Twin 40s: theflatline: she looks like the tranny street walkers you see throughout latin america.

Way to be genial and understanding to one of the most hated and ostracized groups of people in America.

They are not hated, maybe misunderstood but not hated. Most people will look at them like a dog who hears a strange sound when they find out, its more of a curiosity than hated.

just my two cents......

i once dated a transgender person for several years.
it was one of the best relationships i have ever had.

i believe that this person is a "female" and should be allowed in the contest.
it is too bad she lied on the application and gave the contest a reason to exclude her.

and YES...i sure would!

fist of god........

FarkinHostile: vile and disgusting transphobic comments

How convenient that I already had you flagged as "trans hater". Welcome to my ignore list. I don't always ignore people who hate on transgendered people... but when I do... it's because bigots like you are not even worth engaging with.

Mouser: A person who thinks they're in the wrong sex of body has a healthy body and a damaged mind. Shouldn't they be repairing their mind rather than damaging their body in an attempt to make the two fit together?

That's kind of how I see it as well. The whole gender-reassignment process and all of the physical trauma that comes with it seems a rather extreme way to avoid the stigma of being labeled as having a "mental disorder".

FarkinHostile: Here we go with the "Why do you care so much?" stuff. The reason? TFA. It's the topic of the discussion. That's what we do here, discuss/debate topics. Been on a few of these threads and it always comes down to some TG person INSISTING they are 100% female and I am a bigot if I disagree. Well, their psychological issue is not my problem, and I will not pretend I agree with them just to please them. They are 100% human, no more, no less. They deserve all rights and acceptance as people. They are not their desired sex, no matter how many operations they have. It doesn't make what I consider myself, no more than that woman who considers herself a cat.

That is how I feel about it. Agree of disagree, but I would consider it a MAJOR lie to find out the person I had been dating was born a male, and I hate liars. It seems that TG people do not consider it deceitful, but many of us do, and this will not help them to gain acceptance.

It must be hard to be a cis white male. It is hard to live with all that privilege you've grow up with. How rude of those transgendered people to challenge it.

MonkeyAngst: It sounds a great deal like what you truly despise is anyone who thinks differently than your particular worldview.

Please. One of my favorite quotes is "I never learned anything from a man I agreed with."

So now I'm a bigot, closed minded, a preachy church type and apparently I'm all upset because I don't consider a TG Man to be 100% female.

Jesus wept.

Do they remove the prostate? If not, I bet she likes it up the butt.

FarkinHostile: This is a real lizard:

[img.photobucket.com image 545x799]

This is a real cat:

[img.photobucket.com image 300x246]

Another real cat:

[img.photobucket.com image 477x355]


That point made, TG people, why must you insist you are something you truly are not? This is my only problem with TG people: this insistence that your psychological issue somehow trumps biology and what the rest of society defines as female, and that I am somehow a bigot if I don't agree with your fantasy/delusion. Fine, you think like a woman. Fine, you went and got radical surgery to resemble a woman. Fine, you live as a woman. You are NOT a woman, you are a Transgendered MAN, and nothing is going to change that. What is so terrible about accepting what you are? You are still a person, with every right every other human has, so why push what many of feel is deception and lying? THAT is my problem, the entire issue smacks of deceit to me, and I despise deceit.

Be up front about it and we would never have a problem. Hell, who knows, I might be willing to have a relationship with a TG man if they were open, honest, and totally hot. I doubt it, but I am open to consider the question if they look as good as that one does.

You would do much to help gain acceptance, IMNSHO, if the deception wasn't an issue.

A Dr.Keith Ablow fan?

bobbette: FarkinHostile: vile and disgusting transphobic comments

How convenient that I already had you flagged as "trans hater". Welcome to my ignore list. I don't always ignore people who hate on transgendered people... but when I do... it's because bigots like you are not even worth engaging with.

:)

Thank you for proving my point.

It really does say so much more about you than it does me.

Don't let that door hit ya in the ass on the way out, sweetheart.

