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(Toronto Star)   "She feels like a real girl and she is a real girl." Transgendered contestant booted from Miss Universe Canada pageant. Yes, you would   (thestar.com) divider line 561
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30797 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2012 at 8:44 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-24 09:49:42 PM  

Ghastly: That was supposed to be

whywouldyoudothat.jpg


If I understand your response, ...

i.imgur.com

It's a tragedy of the commons kind of thing.
 
2012-03-24 09:51:08 PM  

Shadow Blasko: Harridan: girly

As a fat occasional transvestite (executive transvestite) thats ok...

/Of course I squee...


I am a sweet, action, executive transvestite.

a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net
 
2012-03-24 09:52:41 PM  

RoyBatty:
It's a tragedy of the commons kind of thing.


So.... women being dicks.
 
2012-03-24 09:53:24 PM  

Ghastly: Shadow Blasko: Harridan: girly

As a fat occasional transvestite (executive transvestite) thats ok...

/Of course I squee...

I am a sweet, action, executive transvestite.


Hot, I must say... You wear it far better than I could.
 
2012-03-24 09:53:31 PM  
How is puddle formed? How is puddle formed? How seat get wet? They need do way with instain women who pee on their seat.
 
2012-03-24 09:53:38 PM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.


Of all the women I know, not one has any issue with this.
 
2012-03-24 09:56:23 PM  

WhyteRaven74: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.

Of all the women I know, not one has any issue with this.


Yeah, no woman I know has an issue with that either.
 
2012-03-24 10:00:27 PM  
pagead2.googlesyndication.com

Anyone else getting ads for pretty, pretty dresses?
 
2012-03-24 10:11:18 PM  

Ghastly: Shadow Blasko: Harridan: girly

As a fat occasional transvestite (executive transvestite) thats ok...

/Of course I squee...

I am a sweet, action, executive transvestite.

[a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x960]


I was Eddy back in my RHPS days.

A bit more relaxed now. (new window)
 
2012-03-24 10:16:29 PM  

WhyteRaven74: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.

Of all the women I know, not one has any issue with this.


KiplingKat872: WhyteRaven74: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.

Of all the women I know, not one has any issue with this.

Yeah, no woman I know has an issue with that either.


Yes, part of Basic Feminist Sugar and Spice Theory 101 is that no women have problems sharing space with the transgendered.

Well, except for the Michigan Womyn's Festival that is

i.imgur.com

and

i.imgur.com

and

i.imgur.com

But I am sure you folks are right, women don't have a problem sharing restrooms with the transgendered, that's a problem brought on by the sexually oppressed misogynistic homiphobic transphobic male patriarchy.
 
2012-03-24 10:52:47 PM  
Fun email exchange at a radical feminist blog between a lesbian and a trans activist.
http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-reall y/ (new window)

The comments from other radical feminists are pretty hilarious and enlightening as well.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 1:34 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What's the cotton ceiling?
Thanks. Do you really think lesbians are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with a trans woman who is male-bodied?
 
2012-03-24 10:55:00 PM  
More lulz to be had from radical feminists concerning trans activism

http://cherryblossomlife.com/2011/03/26/trans-activism-is-diametrica ll y-opposed-to-feminism/

Trans activism is diametrically opposed to feminism

March 26, 2011 by cherryblossomlife

I'm sure that almost every radical feminist, at one time or another, started out by being sympathetic towards trans women.

Trapped in an unforgiving patriarchy that demands strict adherence to masculinity and femininity, some males are caught out, and are unable to tow the masculine line, leading them to inevitably experience "gender dysphoria".
Unable to act out the masculine pantomime, unable to identify with other males, this small group of vulnerable men reach the conclusion that if they are not men, then they must be... the furthest thing possible from a man...which in male eyes, is a woman.

But why the certainty, when they don't actually know what it's like to be a woman? And why is it always so easy to spot a trans woman online even when they are trying their very best to write "like a woman"?
The answer is simple: To patriarchal consciousness, women, XX females, have no definition, or identity, beyond that which patriarchy allows. They do not exist, except in relation to men. What men believe women to be (Feminine Other) is what women are .

This is the male view.
 
2012-03-24 11:03:55 PM  

RoyBatty: WhyteRaven74: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.

Of all the women I know, not one has any issue with this.

