Yee and Haw.

dahmers love zombie: Do not point a gun at anything you are not prepared to destroy.

Do not point a gun at anything or anyone that is not causing an immediate threat to you or those under your legal protection.

Do not put a gun in your hand for defensive purposes unless such a threat is occurring, or you have a reasonable belief that such a threat is about to occur.

The preceding situations do not in fact involve chasing someone down the street under ANY circumstances. If you're chasing them, by definition the threat is NOT coming towards you, you farking idiot.

/FL resident
//have a CCW permit and "some" guns
///have never pointed a gun at another human
////hope I never do

You forgot:

Do not ever point a gun at a human being until they are first pointing one at you.

Do not ever leave a loaded gun where a human being might cross its path.

Do not ever keep a loaded gun on you unless you are sport-shooting and every single person there is aware of safety measures.

/My grandfather would have many, many words to say to the asshole murderer.

PsiChick: /My grandfather would have many, many words to say to the asshole murderer.

Your grampus, he be a wise dude.

Mrtraveler01: 9beers: Mike Chewbacca: ChuDogg: He might have mistook the skittles for a gun, but I'll bet he was pretty sure about the fist that was connecting to his dome while he begged for his life.

It was Trayvon begging for his life. Which is why in the 911 call, the last HELP! is stopped in mid-syllable by the gunshot.

An eyewitness says you're a moron.

You mean the one who didn't witness the gunshot because he ran into his house?

The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Yes, that one. It fits perfectly with the narrative of the other witnesses (AWing it up on the media). They heard the screams, came out and saw Zimmerman on top, so naturally assumed he shot him out of cold blood. From there they simply backwards rationalized that it was Martin's screams that they heard. Which is why the police would place more credibility on the other witnesses who witnessed the "fight", who saw Martin on the bottom screaming prior to the gun shot going off. The other witness was a black kid walking his dog. (This is reported by the media, the police could have more)

There's no mystery about the gunshot, Zimmerman killed him while on the ground. Afterwards though he either moved the body or it fell next to him and rolled over on top, obviously disoriented from the beating he was taking. This is when the other two witnesses came out.

Not a single witness saw the fight and said it was Zimmerman on top and/or Martin screaming for help.

Think about how chilling those screams were when you heard them? I know your heart sank a bit. Will it make any difference to you when it's concluded that it is Zimmerman? Will you admit that you were wrong? Will these threads keep continuing and will everyone shouting for his head apologize for their baseless assumptions? Because if not, you're just simply after revenge, not justice.

/and for the record, I already stated as much in the last thread on this.

six four? he's at-least as tall as a goalpost!

PsiChick: You forgot:

Do not ever point a gun at a human being until they are first pointing one at you.

Do not ever leave a loaded gun where a human being might cross its path.

Do not ever keep a loaded gun on you unless you are sport-shooting and every single person there is aware of safety measures.

/My grandfather would have many, many words to say to the asshole murderer.


We can add: when you're getting the shiat beat of you and you need to shoot somebody, make sure there is video, because witnesses aren't enough.

aug3: six four? he's at-least as tall as a goalpost!

[boingboing.net image 600x346]

Is it me, or does this guy look 13?

jabelar: jso2897: jabelar: jso2897: None of this is relevant. What matters is who is responsible for initiating the confrontation. When you assault someone, you lose your right to "self defense" as a legal concept. You cannot legally "defend" yourself from someone you have assaulted. If you could, the robber who guns down the store clerk who pu ...

Well it is relevant to the perception of life-threatening or great bodily harm threat. For example, a little kid could assault me but no matter how many times they kicked my shin (or groin) I wouldn't reasonably shoot them (except in Florida where it is a sport). On the other hand, a muscular 28-year-old could just say "I'm going to kick your ass" and it could possibly interpreted as a initiating a threat of great bodily harm. A teen is a grey area, as it depends on finer judgement.

Yes - but that perception itself is irrelevant when you have assaulted someone. No matter how much fear you are in, or how reasonable that fear is, your only LEGAL recourse is to cease your assault and flee. You may not legally "defend" yourself from someone elses response to an assault on your part.

No, you don't understand. The stand your ground law doesn't require you to be actually assaulted, but rather just perceive a threat. It says "he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another."

So, you can actually shoot as soon as someone says "I'm going to kill you", or you can shoot if you tell someone to stop and they keep walking towards you.

Therefore, the perception of threat is key to the case. Is it reasonable to assume a kid in a hoodie is a threat? Possibly. Probably not in this case, but obviously there is judgement involved and the law allows for it.

You misunderstand what I mean. I am saying that if, in fact, Zimmerman first assaulted Martin, he lost the protection of the Stand Your Ground law at that point. He only recovered it if he subsequently attempted to retreat, and was unsuccessful.
"776.041Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1)Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b)In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force."