FarkinHostile: This is a real lizard:

[img.photobucket.com image 545x799]

This is a real cat:

[img.photobucket.com image 300x246]

Another real cat:

[img.photobucket.com image 477x355]


That point made, TG people, why must you insist you are something you truly are not? This is my only problem with TG people: this insistence that your psychological issue somehow trumps biology and what the rest of society defines as female, and that I am somehow a bigot if I don't agree with your fantasy/delusion. Fine, you think like a woman. Fine, you went and got radical surgery to resemble a woman. Fine, you live as a woman. You are NOT a woman, you are a Transgendered MAN, and nothing is going to change that. What is so terrible about accepting what you are? You are still a person, with every right every other human has, so why push what many of feel is deception and lying? THAT is my problem, the entire issue smacks of deceit to me, and I despise deceit.

Be up front about it and we would never have a problem. Hell, who knows, I might be willing to have a relationship with a TG man if they were open, honest, and totally hot. I doubt it, but I am open to consider the question if they look as good as that one does.

You would do much to help gain acceptance, IMNSHO, if the deception wasn't an issue.

You know, I never understood why people give a flying rats ass. If the person says they're a woman, they're a woman. If they say they're a man, they're a man. If I have to ask them in the first place, I feel sorry for them. But I don't question whether or not they are who they say they are. If they're lying to me, why should I give a crap.

In this case there are rules, they were followed, and to the credit of all there was no bad blood. I am amazed at all the people in this thread who just INSIST that it is their goddamn business when it most obviously is not.

Yes, yes I would.

Twin 40s:
Way to be genial and understanding to one of the most hated and ostracized groups of people in America.

She's an atheist?

I must have missed that part in the article.

Skyknight: Twin 40s:
Way to be genial and understanding to one of the most hated and ostracized groups of people in America.

She's an atheist?

I must have missed that part in the article.

Would you want to believe in an all-powerful all-knowing god that made you with the wrong body?

FarkinHostile: I would consider it a MAJOR lie to find out the person I had been dating was born a male, and I hate liars. It seems that TG people do not consider it deceitful, but many of us do, and this will not help them to gain acceptance.

That's never going to happen, you sad sack of sh*t, because trans women can attract a better quality of men (or women) than someone whose hobby is posting extended rants on message boards about how they're lying about their gender identity by simply living it without going around town with a sign around their necks reading TRANS.

This always seems to come down to fears that a woman isn't "real". What are you afraid of, why do you need to insist so strongly that the lived experience of millions of people is a lie? Worried about catching the ghey if a woman you like actually has a Y chromosome? I think the cat girl is better adjusted than you.

FarkinHostile: MonkeyAngst: It sounds a great deal like what you truly despise is anyone who thinks differently than your particular worldview.

Please. One of my favorite quotes is "I never learned anything from a man I agreed with."

So now I'm a bigot, closed minded, a preachy church type and apparently I'm all upset because I don't consider a TG Man to be 100% female.

Jesus wept.

Well, you're here on Fark posting about how upset you are that TGs want to be called by whatever gender they've transited to, so... yeah.

The difference? The thing you JUST said? "I don't consider a TG man to be 100% female?" I agree with that. The sentiment "I just read an article about a transgender person, it's time to sit down and type a screed on Fark about how inaccurate the terms they use to describe themselves are!" however, is not something to which I can relate.

bobbette: FarkinHostile: I would consider it a MAJOR lie to find out the person I had been dating was born a male, and I hate liars. It seems that TG people do not consider it deceitful, but many of us do, and this will not help them to gain acceptance.

That's never going to happen, you sad sack of sh*t, because trans women can attract a better quality of men (or women) than someone whose hobby is posting extended rants on message boards about how they're lying about their gender identity by simply living it without going around town with a sign around their necks reading TRANS.

This always seems to come down to fears that a woman isn't "real". What are you afraid of, why do you need to insist so strongly that the lived experience of millions of people is a lie? Worried about catching the ghey if a woman you like actually has a Y chromosome? I think the cat girl is better adjusted than you.

Thought you had put me on ignore? Just can't quit me, can you? :)

(whistles) Honey, you need to stick to decaf. Your angry ranting at my honest opinion on this topic makes you look like a maniac. Seriously.

