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(The Daily Beast)   "ObamaCare" is a tax. You can't sue the government over a tax until you've first paid it. "ObamaCare" doesn't go into effect until 2014. So... welcome your new healthcare overlords   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 383
    More: Interesting, Anti-Injunction Act, obamacare, technicality, Justice Kennedy, home health care, Bush v. Gore, oral arguments, individual liberty  
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4494 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Mar 2012 at 12:45 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-24 09:39:25 AM
so if you don't have insurance, you don't get a tax break. i don't have kids, so i don't get that tax break either. i don't really see the difference here.
 
2012-03-24 09:44:29 AM
Scalia and company don't care. They'll vote to kill the whole thing no matter what the law says.
 
2012-03-24 09:52:51 AM

GAT_00: Scalia and company don't care. They'll vote to kill the whole thing no matter what the law says.


kennedy might not vote with scalito and thomas. plus, roberts is already in the doghouse for citizens united. he might not want to be seen as a tool of the GOP.
 
2012-03-24 10:02:59 AM
if they rule the mandate unconstitutional then why pay medicare taxes either right?
 
2012-03-24 10:03:22 AM

FlashHarry: he might not want to be seen as a tool of the GOP.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

If that's what he cares about, he's utterly failed.
 
2012-03-24 10:08:19 AM

Hobodeluxe: if they rule the mandate unconstitutional then why pay medicare taxes either right?


If the mandate is ruled unconstitutional, everyone without insurance will be put into the Medicare program.
 
2012-03-24 10:26:28 AM

puffy999: everyone without insurance will be put into the Medicare program.


they should have done it this way anyway. simply remove the "over 65" part of the law. the infrastructure is already there.
 
2012-03-24 10:57:16 AM

FlashHarry: puffy999: everyone without insurance will be put into the Medicare program.

they should have done it this way anyway. simply remove the "over 65" part of the law. the infrastructure is already there.


Exactly. Think of all the expense and administrative overhead involved in creating *yet another* health care system. But that would have been socialist, of course, so you can't have that.
 
2012-03-24 11:39:16 AM

Hobodeluxe: if they rule the mandate unconstitutional then why pay medicare taxes either right?


Medicare is paid for with an income tax, something explicitly authorized by the 16th amendment.
 
2012-03-24 11:51:25 AM
Why do we need health care? We have NyQuil and DayQuil. What more do we need?
 
2012-03-24 12:28:24 PM
You can't sue the government over a tax until you've first paid it.

This is actually true. In most situations, you have to settle your payment with the IRS and then sue them for reimbursement.

However, you can sue in U.S. Tax Court without settling first.
 
2012-03-24 12:28:52 PM

GAT_00: Scalia and company don't care. They'll vote to kill the whole thing no matter what the law says.


I'm surprised you didn't list Thomas first. He's been in the GOP pocket since confirmation.
 
2012-03-24 12:30:23 PM

AirForceVet: GAT_00: Scalia and company don't care. They'll vote to kill the whole thing no matter what the law says.

I'm surprised you didn't list Thomas first. He's been in the GOP pocket since confirmation.


Scalia is the one who actually takes bribes though.
 
2012-03-24 12:36:35 PM

GAT_00: Scalia is the one who actually takes bribes though.


Doesn't Thomas get 3/5ths?
 
2012-03-24 12:42:13 PM
In case anybody is curious how the HCRA personally benefits you, you can take a look at the new HCR app that the Obama team whipped up. Pretty informative.

Link (new window)
 
2012-03-24 12:47:02 PM

Lando Lincoln: In case anybody is curious how the HCRA personally benefits you, you can take a look at the new HCR app that the Obama team whipped up. Pretty informative.

Link (new window)


it actually hurts me.... but that is because our plans are Cadillac plans they're going to scale back to get just under the edge... if they increase our base compensation to make up for it that is fine with me.

i mean our plans are ridiculous - no copay on ANYTHING, no out of pocket on meds, etc. i can see them getting it under the line quickly via small copays.
 
