. I take it seriously, and my family would be pretty irked if they watched me drop a curtsy to the monarch of another nation.

I can be polite without giving up my American identity.
 
2012-03-25 01:07:13 PM

Slartibartfaster: KiplingKat872: So why don't you just move there and become a British subject?

That is about as retarded as you can get.

I stand for your national anthem.
I use two hands to hand my business card to japanese clients.
I keep my mouth shut when Im in a church.

It is polite.

// Do Americans REALLY believe brits are subject to the crown in any meaningful way ?
/ I felt WAY more subjugated by US corporations when I had the misfortune of living in America.


And BTW, slight dishonesty there when you know coporations shape your political landscape almost as much as ours
 
2012-03-25 01:08:37 PM

Slartibartfaster: KiplingKat872: So why don't you just move there and become a British subject?

That is about as retarded as you can get.

I stand for your national anthem.
I use two hands to hand my business card to japanese clients.
I keep my mouth shut when Im in a church.

It is polite.

// Do Americans REALLY believe brits are subject to the crown in any meaningful way ?
/ I felt WAY more subjugated by US corporations when I had the misfortune of living in America.


In fact, you all kind of created that political monkey on our backs.

East India Tea Company anyone?
 
2012-03-25 01:14:46 PM

KiplingKat872: Again, we are not talking about Asia.

But keep moving those goalposts.


I started with my goalposts firmly in the "we are a global culture" zone.
 
2012-03-25 01:15:20 PM
Look, if an American wants to bow/cursty (bob) to the Monarch of the U.K. that's their choice. But even according to the official etiquette posted, it is not required/expected and yeah some Americans are going to look at you a little funny when you do.
 
2012-03-25 01:15:54 PM

Coco LaFemme: Why don't I move to England? Because I don't want to. Also, I don't fly, and it's a fair distance on a boat. I don't know anyone in England, I have no family there, I have a job here, and I doubt my boyfriend would want to relocate to the other side of the Atlantic. I have plenty of reasons for not wanting to move to England. I also don't think dropping a curtsy to the Queen, should I have the good fortune to meet her, is equivalent to "pretending to be British." Pretending to be British would be whatever the fark Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow are doing. Curtsying for half a second and saying "Your Majesty" is showing respect to someone's position, the same as shaking Obama's hand and saying "Mr. President" does as well.

You need to lighten up. You're taking this shiat way too seriously.


If I ever meet the president, I'll call him Mr. President, because he earned the title. I suspect that if I ever meet royalty in a formal situation (which is even less likely than meeting the president of the US) I'll use something to the effect of Your Majesty, or whatever it look like is the right thing. It's formal manners, and while I don't really have any, I can still try to fake it.

I will not bow unless the other person is going to bow the same to me. Whatever someone else might believe, I am their equal. We both were born crying into mess and blood. We both eat and shiat. We'll both die. It's not being anti-royalty for me, it's being for humanity. For me, bowing is where I draw the line, and I don't a real good reason for it, but there it is.

/Actually, I wasn't born crying, but that's because I apparently wasn't breathing.
 
2012-03-25 01:18:51 PM

KiplingKat872: Look, if an American wants to bow/cursty (bob) to the Monarch of the U.K. that's their choice. But even according to the official etiquette posted, it is not required/expected and yeah some Americans are going to look at you a little funny when you do.


That's a much more reasoned, rational response than whatever you were posting before.
 
2012-03-25 01:19:24 PM

turbidum: KiplingKat872: Again, we are not talking about Asia.

But keep moving those goalposts.

I started with my goalposts firmly in the "we are a global culture" zone.


Well, as an athropology major, and someone who has traveled, I can tell you that the idea that we are a single monolithic global culture and that all gestures mean the same things in Asia and Europe is a complete load of shiat.

I mean in a "Holy Fark, did you really just say that" level of shiat.
 
2012-03-25 01:22:31 PM

I May Be Crazy But...: Coco LaFemme: Why don't I move to England? Because I don't want to. Also, I don't fly, and it's a fair distance on a boat. I don't know anyone in England, I have no family there, I have a job here, and I doubt my boyfriend would want to relocate to the other side of the Atlantic. I have plenty of reasons for not wanting to move to England. I also don't think dropping a curtsy to the Queen, should I have the good fortune to meet her, is equivalent to "pretending to be British." Pretending to be British would be whatever the fark Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow are doing. Curtsying for half a second and saying "Your Majesty" is showing respect to someone's position, the same as shaking Obama's hand and saying "Mr. President" does as well.