KiplingKat872: WhyteRaven74: ExperianScaresCthulhu: Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.

Of all the women I know, not one has any issue with this.

Yeah, no woman I know has an issue with that either.

Yes, part of Basic Feminist Sugar and Spice Theory 101 is that no women have problems sharing space with the transgendered.

Well, except for the Michigan Womyn's Festival that is

[i.imgur.com image 594x759]

and

[i.imgur.com image 640x417]

and

[i.imgur.com image 484x406]

But I am sure you folks are right, women don't have a problem sharing restrooms with the transgendered, that's a problem brought on by the sexually oppressed misogynistic homiphobic transphobic male patriarchy.


So you really don't see the parallel between this and whites beating up blacks for using their bathroom do you? The fact some cis-women are bigots doesn't mean trans-women should have to change their lives to accomidate them.
 
2012-03-24 11:13:44 PM  

Carth: So you really don't see the parallel between this and whites beating up blacks for using their bathroom do you? The fact some cis-women are bigots doesn't mean trans-women should have to change their lives to accomidate them.


People will tend to see their own prejudices as uniquely justified, even as they recognize and criticize similar prejudices in others. I can just imagine a conversation going on in pre-Civil Rights era US:

"Why does it matter so much to you whether a man is black or white? Just the other day you were talking about how terrible it was that Irish immigrants were discriminated against after coming to America."

"Oh come on, that's a terrible comparison. This is different and you know it."
 
2012-03-24 11:14:10 PM  
Over five hundred posts and no one points out the obvious?

Yes, she's gorgeous. And the reason for why she is gorgeous is probably because she had a metric ton of plastic surgery to look that way. Shaving down the chin. Nose job. Cheek contours. Shrinking the forehead. Breast implants. Blah, blah, blah. In the end, she was given an ideal feminine face and body. Or in this face, a prize winning face and body.

Now there aren't any written in stone rules against plastic surgery in the Miss Universe pageant. However, it is greatly frowned on as giving that recipient an unfair advantage over people with natural beauty. To the point that contestants have sued people claiming that they have had surgery in libel.

So, here's a contestant who obviously did not start off looking that way but had the help of one damn good surgeon, is this fair to the other contestants who did not have the same access to that surgeon as she did?
 
2012-03-24 11:15:23 PM  

RoyBatty: More lulz to be had from radical feminists concerning trans activism

http://cherryblossomlife.com/2011/03/26/trans-activism-is-diametrica ll y-opposed-to-feminism/

Trans activism is diametrically opposed to feminism

March 26, 2011 by cherryblossomlife

I'm sure that almost every radical feminist, at one time or another, started out by being sympathetic towards trans women.

Trapped in an unforgiving patriarchy that demands strict adherence to masculinity and femininity, some males are caught out, and are unable to tow the masculine line, leading them to inevitably experience "gender dysphoria".
Unable to act out the masculine pantomime, unable to identify with other males, this small group of vulnerable men reach the conclusion that if they are not men, then they must be... the furthest thing possible from a man...which in male eyes, is a woman.

But why the certainty, when they don't actually know what it's like to be a woman? And why is it always so easy to spot a trans woman online even when they are trying their very best to write "like a woman"?
The answer is simple: To patriarchal consciousness, women, XX females, have no definition, or identity, beyond that which patriarchy allows. They do not exist, except in relation to men. What men believe women to be (Feminine Other) is what women are .

This is the male view.


For fun, try looking up how radical feminists view abusive lesbian relationships. There is some seriously tortured logic that shows up when trying to defend women from abusive women. Of course by "fun" I mean "Gottverdammt that is some scary ass sh*t", but it's a shorthand...
 
2012-03-24 11:17:39 PM  

mekki: Yes, she's gorgeous. And the reason for why she is gorgeous is probably because she had a metric ton of plastic surgery to look that way. Shaving down the chin. Nose job. Cheek contours. Shrinking the forehead. Breast implants. Blah, blah, blah. In the end, she was given an ideal feminine face and body. Or in this face, a prize winning face and body.


There are men out there that make gorgeous women with little or no special work. Some people just have an androgyny that a little makeup turns into beauty, but a bit of facial hair turns into an attractive man.
 
2012-03-24 11:25:25 PM  

mekki: So, here's a contestant who obviously did not start off looking that way but had the help of one damn good surgeon, is this fair to the other contestants who did not have the same access to that surgeon as she did?


