FarkinHostile: You really think so? It's funny, because I am not against TG people at all and I think that so far almost everyone arguing against me look like raving maniacs.

I am starting to believe fark has been populated with paid trolls to force political correctness on people who try and use common sense, in the past few years it seems people are getting dumber while PC talk rises.

bobbette: Kar98: Carth: FarkinHostile:

I'm surprised I haven't been called a Troll yet.

You're not a troll. Just a bigot like the people in the 60s who wanted light skinned black people to be registered so they wouldn't be confused and treated as white. It must be really hard for you to be cissexual I'm sure you've suffered for it.

"Cissexual"? You gotta be farking shiatting me. Try "normal".

Oh get over it. I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.

Nobody is "normal" anyways.

This statement proves what I am saying using all the calling cards of PC bullshiat, yes there is a normal even if you're just looking at it on an animal level. Behaviour outside what a species normally does is considered abnormal behaviour so that dictates there is a normal, so you are wrong saying there is nothing considered normal.

Kar98: but I still maintain that /they/ are the ones with the problem, and it doesn't help /their/ cause to be assholes about it.


I see, and how long have you been "maintaining" this?

ReverendJasen: FarkinHostile: That point made, TG people, why must you insist you are something you truly are not?

I usually like your opinion of things, but this is ridiculous.


Come on, it's not ridiculous. It's actually quite a "normal" opinion.


Changing gender is not anything like changing species. Just as when we point and laugh at fundies who try to compare gay marriage to marrying turtles.

The point is, we have the medical technology to reassign a person's gender in all outward physical aspects. And if that matches their mental/emotional state of being, what's the farking difference?

Lets start with the inability to have children. And totally knowing about it. Then there are other physical differences that matter. Would it be fair to allow a TG MAN to compete in an womans athletic competition? Of course not, so it matters in that aspect as well.


If it would take x-rays and a medical exam to determine they are NOT that gender, then who should care?
They're living their lives as the gender/sex that their brain tells them they should be. This is a good thing for them, and for anyone in their lives. Let's just be farking happy about that.

I am "happy" for them, I just don't agree that a TG man is 100% female, and believe any TG person who lies about it, whither it be to enter a beauty pageant, an athletic completion, or a romantic relationship is a liar.

It is no one else business, I agree.

I still haven't found any post where I express hate or anything that can be construed as hostility toward TG people.

bobbette: Oh get over it. I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.

It's easy to embrace when it carries no negative connotation and is "normal."
That's like saying "I don't care if people call me straight."

Kar98: Look, I've got no problem with anybody, be they gay or trans or convertible or whatever, because I think there should be more love in the world, not less, and it has been a long time that I missed a beat out of surprise, but I still maintain that /they/ are the ones with the problem, and it doesn't help /their/ cause to be assholes about it.

This has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Anyways, it's just a word coined to describe "people who are not trans" because saying "people who are not trans" all the time gets annoying and the word makes sense. I don't see how it's an asshole thing to have a word for that. I am perfectly fine with it and describing myself with it. It's like using "caucasian" for white people. I don't see why you even care.

GoldSpider: Dr. Mojo PhD: But even then, the rest of the body exists to serve the brain.

Except the brain doesn't need much of the body, and in fact, the brain exists to serve the entire body.

A motorist doesn't need a car with a catalytic converter, or a wankel engine over a reciprocating piston design, or even one with four wheels over, say, two or three. But when any of those fail on vehicles that do have them, the responsible driver will get them fixed. I wouldn't make an argument from that that drivers exist to serve their cars.

ReverendJasen: bobbette: Oh get over it. I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.

It's easy to embrace when it carries no negative connotation and is "normal."
That's like saying "I don't care if people call me straight."

Wouldn't it be more like a person objecting to being called heterosexual and demanding to be called 'normal'?

I personally don't have a issue with TG people per say, but if i met one that was interested in me in a romantic way, i would expect them to be up front about the sex change. I'm a hetro male, and i have 0 desire to sleep with guys. And yes, call me a bigot, or whatever, i don't care, but it would still be in my mind that this was a "guy" who had a sex change. Close minded? Perhaps, but it's MY mind, and i prefer not to sleep with guys, or stick my penis in some dude's inside out cock. And also, i would like to have children of my own, not adopted, but MY OWN, and a TG person cant give me that.

Not hating on them at all...just saying it wouldn't work for me. Hate all you want, I don't care.