You need to lighten up. You're taking this shiat way too seriously.

If I ever meet the president, I'll call him Mr. President, because he earned the title. I suspect that if I ever meet royalty in a formal situation (which is even less likely than meeting the president of the US) I'll use something to the effect of Your Majesty, or whatever it look like is the right thing. It's formal manners, and while I don't really have any, I can still try to fake it.

I will not bow unless the other person is going to bow the same to me. Whatever someone else might believe, I am their equal. We both were born crying into mess and blood. We both eat and shiat. We'll both die. It's not being anti-royalty for me, it's being for humanity. For me, bowing is where I draw the line, and I don't a real good reason for it, but there it is.

/Actually, I wasn't born crying, but that's because I apparently wasn't breathing.


Well said.
 
2012-03-25 01:29:16 PM

KiplingKat872: Coco LaFemme: Why don't I move to England? Because I don't want to. Also, I don't fly, and it's a fair distance on a boat. I don't know anyone in England, I have no family there, I have a job here, and I doubt my boyfriend would want to relocate to the other side of the Atlantic. I have plenty of reasons for not wanting to move to England. I also don't think dropping a curtsy to the Queen, should I have the good fortune to meet her, is equivalent to "pretending to be British." Pretending to be British would be whatever the fark Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow are doing. Curtsying for half a second and saying "Your Majesty" is showing respect to someone's position, the same as shaking Obama's hand and saying "Mr. President" does as well.

You need to lighten up. You're taking this shiat way too seriously.

My family has been here since 1635, and yes I know which ancestors fought and which died to make me an American as my mothers family has been Army ever since then.

I'm an American. No hyphen, no conditional. American.

So yeah. I take it seriously, and my family would be pretty irked if they watched me drop a curtsy to the monarch of another nation.

I can be polite without giving up my American identity.


"Sir, The United States of America have appointed me their Minister Plenipotentiary to your Majesty . . . It is in Obedience to their express Commands that I have the Honor to assure your Majesty of their unanimous Disposition and Desire to cultivate the most friendly and liberal Intercourse between your Majesty's Subjects and their Citizens . . . The appointment of a Minister from the United States to your Majesty's Court, will form an Epocha in the History of England & of America. I think myself more fortunate than all my fellow Citizens in having the distinguished Honor to be the first to stand in your Majesty's royal Presence in a diplomatic Character . . ."

- John Adams, on meeting with King George III, June 2, 1785. Before saying this he bowed three times.

With all due respect to your super-american family, not bowing is more shameful to our legacy.
 
2012-03-25 01:30:52 PM
Did Brian May and Roger Taylor crash the reception and join the band?
 
2012-03-25 01:31:57 PM

KiplingKat872: turbidum: KiplingKat872: Again, we are not talking about Asia.

But keep moving those goalposts.

I started with my goalposts firmly in the "we are a global culture" zone.

Well, as an athropology major, and someone who has traveled, I can tell you that the idea that we are a single monolithic global culture and that all gestures mean the same things in Asia and Europe is a complete load of shiat.

I mean in a "Holy Fark, did you really just say that" level of shiat.


Did I ever say our global culture is monolithic? No.

Do we have an increasingly global culture compared to 30 years ago? Yes.
 
2012-03-25 01:35:09 PM

KiplingKat872: turbidum: KiplingKat872: Again, we are not talking about Asia.

But keep moving those goalposts.

I started with my goalposts firmly in the "we are a global culture" zone.

Well, as an athropology major, and someone who has traveled, I can tell you that the idea that we are a single monolithic global culture and that all gestures mean the same things in Asia and Europe is a complete load of shiat.

I mean in a "Holy Fark, did you really just say that" level of shiat.


Also, you must have been a pretty shiatty anthropology major if you don't think that their are commonalities across cultures. No one is being so reductive as to say a bow means the same in every context, but no one except you is saying that the meaning of a gesture is inextricably bound by context (tied to, yes, but not bound).
 
