GoSurfing: KiplingKat872: That is not right or fair for you to dictate how these people choose to think of themselves and intetact with the world when they are committing no crime and not hurting you in anyway.

For the record, I'm not anti-LGBT. I'm all for personal freedom, do what ever you'd like to your body. Consider yourself whatever you'd like to consider yourself, be with whoever you'd like to be with. I just think I'm not automatically obligated to call you what you think of yourself, and I don't know why that would make me a bigot.

Because you are choosing to be blind to who they are as much as you would if you kept trying to set up a gay male friend with hot chicks.

It no different to call a person the pronoun of the gender they identify with than addressing someone by their name. It simple basic respect for who they are.

GoSurfing: Right, it's my foot-stamping insistence that's idiotic...not those with mutilated penises claiming to be women or vice versa.

Yes, you are an idiot. You have so far managed to do the following:

- Attempted to make an invalid comparison by comparing two static things to a dynamic, alterable thing.
- Attempted to claim gender identity is axiomatic (which is interesting to all the cultures which have or had third genders, which demonstrates that it is not axiomatic) by virtue of that which is marked on a birth certificate, later forced to abandon this claim.
- Demonstrated you have no idea what an axiom is.
- Made a claim that rests on the idea that infertile people have no gender.

And now you're simply whining.

Biological Ali: KiplingKat872: Because there is no "mulatto" cultural identity. There is a "black/african-american" cultural identity that Obama clearly self identifies with.

Same with transgender. What you suggest is for these people to remain culturally and personally isolated from both genders when they clearly self identify as either a woman for MtoFs or man for FtoMs.

That is not right or fair for you to dictate how these people choose to think of themselves and intetact with the world when they are committing no crime and not hurting you in anyway.

Yeah. Obama is a mulatto. He's also black. There's no reason for those to be mutually exclusive terms. The lady in TFA is a transgendered individual who was born male. She's also a woman. There's no reason for those to be mutually exclusive things as well.

No of course not, but to insist that a transgender person self and culturally identify as "transgendered" rather than "woman" or "man" is incredibly isolating amd just makes them feel worse about themselves than what they have already struggled with.

Biological Ali: KiplingKat872: Because there is no "mulatto" cultural identity. There is a "black/african-american" cultural identity that Obama clearly self identifies with.

Same with transgender. What you suggest is for these people to remain culturally and personally isolated from both genders when they clearly self identify as either a woman for MtoFs or man for FtoMs.

That is not right or fair for you to dictate how these people choose to think of themselves and intetact with the world when they are committing no crime and not hurting you in anyway.

Yeah. Obama is a mulatto. He's also black. There's no reason for those to be mutually exclusive terms. The lady in TFA is a transgendered individual who was born male. She's also a woman. There's no reason for those to be mutually exclusive things as well.

Not to mention by keeping groups like that socially isolated, it makes them easier to discriminate against.

GoSurfing: Does that double standard tarnish your analogy?

Add "double standard" in with "axiom" as a thing you have no functional understanding of.

GoSurfing: I'm not smart enough to know.

Well well, you're finally starting to understand the reality you claim so loudly to adhere to.

I was going to post pics of Baily Jay, but I got, erm... distracted, yeah that's it... and don't feel like posting them now.

So, it's like going to Taco Bell, wanting a taco, and when you pull up to the window they hand you a hot dog.... you look at the hot dog for a while, and say to yourself "this isn't right." So you take the hotdog inside to the counter and say "hey buddy, this hotdog just doesn't work for me.... take it and slap a taco on me."

/it's easier for me to understand, if I first convert the issue to something I care about.

FarkinHostile: We already have a definition for a person born a male, feels female and lives as a female. It's called Transgendered Male. Not Female, and not 100% Real Woman. Transgendered Male. That is the correct term, and there is nothing to be ashamed of about being one.

That is actually not the correct term. It is considered correct to refer to trans people as the gender with which they identify. Therefore a person born male who feels female is a transgender woman, or transwoman for short.

/or "woman" for even shorter.

Biological Ali: KiplingKat872: Because there is no "mulatto" cultural identity. There is a "black/african-american" cultural identity that Obama clearly self identifies with.

Same with transgender. What you suggest is for these people to remain culturally and personally isolated from both genders when they clearly self identify as either a woman for MtoFs or man for FtoMs.