2012-03-24 12:51:22 PM

GAT_00: AirForceVet: GAT_00: Scalia and company don't care. They'll vote to kill the whole thing no matter what the law says.

I'm surprised you didn't list Thomas first. He's been in the GOP pocket since confirmation.

Scalia is the one who actually takes bribes though.


Thomas doesn't get exactly an integrity rebate for having his wife do that.
 
2012-03-24 12:51:45 PM
Dayum. I gotta pay fer my trips to the ER now? Its gonna cost me the same as a 6 year note on a new Dodge Ram quad cab I was gonna git
 
2012-03-24 12:54:26 PM
The curious thing is, this "magic bullet" that appears to solve the entire argument over mandates has only been found after three years of debate on the matter.
 
2012-03-24 12:54:33 PM

Jacobin: Dayum. I gotta pay fer my trips to the ER now? Its gonna cost me the same as a 6 year note on a new Dodge Ram quad cab I was gonna git


HA! There is a very long thread on one of NECKAR boards about how difficult it is to renew ones drivers license these days in PostAcorn Red State America.
 
2012-03-24 12:55:09 PM
If the Supremes decide the federal government can't force me to pay a tax for health care I guess that means they can't draft my ass either.
 
2012-03-24 12:55:28 PM
Get the government out of my Jonsoncare and keep them away from my Roosevelt-Security benefits.
 
2012-03-24 12:55:35 PM
Next thing you know, Congress will be requiring us to go to the gym, drive American-made cars, or even-gasp!-eat broccoli


There was a time when I would have laughed that off as impossible hyperbole. That was before they outlawed trans-fats, made it illegal to smoke in your own car, outlawed fast food restaurants, and so forth.

The world of Demolition Man is slowly coming true. I might have to join the burger-eating outlaws in the underground.
 
2012-03-24 01:00:59 PM
GOP thinking:
Government makes laws prevent us from buying stuff (ie drugs)=GOOD
Government makes law making us buy things=BAD

In my option they are that same thing, if the Government has the right to tell you want you can't buy then it would also have the right to tell you what you can buy. Not saying it's a good thing, it's not, but the GOP is being a bit hypocritical in their thinking once again. This is the reason why RON PAUL seems pro-drugs, he not, he just knows that the Federal Government shouldn't be able to regulate what you can and can't buy.

/feels a little dirty agreeing with RON PAUL.
//off to take a bath.
 
2012-03-24 01:01:18 PM

NewportBarGuy: Why do we need health care? We have NyQuil and DayQuil.


And for everything else, you can just go the emergency room!
 
2012-03-24 01:01:42 PM

GAT_00: FlashHarry: he might not want to be seen as a tool of the GOP.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

If that's what he cares about, he's utterly failed.


BushCo. basically found the most conservative lawyers and politicians they could come up with, and asked them who they felt was too conservative to hang out with them. Everyone pointed at Roberts.
 
2012-03-24 01:03:05 PM
They would have been wise not to hear the case at all. Either way they rule it will erode credibility of the court.
 
2012-03-24 01:03:10 PM

salvador.hardin: Get the government out of my Jonsoncare and keep them away from my Roosevelt-Security benefits.


I see what you're doing there, and approve.
 
2012-03-24 01:03:19 PM

GilRuiz1: That was before they outlawed trans-fats, made it illegal to smoke in your own car, outlawed fast food restaurants, and so forth.


On the bright side, it did lead to a pretty funny South Park episode.
 
2012-03-24 01:04:36 PM

MFAWG: Jacobin: Dayum. I gotta pay fer my trips to the ER now? Its gonna cost me the same as a 6 year note on a new Dodge Ram quad cab I was gonna git

HA! There is a very long thread on one of NECKAR boards about how difficult it is to renew ones drivers license these days in PostAcorn Red State America.


