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(Toronto Star)   "She feels like a real girl and she is a real girl." Transgendered contestant booted from Miss Universe Canada pageant. Yes, you would   (thestar.com) divider line 561
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30789 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2012 at 8:44 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-24 01:05:37 PM

mudesi: FarkinHostile: mudesi:

And the first homophobe makes an appearance. Took longer than I thought.


Yup, I'm terrified of homosexuals. So terrified, in fact, that I have had this exact conversation in a gay bar with a group of my gay friends.

BTW, TG is not the same as homosexual. Just an FYI.

Dude, you're not fooling anyone. You're scared of being attracted to a TG woman because she was born with a penis. You can't possibly fathom in that small, tiny, little mind of yours that it's possible that YOU, yes YOU, may have a romantic/sexual reaction to a person who may have once had a penis.

It so frightens you that you pretend it's about "lying". Um, no. It's about your own insecurities. A TG woman is NOT a man, she just happened to have the wrong sexual orgran at one time. You can't deal with it? It's your problem, not hers.

Ho. mo. phobe.


LOL, I love how the bar constantly moves on this word. At some point, a person will need to engage in gay sex to prove they aren't homophobic. And if they don't like it, homophobic. Which means they are secretly gay. If they do like it, gay.

Stupidest. Word. Ever. As are the people who use it (stupid).

I don't want to even think about my parents having sex. I do not hate them, and I am not secretly attracted to parental sex. I am not parentalphobic.
 
2012-03-24 01:06:08 PM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Ghastly: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Passing as trans is so last year now.


[a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 431x720]
I was passing before it became mainstream.


/you rock baby!

You're a dude who dresses like a chick and fks other dudes. That doesn't make you a chick because you like the cock as well as the girly girl shiat.


I never said I was a chick, dude.

Why the hell would I want to settle for just one gender when I can be them all?
i.chzbgr.com
 
2012-03-24 01:08:05 PM

FarkinHostile: Ghastly:

Hey! It's the "some of my best friends are black gay" gambit! That one NEVER fails!


I would never have black friends.


Serious question.

H0w do you consider gay and transgender to be two different things when you said yourself you don't accept the fact that they have become a man/woman? Wouldn't that just make them Gays cross dressing but going the extra mile? I am confused.
 
2012-03-24 01:08:54 PM

SwissArmyGnome: theflatline: Twin 40s: theflatline: she looks like the tranny street walkers you see throughout latin america.

Way to be genial and understanding to one of the most hated and ostracized groups of people in America.

Actually i do not hate on the transgendered, I have a cousin who got the operation years ago, and he is pretty well adjusted.


But you're using the wrong pronouns, which seems rather disrespectful. Maybe the "look at me" phase was just to get the slower people like you to catch on.

And before someone starts in about chromosomes or mutilated genitals, please note that there is a distinct difference between sex and gender. Your genitals or chromosomes are nobody elses damn business. Pronouns and societal norms need to be based on gender, not sex. One is public, the other is private. Why is this so hard for some people?


XX is female, XY is male. Some small percentage is both or neither. I make my judgement about what you are by appearance, and if you can fool me about your gender, more power to you. Don't TELL me what I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT YOU!
 
2012-03-24 01:11:11 PM
Okay, scanned five pages (and probably missed a whole bunch of people) but, Back to the two posts that started it all:


Dr. Mojo PhD:
FarkinHostile: That point made, TG people, why must you insist you are something you truly are not? This is my only problem with TG people: this insistence that your psychological issue somehow trumps biology and what the rest of society defines as female, and that I am somehow a bigot if I don't agree with your fantasy/delusion.

Here's a simple question. If your brain (assuming you have one) was plucked from your body and kept alive in a box, would you stop being you? No, of course not, that's stupid, the consciousness, or soul, or whatever you want to call it, resides in the psyche of the person, not the meat machine.




I'm mad. I spent five pages scanning for someone -- ANYONE -- to realistically cover the topic of FarkinHostile bringing in photos of otherkin, people who really do believe that they were born the wrong species, instead of dismissing it being brought up out of hand.................... or outright ignoring it in order to pull some faux-civil-rights-outrage bullshiat.

Furries are met with disgust here. It's acceptable. It's expected. Why?

Well............. why *can't* someone say they feel they were born the wrong species?