That is not right or fair for you to dictate how these people choose to think of themselves and intetact with the world when they are committing no crime and not hurting you in anyway.

Yeah. Obama is a mulatto. He's also black. There's no reason for those to be mutually exclusive terms. The lady in TFA is a transgendered individual who was born male. She's also a woman. There's no reason for those to be mutually exclusive things as well.

Go Surfing made a valid point, and you underscored it through omission. Twice.

/why isn't Obama 'also white'?

GoSurfing: Not trolling in the slightest. A man is born a man, a woman is born a woman. There are no shifts between the two genders.

The very existence of trans people indicates that maybe, just maybe, the world is not as black-and-white as you seem to think it is.

You can't be born a woman, and then change your mind, and then begin producing sperm, and have a child.

No one is saying you can. Sperm production is a function of the body's biological sex, not the mind's self-perception of gender identity.

You can't be born a man, and then change your mind, and then get pregnant, and deliver birth to a child.

No one is saying you can. Fetus gestation is a function of the body's biological sex, not the mind's self-perception of gender identity.

I'm sorry if this truth disturbs you.

And I'm sorry that your arguments here are straw men. There is a distinct difference between biological sex and gender identity. Usually the two line up; sometimes they don't. I'm sorry if this truth disturbs you, but it's a fact, and it's not going away.

Let me ask you an honest question. If, as the result of an accident, you were to lose your testes (I'm presuming here that you're male), would you suddenly stop self-identifying as a male? Would it affect your self-perception of your gender identity? Is your gender identity localized in your balls, or in your brain? You don't have to answer here; just think about it, and it may help you to understand where trans people are coming from.

abhorrent1: [happolatismiscellany.files.wordpress.com image 325x475]

/sure why not

Well if anything anyone - transgendered or otherwise - should be banned from the competition if they've had plastic surgery, especially as much plastic surgery as that. Even if she were a 'naturally born woman' that amount of plastic face should not be allowed in a beauty contest. Obvious nose and lip job is obvious.

/Otherwise the face is well done

KiplingKat872: Biological Ali: KiplingKat872: Because there is no "mulatto" cultural identity. There is a "black/african-american" cultural identity that Obama clearly self identifies with.

Same with transgender. What you suggest is for these people to remain culturally and personally isolated from both genders when they clearly self identify as either a woman for MtoFs or man for FtoMs.

That is not right or fair for you to dictate how these people choose to think of themselves and intetact with the world when they are committing no crime and not hurting you in anyway.

Yeah. Obama is a mulatto. He's also black. There's no reason for those to be mutually exclusive terms. The lady in TFA is a transgendered individual who was born male. She's also a woman. There's no reason for those to be mutually exclusive things as well.

No of course not, but to insist that a transgender person self and culturally identify as "transgendered" rather than "woman" or "man" is incredibly isolating amd just makes them feel worse about themselves than what they have already struggled with.

But... they *are* transgendered. The only way to get over feeling incredibly isolated and worse about yourself is not to pull the 'I'm not black I'm brown' crap from the Harlem Renaissance era, but to own your blackness, 'I'm young, gifted, black and proud', like the Civil Rights era.

You are transgendered, be proud of being yourself.

But you are not a Real Girl, or a Real Boy.

Example two: there is no shame in being Adopted. Adopteds took it back. Instead of feeling isolated and worse, you tell yourself, I was Chosen! and I'm just as much Such and Such's Child as their biological. What Adopted's DON'T do, is claim that they're someone's Biological Child and demand that others refer to them as Biologicals and point to changed birth certificates as proof that they are Biological Children of such and such.

I'd hit it.

/bigots piss me off, especially when they know they're caught and keep trying to twist the blame back onto someone else.

I don't know whether I would hit it or not. But...far, far more than I might want to hit it, I would love to have Rush Limbaugh hit it and then have it brought out in public.

GoSurfing: patternmatch: There is a distinct difference between biological sex and gender identity.

Only since about 1955. They were considered synonymous before that, yes? The rest of human civilization didn't tend to get so high on opiates and rewrite everything.

No, not really. Their have been cultures in both AmerIndian regions and Asia that recognized a third in-between gender, and around stage where women were forbidden and men played womens roles (and pobably the same guys got cast as women over and over) gender identity has been fluid.