The ironic thing being that these regs are in place because of the right-wing ant-immigrant crap, not because of ACORN "voter fraud" or whatever that bullshiat was
 
2012-03-24 01:05:27 PM
So we all agree that Obama's plan to make sure every American has some kind of health care plan (granted, ensuring that private companies get the profitable customers and the government covers everyone else) makes him a moral monster on the level of Mao? The biggest problem in America is that everyone might have health care and we might spread the costs among the middle and upper class?

Obamacare = Great Leap Forward 2
 
2012-03-24 01:07:00 PM
cool if it's a tax then it's constitutional - game over.
 
2012-03-24 01:07:44 PM

Shostie: You can't sue the government over a tax until you've first paid it.

This is actually true. In most situations, you have to settle your payment with the IRS and then sue them for reimbursement.

However, you can sue in U.S. Tax Court without settling first.


Ah, that makes sense. I was wondering about that, since "just pay it first" isn't exactly going to work if an error were to cause you to be overtaxed by a completely ridiculous amount.
 
2012-03-24 01:07:56 PM
So this decision potentially makes the whole "The first thing I'll do is repeal 'Obamacare'" stump speech talking point all the remaining GOP candidates are spouting a non starter?

Oh my, this really *is* getting lulzy, isn't it? ^__^
 
2012-03-24 01:07:59 PM

FlameDuck: They would have been wise not to hear the case at all. Either way they rule it will erode credibility of the court.


and leave seperate courts with different rulings?
 
2012-03-24 01:09:58 PM

Corvus: cool if it's a tax then it's constitutional - game over.


Well, not quite.

Its implementation is constitutional. After that, it can be hashed out in the courts, but not until, per the article, anyway.
 
2012-03-24 01:10:43 PM

FlameDuck: They would have been wise not to hear the case at all. Either way they rule it will erode credibility of the court.


It can't erode much further. It's already little more than one more party-line headcount as it is.
 
2012-03-24 01:10:49 PM

FlameDuck: They would have been wise not to hear the case at all. Either way they rule it will erode credibility of the court.


I think I see your point. However, it seems that hearing the case and then affirming the law would do more to increase its credibility and legitimacy than declining to hear it.

For example, if SCOTUS had declined to hear Bush v. Gore, we'd probably still be fighting about who won in 2000. Because they made a ruling, even one that many people disagreed with, we were able to move on as a country. Those who supported Gore, for the most part, realized that their position was futile and accepted Bush's presidency.

This is the difference here in the Obama presidency: his legitimacy as CIC of the Armed Forces has not been established by SCOTUS (I'm not saying it should be, no one elses other than Bush's was), so therefore many people believe that the issue is still up for debate.
 
2012-03-24 01:11:08 PM

FlashHarry: so if you don't have insurance, you don't get a tax break. i don't have kids, so i don't get that tax break either. i don't really see the difference here.


Wait, now insurance qualifies you for a tax break? I understood there was a penalty for not having insurance, but if you are right...it's not even technically a mandate anymore. I would now have nothing to complain about.
 
2012-03-24 01:11:19 PM
The thing that gets me is that I understand that the GOP wants to appeal Obamacare. But then what's the next step.

Prices aren't going to magically go down, more people aren't going to get magically covered. Does the GOP actually have a plan once they repeal Obamacare or will they just stick their thumbs up their ass and pretend the problem will just go away?

/thinks he already knows the answer...
 
2012-03-24 01:11:47 PM
Long ago the Supreme Court decided the Commerce Clause lets the government do almost anything. I would be very surprised if the court ruled against the government here.
 
2012-03-24 01:12:06 PM

quatchi: So this decision potentially makes the whole "The first thing I'll do is repeal 'Obamacare'" stump speech talking point all the remaining GOP candidates are spouting a non starter?

Oh my, this really *is* getting lulzy, isn't it? ^__^


Yup.
 
2012-03-24 01:13:02 PM
Don't worry, this will only kick the can down the road to 2015, where President Etch-a-Sketch will be in the strange position of arguing that the law is unconstitutional even though he once championed its precepts.
 