Why *can't* someone surgically alter their body until they are more like the species they believe they are inside their head? Even if -- like with TGs -- they will never have all the natural aspects of that 'other' they believe they were born as, without serious medical and hormonal help?

What's the difference between telling someone their head is okay just different, and telling someone their head is off-kilter?

If someone doesn't believe that Lizard dude is truly a Lizard, or Cat girl is truly a Cat, or Wolf pack are truly Wolfen, why then ask others to believe that TG is truly a human chick or a human dude?

All of this to say: I wanted to see *ALL* of the folks condemning FarkinHostile as a bigot and intolerate standing up and saying 'yes, those people truly are what they believe they are, even if it means they believe they are a different species' as their very Weeners to FH.

Instead, just got a bunch of alternative socially acceptable TG Power bullshiat. It's like watching surburban kids get tats and piercings to be edgy. Yeah, you dyed your hair with kool aid and your BFF lives in a house which is only worth a couple hundred thou... oh my, sooooooooooooo edgy and down with the peoples. Meanwhile, it isn't cool yet to choose to live in a trailer and cut your hair in a mullet. There's edgy and there's 'still acceptable targets'.
 
2012-03-24 01:13:28 PM

kiwimoogle84: Honest Bender: Ghastly: I was passing before it became mainstream.

No disrespect intended, but I don't think you've ever "passed" in your life.

I'd scissor with him.

/is it spank your maid month yet?


Always.

1st. Ghastly had me at first.
2nd. I've never been with a guy, although I can't say for certain that I'd be opposed to it. Curiosity and all.
3rd. It would probably be easier with MMF.
 
2012-03-24 01:16:13 PM

tooltime: Serious question.

H0w do you consider gay and transgender to be two different things when you said yourself you don't accept the fact that they have become a man/woman? Wouldn't that just make them Gays cross dressing but going the extra mile? I am confused.

You're

confused? (whatthefarkamireading.com)

Gay: Sexually attracted to same sex
TG: Born a male, "feel" female or vice a versa. (nutshell)

It's been pointed out that one can be a TG male and still be attracted to only females. She is not gay, she is heterosexual as she is biologically a man. I'm sure this is not the typical TG person, but the terms are somewhat mutually exclusive. One is Sexual orientation, the other gender identity.
 
2012-03-24 01:18:13 PM

RedVentrue: XX is female, XY is male. Some small percentage is both or neither.


And what about Klinefelter's Syndrome? Does that fall under XX, XY, both, or neither? Are you saying a Klinefelter's male isn't male by virtue of being XXY? Is he both for being XX(Y) and (X)XY? Is he neither? What about a 46XX/46XY chimera with both testicular and ovarian tissue where one set of tissue is non-functioning? Is that both by virtue of the chimera, or, say, 66% one gender, 33% the other, by virtue of having two fully functional characteristics of one gender, and only one of the other? Or is "both" leaven in the sense of Galatians 5:9, where a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
 
2012-03-24 01:19:00 PM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Carth: FarkinHostile: Carth: FarkinHostile:

Stop making excuses for deceit and lying. I will never condone it, under any circumstances.

So are you against anyone lying for any reason? What about just not disclosing all information?

Lying by omission

Also known as a continuing misrepresentation, a lie by omission occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. When the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service, the seller lies by omission.

Do you think someone who fears for their life has a moral requirement to disclose information that could lead to their harm or death?

Are you for real??????! Did you really just ask that?


Notice he didn't say "of course you can lie if you fear for your safety that is a stupid question".
 
2012-03-24 01:19:16 PM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: I'm mad. I spent five pages scanning for someone -- ANYONE -- to realistically cover the topic of FarkinHostile bringing in photos of otherkin, people who really do believe that they were born the wrong species, instead of dismissing it being brought up out of hand.................... or outright ignoring it in order to pull some faux-civil-rights-outrage bullshiat.



Don't hold your breath, darling. That is one that is very difficult to answer without resorting to all sorts of obvious logical fallacies.
 