Frankly, I think it's absurd that there are people being rewarded based on what they look like to begin with. Even the ones who "started off" looking beautiful didn't exactly earn it so no, I don't see this as being unfair to them.

On the other hand, the entire process (and most of society at large) isn't fair to people who aren't physically attractive - but that's a whole other story.
 
2012-03-24 11:25:31 PM  

Carth: So you really don't see the parallel between this and whites beating up blacks for using their bathroom do you? The fact some cis-women are bigots doesn't mean trans-women should have to change their lives to accomidate them.


I agree with you.

I was responding to KiplingKat872 & WhyteRaven74 giving us the standard Feminist Sugar and Spice 101 Theory that women don't have issues with the transgendered in their restrooms.

Sadly, I just ran across a very radical feminist website, http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/ that is clearly completely opposed to the transgendered, seemingly refusing to believe, as some of the males in this thread do, that there is even such a thing.
 
2012-03-24 11:31:16 PM  
Aaaaand the Fark Misogyny brigade is out to share their deep insights on women.

Recently at a national neo-pagan conference a Dianic priestess, who had made disparaging remarks about transgendered women before, held an "open ritual" for "genetic women only."

Now according to the mysoginist farkwits on this thread, that means all women hate transgendered women and George Bush is president for life.

Fumny how it didn't go down that way. People of all genders in the community were outraged, embarassed, and deeply saddened. They staged a protest outside the room the ritual took place in and many leaders in the community spoke out about this in the weeks that followed, demanding a public apology or that this priestess not be allowed ritual space at following conventions. Even followers of her broke with her over this issue.

So pointing to a single incidemt means exactly squat in gaging an entire community's, or an entire gender's, feelings about an issue.
 
2012-03-24 11:33:49 PM  
Or should we start looking at the gender most likely to physically assault gay or transgendered people and assume every male on the planet is a homophobic bastard?
 
2012-03-24 11:34:51 PM  

KiplingKat872: Recently at a national neo-pagan conference a Dianic priestess, who had made disparaging remarks about transgendered women before, held an "open ritual" for "genetic women only."


I used to be in PCCO, and a sponsor of WitchVox, and I could not STAND the open dislike for male practitioners.

shiat like that is why I went solitary, and eventually RDNA.
 
2012-03-24 11:37:48 PM  

KiplingKat872: Aaaaand the Fark Misogyny brigade is out to share their deep insights on women.

Recently at a national neo-pagan conference a Dianic priestess, who had made disparaging remarks about transgendered women before, held an "open ritual" for "genetic women only."

Now according to the mysoginist farkwits on this thread, that means all women hate transgendered women and George Bush is president for life.

Fumny how it didn't go down that way. People of all genders in the community were outraged, embarassed, and deeply saddened. They staged a protest outside the room the ritual took place in and many leaders in the community spoke out about this in the weeks that followed, demanding a public apology or that this priestess not be allowed ritual space at following conventions. Even followers of her broke with her over this issue.

So pointing to a single incidemt means exactly squat in gaging an entire community's, or an entire gender's, feelings about an issue.


More Feminism Sugar and Spice 101 Theory from KiplingKat872

Here's Germaine Greer, GERMAINE GREER, on the transgendered....

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/14/in-photos-germaine-greer-glitte r- bombed-for-trans-comments/ (new window)

In Photos: Germaine Greer glitter-bombed for trans comments

Feminist writer Germaine Greer has been glitter-bombed at a book-signing today in New Zealand for her comments about trans women, including a 2009 column which said they 'seem to us ghastly parodies' and claimed being trans was a 'delusion'.

The Queer Avengers group took exception to Greer's brand of what it termed "transphobic feminism" and delivered the glitter in a move more often seen deployed on homophobic politicians in the US.

Germaine Greer unsuccessfully opposed the election of a trans woman to the staff at the women-only Newnham College, Cambridge in the 1990s and the group highlighted her opposition to regarding trans women as women.

In her 1999 book, The Whole Woman, she wrote: "Governments that consist of very few women have hurried to recognise as women men who believe that they are women and have had themselves castrated to prove it, because they see women not as another sex but as a non-sex.
 