Amazing thing here, we're talking a lot of hypothetical. Unless someone comes right out and blatantly says "Hey I'm a MtF trans", how you gonna know? The whole adams apple hip proportion thing really doesn't work, as it's more controlled my hormones than anything XX XY. Trust me, there are some seriously "manly" girls out there, and wildly girly men.

Real world interaction is more likely to go:

Here's your change sir."
"That's ma'am."
"oh sorry"

Not

"Here's your change sir."
"That's ma'am."
"NO I KNOW BETTER YOU ARE A MALE GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!"

Pardon, "THERE have been cultures..."

Sorry.

talulahgosh: GoSurfing: Dr. Mojo PhD: Add "double standard" in with "axiom" as a thing you have no functional understanding of.

Add reality to something you have no functional understanding of.

The world we live in is a relatively tolerant place, but people will only put up with so much bullshiat. One of the bullshiat things sane people won't put up with is calling a man a woman (or vice versa) just because the individual feels like one.

what is the big deal? it's not like it affects you anyway.

Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.

Many biological women feel uncomfortable having transgenders or persons claiming to be transitioning using their changing rooms.

Having nonbiological women compete as biological women DEFINITELY affects competitions involving physical prowess and physical attractiveness.

The transgender is going to have a physical advantage over biological women when it comes to strength, simply because of their years of development as men, and being biologically male. Many biological women will be able to touch them, but that's only because they are extraordinary; the vast majority of biological women will not be able to touch them -- and so certain hormones are banned during the Olympics, the East German team has tell-all interviews after the fact about biological women who have had to reassign as men because of the drugs they were forced to take in order to compete, and Castor Semenya.. is Castor Semenya.

And simply put, in a world where less body fat equals more beautiful, the transgender has an unfair advantage over the biological woman who will always have more body fat, her hips will be wider; if the standard of feminine beauty is a man -- where does that leave women?

There was a sci-fi short story which dealt with that............ what was it called... had 'Birds' in the title.

DreamSnipers: I don't know whether I would hit it or not. But...far, far more than I might want to hit it, I would love to have Rush Limbaugh hit it and then have it brought out in public.

Because the vast majority of the public doesn't believe this dude is a chick, and will see the act as homosexual, not heterosexual?

End of thread, folks.

jaspyrnyte: Bit'O'Gristle: Ya...um...no..i wouldn't. And yes..secondly, just because they cut off your man bits, and give you boobies, doesn't mean you're a "real girl". You are a genetic man, regardless of "how you feel" and nothing will change that. Do i feel sorry for people in this situation? The feeling of being born the "wrong sex?" Of course i do. It must be terrible. However, getting all those operations doesn't make you magically the opposite sex, mtf or ftm. I do hope that this person has found happiness in their new form though.

You're wrong. My mate is trans. f2m, and more of a man than you'll ever be.

Dudes who prefer 'ladyboys' will say the same shiat about those dudes being 'more woman' than woman. What exactly does that mean, though?

Anyway, you got all pissy because Bit O Gristle doesn't look at transgenders as exactly the same as biologicals. Transgenders are not and never will be. They are transgenders. They need to take pride in that and stop trying to force others into believing that some chemicals and plastic surgery transmutes them as completely as wine into blood.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: talulahgosh: GoSurfing: Dr. Mojo PhD: Add "double standard" in with "axiom" as a thing you have no functional understanding of.

Add reality to something you have no functional understanding of.

The world we live in is a relatively tolerant place, but people will only put up with so much bullshiat. One of the bullshiat things sane people won't put up with is calling a man a woman (or vice versa) just because the individual feels like one.

what is the big deal? it's not like it affects you anyway.

Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.

Many biological women feel uncomfortable having transgenders or persons claiming to be transitioning using their changing rooms.

.

There was a time when many whites were uncomfortable with blacks using their drinking fountains or pool. Then heterosexuals were uncomfortable with homosexuals playing on their sports teams. It isn't a minority job to conform to the majorities biases.

GoSurfing: Ghastly: GoSurfing: I'm not smart enough to know.

Well, in your case not knowing is half the battle.

I guess that for the transgendered, convincing everyone else they are what they say they are, but obviously aren't, is the entire battle.

Oh please. I'm a woman and I have been surprised by the piece of info that the woman I am dealing with used to be anatomically male.