2012-03-24 01:20:26 PM

FarkinHostile: This is a real lizard:



This is a real cat:



Another real cat:




That point made, TG people, why must you insist you are something you truly are not? This is my only problem with TG people: this insistence that your psychological issue somehow trumps biology and what the rest of society defines as female, and that I am somehow a bigot if I don't agree with your fantasy/delusion. Fine, you think like a woman. Fine, you went and got radical surgery to resemble a woman. Fine, you live as a woman. You are NOT a woman, you are a Transgendered MAN, and nothing is going to change that. What is so terrible about accepting what you are? You are still a person, with every right every other human has, so why push what many of feel is deception and lying? THAT is my problem, the entire issue smacks of deceit to me, and I despise deceit.

Be up front about it and we would never have a problem. Hell, who knows, I might be willing to have a relationship with a TG man if they were open, honest, and totally hot. I doubt it, but I am open to consider the question if they look as good as that one does.

You would do much to help gain acceptance, IMNSHO, if the deception wasn't an issue.


For the most part I agree. It's nothing malicious. I don't want to grab a tranny, shake her about the ears and scream "YOU'RE A DOOD!". I just don't buy in to what they're selling.
 
2012-03-24 01:21:21 PM

tooltime: ExperianScaresCthulhu: tooltime: If you identify as a woman you are a woman, Whether you have a penis or not. Stop all the hating because you cant understand the lifestyle. If you have a personal relationship, the TG has the right to tell you or not tell you. You do not have to disclose yourself as an asshole but you are one. Keep up the bigoted work asshole. Yea you farkinhostile

If I identified as a man, would I really be a man?
Is this person a man?

[i.telegraph.co.uk image 460x288]

Yes if you will read any articles written about him it would be man gives birth. You need to stop classifying people until you can actually check out the chromosomes. Do you walk around with a lab? I'm sure you read articles about the man giving birth. We have some major bigots in Fark.

Welcometofark.jpeg

I know


Right. "Man gives birth" in the same vein as "Live Freak Show: Alligator Boy", not in the same vein as 'Scientific Miracle!' Besides, Thomas Beattie's chromosomes would tell me that s/he's a chick. Thomas Beattie is described as 'legal man'. What does that even mean, ultimately? It's not a man who gave birth, it's someone who is legally accepted as a dude, but who is, without all the hormone therapy, a chick.

No, I don't walk around with a lab, and I generally take people at face value................................................................. ............. but I also still live with the echoes of 'passing', so I don't take everyone to be exactly as who they say they are, just because they say it.

If you truly believe Thomas Beattie is a dude, more power to you. I just see a bearded lady, myself. The beard does not make the man. Not to me, at any rate. But if it works for you, it works for you, and there's room enough in the world for both of us.
 
2012-03-24 01:21:32 PM

Conquistadork: So, y'know: 50/50.



I just got this :)

(applause)
 
2012-03-24 01:22:39 PM
For all the bagging on FarkinHostile, it boils down to not wanting to be lied to. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's not homophobic. That's not transphobic. That's just wanting good friends.

Good people don't start friendships by lying to them. It's not healthy.

That's not the way to start any relationship. Not a friendship. Not a romantic relationship. If you're afraid that someone might get violent with you, if you tell them the truth about yourself: DON'T DATE THAT MOTHERF*CKER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That's not a hard thing.

Gender roles being fluid, that's fine. Wanting to be accepted for having less defined gender roles as some, there's nothing wrong with that. Be that someone who is a transvestite--often straight, but just wanting to look fabulous--to transgendered, or someone who just likes a little androgyny on occasion. FarkinHostile's point is to be honest about who you are. That's not bad advice for anyone.

I like girls. I sometimes like to smack girls on the bottom with the flat of my hand in the moment. That's something that sort of should come up in a conversation, especially if you find out someone that you want to date has had abusive relationships in the past. Only way I can get off? Not in the least, but it's something you bring up maybe before just taking a wild swing in the saddle. You want to date a fella, it's good form to let him know that you both wanted to be Batman growing up, and maybe had the same style Underoos. If he's the guy that you figured he'd be good dating material, he's not going to care. If he does care about such things, then how is lying to him going to establish any sort of relationship? Is just blowing him and getting a cheap bunk up worth lying to him for, if you're NOT interested in really dating him?

It's not homophobic or transphobic to want honesty.
 
2012-03-24 01:23:17 PM
lolnope
 
2012-03-24 01:23:19 PM

mooseyfate: For the most part I agree. It's nothing malicious. I don't want to grab a tranny, shake her about the ears and scream "YOU'RE A DOOD!". I just don't buy in to what they're selling.