Bagelox-99: Plus trannys have this weird ramp-like thing in their vajaydicks. It's the only way they can make a vajayjay out of a dick. I've seen pix.

It's called a gooch, kind sir.

steamingpile: Behaviour outside what a species normally does

This is human behaviour. Variance in gender identities has existed throughout human history. And if you're going "species" wide you're going to have to consider that there are multiple human cultures where there are more genders than the male-female binary.

bobbette: Kar98: Look, I've got no problem with anybody, be they gay or trans or convertible or whatever, because I think there should be more love in the world, not less, and it has been a long time that I missed a beat out of surprise, but I still maintain that /they/ are the ones with the problem, and it doesn't help /their/ cause to be assholes about it.

This has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Anyways, it's just a word coined to describe "people who are not trans" because saying "people who are not trans" all the time gets annoying and the word makes sense. I don't see how it's an asshole thing to have a word for that. I am perfectly fine with it and describing myself with it. It's like using "caucasian" for white people. I don't see why you even care.

So you are saying since he's now a woman suddenly she's a lesbian?

Sexual orientation does have a little to do with it, since if you're choosing to be a woman most likely its partly because you feel attracted to men.

FarkinHostile:
Lets start with the inability to have children. And totally knowing about it.

So, let's say you were dating a woman who was sterile, say because of a past medical condition. If she doesn't tell you her entire medical history on the first date, then you "would consider it a MAJOR lie to find out the person I had been dating was unable to bear children, and [you] hate liars"?

Then there are other physical differences that matter. Would it be fair to allow a TG MAN to compete in an womans athletic competition? Of course not, so it matters in that aspect as well.

Doesn't that really depend on the competition and the transgendered person? For example, if they were 5'4" and 110 pounds, then we probably are not very concerned about them dominating in women's basketball.
Furthermore, unless I've pegged you wrong (ha!), you're a man... so why, exactly, are you telling women what they should find fair in their competitions? Wouldn't it be better to ask whether they'd accept any particular transgender person? Otherwise, it comes off as concern trolling.

I am "happy" for them, I just don't agree that a TG man is 100% female, and believe any TG person who lies about it, whither it be to enter a beauty pageant, an athletic completion, or a romantic relationship is a liar.

Leaving aside the rest of the discussion for a second, let's think about this pragmatically:
1) not implying that you are violent, but as you know, many people are violent and hostile to transgender people. They're some of the biggest targets for gay-bashing.
2) the majority of domestic abuse is from intimate partners.
3) due to the above, isn't it safer for a transgender person to hide their medical history from a potential dating partner until such time as they trust that the revelation won't be greeted with violence?

In fact, if a transgender person didn't lie and got beat up as a result, wouldn't many people say that she deserved it for "shoving her past in the other person's face"?

PBPeyronie: Farkinhostile is not a bigot.

Consider the issue decided, and not to be discussed further. That is all.

You sure got some balls. Showing up here trying to put out a flame war. Who do you think you are?

Now, let's get back to discussing whether or not this chick is bangable.

FarkinHostile: I still haven't found any post where I express hate or anything that can be construed as hostility toward TG people.

For the record, I didn't say you were hateful.
I just think you are taking a somewhat strict approach in definition. Yes, they don't have a uterus. But if they don't lie about that, it shouldn't matter. For instance, the girl in this article, I would personally consider to be a woman, and I'd treat her that way. She/he is not trying to be a lizard or a cat.

animal900: The other night the wife and I were watching the porn awards episode of Party Down. One of the very attractive porn stars mentioned that she has a babboon heart. I asked the wife if she would bang someone who had a babboon's heart, and after some humming and hawing she said 'yes'. When she asked me the same question, my answer was a definite 'no'. So if you're suggesting that I would have sex with a dude who had an artificial vagina installed, I'm fairly confident that you're wrong.

/csb


Um, wtf. Why wouldn't you have sex with someone with a babboon heart?

Difficulty: Answer without saying 'Jesus'.

glassbottomboatcaptain: Bagelox-99: Plus trannys have this weird ramp-like thing in their vajaydicks. It's the only way they can make a vajayjay out of a dick. I've seen pix.

It's called a gooch, kind sir.

Goochy goochy goo is what comes out when you tickle it.