RoyBatty: Bagelox-99: Do people with these things not deserve touch, love, sex, and the ability to be happy about who they are?Nobody actually deserves these things. Only the ability to work for them.If society says no, or never says yes, or if you get tired of the fight, game over.

I think that mental health experts would say that touch and sex is a vital and necessary component of a healthy life, and in that sense I would say everyone deserves touch and sex.

In the constitutional/cultural sense, I agree with you that what is deserved is the pursuit of happiness, not necessarily happiness itself.

I think my point was that many of the people deploring FH for his "bigoted" attitude probably have plenty of deplorable deal breakers of their own that those of us who are enlightened can see are silly little prejudices born of their ignorance and overly-privileged lives.

They deserve to be able to persue the opportunity without the state standing in thier way. The state, however, is not obligated to provide these things. Not an entitlement.

Carth: ExperianScaresCthulhu: talulahgosh: GoSurfing: Dr. Mojo PhD: Add "double standard" in with "axiom" as a thing you have no functional understanding of.

Add reality to something you have no functional understanding of.

The world we live in is a relatively tolerant place, but people will only put up with so much bullshiat. One of the bullshiat things sane people won't put up with is calling a man a woman (or vice versa) just because the individual feels like one.

what is the big deal? it's not like it affects you anyway.

Many biological women do not want transgenders or transitioning persons using their restrooms.

Many biological women feel uncomfortable having transgenders or persons claiming to be transitioning using their changing rooms.

.

There was a time when many whites were uncomfortable with blacks using their drinking fountains or pool. Then heterosexuals were uncomfortable with homosexuals playing on their sports teams. It isn't a minority job to conform to the majorities biases.

Do not understand why they would feel more uncomfortable with a transgender woman than they would by the possiblity that one of the ciswomen around them might be a lesbian!ZOMGWhargarbbgle....

Christ jebus, a most transgendered women are not interested in conservative cows.

talulahgosh: if_i_really_have_to: abhorrent1: [happolatismiscellany.files.wordpress.com image 325x475]

/sure why not

Well if anything anyone - transgendered or otherwise - should be banned from the competition if they've had plastic surgery, especially as much plastic surgery as that. Even if she were a 'naturally born woman' that amount of plastic face should not be allowed in a beauty contest. Obvious nose and lip job is obvious.

/Otherwise the face is well done

you're kidding right? all of those girls have had it!!

Then none of them should be in the contest. I'm not into beauty contests at all, but I believe there are some that have a 'no plastic' requirement. Obviously this competition doesn't. But it should, because it's not a beauty contest otherwise, it's a plastic surgery contest. Like that awful TV show 'The Swan'.

I didn't say before, but her boob job is also bad. Not horrible, but not good. It's really her own fault for requesting a cup size too big for her natural frame. If she had have gone smaller, they would have looked great.

GoSurfing: Dr. Mojo PhD: Add "double standard" in with "axiom" as a thing you have no functional understanding of.

Add reality to something you have no functional understanding of.

Aww, isn't that adorable, you're mimicking me, thereby acknowledging me as your superior and attempting to jockey for position by parroting what you (rightly) recognize as my superiority. But remember when we established that you're stupid? There's no reason we should believe that you're correct about my perception of reality -- it would, after all, defy the norm.

GoSurfing: The world we live in is a relatively tolerant place, but people will only put up with so much bullshiat. One of the bullshiat things sane people won't put up with is calling a man a woman (or vice versa) just because the individual feels like one.

No, no, no. You're doing it again. You're doing that thing where you project your ideas onto the populace at large. Just because you do something doesn't mean you're right. For example, I believe you should be publicly executed because I believe demonstrable stupidity should be a capital crime without possibility of appeal. Am I right by virtue of believing this? Of course not, that's crazy talk! Similarly, you aren't right about what the majority of people think just because you think it.

Ghastly: ExperianScaresCthulhu:
Many biological women feel uncomfortable having transgenders or persons claiming to be transitioning using their changing rooms.


From what I've discovered there are many biological women who feel uncomfortable with anything female anywhere near them. But dicks will be dicks.

Women also seem to have a huge preference/tendency to pee on their toilet seats and destroy their restrooms. I do think there is some evidence they pathologically hate each other, even the very feminist ones.