2012-03-24 01:13:07 PM
Does anyone know the practical reason they set such a huge lag-time for the bill's provisions to go into effect? 2014!? It seems like Obamacaremas will never get here!
 
2012-03-24 01:13:58 PM

ox45tallboy: MFAWG: Jacobin: Dayum. I gotta pay fer my trips to the ER now? Its gonna cost me the same as a 6 year note on a new Dodge Ram quad cab I was gonna git

HA! There is a very long thread on one of NECKAR boards about how difficult it is to renew ones drivers license these days in PostAcorn Red State America.

The ironic thing being that these regs are in place because of the right-wing ant-immigrant crap, not because of ACORN "voter fraud" or whatever that bullshiat was


Exactly. There seems to be a feeling that White Christian Real Americans should be able to waltz into the DMV, say 'My name is Joe Blow' and BAM! get a license.

There's a fair amount of 'Well, this is how you wanted it, DUMBASS' going on, but still.
 
2012-03-24 01:13:59 PM

GilRuiz1: Next thing you know, Congress will be requiring us to go to the gym, drive American-made cars, or even-gasp!-eat broccoli


There was a time when I would have laughed that off as impossible hyperbole. That was before they outlawed trans-fats, made it illegal to smoke in your own car, outlawed fast food restaurants, and so forth.

The world of Demolition Man is slowly coming true. I might have to join the burger-eating outlaws in the underground.


Those are state and municipal-level laws. Finding crazy laws there is just routine.
 
2012-03-24 01:14:00 PM

puffy999: Hobodeluxe: if they rule the mandate unconstitutional then why pay medicare taxes either right?

If the mandate is ruled unconstitutional, everyone without insurance will be put into the Medicare program.


But wouldn't the ruling also invalidate Medicare, which is a universal federal tax?
 
2012-03-24 01:15:09 PM

Edsel: Don't worry, this will only kick the can down the road to 2015, where President Etch-a-Sketch will be in the strange position of arguing that the law is unconstitutional even though he once championed its precepts.


I don't see as he'd have a problem doing that.
 
2012-03-24 01:15:43 PM
"Not a Tax" Comes Back to Haunt Obamacare

President Obama had promised that he would not raise taxes on Americans earning under $250,000. When asked whether the penalty attached to the individual mandate was a tax, President Obama said it was "absolutely not a tax." He also said "[n]obody considers [it] a tax increase." Nevertheless, in an attempt to prevent the court from ruling on the constitutionality of the individual mandate, the Obama Justice Department argued that the penalty was in fact a tax. The Justice Department argument failed because the individual mandate provision was written in a way clearly to avoid using the word "tax."

The language of the bill and the legislative process demonstrated that Congress chose to make the payment for failure to have health insurance a penalty, and not a tax. Early drafts of the bill had referred to the payment to be assessed as a tax. The fact that the word "tax" was dropped from the final version was very significant.


/Constitutionally speaking, I actually think Obama's "not a tax" statement is irrelevant.
//The removal of the word "tax" during the legislative process? Pretty relevant.
 
2012-03-24 01:17:50 PM
I hate the fact that nationalized health care has become a partisan battle. Medical care should be a basic human right, along with food, medicine etc.

Even if you are not looking at it from a humanity perspective, letting a citizen be destroyed because they can not pay for health care removes that citizen from the ability to continue to pay taxes.

I will use myself as an example, I am halfway through my career. I have paid roughly 300k in taxes over the last 25 years. If I get laid off for a significant amount of time and then have a major medical issue, it would pretty much would ruin me. If lack of quality care costs my life, it is stripping the future taxes I would have paid from the government.

I can not purchase medical insurance on my own, I am a type 1 diabetic.

You are telling me that we needed to bail out AIG to the tune of 80 billion because of corporate greed, but a tax paying citizen deserves no help from its government and no recourse from preexisting condition clauses?

A big fark you to the tools in both political parties that fight because your party controls you, and dictates what you should agree and disagree with.
 
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