Mouser: Except that the mind is part of the body; the two can't be separated.

Sure it can. If you were to perform a whole-body transplant, assuming such a thing was feasible, the personality of the brain put into the different body would be present, the old body's personality would not go with it.

Mouser: A person who thinks they're in the wrong sex of body has a healthy body and a damaged mind. Shouldn't they be repairing their mind rather than damaging their body in an attempt to make the two fit together?

You can make two arguments here. The first argument is that the body and mind are wholly separate, and that the mind resides in the physical aspect of the body hosting it (using the brain), and that the psychological is wholly distinguishable from the neurological, and that while one may inhibit the other, they are discrete aspects of each person. The second argument you can make is that the psychological is indistinguishable from the neurological, and that the mind is nothing more than a synecdoche for the higher concept of a complicated organic network.

In the case of the first argument, the physical part of the organism is treated regardless. Even in simpler cases, we alter the physical aspect of the body -- say serotonin reuptake in the case of depression -- to treat the mental condition. In the case of the second argument, since any treatment would be prima facie physical, it is easier to alter simpler components with hormone treatments and surgery than it is to rewire a brain.

In either case, alteration of the external body to comply with the sex characteristics of the self-identified gender comes out as the optimal solution.

MonkeyAngst:

Well, you're here on Fark posting about how upset you are that TGs want to be called by whatever gender they've transited to, so... yeah.

So....just where did I say I was upset?

(crickets)

The difference? The thing you JUST said? "I don't consider a TG man to be 100% female?" I agree with that. The sentiment "I just read an article about a transgender person, it's time to sit down and type a screed on Fark about how inaccurate the terms they use to describe themselves are!" however, is not something to which I can relate.

You do realize we are on a Fark discussion thread, right? About how a TG man lied to get into a beauty pageant, right? So, somehow how TG people define themselves is not a relevant topic to bring up, eh?

I'm surprised I haven't been called a Troll yet.

traylor: "naturally born female"

So they ask the contestants whether they were born with c-section? That's weird.

No, they ask them if they were born on American soil of two parents that were citizens at the time of their birth.
Duhhhhh.

Dr. Mojo PhD: In either case, alteration of the external body to comply with the sex characteristics of the self-identified gender comes out as the optimal solution.

Would you support the development of a "fix" for the brain that, in the end, is much less invasive/traumatic than gender re-assignment surgery?

I imagine there would be a backlash to such a treatment similar to those in the deaf community opposed to cochlear implants.

And please don't interpret my questions as a judgment of transgender people; I'm a live-and-let-live kind of guy.

FarkinHostile:

I'm surprised I haven't been called a Troll yet.

You're not a troll. Just a bigot like the people in the 60s who wanted light skinned black people to be registered so they wouldn't be confused and treated as white. It must be really hard for you to be cissexual I'm sure you've suffered for it.

Carth: Just a bigot like the people in the 60s who wanted light skinned black people to be registered so they wouldn't be confused and treated as white.

Yes, you're right, it's exactly the same thing.

(rolls eyes)

FarkinHostile: You do realize we are on a Fark discussion thread, right? About how a TG man lied to get into a beauty pageant, right? So, somehow how TG people define themselves is not a relevant topic to bring up, eh?

Her deception was that she claimed on her registration form that she was born a female. That is -- I don't think anyone can honestly dispute -- a lie. Your assertion is that ALL TGs are liars, because they call themselves what, to your mind, they're not.

FarkinHostile: Carth: Just a bigot like the people in the 60s who wanted light skinned black people to be registered so they wouldn't be confused and treated as white.

Yes, you're right, it's exactly the same thing.

(rolls eyes)

As long as you keep posting I"m happy. The most you type the more it shows you can't be against transgendered people without coming across as a bigoted asshole. It is kind of like people who are against gay marriage the best argument is to just keep them talking.

Carth: FarkinHostile:

I'm surprised I haven't been called a Troll yet.

You're not a troll. Just a bigot like the people in the 60s who wanted light skinned black people to be registered so they wouldn't be confused and treated as white. It must be really hard for you to be cissexual I'm sure you've suffered for it.