2012-03-25 01:41:53 PM

Darth Macho: KiplingKat872: Coco LaFemme: Why don't I move to England? Because I don't want to. Also, I don't fly, and it's a fair distance on a boat. I don't know anyone in England, I have no family there, I have a job here, and I doubt my boyfriend would want to relocate to the other side of the Atlantic. I have plenty of reasons for not wanting to move to England. I also don't think dropping a curtsy to the Queen, should I have the good fortune to meet her, is equivalent to "pretending to be British." Pretending to be British would be whatever the fark Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow are doing. Curtsying for half a second and saying "Your Majesty" is showing respect to someone's position, the same as shaking Obama's hand and saying "Mr. President" does as well.

You need to lighten up. You're taking this shiat way too seriously.

My family has been here since 1635, and yes I know which ancestors fought and which died to make me an American as my mothers family has been Army ever since then.

I'm an American. No hyphen, no conditional. American.

So yeah. I take it seriously, and my family would be pretty irked if they watched me drop a curtsy to the monarch of another nation.

I can be polite without giving up my American identity.

"Sir, The United States of America have appointed me their Minister Plenipotentiary to your Majesty . . . It is in Obedience to their express Commands that I have the Honor to assure your Majesty of their unanimous Disposition and Desire to cultivate the most friendly and liberal Intercourse between your Majesty's Subjects and their Citizens . . . The appointment of a Minister from the United States to your Majesty's Court, will form an Epocha in the History of England & of America. I think myself more fortunate than all my fellow Citizens in having the distinguished Honor to be the first to stand in your Majesty's royal Presence in a diplomatic Character . . ."

- John Adams, on meeting with King George III, June 2, 1785. Before saying this he bowed three times.

With all due respect to your super-american family, not bowing is more shameful to our legacy.


B.S. One founding father kissing arse because he knew Britian still had the might to waltz over and take the country back if they could just get their shiat together.

One out off all the presidents we have had that have met monarchs without bowing, meeting them as equals.

I would like it if my nation were more subject you the U.N. and international law, but not the ruler if another nation.

Or do you like the idea of the President of the U.S. acting subservient to the monarch of another nation.
 
2012-03-25 01:46:28 PM

turbidum: KiplingKat872: turbidum: KiplingKat872: Again, we are not talking about Asia.

But keep moving those goalposts.

I started with my goalposts firmly in the "we are a global culture" zone.

Well, as an athropology major, and someone who has traveled, I can tell you that the idea that we are a single monolithic global culture and that all gestures mean the same things in Asia and Europe is a complete load of shiat.

I mean in a "Holy Fark, did you really just say that" level of shiat.

Also, you must have been a pretty shiatty anthropology major if you don't think that their are commonalities across cultures. No one is being so reductive as to say a bow means the same in every context, but no one except you is saying that the meaning of a gesture is inextricably bound by context (tied to, yes, but not bound).


Read my post carefully. "All gedstures mean the same things"

So prove it.

I say that bowing in Europe comes from Fuedalism and gestures of fealty

You say it comes from the same thing Asia *now*: respect.

Go look up the history of bowing and etiquette in Asia.
 
2012-03-25 01:48:23 PM

KiplingKat872: B.S. One founding father kissing arse because he knew Britian still had the might to waltz over and take the country back if they could just get their shiat together.

One out off all the presidents we have had that have met monarchs without bowing, meeting them as equals.

I would like it if my nation were more subject you the U.N. and international law, but not the ruler if another nation.

Or do you like the idea of the President of the U.S. acting subservient to the monarch of another nation.


Did... did you just call John Adams a pussy? How the hell did you go from 'My family fought the Redcoats' to 'The Founding Fathers were cowards'?
 
2012-03-25 01:50:01 PM

sendbillmoney: DeadMouseTails: She may not expect it, but wouldn't it be considered respectful? I mean, she may not be our Queen, but she is royalty.

Respectful to her, perhaps, but disrespectful to those who died in order to keep us from having to bow to George III.


I see, so the fact that they've been strong allies of ours for, how many years is it now, at least 50, counts for nothing. I should spit in the woman's face and show no respect to her? We still trying Germans for war crimes than? We had a war, we won our independence, that gives me the right to show respect to someone who hasn't done anything to me to make me disrespect her. She's a head of state, her position dictates a certain amount of courtesy, whether you like it or not. No wonder most of the world dislikes us.
 
2012-03-25 01:51:45 PM

KiplingKat872: Read my post carefully. "All gedstures mean the same things"

So prove it.

I say that bowing in Europe comes from Fuedalism and gestures of fealty

You say it comes from the same thing Asia *now*: respect.

Go look up the history of bowing and etiquette in Asia.