Nope, your a bigot and a homophone.

Sorry.
 
2012-03-24 01:23:21 PM
It bugs me when people say the mind and the body are separate. They're not. My feet are as much a part of me as my brain is, just with a different function. I can't survive without my body organs. The brain is just another one of them.

Perhaps if we stopped thinking that way, we would all be a lot healthier.

***This comment is completely unrelated to the transgender topic at issue in this thread. Simply an aside***
 
2012-03-24 01:24:22 PM
God damn would I! It's amazing what they can do nowadays.
 
2012-03-24 01:24:22 PM

FarkinHostile: mooseyfate: For the most part I agree. It's nothing malicious. I don't want to grab a tranny, shake her about the ears and scream "YOU'RE A DOOD!". I just don't buy in to what they're selling.

Nope, you're a bigot and a homobanana-phone.

Sorry.


FTFM.
 
2012-03-24 01:26:27 PM

FarkinHostile:
Nope, your a bigot and a homophone.


Ringringringringringringringring HOMOPHONE! (doot doot doo doo doo doot)
 
2012-03-24 01:27:08 PM
I guess I have no chance with Ghastly after this thread.


Always the bridesmaid, never the bride :(
 
2012-03-24 01:27:18 PM
Curse my slow fingers.
 
2012-03-24 01:28:53 PM
s3-ak.buzzfed.com

ahhhh hmmm... she, uh, a-look-a like-a girl.
 
2012-03-24 01:29:22 PM
Everyone has a chance with Ghastly!
 
2012-03-24 01:29:30 PM

hubiestubert: I like girls. I sometimes like to smack girls on the bottom with the flat of my hand in the moment.


What's with this? I've seen cumulatively in my entire life about 5-10 minutes of porn, and this always occurs. I can't figure out what men get from this. Can you enlighten me? This is a genuinely honest question.
 
2012-03-24 01:30:50 PM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: I'm mad. I spent five pages scanning for someone -- ANYONE -- to realistically cover the topic of FarkinHostile bringing in photos of otherkin, people who really do believe that they were born the wrong species, instead of dismissing it being brought up out of hand.................... or outright ignoring it in order to pull some faux-civil-rights-outrage bullshiat.

Furries are met with disgust here. It's acceptable. It's expected. Why?


To actually answer your question as to how we discriminate between the two, it's (unsurprisingly) incredibly simple. Do human beings normally fall into one of two genders? Yes. Do human beings sometimes express novel, norm-defying structures? Yes. Therefore logic dictates that gender cannot be absolute, because nature has already defied this. The assumption that it is absolute is demonstrably false.

Can we discriminate between this scenario and a scenario where a person identifies as another species? Yes. Has a human being ever expressed itself, on a genetic level, as a hybrid with another species? No. Is it possible to produce such a person? No. Therefore the situations are in no way the same, it is elementary to understand they aren't the same, and the question you've asked is stupid because it is based on a comparison that is meaningless and invalid.

Hope that explains it to your satisfaction.
 
2012-03-24 01:32:39 PM

Peekoo: hubiestubert: I like girls. I sometimes like to smack girls on the bottom with the flat of my hand in the moment.

What's with this? I've seen cumulatively in my entire life about 5-10 minutes of porn, and this always occurs. I can't figure out what men get from this. Can you enlighten me? This is a genuinely honest question.


Don't know, but I loves getting my ass smacked in the moment.
 
2012-03-24 01:32:54 PM

FarkinHostile: I guess I have no chance with Ghastly after this thread.


Always the bridesmaid, never the bride :(


I think it's always the bridesmaid, never the groom...
 
2012-03-24 01:33:47 PM

hubiestubert: For all the bagging on FarkinHostile, it boils down to not wanting to be lied to. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's not homophobic. That's not transphobic. That's just wanting good friends.

Good people don't start friendships by lying to them. It's not healthy.

That's not the way to start any relationship. Not a friendship. Not a romantic relationship. If you're afraid that someone might get violent with you, if you tell them the truth about yourself: DON'T DATE THAT MOTHERF*CKER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That's not a hard thing.
.