"Cissexual"? You gotta be farking shiatting me. Try "normal".

GoldSpider: Would you support the development of a "fix" for the brain that, in the end, is much less invasive/traumatic than gender re-assignment surgery?

It depends on how we define "invasive".

If you mean a treatment that could, say, correct disorders in utero, removing the ability to ever have the dysmorphia in the first place, absolutely.

If you mean a treatment that would remove the disorder at the cost of abrogating the patient's volition as the only treatment available to transgendered people, then no. That's too much like thought policing to me.

If you mean a treatment that could do such a thing which would be presented optionally along side physical reassignment, then yes. Whatever gives people options for their course of treatment is always the best solution. There are people that just want to be comfortable in their own bodies, and should have that option presented to them -- are they suffering from a chronic dysmorphia, or are they genuinely in the wrong body? They need to distinguish that. Plus any such treatment would have broad applications for treating other dysmorphias, everything from penis anxiety in men to anorexia to anxiety about breast size in women.

That would, in the end, be pretty much be the best treatment ever. (L@@K H3R3!!! RON JEREMY'S ONE CRAZY TRICK TO BEING HAPPY WITH THE SIZE OF YOUR PENIS: TALK TO YOUR PSYCHIATRIST TODAY!)

What I got from this thread: TG people are VERY ANGRY about the penis (or vagina as the case may be)

Dr. Mojo PhD: If you mean a treatment that could do such a thing which would be presented optionally along side physical reassignment, then yes.

We're on the same page then.

Welcome to Fark, where even though both sides in the article are amicable, the thread blows up into a clusterfark.

As far as I'm concerned, your body, your choice, whether it's mutilation and hormones, or whether it's GoldSpider's theoretical brain treatment. However, if you do become a transsexual, yeah, it's something that should be disclosed in a relationship. Not on the first date, but more like a "before this relationship progresses further, there's something I got to tell you" moment.

MonkeyAngst: Her deception was that she claimed on her registration form that she was born a female. That is -- I don't think anyone can honestly dispute -- a lie. Your assertion is that ALL TGs are liars, because they call themselves what, to your mind, they're not.

Well, you misunderstand what I meant. I do not consider all TG persons "liars", just the ones who LIE about what they are, like the subject of the article. This brought to mind the seemingly popular belief that some TG people have that they are 100% what they feel like they are, and the insistence that unless I agree with that I am a bigot. Look at this thread for many examples of this already! Not once have I said anything that a reasonable person would consider to be "vile and disgusting", and been personally attacked and called names for daring to voice my honest opinion. (shrugs) Whatever, really. It is what it is, and frankly those people who are so upset about my different opinion that they name call and make crazy insinuations about me really need to sit down and think about how poorly they represent their side. You and Dr. Mojo PhD have been exceptions.

I would not hit it even if I didn't know it was a dude. I hate those weird looking plastic surgery faces.. yech.

And this is what happens when "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is repealed!!!

InfernalCatfish: However, if you do become a transsexual, yeah, it's something that should be disclosed in a relationship. Not on the first date, but more like a "before this relationship progresses further, there's something I got to tell you" moment.

BIGOT!

:)

Carth: As long as you keep posting I"m happy.

If you say so. I'm getting paid to do this so, if you're happy, I'm happy :)

The most you type the more it shows you can't be against transgendered people without coming across as a bigoted asshole.

You really think so? It's funny, because I am not against TG people at all and I think that so far almost everyone arguing against me look like raving maniacs.


It is kind of like people who are against gay marriage the best argument is to just keep them talking.

You really suck at analogies, BTW. Your attempt to paint me in a negative light by associating me with true bigotry is transparent and silly.

I would and I'd thank the lord afterwards.

/looks like a girl to me.

Kar98: Carth: FarkinHostile:

I'm surprised I haven't been called a Troll yet.

You're not a troll. Just a bigot like the people in the 60s who wanted light skinned black people to be registered so they wouldn't be confused and treated as white. It must be really hard for you to be cissexual I'm sure you've suffered for it.

"Cissexual"? You gotta be farking shiatting me. Try "normal".

Oh get over it. I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.