Your assertion seemed to be that because the European bow came from feudalism (please spell it right if you're going to keep on using the word), that that was all it meant. Clearly, bows in Asia come from the same source: feudalism. The point I was making is that it has developed since then and has developed new meanings.

Like I said before, you seem to think we live in a syncretistic time bubble.
 
2012-03-25 01:53:24 PM
Actually, nevermind. I'm not dealing with someone who claims that a gesture means/has the same historical conotations across two continents (and note that bows are exchanged between everyone at all levels of Japanese society, where the British only bow to the Royals who do not have to bow back) because "we live in a global culture" and then sidesteps that by claiming that was not what they meant. I don't have time to deal woth that level of intellectual dishonesty today.
 
2012-03-25 01:59:00 PM

DeadMouseTails: sendbillmoney: DeadMouseTails: She may not expect it, but wouldn't it be considered respectful? I mean, she may not be our Queen, but she is royalty.

Respectful to her, perhaps, but disrespectful to those who died in order to keep us from having to bow to George III.

I see, so the fact that they've been strong allies of ours for, how many years is it now, at least 50, counts for nothing. I should spit in the woman's face and show no respect to her? We still trying Germans for war crimes than? We had a war, we won our independence, that gives me the right to show respect to someone who hasn't done anything to me to make me disrespect her. She's a head of state, her position dictates a certain amount of courtesy, whether you like it or not. No wonder most of the world dislikes us.


It's possible he wasn't suggesting that the right thing to do is crap in your hand and fling it at her like a monkey. Just possible.

I'l admit that I don't see where the hatred for the English is from, but it takes all sorts, I guess.
 
2012-03-25 01:59:16 PM

KiplingKat872: Actually, nevermind. I'm not dealing with someone who claims that a gesture means/has the same historical conotations across two continents (and note that bows are exchanged between everyone at all levels of Japanese society, where the British only bow to the Royals who do not have to bow back) because "we live in a global culture" and then sidesteps that by claiming that was not what they meant. I don't have time to deal woth that level of intellectual dishonesty today.


You're the intellectually dishonest one in this case. I have to run to catch a play, but I was gonna say nice talking with you since I always find discussions backed up by facts and evidence fun (if not frustrating). Instead, you reveal yourself to be a close-minded twat who values no opinions other than his/her own.

Also, the Emperor won't bow to you. Same goddamn shiat a the Queen of England. If that's not a convergent commonality that arose in two separate cultures, I don't know what is.
 
2012-03-25 02:06:22 PM

Darth Macho: KiplingKat872: B.S. One founding father kissing arse because he knew Britian still had the might to waltz over and take the country back if they could just get their shiat together.

One out off all the presidents we have had that have met monarchs without bowing, meeting them as equals.

I would like it if my nation were more subject you the U.N. and international law, but not the ruler if another nation.

Or do you like the idea of the President of the U.S. acting subservient to the monarch of another nation.

Did... did you just call John Adams a pussy? How the hell did you go from 'My family fought the Redcoats' to 'The Founding Fathers were cowards'?


I just told you the historical and political reality of what our fledgling nation was dealing with.

We were sitting on a vast wealth of resouces, on the door step of Britain's Carribean sugar industry which by the time Napoleon steamrolled across Europe was one fifth of the British economy. And we had no Navy to speak of, small army, and weak infresturcture between states that already threatening to seceede.

One of the biggest reasons we won the Revolutionary War was the incompetance of the British Commanders (the guy Parliment actually wanted who had served in the French and Indian War refused), and the disorganized support from the British Government.

Adams knew could happen, and indeed did happen in 1812, if the British got their crap together and made a focused effort to get the colonies back.

Also we were still very dependant on England for trade.
 
2012-03-25 02:09:21 PM

turbidum: KiplingKat872: Actually, nevermind. I'm not dealing with someone who claims that a gesture means/has the same historical conotations across two continents (and note that bows are exchanged between everyone at all levels of Japanese society, where the British only bow to the Royals who do not have to bow back) because "we live in a global culture" and then sidesteps that by claiming that was not what they meant. I don't have time to deal woth that level of intellectual dishonesty today.

You're the intellectually dishonest one in this case. I have to run to catch a play, but I was gonna say nice talking with you since I always find discussions backed up by facts and evidence fun (if not frustrating). Instead, you reveal yourself to be a close-minded twat who values no opinions other than his/her own.

