FARK.com: (7007828) Remember that article claiming that Jesus was a real person? Yeah, about that. Short answer "No", long answer "Noooooooooooooooooooo"

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(Some Guy)		Remember that article claiming that Jesus was a real person? Yeah, about that. Short answer "No", long answer "Noooooooooooooooooooo" (freethoughtblogs.com)		176
		More: Followup, Jesus Christ, fallacy, Pontius Pilate, valid argument, hypotheticals, Aramaic, Alexander the Great, gospels

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Darklemming		2012-03-21 11:07:33 PM

Uh... Jesus Christ was a real person. Debate all you want about whether or not he was the son of God, but he actually existed as a human being. The part they got wrong was the timeline of his birth and death. It's now believed he actually died 6 years (6 B.C.) before when it was originally thought he was born.

There's hundreds of non-religious historical texts that mention him or talk about him in practical terms.

stealingisbad		2012-03-21 11:08:26 PM

Shostie: MaudlinMutantMollusk: TheDumbBlonde: People are actually disregarding the Roman documentation of the man's existence? Really?

Never trust a Roman bearing documentation

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Brought peace?

Pardon Me Sultan		2012-03-21 11:13:57 PM

Nadie_AZ: Just as long as they leave other people alone and don't try to legislate their beliefs and morality.

Whoo-boy. "Wishful Thinking of the Day" award goes to you.

I just can't see the legions of these overly credulous mouth breathers ever accepting anything like that. But since they've had any capacity for critical thinking deliberately stunted by the church, I don't blame them as much as pitying them.

It would still be awfully nice, though, if they STFU about how everybody has to act exactly like them because their invisible sky fairie says so in the book they pretend he wrote.

SomethingToDo		2012-03-21 11:17:34 PM

Short answer: Maybe
Long answer: Maybeeeeeeeeeee

The fun bit about investigating the historical person of Jesus isn't whether he existed or not, it's that there were so many other guys who were doing the same kind of stuff at the same time, and that his particular version on the theme took off. It's interesting to look at Christianity, a radical version of hellenised Judaism, as the 1st century's version of the Hare Krishna movement.

William Shakespeare wrote his own plays, that's 100% a fact.

HairBolus		2012-03-21 11:19:11 PM

I believe Jesus really existed however he behaved rather "inappropriately" in his lifetime so his followers destroyed all contemporary records and rewrote large parts of his history and why they were following him.

In particular he and his followers were gay - though they didn't "lay with a man as with a woman" but were into blowjobs. Most of this has been erased however it is preserved in the ritual of Communion which is literally about eating and drinking Jesus.

SevenizGud		2012-03-21 11:20:09 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: timujin: 1. Josephus' mentioning of Jesus is a forgery added to his writings
2. He wasn't a contemporary, he wrote his history about 60 years after Jesus supposedly lived

These. The paragraph (yes, paragraph) about Jesus makes no sense in the context of the original work; the forgery was inserted very clumsily.

Josephus' work was exceptionally clumsy to begin with, so how would you know the difference?

bravian		2012-03-21 11:20:56 PM

Darklemming: There's hundreds of non-religious historical texts that mention him or talk about him in practical terms.

There are barely enough texts and other evidence (such as images on coins) that mention the rulers and real significant figures of the era than some random jewish preacher. The evidence that such a person exist is slim at best.

Dired		2012-03-21 11:26:17 PM

Darklemming: Uh... Jesus Christ was a real person. Debate all you want about whether or not he was the son of God, but he actually existed as a human being. The part they got wrong was the timeline of his birth and death. It's now believed he actually died 6 years (6 B.C.) before when it was originally thought he was born.

There's hundreds of non-religious historical texts that mention him or talk about him in practical terms.

But that's the whole issue. Everyone assumes there's "evidence" because... well, how could there not be? Jesus is the most important person ever! But when pressed to actually come up with specifics, there's just nothing there. Oh, there's one guy who supposedly spelled the name wrong, and people writing long after Jesus' assumed death, and I think one cryptic one-sentence reference that... could be... but for actual, when-he-was-alive, there's just nothing of consequence.

You can't prove a negative of course, but for such a revered figure, the lack of contemporary evidence of anything about him just strikes as odd and unexpected.

Nix Nightbird		2012-03-21 11:26:49 PM

s2s2s2		2012-03-21 11:27:21 PM

Mistake #4: I just got trolled, hard.

hogans		2012-03-21 11:29:29 PM

JerseyTim: If Jesus wasn't real, then who gave us the Constitution?

upload.wikimedia.org

The Pilgrims sailed to America on it, and Pontius was their pilot.

MusicMakeMyHeadPound		2012-03-21 11:31:34 PM

t3knomanser: nmrsnr: Like, is there any question as to the historicity of someone like Mohammed or the Buddha?

Socrates isn't a religious figure, but there are questions about his historicity.