How do you know if a person is going to resort to violence until you get to know them? FarkinHostile seems to take the position you have to disclose your transgendered before you can judge how the person would react? Keep in mind that 86% of trans people report having been assaulted (PDF warning) at some point when disclosing their status and 12% have been assaulted more than 20 times for that reason.

While Farkinhostile may be a non violent person it isn't unsurprising that transgendered people are weary to tell people they born gender right away with how often they are victimized when they do.
 
2012-03-24 01:34:32 PM

Peekoo: hubiestubert: I like girls. I sometimes like to smack girls on the bottom with the flat of my hand in the moment.

What's with this? I've seen cumulatively in my entire life about 5-10 minutes of porn, and this always occurs. I can't figure out what men get from this. Can you enlighten me? This is a genuinely honest question.


It's a dominance move that makes the butt quiver fetchingly.

/according to male friends and Empowered.
 
2012-03-24 01:35:59 PM

Dr. Mojo PhD: ExperianScaresCthulhu: I'm mad. I spent five pages scanning for someone -- ANYONE -- to realistically cover the topic of FarkinHostile bringing in photos of otherkin, people who really do believe that they were born the wrong species, instead of dismissing it being brought up out of hand.................... or outright ignoring it in order to pull some faux-civil-rights-outrage bullshiat.

Furries are met with disgust here. It's acceptable. It's expected. Why?

To actually answer your question as to how we discriminate between the two, it's (unsurprisingly) incredibly simple. Do human beings normally fall into one of two genders? Yes. Do human beings sometimes express novel, norm-defying structures? Yes. Therefore logic dictates that gender cannot be absolute, because nature has already defied this. The assumption that it is absolute is demonstrably false.

Can we discriminate between this scenario and a scenario where a person identifies as another species? Yes. Has a human being ever expressed itself, on a genetic level, as a hybrid with another species? No. Is it possible to produce such a person? No. Therefore the situations are in no way the same, it is elementary to understand they aren't the same, and the question you've asked is stupid because it is based on a comparison that is meaningless and invalid.

Hope that explains it to your satisfaction.


But it has been stated over and over again that the biology doesn't matter, its all about what the person FEELS like that are. It's all about the identity, biology is secondary at best. Therefore, if one identifies as a women, that silly Y chromosome is meaningless. Therefore, if one identifies as a cat, that silly difference in genetics is meaningless, and that person is 100% cat. THIS is the logic that has been used to justify deceit.
 
2012-03-24 01:37:47 PM

Peekoo: hubiestubert: I like girls. I sometimes like to smack girls on the bottom with the flat of my hand in the moment.

What's with this? I've seen cumulatively in my entire life about 5-10 minutes of porn, and this always occurs. I can't figure out what men get from this. Can you enlighten me? This is a genuinely honest question.


You don't say to your prospective partner, "No, spanking isn't in my vocabulary" and then give her such a smack as soon as you sink yourself in. And that is pretty much the issue. You don't have to ask "Hey, do you like a little slap and tickle?" outright, but it's an area to at least explore a bit before you get in the saddle. Just in case. Some gals really don't like it, some gals REALLY like it. Oddly enough, I tend to attract the ones who REALLY like it, but it's always a good idea to feel things out ahead of time, just in case. It's polite, and Grandma raised me to be polite.
 
2012-03-24 01:39:21 PM

FarkinHostile: But it has been stated over and over again that the biology doesn't matter, its all about what the person FEELS like that are. It's all about the identity, biology is secondary at best. Therefore, if one identifies as a women, that silly Y chromosome is meaningless.

Nature

has demonstrated that the biological differences between gender is fluid. Nature has demonstrated that the biological differences between humans and other species is absolute. Not us. Go whine to God or the Big Bang if you have a problem with this.
 
2012-03-24 01:40:10 PM

KiplingKat872: Peekoo: hubiestubert: I like girls. I sometimes like to smack girls on the bottom with the flat of my hand in the moment.

What's with this? I've seen cumulatively in my entire life about 5-10 minutes of porn, and this always occurs. I can't figure out what men get from this. Can you enlighten me? This is a genuinely honest question.

It's a dominance move that makes the butt quiver fetchingly.

/according to male friends and Empowered.