2012-03-24 11:42:37 PM  

Shadow Blasko: KiplingKat872: Recently at a national neo-pagan conference a Dianic priestess, who had made disparaging remarks about transgendered women before, held an "open ritual" for "genetic women only."

I used to be in PCCO, and a sponsor of WitchVox, and I could not STAND the open dislike for male practitioners.

shiat like that is why I went solitary, and eventually RDNA.


Its gotten better. Wicca has become quite twisted from Gardener and even the Farrars, very imbalanced and Goddess centric, the refuge of a lot of hurt angry women. Once I completed my year and a day initiation, I ran for the hills and went solitary. But more and more other sects are popping up that welcome and encourage male practitioners. The group I celebrate sabbats with is probably 40% male, and I attend a conference every year a see about the same ratio.
 
2012-03-24 11:45:09 PM  

KiplingKat872: Shadow Blasko: KiplingKat872: Recently at a national neo-pagan conference a Dianic priestess, who had made disparaging remarks about transgendered women before, held an "open ritual" for "genetic women only."

I used to be in PCCO, and a sponsor of WitchVox, and I could not STAND the open dislike for male practitioners.

shiat like that is why I went solitary, and eventually RDNA.

Its gotten better. Wicca has become quite twisted from Gardener and even the Farrars, very imbalanced and Goddess centric, the refuge of a lot of hurt angry women. Once I completed my year and a day initiation, I ran for the hills and went solitary. But more and more other sects are popping up that welcome and encourage male practitioners. The group I celebrate sabbats with is probably 40% male, and I attend a conference every year a see about the same ratio.


Good to know. I doubt I will ever be part of the community again, but I might hit up some festivals and such.
 
2012-03-24 11:45:11 PM  
Not to mention there are a lot of famous male teachers and authors in the neo-pagan world running around right now. At our local occult shop, over half the book signings and guest teachers are men.
 
2012-03-24 11:47:04 PM  

KiplingKat872: Not to mention there are a lot of famous male teachers and authors in the neo-pagan world running around right now. At our local occult shop, over half the book signings and guest teachers are men.


Heh, ever read AJ Drew's wicca for men?

I played more than a bit part in that...

/AJ's gone catholic now, but that was for legal reasons, sadly.
 
2012-03-24 11:49:42 PM  

Shadow Blasko: KiplingKat872: Shadow Blasko: KiplingKat872: Recently at a national neo-pagan conference a Dianic priestess, who had made disparaging remarks about transgendered women before, held an "open ritual" for "genetic women only."

I used to be in PCCO, and a sponsor of WitchVox, and I could not STAND the open dislike for male practitioners.

shiat like that is why I went solitary, and eventually RDNA.

Its gotten better. Wicca has become quite twisted from Gardener and even the Farrars, very imbalanced and Goddess centric, the refuge of a lot of hurt angry women. Once I completed my year and a day initiation, I ran for the hills and went solitary. But more and more other sects are popping up that welcome and encourage male practitioners. The group I celebrate sabbats with is probably 40% male, and I attend a conference every year a see about the same ratio.

Good to know. I doubt I will ever be part of the community again, but I might hit up some festivals and such.


It's worth it, just to keep your toes in the pool and there is a great energy in group rituals. But I know what you mean. I've been scarred by "coven politics" and I can't find a group I really feel comfortable in. They're usually a bit too new age-y fuzzy for me, and I'm more earthy and science based. I just feel comfortable on my own.
 
2012-03-24 11:51:11 PM  

KiplingKat872: They're usually a bit too new age-y fuzzy for me, and I'm more earthy and science based. I just feel comfortable on my own.


Yeah, I always considered myself a technopagan as well.

I like RDNA for those reasons. Its a fun group.
 
2012-03-24 11:56:43 PM  

Shadow Blasko: KiplingKat872: They're usually a bit too new age-y fuzzy for me, and I'm more earthy and science based. I just feel comfortable on my own.

Yeah, I always considered myself a technopagan as well.

I like RDNA for those reasons. Its a fun group.


The Druids are good for that, much more sensible group. And very welcoming to male practioners.

I have not read "Wicca for Men" but after looking at the Amazon reviews, I will check it out. Why did he go catholic?
 
2012-03-25 12:00:07 AM  

KiplingKat872: Shadow Blasko: KiplingKat872: They're usually a bit too new age-y fuzzy for me, and I'm more earthy and science based. I just feel comfortable on my own.