We only know that Zimmerman pursued, approached, and confronted Martin, and that Martin ended up shot.
In between, there is a whole bunch we don't know.
Who first laid hands on who?
Did whoever first laid hands on then change their mind, and attempt to retreat?
Did Zimmerman fire from the ground, as he claimed?
What, exactly, will real forensic analysis of the 911 tapes reveal?
Were either of the parties intoxicated?
What did ALL the different witnesses see and hear?
What version of events does the forensic evidence support?
That's why we need to convene a grand jury, and maybe have a trial, and that's why the cops doofed it on this one.

ChuDogg: who saw Martin Zimmerman on the bottom screaming prior to the

Here is something for you to chew on. If Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman pummeling him when he was shot, then how come Zimmerman doesn't have any of his blood on him? According to the police report the only blood on Zimmerman was from a bloody nose and from a small wound on the back of his head. If they were really in the position that everybody is claiming when Trayvon was shot then Zimmerman would have been covered with blood. Another thing is if Zimmerman shot him in the chest when he was on top of him pummeling him like he claims, then why was Trayvon lying face down with his arms underneath as stated in the police report?

Think about that and tell me if this adds up.

aug3: six four? he's at-least as tall as a goalpost!

Why aren't they posting recent pictures?

ChuDogg: Mrtraveler01: 9beers: Mike Chewbacca: ChuDogg: He might have mistook the skittles for a gun, but I'll bet he was pretty sure about the fist that was connecting to his dome while he begged for his life.

It was Trayvon begging for his life. Which is why in the 911 call, the last HELP! is stopped in mid-syllable by the gunshot.

An eyewitness says you're a moron.

You mean the one who didn't witness the gunshot because he ran into his house?

The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Yes, that one. It fits perfectly with the narrative of the other witnesses (AWing it up on the media). They heard the screams, came out and saw Zimmerman on top, so naturally assumed he shot him out of cold blood. From there they simply backwards rationalized that it was Martin's screams that they heard. Which is why the police would place more credibility on the other witnesses who witnessed the "fight", who saw Martin on the bottom screaming prior to the gun shot going off. The other witness was a black kid walking his dog. (This is reported by the media, the police could have more)

There's no mystery about the gunshot, Zimmerman killed him while on the ground. Afterwards though he either moved the body or it fell next to him and rolled over on top, obviously disoriented from the beating he was taking. This is when the other two witnesses came out.

Not a single witness saw the fight and said it was Zimmerman on top and/or Martin screaming for help.

Think about how chilling those screams were when you heard them? I know your heart sank a bit. Will it make any dif ...

No point debating who the voices are - forensic analysis will provide a definitive answer. Now that it's actually, you know, being investigated.

ChuDogg: Think about how chilling those screams were when you heard them?

Thing is, why would an armed man give off "chilling" screams for help?
None of what the "eye witnesses" say add up.
I don't think what they saw is reliable because it's too piece meal, they were in and out of their homes.
I think the cell phones and the 911 recordings will be way more substantial.
There was no doubt a tussle of some sorts. Fact is, the dead guy was un armed, secondly he was initially running and Mr. Z was ill advised, in pursuit. It does not paint a self defense picture. More likely an antagonist situation.

jso2897: forensic analysis will provide a definitive answer. Now that it's actually, you know, being investigated.

Personally, I'm waiting for this info to come out. This subject is way too hot.

ongbok: Here is something for you to chew on. If Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman pummeling him when he was shot, then how come Zimmerman doesn't have any of his blood on him? According to the police report the only blood on Zimmerman was from a bloody nose and from a small wound on the back of his head. If they were really in the position that everybody is claiming when Trayvon was shot then Zimmerman would have been covered with blood. Another thing is if Zimmerman shot him in the chest when he was on top of him pummeling him like he claims, then why was Trayvon lying face down with his arms underneath as stated in the police report?

Think about that and tell me if this adds up.

protip: People rarely drop dead immediately when shot, especially when shot somewhere other than the head. Also, people don't always bleed profusely when shot, much less have exploding sprays of blood as seen in movies.

ongbok: Think about that and tell me if this adds up

It doesn't and blood spatter, or the lack there of, never lies.

aug3: six four? he's at-least as tall as a goalpost!

[boingboing.net image 600x346]

That background looks fake. I can tell by the pixels.

9beers: aug3: six four? he's at-least as tall as a goalpost!

Why aren't they posting recent pictures?

who? the lamestream msm atm media?

This appears to be the most recent photo available of Martin.



OOOOOO scary, hoody and everything.

/Not that what he looks like matters.
//If Zimmerman is innocent, Martin is guilty....think about that.

Party Boy: Personally, I'm waiting for this info to come out. This subject is way too hot.