Remember guys, if you don't wanna dominate your woman, you're probably teh ghey.
 
xcv
2012-03-24 01:45:56 PM
XCV's alpha version of the expanded English language ends the need for deception on part of the TG community and saves people like this contestant from hurt feelings

anawoman = XX phenotype person that dismisses her biological configuration.
anaman = XY phenotype male that dismisses his biological sex configuration.
anaconda = large snake, probably satisfied being a snake, not happy with bad rap snakes get from the bible.

If the contest was open to women and anamen it would have been acceptable for anaher to apply.
 
2012-03-24 01:46:13 PM

Ghastly: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Passing as trans is so last year now.


[a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 431x720]
I was passing before it became mainstream.


/you rock baby!


I hate you more and more I see you, Ghastly. Totally awful for teasing the disgusting trannys with your non-gender defining self. You should be ashamed! Get in my bedroom and think about what yer doing wrong.
 
2012-03-24 01:49:20 PM

Carth: How do you know if a person is going to resort to violence until you get to know them? FarkinHostile seems to take the position you have to disclose your transgendered before you can judge how the person would react? Keep in mind that 86% of trans people report having been assaulted (PDF warning) at some point when disclosing their status and 12% have been assaulted more than 20 times for that reason.

While Farkinhostile may be a non violent person it isn't unsurprising that transgendered people are weary to tell people they born gender right away with how often they are victimized when they do.


How often do you date folks that you don't trust? That's pretty much the issue. The question IS in the timing.

If I were dating someone, and they told me, after a few months, that they used to be a man, yes, I'd be upset.

Not because she used to be a dude--but because she lied to me for so long. Didn't trust me for so long. Assumed that I was a violent asshat--which, in fairness, being a former bouncer is something that I AM actually a little sensitive about.

Being transgendered doesn't preclude folks from making bad relationship calls. I understand that. I understand fear. I understand that there are some violent asshats out there. I don't understand why someone who is transgendered would date someone that they feel might go off on them if he found out that they were transgendered.

Then again, I have no idea why women stay with men who make them feel like sh*t about themselves either, so what the Hells do I know...
 
2012-03-24 01:49:27 PM

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Ghastly: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Passing as trans is so last year now.


[a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 431x720]
I was passing before it became mainstream.


/you rock baby!

I hate you more and more I see you, Ghastly. Totally awful for teasing the disgusting trannys with your non-gender defining self. You should be ashamed! Get in my bedroom and think about what yer doing wrong.


Woohoo! Hate sex is best sex!
 
2012-03-24 01:49:32 PM

Bagelox-99: KiplingKat872: Peekoo: hubiestubert: I like girls. I sometimes like to smack girls on the bottom with the flat of my hand in the moment.

What's with this? I've seen cumulatively in my entire life about 5-10 minutes of porn, and this always occurs. I can't figure out what men get from this. Can you enlighten me? This is a genuinely honest question.

It's a dominance move that makes the butt quiver fetchingly.

/according to male friends and Empowered.

Remember guys, if you don't wanna dominate your woman, you're probably teh ghey.


Actually, spanking doesn't do a darn thing for me, but so long as it isn't painful I don't mind it. So if it winds him up I just roll with it.
 
2012-03-24 01:51:06 PM

hubiestubert: For all the bagging on FarkinHostile, it boils down to not wanting to be lied to. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's not homophobic. That's not transphobic. That's just wanting good friends.

Good people don't start friendships by lying to them. It's not healthy.

That's not the way to start any relationship. Not a friendship. Not a romantic relationship. If you're afraid that someone might get violent with you, if you tell them the truth about yourself: DON'T DATE THAT MOTHERF*CKER IN THE FIRST PLACE.


Transgendered people do actually believe themselves to be the gender that they represent themselves to be. As such, it's not a "lie" in the sense that the term is normally understood.

You could argue that it's a "lie by omission", of course, but that's a much weaker standard that could apply to any number of details. There would have been a period in US history where, say, people finding out that you had some nonwhite ancestry from four generations prior could have resulted in some unpleasant things happening to you - and possibly even more so if some nutjob you interacted with decided that you "lied by omission" because you didn't mention that detail to him.

There are several ways that this state of affairs could be dealt with. One "solution" has already been proposed in this thread - the people "lying by omission" should simply stop doing that, they should be completely "honest" about their histories with the people they interact with, and they should simply watch out who they hang out with etc. etc. I don't consider this to be a particularly good option, since it will only result in the already-stigmatized group having to become even more insular and disconnected from society in order to protect themselves, all the while providing soft validation for the people that assault them by promoting the notion that they simply had it coming for daring to involve themselves in society and expecting to be treated with a modicum of respect.