Bit'O'Gristle: I personally don't have a issue with TG people per say, but if i met one that was interested in me in a romantic way, i would expect them to be up front about the sex change. I'm a hetro male, and i have 0 desire to sleep with guys. And yes, call me a bigot, or whatever, i don't care, but it would still be in my mind that this was a "guy" who had a sex change. Close minded? Perhaps, but it's MY mind, and i prefer not to sleep with guys, or stick my penis in some dude's inside out cock. And also, i would like to have children of my own, not adopted, but MY OWN, and a TG person cant give me that.

Not hating on them at all...just saying it wouldn't work for me. Hate all you want, I don't care.

If a dating partner were born with both or ambiguous sexual organs and the doctors had to make a choice when would you expect to know? First date? Before being intimate? Before starting a long term relationship? Does it even matter? If a potential mate were sterile would you want to know before sleeping with them or would it not matter?

You damn right I would.

NO BABBIES!

Theaetetus: FarkinHostile:
Lets start with the inability to have children. And totally knowing about it.

So, let's say you were dating a woman who was sterile, say because of a past medical condition. If she doesn't tell you her entire medical history on the first date, then you "would consider it a MAJOR lie to find out the person I had been dating was unable to bear children, and [you] hate liars"?

Then there are other physical differences that matter. Would it be fair to allow a TG MAN to compete in an womans athletic competition? Of course not, so it matters in that aspect as well.

Doesn't that really depend on the competition and the transgendered person? For example, if they were 5'4" and 110 pounds, then we probably are not very concerned about them dominating in women's basketball.
Furthermore, unless I've pegged you wrong (ha!), you're a man... so why, exactly, are you telling women what they should find fair in their competitions? Wouldn't it be better to ask whether they'd accept any particular transgender person? Otherwise, it comes off as concern trolling.

I am "happy" for them, I just don't agree that a TG man is 100% female, and believe any TG person who lies about it, whither it be to enter a beauty pageant, an athletic completion, or a romantic relationship is a liar.

Leaving aside the rest of the discussion for a second, let's think about this pragmatically:
1) not implying that you are violent, but as you know, many people are violent and hostile to transgender people. They're some of the biggest targets for gay-bashing.
2) the majority of domestic abuse is from intimate partners.
3) due to the above, isn't it safer for a transgender person to hide their medical history from a potential dating partner until such time as they trust that the revelation won't be greeted with violence?

In fact, if a transgender person didn't lie and got beat up as a result, wouldn't many people say that she deserved it for "shoving her past in the other person's face"?

/That in fact is the only problem i would have (that would make me all kinda pissed.) Lets say you met a girl, and got along well..went back to the house..and had sex. After, she says...oh..btw...i used to be a guy. Ya..i would have issues with that, as im a hetro male, and i don't want to sleep with a guy. Not saying i would get all stabby or killy, but i would not be a happy camper, and at the very least, i would kick her ass out and never see her again. If they want a sex change, fine, i have 0 problem with this, but don't try to "fool" people and get them in bed. Some guys aren't known for their low tempers or judgement.

However, if a TG girl came up to me..and asked me out, and was honest about herself, i would politely say no thank you, im not interested. No need to get all punchy over someone giving you a compliment.

glassbottomboatcaptain: animal900: The other night the wife and I were watching the porn awards episode of Party Down. One of the very attractive porn stars mentioned that she has a babboon heart. I asked the wife if she would bang someone who had a babboon's heart, and after some humming and hawing she said 'yes'. When she asked me the same question, my answer was a definite 'no'. So if you're suggesting that I would have sex with a dude who had an artificial vagina installed, I'm fairly confident that you're wrong.

/csb


Um, wtf. Why wouldn't you have sex with someone with a babboon heart?

Difficulty: Answer without saying 'Jesus'.

Because with a baboon heart they can be uber'd.




bobbette: I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.


Serious question, what is this? I've never heard the term and I don't think it's something I should research from work.

Carth: Wouldn't it be more like a person objecting to being called heterosexual and demanding to be called 'normal'?

Perhaps, but they wouldn't be wrong. If you draw a normal distribution curve of sexuality or gender identity, hetero would be at the peak. It's not negative, it's just the most common.
Bigots have tried to confuse the words "normal" and "correct" when that's not appropriate. Normal just is what it is: the most common state.

Twin 40s: theflatline: she looks like the tranny street walkers you see throughout latin america.

Way to be genial and understanding to one of the most hated and ostracized groups of people in America.

She's an Eagles fan, too?