Yeah, I always considered myself a technopagan as well.

I like RDNA for those reasons. Its a fun group.

The Druids are good for that, much more sensible group. And very welcoming to male practioners.

I have not read "Wicca for Men" but after looking at the Amazon reviews, I will check it out. Why did he go catholic?


Legal reasons. I probably should not discuss them here.

I've known AJ for well more than a decade, and he did a LOT for the pagans of Ohio and the midwest in general, so I won't speak badly of him.

I will say that his near electrocution and ensuing legal battles left him with little choice in how he was perceived by the legal community.
 
2012-03-25 12:10:17 AM  

Shadow Blasko: KiplingKat872: Shadow Blasko: KiplingKat872: They're usually a bit too new age-y fuzzy for me, and I'm more earthy and science based. I just feel comfortable on my own.

Yeah, I always considered myself a technopagan as well.

I like RDNA for those reasons. Its a fun group.

The Druids are good for that, much more sensible group. And very welcoming to male practioners.

I have not read "Wicca for Men" but after looking at the Amazon reviews, I will check it out. Why did he go catholic?

Legal reasons. I probably should not discuss them here.

I've known AJ for well more than a decade, and he did a LOT for the pagans of Ohio and the midwest in general, so I won't speak badly of him.

I will say that his near electrocution and ensuing legal battles left him with little choice in how he was perceived by the legal community.


Hrm. See, going solitary I miss all this stuff. But then my spiritual life in not involved in all this stuff, so it's rather nice watching from the bleachers.

Thanks for the chat, nice to run into another on the Path.

Merry meet and all that jazz. ;)
 
2012-03-25 12:17:00 AM  

KiplingKat872: Recently at a national neo-pagan conference a Dianic priestess, who had made disparaging remarks about transgendered women before, held an "open ritual" for "genetic women only."

Now according to the mysoginist farkwits on this thread, that means all women hate transgendered women and George Bush is president for life.


I take it as yet more evidence I should be permitted to subjugate the entire species, enforcing perfection on humanity.

/Perfection is a euphemism for SkyNet-esque death camps.
 
2012-03-25 01:14:57 AM  

hubiestubert: The problem with your point, is that you are assuming a sort of fairy tale: He loves me no matter what!


Not at all. I'm just trying to explain to you that not everyone has the same expectations that you have when it comes to a partner. Not everyone cares about the same things, or would see the same omissions as dishonest. THEREFORE, it is up to you (read: one) to communicate your (one's) expectations of disclosure, and not up to your partner to guess at them.

Also, you've described yourself as a person who only dates people he's friends with first, and that criteria alone sets you apart from most people, and clearly colors your views on the matter at hand. I think it's unreasonable of you to project your expectations onto the entire transgendered world.

And just for kicks, here are some more pictures of a gorgeous transwoman:


213.174.140.76
gimmetranny.com
www.hungangels.com

She's still got man parts, and I'm not completely sure I wouldn't hit it.
 
2012-03-25 02:30:06 AM  

bobbette: steamingpile: Behaviour outside what a species normally does

This is human behaviour. Variance in gender identities has existed throughout human history. And if you're going "species" wide you're going to have to consider that there are multiple human cultures where there are more genders than the male-female binary.


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-03-25 03:12:12 AM  

Ghastly: GoSurfing: inability to empathize

And there, in a nutshell is the entire issue.

For those who are born with gender matching sex, be happy. You lucked out. You scored big time. Now please do your best not to be a dick to those who were not so lucky. Don't make them feel like freaks. Don't make them feel like less than human. Try to make a world where they can feel as fortunate as you are. It won't make your life any less awesome.


Understood. No harm is going to come from me calling someone what they want to be called. And I think that ultimately this century is going to get so complicated, that everything I argued in this thread will look stupid. I'm seeing the err of my thought, because being human is about inclusion rather than exclusion.

Honest question...but after the societal aspects that need to be overcome regarding the LGBT community, is there a next taboo or societal injustice of some kind? Is there a next thing we need to acknowledge to progress? Where does the social progression end, or does it end? Let's say they develop the capability to clone human beings, and some escape from a laboratory, and then demand rights instead of being farmed for their organs...do we honor their request? And I know that my postulation might be reminiscent of the plot of a horrible movie, but honestly aren't these the type of ethical questions we'll inevitably have to be answering as a society in the 21st century? What are the boundaries when a group or individual demands their worldview be considered valid?
 