This last point is particularly key, since much of the violence directed towards these people isn't the result of "lies of omission" at all, but rather, carried out by violent bigots who actively seek out confrontations with such people in order to do them harm. My proposed solution, therefore, would be to embark upon a society-wide campaign of de-stigmatization. Instead of shaming the transgendered by validating the irrationality of those bigoted against them, you shame the bigots themselves, and you don't stop shaming them until the fact that a person is transgendered is considered as trivial a detail as the fact that he or she had black ancestors.
 
2012-03-24 01:51:22 PM

Dr. Mojo PhD: Nature has demonstrated that the biological differences between gender is fluid. Nature has demonstrated that the biological differences between humans and other species is absolute. Not us. Go whine to God or the Big Bang if you have a problem with th



So...why does it take radical surgery and years of hormonal treatment to correct gender in these people? That's nature? I'm pretty sure Nature doesn't require over a year of psychiatric evaluation before one is a cat.

Also, I'm pretty sure that we share...what? Over 98%? of the genetics of our simian relatives, so absolute is a strong word to use.

Where is the line? How many genes shared makes one a "whatever"?

Hmmm...I wonder if some higher intelligence animals think they are the wrong gender? If this is a natural occurrence, like animal homosexuality, then the answer must be yes.
 
2012-03-24 01:51:34 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-03-24 01:52:50 PM
images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2012-03-24 01:53:44 PM

KiplingKat872: Actually, spanking doesn't do a darn thing for me, but so long as it isn't painful I don't mind it. So if it winds him up I just roll with it.


Some women enjoy the sensation of pain (to varying degrees), especially because sexual excitement acts as a painkiller. I like when a woman sinks her teeth into my shoulders during sex, but if some broad just came up to me on the street and bit me I'd be pretty pissed off.

Of course, we frequently see pain intermingled with sex -- it's nothing new or novel:
i.imgur.com
 
2012-03-24 01:53:56 PM
Okay, let's take the question to the next level...

She's taken hormones and had surgery to change her gender.

If we get to the point where you can have gene therapy to actually change your chromosomes, and actually 'be' female, including reproductively, will people finally be able to get over the ick factor?

Would I hit it? I don't know, for either case. I could be friends with someone in that case, and if I was friends with them, maybe I could get past it. Don't know.
 
2012-03-24 01:54:55 PM

Biological Ali: hubiestubert: For all the bagging on FarkinHostile, it boils down to not wanting to be lied to. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's not homophobic. That's not transphobic. That's just wanting good friends.

Good people don't start friendships by lying to them. It's not healthy.

That's not the way to start any relationship. Not a friendship. Not a romantic relationship. If you're afraid that someone might get violent with you, if you tell them the truth about yourself: DON'T DATE THAT MOTHERF*CKER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Transgendered people do actually believe themselves to be the gender that they represent themselves to be. As such, it's not a "lie" in the sense that the term is normally understood.

You could argue that it's a "lie by omission", of course, but that's a much weaker standard that could apply to any number of details. There would have been a period in US history where, say, people finding out that you had some nonwhite ancestry from four generations prior could have resulted in some unpleasant things happening to you - and possibly even more so if some nutjob you interacted with decided that you "lied by omission" because you didn't mention that detail to him.

There are several ways that this state of affairs could be dealt with. One "solution" has already been proposed in this thread - the people "lying by omission" should simply stop doing that, they should be completely "honest" about their histories with the people they interact with, and they should simply watch out who they hang out with etc. etc. I don't consider this to be a particularly good option, since it will only result in the already-stigmatized group having to become even more insular and disconnected from society in order to protect themselves, all the while providing soft validation for the people that assault them by promoting the notion that they simply had it coming for daring to involve themselves in society and expecting to be treated with a modicum of respect.

This last point is particularly key, since much of the violence directed towards these people isn't the result of "lies of omission" at all, but rather, carried out by violent bigots who actively seek out confrontations with such people in order to do them harm. My proposed solution, therefore, would be to embark upon a society-wide campaign of de-stigmatization. Instead of shaming the transgendered by validating the irrationality of those bigoted against them, you shame the bigots themselves, and you don't stop shaming them until the fact that a person is transgendered is considered as trivial a detail as the fact that he or she had black ancestors.