Carth: ReverendJasen: bobbette: Oh get over it. I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.

It's easy to embrace when it carries no negative connotation and is "normal."
That's like saying "I don't care if people call me straight."

Wouldn't it be more like a person objecting to being called heterosexual and demanding to be called 'normal'?

Yes, that's more accurate.

I think the poster was actually supporting my point that it is easy to readily agree to have a name to describe you, particularly when you privileged position. As a woman with two x chromosomes and a typical gender presentation I have no risk of having my gender identity questioned or denied or considered inauthentic. Acknowledging that there are different realities when it comes to gender identity and being inclusive in my language doesn't change my position. This is not some zero sum game of language.

MoronLessOff:

Serious question, what is this? I've never heard the term and I don't think it's something I should research from work.

Wikipedia article sfw (new window) it just means someone matches the gender they were born with. "Cis" is the opposite of trans in "latin".

It is like saying "heterosexual" instead of "not a homosexual"

kiwimoogle84: baufan2005: The lord doesn't like it why should we?

And talking snakes are Perfectly natural?


Of course. You just have to be able to understand them.

MoronLessOff: bobbette: I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.

Serious question, what is this? I've never heard the term and I don't think it's something I should research from work.

"Cis" as a prefix is the opposite of "trans". From wiki:
"Cis-" as a prefix of Latin origin, meaning "on the same side [as]" or "on this side [of]"

Thus, cisgender is the converse of transgender.

bobbette: Kar98: Look, I've got no problem with anybody, be they gay or trans or convertible or whatever, because I think there should be more love in the world, not less, and it has been a long time that I missed a beat out of surprise, but I still maintain that /they/ are the ones with the problem, and it doesn't help /their/ cause to be assholes about it.

This has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Anyways, it's just a word coined to describe "people who are not trans" because saying "people who are not trans" all the time gets annoying and the word makes sense. I don't see how it's an asshole thing to have a word for that. I am perfectly fine with it and describing myself with it. It's like using "caucasian" for white people. I don't see why you even care.

Because I've never even BEEN to the Caucasus?

Carth: Bit'O'Gristle: I personally don't have a issue with TG people per say, but if i met one that was interested in me in a romantic way, i would expect them to be up front about the sex change. I'm a hetro male, and i have 0 desire to sleep with guys. And yes, call me a bigot, or whatever, i don't care, but it would still be in my mind that this was a "guy" who had a sex change. Close minded? Perhaps, but it's MY mind, and i prefer not to sleep with guys, or stick my penis in some dude's inside out cock. And also, i would like to have children of my own, not adopted, but MY OWN, and a TG person cant give me that.

Not hating on them at all...just saying it wouldn't work for me. Hate all you want, I don't care.

If a dating partner were born with both or ambiguous sexual organs and the doctors had to make a choice when would you expect to know? First date? Before being intimate? Before starting a long term relationship? Does it even matter? If a potential mate were sterile would you want to know before sleeping with them or would it not matter?

/hmmm..interesting question. That scenario is a bit different than an adult choosing to be the opposite sex IMO. I would think that in your question, my answer would be...before being intimate. And if i "loved her", before she told me, I'm guessing in that situation it wouldn't make allot of difference to me, as she had both female and male organs to begin with, and they chose the more dominant one, based on physiology, and the person's leaning to one side or the other. (i believe that they wait now for a bit to see which way the kid is going to lean to, male for female. This is, IMO a much different situation than a guy who is 25 getting changed to a woman. Not hating..just my 2 cents.

Theaetetus:
So, let's say you were dating a woman who was sterile, say because of a past medical condition. If she doesn't tell you her entire medical history on the first date,

Bad analogy.

And to answer the question, perhaps. If the topic of children came up (which it often does, even on a first date), and she doesn't disclose it, Yes.


Doesn't that really depend on the competition and the transgendered person?

No. There are very clear regulations on the subject, and "we" don't care one bit about the rare exceptions to the rule.

Furthermore, unless I've pegged you wrong (ha!), you're a man... so why, exactly, are you telling women what they should find fair in their competitions? Wouldn't it be better to ask whether they'd accept any particular transgender person? Otherwise, it comes off as concern trolling.

No, it comes off as showing that there most certainly are differences between the sexes that MATTER. As to the specifics, it is somewhat inconsequential to the point that there ARE differences, and they DO matter.

That was the point.