2012-03-25 03:18:25 AM  

GoSurfing: I actually have thought about that in the past. Funny enough, I've imagined before having my manhood bitten off in a shark attack. And then promptly killing myself as a result, because life would be practically worthless to me. I wouldn't feel like a man, and that's my honest answer.


This is an interesting answer. It sounds like a lot of your self-worth is wrapped up in your genitalia, which I personally can't relate to, but I won't tell you you're wrong to feel that way about yourself. Now, I'm just armchair-psychoanalyzing here, but I think this demonstrates that you're not so different from trans folk. Consider this: if you lost your genitals, you would be devastated, even suicidal, at the fact that you could not be a man (the man you desperately want to be) because you did not have the proper equipment down there. This is exactly how trans people feel.

Not all trans people feel it to that extent; that is, not all are suicidal, and not all opt for genital surgery. But many are, and many do. If you could perfectly surgically reconstruct your genitals after a shark attack, I'll bet you would, because your internal self-perception is that of a man, and you want your body to match that. Likewise, many transwomen surgically change their penis and testes into a neovagina, because their internal self-perception is that of a woman, and they want their body to match that. This internal self-perception is a very powerful force.

GoSurfing: I guess I do need to bear the mark of intolerance. Forgive me for not being able to succinctly articulate my views. I think it comes from my inability to empathize with questioning ones gender. That's a completely foreign concept for me. I guess I should be blessed I don't have to question it? This may be the fault of my reasoning. Every guy has had a girlfriend who'd once say "I just wonder what it would be like to be a man, just for a day, just to know how you think, and what having a penis feels like" Then they ask me if I ever feel that way about being a woman. And I honestly just can't put myself there. I can't even imagine wanting to be a woman. So, yeah, I guess my inability to empathize has caused an inability to accept the logic you farkers have presented in this thread.


This is very insightful...thank you for posting it. This kind of empathy is hard. Trans people spend waaay more time thinking about gender and gender identity than non-trans people do. They can't not think about it. And trying to explain their feelings to a non-trans person can be like trying to explain color to blind man...there is just no frame of reference. So even if you can't understand why someone would question their gender, I hope you can at least understand that those who do question it are doing so for very real and personal reasons, and (in our culture) can have it kind of rough.
 
2012-03-25 03:47:56 AM  

Ghastly: kiwimoogle84: Ghastly: tbyte: Ghastly: So remember folks, the moral of the story is your entire worth as a human being is wrapped up in what kind of genitals you have.

And it's absurd that someone would want to downgrade them.

Because PENIS IS SUPERIOR!

Hey.

BOW! BOW BEFORE MY MAN COCK! THE POWER OF PENIS COMPELS YOU!

You cannot defy the PENIS! The PENIS will not be defied!


"The gun is good. The penis is evil."

/nothing is too obscure for Fark....
 
2012-03-25 04:15:19 AM  

Kar98:
"Cissexual"? You gotta be farking shiatting me. Try "normal".


So you learned a new word today. Congratulations.
 
2012-03-25 04:37:18 AM  

Kar98: but I still maintain that /they/ are the ones with the problem, and it doesn't help /their/ cause to be assholes about it.


Unfortunately, it actually does help their cause. Among those who follow such things, it is well-established that being obnoxious about demanding your rights is the most successful method we have. Gandhi's tactics worked in his time and place, but don't in the US.

Just ask the Suffragettes and African Americans how quietly waiting for society to give you your rights worked. Gays were the first group I'm aware of who were consciously using this technique. And we've come from Stonewall to gay marriage in a generation. OTOH, Native Americans went with waiting patiently, and are still waiting.

It isn't meant to convert adults, incidentally. Few adults ever get over their various prejudices. But the kids listen and quickly catch on that the traditional party line is nothing more than that...a tradition. Just look at any chart showing percentage approval of gay marriage over the years, and you can see the older generation dying off as the new one matures.

We atheists are among the latest groups to adopt the winning strategy. I'm sincerely sorry. I don't like being an obnoxious atheist. But it's what works, and what will make the world a better place for my atheist son.
 