Agreed dude.
What gets me is the local PD did not bother to secure the scene for a good analysis of what happened. They were rather dismissive about the whole incident.

aug3: 9beers: aug3: six four? he's at-least as tall as a goalpost!

Why aren't they posting recent pictures?

who? the lamestream msm atm media?

He does know it's the family that's releasing the photos and not the media right?

And frankly, who gives a shiat? What difference would it make?

Somebody throw up the recent pictures of Martin, I can't right now.

jso2897: You misunderstand what I mean. I am saying that if, in fact, Zimmerman first assaulted Martin, he lost the protection of the Stand Your Ground law at that point. He only recovered it if he subsequently attempted to retreat, and was unsuccessful.

You seem pretty knowledgeable, Let me ask you this, since I'm about to 99% sure putting the media reports together of what each witness said supports that it was Zimmerman on the bottom screaming. Only 99% because it's theoretically possible the two witnesses who saw him could just be trolling.

Let's say Zimmerman did hang up and pursued Martin, and he finds hiding, asks what he's doing here. Maybe Martin attempts to flee so Zimmerman tries to restrain him by grabbing his arms or something like that, initiating the assault. Martin responds with self defense, punching Zimmerman, eventually gets him on the ground, and Zimmerman starts screaming.

Now let's even say some voice specialists are able to analyze the audio and even prove it was Zimmerman screaming all along, and forensics all match up.

Zimmerman can't attempt to flee here? Is he justified in using self defense? He initiated the assault, Martin was legally able to use self defense. But now Zimmerman is pinned to the ground, and he starts screaming for what seems like a pretty long duration for help, even directly at the guy who owned the condo this was all taking place in front of. Is an attempt to flee? Which he is unable to do, so he now shoots Martin in self defense?

This is a point in self defense law that needs to be clarified.

smeegle: Party Boy: Personally, I'm waiting for this info to come out. This subject is way too hot.

Agreed dude.
What gets me is the local PD did not bother to secure the scene for a good analysis of what happened. They were rather dismissive about the whole incident.

I don't shiat about this process other than what i see on CSI. Is there evidence thats irrevocably destroyed now?

Cataholic: protip: People rarely drop dead immediately when shot, especially when shot somewhere other than the head. Also, people don't always bleed profusely when shot, much less have exploding sprays of blood as seen in movies.

The only problem with that is that there is real time eyewitness testimony to how quickly Martin died. He was viewed within less then 30 seconds motionless and making no sound. Also, shots to the chest tend to be quite bloody considering it is the kill zone.

/seen my fair share of bodies shot in the chest

dlp211: This appears to be the most recent photo available of Martin.

[sfbayview.com image 402x404]

OOOOOO scary, hoody and everything.

/Not that what he looks like matters.
//If Zimmerman is innocent, Martin is guilty....think about that.

Well that does it then...this proves that Zimmerman was innocent. I mean look at how scary he looks!

I blame the police for not following up on this. Hell, they didn't even ask around to see if his relatives lived there. The law needs to be changed and the police need to take these cases more seriously. I still don't think its ok for people to think they can just kill someone if they are getting beat up in a fight. This law is sending that exact message. Another message being its ok to be a vigilante as long as you think that other guy is a criminal.

If Florida residents want justice for Trayvon. CHANGE THE DAMN LAW YOU IDIOTS. Everyone, and I mean, everyone should be happy they are investigating this... the problem is the police should have done a better job in the first place.

dlp211: Cataholic: protip: People rarely drop dead immediately when shot, especially when shot somewhere other than the head. Also, people don't always bleed profusely when shot, much less have exploding sprays of blood as seen in movies.

The only problem with that is that there is real time eyewitness testimony to how quickly Martin died. He was viewed within less then 30 seconds motionless and making no sound. Also, shots to the chest tend to be quite bloody considering it is the kill zone.

/seen my fair share of bodies shot in the chest

Really? You've seen your fair share of bodies regularly shot in the chest? War Zone?

9beers: Somebody throw up the recent pictures of Martin, I can't right now.

I saw them. It still doesn't change the fact that this guy FARKING SHOT AN UNARMED KID while playing to pretend cop.

WTF difference does it make what picture is posted?

Jesus Christ, you people are a piece of work.

ChuDogg: But now Zimmerman is pinned to the ground

I just don't see that as a reality given the physical attribute of both parties. But I could be wrong. The Martin guy could be some sorta ninja, after he told his girl friend he wouldn't run away but walk fast.

Party Boy: dlp211: Cataholic: protip: People rarely drop dead immediately when shot, especially when shot somewhere other than the head. Also, people don't always bleed profusely when shot, much less have exploding sprays of blood as seen in movies.