Nobody is "normal" anyways.

FarkinHostile: That point made, TG people, why must you insist you are something you truly are not?

I usually like your opinion of things, but this is ridiculous.
Changing gender is not anything like changing species. Just as when we point and laugh at fundies who try to compare gay marriage to marrying turtles.

The point is, we have the medical technology to reassign a person's gender in all outward physical aspects. And if that matches their mental/emotional state of being, what's the farking difference? If it would take x-rays and a medical exam to determine they are NOT that gender, then who should care?
They're living their lives as the gender/sex that their brain tells them they should be. This is a good thing for them, and for anyone in their lives. Let's just be farking happy about that.

Would I?



That is a hot chick.

doglover: I got nothing against TGs but the body is most certainly not just some lifeless hunk of meat under control of the all powerful mind. A simple tab of xanax before a plane ride or even just a simple punch in the face can teach you that the mind/body relationship is a two way street. Why do you think people drink?

You think Xanax and alcohol don't alter the physiological aspects of a person? Again, the simple thought experiment of a whole-body transplant cures one of this notion that the body is anything but a slave to the mind: Does the personality of the body take over the new brain, or does the personality stored in the brain take over the new body? The body is slaved to the brain and, by extension, the mind therein. It takes Xanax based on the mind's bidding. It does keg stands based on the mind's bidding. It exists to serve as a vehicle for the personality, from base instincts on up to philosophical thoughts and nothing more. It farks because the personality gets pleasure stimulus from attempting reproduction. Its diaphragm compresses and forces air through the throat to be shaped by vocal chords, tongue, and lips because the personality wants to spread its ideas. It is a slave, period.

At best you can make the argument that the physical organ, the brain, has a two-way street relationship with the personality it contains. But even then, the rest of the body exists to serve the brain. New heart or kidney? Same person. Arm or leg amputated? Same person. New brain? Different person.

Farkinhostile is not a bigot.

Consider the issue decided, and not to be discussed further. That is all.

Mini Ditka: Sinister 161: I would and I'd thank the lord afterwards.

/looks like a girl to me.

So you saying she doesn't look like a girl? Are your standards so high that you'd say no to here just cause she's had the plumbing changed.

If there are boobies to play with and she's pretty enough, I couldn't care less what gender she was born.

bobbette: Kar98: Carth: FarkinHostile:

I'm surprised I haven't been called a Troll yet.

You're not a troll. Just a bigot like the people in the 60s who wanted light skinned black people to be registered so they wouldn't be confused and treated as white. It must be really hard for you to be cissexual I'm sure you've suffered for it.

"Cissexual"? You gotta be farking shiatting me. Try "normal".

Oh get over it. I'm cisgendered and I have no problem being referred to as such.

Nobody is "normal" anyways.

Look, I've got no problem with anybody, be they gay or trans or convertible or whatever, because I think there should be more love in the world, not less, and it has been a long time that I missed a beat out of surprise, but I still maintain that /they/ are the ones with the problem, and it doesn't help /their/ cause to be assholes about it.

Dr. Mojo PhD: But even then, the rest of the body exists to serve the brain.

Except the brain doesn't need much of the body, and in fact, the brain exists to serve the entire body.

bah...looks good to me.

jaspyrnyte: Bit'O'Gristle: Ya...um...no..i wouldn't. And yes..secondly, just because they cut off your man bits, and give you boobies, doesn't mean you're a "real girl". You are a genetic man, regardless of "how you feel" and nothing will change that. Do i feel sorry for people in this situation? The feeling of being born the "wrong sex?" Of course i do. It must be terrible. However, getting all those operations doesn't make you magically the opposite sex, mtf or ftm. I do hope that this person has found happiness in their new form though.

You're wrong. My mate is trans. f2m, and more of a man than you'll ever be.

/ 1/10 you'll have to try harder than that to get me to bite.

Very difficult for them to get the wrists and hips to look right. She'd probably pass as a beautiful woman with unusually narrow hips and big wrists.

By age 14, most boys already have a lot of male characteristics, wider shoulders/narrower hips than girls their age, so hormone therapy alone isn't going to reverse all of that.