2012-03-25 05:01:34 AM  

GoSurfing: Honest question...but after the societal aspects that need to be overcome regarding the LGBT community, is there a next taboo or societal injustice of some kind? Is there a next thing we need to acknowledge to progress? Where does the social progression end, or does it end? Let's say they develop the capability to clone human beings, and some escape from a laboratory, and then demand rights instead of being farmed for their organs...do we honor their request? And I know that my postulation might be reminiscent of the plot of a horrible movie, but honestly aren't these the type of ethical questions we'll inevitably have to be answering as a society in the 21st century? What are the boundaries when a group or individual demands their worldview be considered valid?


Yes there are numerous minorities who consider themselves oppressed and are planning their attack on our social assumptions as we speak. As an atheist, I'm directly involved in one. I happen to be in-favor of that one.

The most extreme such group I'm aware of, in my own subjective ranking, are the BIID people (new window). My reaction to them is much like yours to transexualism: I can't get the concept to fit into my brain well enough to start understanding it.

I wonder where it ends, too. I wonder IF it ends, and which answer I would even prefer. But I will say this: If we're growing human clones to harvest organs, and they have self-aware human brains, I'm on the clones' side. When the first AI decides to start pushing for rights, I'll probably be on its side, too. For an AI, I'd figure just wanting rights without being programmed for it was close enough to human that it's time to start a social dialog that'll probably last at least a generation.
 
2012-03-25 08:41:47 AM  
"She feels like a real girl"

So does this guy:

img812.imageshack.us
 
2012-03-25 09:16:02 AM  

Oznog: [images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 640x426]


Came for Mr.Garrison picture, leaving satisfied.
 
2012-03-25 10:46:23 AM  
g-ecx.images-amazon.com

'I'm a real boy!"
 
2012-03-25 11:43:01 AM  

Beowoolfie: Kar98: but I still maintain that /they/ are the ones with the problem, and it doesn't help /their/ cause to be assholes about it.

Unfortunately, it actually does help their cause. Among those who follow such things, it is well-established that being obnoxious about demanding your rights is the most successful method we have. Gandhi's tactics worked in his time and place, but don't in the US.

Just ask the Suffragettes and African Americans how quietly waiting for society to give you your rights worked. Gays were the first group I'm aware of who were consciously using this technique. And we've come from Stonewall to gay marriage in a generation. OTOH, Native Americans went with waiting patiently, and are still waiting.

It isn't meant to convert adults, incidentally. Few adults ever get over their various prejudices. But the kids listen and quickly catch on that the traditional party line is nothing more than that...a tradition. Just look at any chart showing percentage approval of gay marriage over the years, and you can see the older generation dying off as the new one matures.

We atheists are among the latest groups to adopt the winning strategy. I'm sincerely sorry. I don't like being an obnoxious atheist. But it's what works, and what will make the world a better place for my atheist son.


This is well said.
 
2012-03-25 01:57:34 PM  
even a few days later, I'd still hit it with all my hitting power.
 
2012-03-25 02:55:29 PM  
SHE IS NOT A "REAL GIRL"!
Stop it.
Stop confusing aesthetics with genetics.
 
2012-03-25 03:10:51 PM  

thelordofcheese: SHE IS NOT A "REAL GIRL"!
Stop it.
Stop confusing aesthetics with genetics.


to some of us, it doesn't really matter.

To those to whom it does: figure out your own issues.
 
2012-03-25 03:45:24 PM  
I'm a girl!

Lets make a baby!

Noo i can't cause I'm a man.
 
2012-03-25 04:17:47 PM  

KiplingKat872: GoldSpider: Mouser: A person who thinks they're in the wrong sex of body has a healthy body and a damaged mind. Shouldn't they be repairing their mind rather than damaging their body in an attempt to make the two fit together?

That's kind of how I see it as well. The whole gender-reassignment process and all of the physical trauma that comes with it seems a rather extreme way to avoid the stigma of being labeled as having a "mental disorder".

How funny both of you ignorant farks do not realize that part of the gender reassignment process is a LOT of time with shrinks verifying that this is what is best for the person's mental and emotional health rather than something they will regret later.


Any shrink whose diagnosis is to mutilate a perfectly healthy set of genitals seriously needs to have his qualifications re-examined.
 
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