Leaving aside the rest of the discussion for a second, let's think about this pragmatically:
1) not implying that you are violent, but as you know, many people are violent and hostile to transgender people. They're some of the biggest targets for gay-bashing.
2) the majority of domestic abuse is from intimate partners.
3) due to the above, isn't it safer for a transgender person to hide their medical history from a potential dating partner until such time as they trust that the revelation won't be greeted with violence?

There is NEVER a reason to lie. If you can't trust a potential dating partner not to kick the shiat out of you for whatever, you shouldn't be out on a date with them. I mean really, "I lied to my date so they would beat me up." Really?


In fact, if a transgender person didn't lie and got beat up as a result, wouldn't many people say that she deserved it for "shoving her past in the other person's face"?

I really have problems believing that one.

There are plenty of places TG people to meet dating partners who won't have a problem with them. Appealing to Pity is not a valid reason to be deceitful, it is a logical fallacy.

Dr. Mojo PhD: GoldSpider: Dr. Mojo PhD: But even then, the rest of the body exists to serve the brain.

Except the brain doesn't need much of the body, and in fact, the brain exists to serve the entire body.

A motorist doesn't need a car with a catalytic converter, or a wankel engine over a reciprocating piston design, or even one with four wheels over, say, two or three. But when any of those fail on vehicles that do have them, the responsible driver will get them fixed. I wouldn't make an argument from that that drivers exist to serve their cars.

I am a bit surprised by most of your posts in this thread, which seem Newtonian, or classical, or mechanistic, or 18th Century. But I'm not a PhD in anything and have little experience with psychology or biology beyond a few college courses.

I don't think we can take a brain and put it alive in a box even in the best science fiction sense and expect it to act like a normal person, just bodyless.

I think that if we took you, with all respect, and with no malice intended, and shortened your limbs by just 1/2 an inch (or even 5 inches), or placed your brain in a different body, well frankly, I think your brain, would become disturbed. Disturbed in the mental illness sense, not just in the I am outraged sense.

If we took your brain, assuming you are male, and put it in a female body, I think you would also become disturbed. Different kinethesia, different hormones (do hormones cross the blood brain barrier?), different nerves reporting in that never reported in before.

If you damage the part of a cat's brain responsible for whisker sensation, IIRC, other parts of its brain will try and take over that functionality.

Your brain in a different body would probably try to do likewise, literally physically changing in response to different length limbs, new organs, different hormones, etc.

Throughout this, I suspect you would not be the same Dr. Mojo PhD at all.

YOU CAN'T TELL ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE, SUBBY

Twin 40s: theflatline: she looks like the tranny street walkers you see throughout latin america.

Way to be genial and understanding to one of the most hated and ostracized groups of people in America.

Trannys aren't people. They're freaks of nature.

kiwimoogle84: Yes I'd fark someone with a baboon heart.

I'll do one better. I'd fark just a baboon heart. Right in the ventricle.

abhorrent1: [happolatismiscellany.files.wordpress.com image 325x475]

/sure why not

That picture explains it all. Why yes, yes I would. Wouldn't even hesitate if I knew she had been a he. That person is hotter than anyone I've slept with.

steamingpile:

So you are saying since he's now a woman suddenly she's a lesbian?

Sexual orientation does have a little to do with it, since if you're choosing to be a woman most likely its partly because you feel attracted to men.

Definitely, she could be a lesbian! (That would be awesome. We don't know her sexual orientation, though.) People can be trans and attracted to women too. I know a few trans lesbians. And gay trans men.

The people you find attractive is something different from your gender identity. A person who identifies as a woman and likes women only is a lesbian, for example, and that doesn't mean she wants to be a man. Although, people who are transgendered and attracted to the opposite sex may have partners considered "same-sex" or identify as gay before they transition.

RoyBatty: If we took your brain, assuming you are male, and put it in a female body, I think you would also become disturbed.

You spelled "Aroused" wrong.

Theaetetus: MoronLessOff: bobbette: I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.

Serious question, what is this? I've never heard the term and I don't think it's something I should research from work.

"Cis" as a prefix is the opposite of "trans". From wiki:
"Cis-" as a prefix of Latin origin, meaning "on the same side [as]" or "on this side [of]"

Thus, cisgender is the converse of transgender.

So, someone who does not question their natural born physical gender?
I have decided that cisgender is a pretentious word

ima turkey: Twin 40s: theflatline: she looks like the tranny street walkers you see throughout latin america.