Also, the Emperor won't bow to you. Same goddamn shiat a the Queen of England. If that's not a convergent commonality that arose in two separate cultures, I don't know what is.


Yeah, but you don't bow to any and every British citizen you deal with.

Close minded my arse, I just called you on your clear b.s.
 
2012-03-25 02:13:32 PM

DeadMouseTails: sendbillmoney: DeadMouseTails: She may not expect it, but wouldn't it be considered respectful? I mean, she may not be our Queen, but she is royalty.

Respectful to her, perhaps, but disrespectful to those who died in order to keep us from having to bow to George III.

I see, so the fact that they've been strong allies of ours for, how many years is it now, at least 50, counts for nothing. I should spit in the woman's face and show no respect to her? We still trying Germans for war crimes than? We had a war, we won our independence, that gives me the right to show respect to someone who hasn't done anything to me to make me disrespect her. She's a head of state, her position dictates a certain amount of courtesy, whether you like it or not. No wonder most of the world dislikes us.


Wow, hyperbole much? Who's talking about spitting?

Everyone here has said we will address her by her proper title, but even the official court etiquette says Americans do not have to bow to her because we are not her subjects.

Deal with it.
 
2012-03-25 02:15:03 PM

KiplingKat872: Yeah, but you don't bow to any and every British citizen you deal with.

Close minded my arse, I just called you on your clear b.s.


Did I ever say they were the same thing? No. That was a strawman you created to attack my argument (much in the same way you added "monolithic" into the phrase "global culture").

And yeah, you're close-minded if you call other people intellectually dishonest for disagreeing with you. I made up no facts, did not misconstrue anything you said, and I didn't even resort to ad hominems until you did.

Bad day to you, sir/madam.
 
2012-03-25 02:22:19 PM

KiplingKat872: Adams knew could happen, and indeed did happen in 1812, if the British got their crap together and made a focused effort to get the colonies back.

Also we were still very dependant on England for trade.


Madness. A diplomat bowing to King George because he's afraid a constitutional monarch will send 30,000 troops across the Atlantic to invade a nation of 3 million. After failing the first time. Sure, that makes a lot more sense than a diplomat bowing to a King because it makes the United States look gracious and humble to a former enemy.

Every person is a diplomat when visiting a foreign country. The Queen doesn't sit down when the Star Spangled Banner is playing. Obama bows to the Japanese Emperor. Bush makes out with the Saudi King. If you had any respect for your country you'd see it as an act of patriotism instead of wallowing in pig-ignorant selfishness.
 
2012-03-25 02:24:42 PM

Darth Macho: KiplingKat872: Adams knew could happen, and indeed did happen in 1812, if the British got their crap together and made a focused effort to get the colonies back.

Also we were still very dependant on England for trade.

Madness. A diplomat bowing to King George because he's afraid a constitutional monarch will send 30,000 troops across the Atlantic to invade a nation of 3 million. After failing the first time. Sure, that makes a lot more sense than a diplomat bowing to a King because it makes the United States look gracious and humble to a former enemy.

Every person is a diplomat when visiting a foreign country. The Queen doesn't sit down when the Star Spangled Banner is playing. Obama bows to the Japanese Emperor. Bush makes out with the Saudi King. If you had any respect for your country you'd see it as an act of patriotism instead of wallowing in pig-ignorant selfishness.


Nah, s/he thinks because he studied anthropology s/he can tell the rest of the world how they should act.

You'd think s/he'd notice that no one is agreeing with him/her. Must be lonely being so smart.
 
2012-03-25 02:24:43 PM

turbidum: KiplingKat872: Yeah, but you don't bow to any and every British citizen you deal with.

Close minded my arse, I just called you on your clear b.s.

Did I ever say they were the same thing? No. That was a strawman you created to attack my argument (much in the same way you added "monolithic" into the phrase "global culture").

And yeah, you're close-minded if you call other people intellectually dishonest for disagreeing with you. I made up no facts, did not misconstrue anything you said, and I didn't even resort to ad hominems until you did.

Bad day to you, sir/madam.


Yes you did you dishonest fark. When I poinyed out the eruopean bow's origins in fuedalism, you fired back "please let everyone in East Asia know that since their customs developed from fuedalism they are outdated."

To which I answered, "We aren't talking about Asia. But keep moving those goalposts."

To which you answered, "But we live in a global culture."

If you were not saying that bows in Europe and Asia had the same origins/cultural connotations, your entire argument is a non-sequitur
 
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