The only problem with that is that there is real time eyewitness testimony to how quickly Martin died. He was viewed within less then 30 seconds motionless and making no sound. Also, shots to the chest tend to be quite bloody considering it is the kill zone.

/seen my fair share of bodies shot in the chest

Really? You've seen your fair share of bodies regularly shot in the chest? War Zone?

Yes

Mrtraveler01: 9beers: Somebody throw up the recent pictures of Martin, I can't right now.

I saw them. It still doesn't change the fact that this guy FARKING SHOT AN UNARMED KID while playing to pretend cop.

WTF difference does it make what picture is posted?

Jesus Christ, you people are a piece of work.

He shot a violent thugs that was beating his ass. I have a witness to back my story, do you?

Party Boy: Is there evidence thats irrevocably destroyed now?

Possibly, I get me info from fictional books. TV ain't my thing.

dlp211: Yes

Well, shiat.

fark me.

Cataholic: ongbok: Here is something for you to chew on. If Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman pummeling him when he was shot, then how come Zimmerman doesn't have any of his blood on him? According to the police report the only blood on Zimmerman was from a bloody nose and from a small wound on the back of his head. If they were really in the position that everybody is claiming when Trayvon was shot then Zimmerman would have been covered with blood. Another thing is if Zimmerman shot him in the chest when he was on top of him pummeling him like he claims, then why was Trayvon lying face down with his arms underneath as stated in the police report?

Think about that and tell me if this adds up.

protip: People rarely drop dead immediately when shot, especially when shot somewhere other than the head. Also, people don't always bleed profusely when shot, much less have exploding sprays of blood as seen in movies.

So your position is you can shoot somebody in the chest while they are on top of you and not get any of their blood on you?

ChuDogg: jso2897: You misunderstand what I mean. I am saying that if, in fact, Zimmerman first assaulted Martin, he lost the protection of the Stand Your Ground law at that point. He only recovered it if he subsequently attempted to retreat, and was unsuccessful.

You seem pretty knowledgeable, Let me ask you this, since I'm about to 99% sure putting the media reports together of what each witness said supports that it was Zimmerman on the bottom screaming. Only 99% because it's theoretically possible the two witnesses who saw him could just be trolling.

Let's say Zimmerman did hang up and pursued Martin, and he finds hiding, asks what he's doing here. Maybe Martin attempts to flee so Zimmerman tries to restrain him by grabbing his arms or something like that, initiating the assault. Martin responds with self defense, punching Zimmerman, eventually gets him on the ground, and Zimmerman starts screaming.

Now let's even say some voice specialists are able to analyze the audio and even prove it was Zimmerman screaming all along, and forensics all match up.

Zimmerman can't attempt to flee here? Is he justified in using self defense? He initiated the assault, Martin was legally able to use self defense. But now Zimmerman is pinned to the ground, and he starts screaming for what seems like a pretty long duration for help, even directly at the guy who owned the condo this was all taking place in front of. Is an attempt to flee? Which he is unable to do, so he now shoots Martin in self defense?

This is a point in self defense law that needs to be clarified.

This would be a matter that a jury would need to deliberate on. They may find some witnesses more or less credible than others. They may or may not be convinced to interpret some matter as the defense or prosecution petitions them to. They may discount or give credit to circumstantial and forensic evidence. There are a lot of variables here, and only having the damn trial can resolve most of them.

Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 600x402]

smeegle: Party Boy: Is there evidence thats irrevocably destroyed now?

Possibly, I get me info from fictional books. TV ain't my thing.

All i know, is I don't know a goddamn thing, and this looks like a very, very heated discussion. I'm having a hard time discerning whats good information and whats crap.

9beers: Mrtraveler01: 9beers: Somebody throw up the recent pictures of Martin, I can't right now.

I saw them. It still doesn't change the fact that this guy FARKING SHOT AN UNARMED KID while playing to pretend cop.

WTF difference does it make what picture is posted?

Jesus Christ, you people are a piece of work.

He shot a violent thugs that was beating his ass. I have a witness to back my story, do you?

Well there is a witness that said he was standing over Trayvon pointing the gun at him after the shot.

And we also have Zimmerman's own words saying Trayvon was running from him.

So I think the only violent thug is Zimmerman.

9beers: Mrtraveler01: 9beers: Somebody throw up the recent pictures of Martin, I can't right now.

I saw them. It still doesn't change the fact that this guy FARKING SHOT AN UNARMED KID while playing to pretend cop.

WTF difference does it make what picture is posted?

Jesus Christ, you people are a piece of work.

He shot a violent thugs that was beating his ass. I have a witness to back my story, do you?

And this has to do with what picture is posted in the paper how?

eraser8: WTF difference does it make what picture is posted?

Well, ill tell you from my perspective, it looks young. Of course, 17 year olds can look young or old - I guess. How old is he in that pic?