*applause* Well said!
 
2012-03-24 01:55:05 PM
At my age, I would hit that and be happy that it let me.
 
2012-03-24 01:55:51 PM

Biological Ali: hubiestubert: For all the bagging on FarkinHostile, it boils down to not wanting to be lied to. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's not homophobic. That's not transphobic. That's just wanting good friends.

Good people don't start friendships by lying to them. It's not healthy.

That's not the way to start any relationship. Not a friendship. Not a romantic relationship. If you're afraid that someone might get violent with you, if you tell them the truth about yourself: DON'T DATE THAT MOTHERF*CKER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Transgendered people do actually believe themselves to be the gender that they represent themselves to be. As such, it's not a "lie" in the sense that the term is normally understood.

You could argue that it's a "lie by omission", of course, but that's a much weaker standard that could apply to any number of details. There would have been a period in US history where, say, people finding out that you had some nonwhite ancestry from four generations prior could have resulted in some unpleasant things happening to you - and possibly even more so if some nutjob you interacted with decided that you "lied by omission" because you didn't mention that detail to him.

There are several ways that this state of affairs could be dealt with. One "solution" has already been proposed in this thread - the people "lying by omission" should simply stop doing that, they should be completely "honest" about their histories with the people they interact with, and they should simply watch out who they hang out with etc. etc. I don't consider this to be a particularly good option, since it will only result in the already-stigmatized group having to become even more insular and disconnected from society in order to protect themselves, all the while providing soft validation for the people that assault them by promoting the notion that they simply had it coming for daring to involve themselves in society and expecting to be treated with a modicum of respect.

This last point i ...


Great points, and good post.
 
2012-03-24 01:58:34 PM

Dr. Mojo PhD: FarkinHostile: But it has been stated over and over again that the biology doesn't matter, its all about what the person FEELS like that are. It's all about the identity, biology is secondary at best. Therefore, if one identifies as a women, that silly Y chromosome is meaningless.

Nature has demonstrated that the biological differences between gender is fluid. Nature has demonstrated that the biological differences between humans and other species is absolute. Not us. Go whine to God or the Big Bang if you have a problem with this.


Well, how? Is this 'absolute' some scopes monkey trial/only blacks are descended from chimps stuff at the end of the day? My understanding is that the metamorphoses human babies go through from conception to exiting the pussy mimics early forms of non-human life. Like this shiat: Anatomical clues to human evolution from fish:

"The early human embryo looks very similar to the embryo of any other mammal, bird or amphibian - all of which have evolved from fish.

Your eyes start out on the sides of your head, but then move to the middle.

The top lip along with the jaw and palate started life as gill-like structures on your neck. Your nostrils and the middle part of your lip come down from the top of your head.

There is no trace of a scar; the plates of tissue and muscle fuse seamlessly. But there is, however, a little remnant of all this activity in the middle of your top lip - your philtrum."


Then again, I believe in racial memory, which has no basis in science, right? Except for the bit about humanity's instinctual fear of snakes. I see no reason why someone can't believe they have the soul of a bird or that they were a honeybee in a previous lifetime.

If you truly are what you believe you are, there should be room for otherkin along with transfolk, and as soon as science, plastic surgery and hormone treatments are able to do for otherkin what is currently able to be done for transfolk, we'll see more acceptance instead of 'that's ridiculous' about it -- right?
 
2012-03-24 01:59:15 PM

Dr. Mojo PhD: KiplingKat872: Actually, spanking doesn't do a darn thing for me, but so long as it isn't painful I don't mind it. So if it winds him up I just roll with it.

Some women enjoy the sensation of pain (to varying degrees), especially because sexual excitement acts as a painkiller. I like when a woman sinks her teeth into my shoulders during sex, but if some broad just came up to me on the street and bit me I'd be pretty pissed off.

Of course, we frequently see pain intermingled with sex -- it's nothing new or novel:


Its a romatic notion to be sure, but most species do not engage in sex for recreation. So the pain is not something they actively seek out.

But false comparison aside, everyone has whatever winds them up and that's cool so long as it is with a consenting adult.
 
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