Way to be genial and understanding to one of the most hated and ostracized groups of people in America.

Trannys aren't people. They're freaks of nature.

Bigots aren't people. They're worthless pieces of sh*t. And the worst part of it is, unlike a trans person, they chose to be what they are.

Well IMO once you get over the biological imperative to reproduce then it really doesn't matter who you have sex with as long as you are enjoying yourself. The whole OMG gotta have crotchfruit NAOW!!!! thing is great when you are younger but as you get past that it goes to who you get along with and enjoy being with and not so much what sex they were born.

FarkinHostile: Theaetetus:
Leaving aside the rest of the discussion for a second, let's think about this pragmatically:
1) not implying that you are violent, but as you know, many people are violent and hostile to transgender people. They're some of the biggest targets for gay-bashing.
2) the majority of domestic abuse is from intimate partners.
3) due to the above, isn't it safer for a transgender person to hide their medical history from a potential dating partner until such time as they trust that the revelation won't be greeted with violence?

There is NEVER a reason to lie. If you can't trust a potential dating partner not to kick the shiat out of you for whatever, you shouldn't be out on a date with them. I mean really, "I lied to my date so they would beat me up." Really?

So, you have no sympathy for people who are assaulted on a first date, because, in your opinion, they shouldn't have been on that first date at all? Is that realistic? Aren't you essentially saying that people should know their date before they know their date?

In fact, if a transgender person didn't lie and got beat up as a result, wouldn't many people say that she deserved it for "shoving her past in the other person's face"?

I really have problems believing that one.

There are plenty of places TG people to meet dating partners who won't have a problem with them. Appealing to Pity is not a valid reason to be deceitful, it is a logical fallacy..

But a typical bar or club? Or are you saying that transgender people shouldn't go to meet people in common places like those?

For every hating on FarkinHostile for what you believe to be his bigotry, in a thread, have you considered taking active opposition to somewhere in meatspace where it might actually do some good?

I am of course referring to the Michigan Womyn's festival which in 2012, according to the wiki, is still not allowing transsexuals or the transgendered in?

When you denounce FarkinHostile as a bigot are you acknowledging that the views he has expressed are truly views that the majority of people have held until quite recently, and may still hold, and that they are views that many feminists still hold, and that almost certainly, are views you once held yourself, except due to your own privileged experience over FarkinHostile of being educated out of them?

SwissArmyGnome: theflatline: Twin 40s: theflatline: she looks like the tranny street walkers you see throughout latin america.

Way to be genial and understanding to one of the most hated and ostracized groups of people in America.

Actually i do not hate on the transgendered, I have a cousin who got the operation years ago, and he is pretty well adjusted.

But you're using the wrong pronouns, which seems rather disrespectful. Maybe the "look at me" phase was just to get the slower people like you to catch on.

And before someone starts in about chromosomes or mutilated genitals, please note that there is a distinct difference between sex and gender. Your genitals or chromosomes are nobody elses damn business. Pronouns and societal norms need to be based on gender, not sex. One is public, the other is private. Why is this so hard for some people?

It's difficult because we have the general expectation that one leads the other, and when people step out of the binary pattern of xx vagina woman and xy penis man, it gets weird. There are XX "men" with vaginas, XX "women" with penises, XY "women" with penises, and XY "women" with vaginas". There's also XXY's. Throw in the fact that personal pronouns are limited to "he" and "she" and people start getting really sensitive about the words they self-identify by being...broadened to include varieties of humanity they would not claim fellowship with.

What I've learned from getting yelled at in past fark debates on this is that the only way to win is to not play. Men and women People are completely free to call themselves WHATEVER they want, to modify their bodies in WHATEVER way they like, and they shouldn't be judged differently than normal people for it. It's apparently still ok to, as an individual, be discriminating about which variety of homo sapien you're sexually attracted to, thankfully. I'll take XX females with vaginas, and to the rest of them, WHATEVER MAKES YOU HAPPY. But please forgive me if I slip up and don't use the personal pronoun you happen to identify by (today).

//I believe I've finally become enlightened on this issue.
//Or i just finally have a politically correct and deeply cynical understanding of its pitfalls

bobbette: Bigots aren't people. They're worthless pieces of sh*t. And the worst part of it is, unlike a trans person, they chose to be what they are.

You sound like a hater, intolerant of other peoples views on the subject.