Keep in mind, though, that only a handful of people need to have to have claimed to interact with Jesus. And further keep in mind that this was an era full of political strife and messiah cults. What could have started out as a myth told to bolster the ideas of the Judean People's Front could have been taken at face value by the People's Front of Judea.

This.

The story about the New Testament character of Simon Magus, for example, gained traction because early apologist Justin Martyr mistook a statue devoted to Semoni Sancus as corroborating evidence of the conflict between Peter and Simon.

The success of Christianity is also attributed to it being very attractive to the people of that era. Compared to the brutal, capricious, and bickering gods of Rome, a single deity granting freedom must have made it very easy to ignore contradictions or to not want to root out the truth of the matter.

Then the church gained some serious political power in 313 C.E. which created a major incentive to tie up loose ends.

There might have been a guy named Joshua who thought that unifying Judaism with Roman belief with a good serving of brotherly love would smooth things over quite a bit, but he got the Davy Crockett treatment in a very, very big way.

MusicMakeMyHeadPound		2012-03-21 11:38:01 PM

Diagonal: Diagonal: t3knomanser: nmrsnr: Like, is there any question as to the historicity of someone like Mohammed or the Buddha?

Socrates isn't a religious figure, but there are questions about his historicity.

-- Needs citation. --

It's funny that you chose those exact words because there's a whole Wikipedia page about it:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_problem

Gwyrddu		2012-03-21 11:39:08 PM

dennysgod: Doesn't really matter if he was real or not, it's called "Faith" for a reason.

Faith is believing in what you know ain't so.

spiralsong		2012-03-21 11:40:04 PM

boring article was boring

Gwyrddu		2012-03-21 11:41:28 PM

Diagonal: t3knomanser: nmrsnr: Like, is there any question as to the historicity of someone like Mohammed or the Buddha?

Socrates isn't a religious figure, but there are questions about his historicity.

So you are saying Socrates wasn't a man? Logic class lied to me!

KarmicDisaster		2012-03-21 11:42:59 PM

There might even be more evidence for King Arthur and Robin Hood being actual historical figures that Jesus.

gonjie		2012-03-21 11:46:51 PM

Nadie_AZ: Meh. Who cares? They could worship a bowl of imaginary spaghetti and meatballs, and I wouldn't care. Just as long as they leave other people alone and don't try to legislate their beliefs and morality.
This^
.....granted it reminded me of This (Maybe NSFW) (new window)

propasaurus		2012-03-21 11:54:06 PM

MusicMakeMyHeadPound		2012-03-22 12:08:07 AM

Gwyrddu: Diagonal: t3knomanser: nmrsnr: Like, is there any question as to the historicity of someone like Mohammed or the Buddha?

Socrates isn't a religious figure, but there are questions about his historicity.

So you are saying Socrates wasn't a man? Logic class lied to me!

No. He was saying there are questions about his historicity. There's almost certainly a difference between the actual Socrates and Plato's convenient authority muppet.

A more modern analogy: there was actually a guy named George Washington, but that part about him chopping down the cherry tree is part of Mythical George Washington, not Historical George Washington.

Why is this even controversial? Did you sleep through your history classes?

Bartleby the Scrivener		2012-03-22 12:08:47 AM

Jesus was an extraterrestrial.

s2s2s2		2012-03-22 12:10:17 AM

Bartleby the Scrivener: Jesus was an extraterrestrial.

You say extraterrestrial, they say supernatural. Same thing.

Bartleby the Scrivener		2012-03-22 12:12:19 AM

s2s2s2: Bartleby the Scrivener: Jesus was an extraterrestrial.

You say extraterrestrial, they say supernatural. Same thing.

Unlike ET, though, he could not eat the reese's pieces because they kept falling through the holes in his hands.

Fano		2012-03-22 12:21:10 AM

hogans: JerseyTim: If Jesus wasn't real, then who gave us the Constitution?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x289]

The Pilgrims sailed to America on it, and Pontius was their pilot.

+1 I snickered

Britney Spear's Speculum		2012-03-22 12:36:23 AM

If Jesus is real then how come I have all these ORANGES

falcon176		2012-03-22 12:37:07 AM

is this the thread where people who will never move from their stance talk to other people who will never move from their stance and nothing is accomplished

LoneWolf343		2012-03-22 12:47:48 AM

soupbone		2012-03-22 01:02:07 AM

falcon176: is this the thread where people who will never move from their stance talk to other people who will never move from their stance and nothing is accomplished

This is indeed that thread.

blog.clayburngriffin.com

andrewagill		2012-03-22 01:04:40 AM

Honestly, a significant part of this is probably that Ehrman is a pretty liberal dude (well, maybe as far as New Testament textual scholars go-certainly moreso than his mentor, Bruce Metzger), and he shows up on TLC documentaries from time to time arguing fairly liberal positions. If you point someone to one of those documentaries, they might read his stuff, and be surprised when a scholar disagrees with some scholarly work that some other dude did.

Kome		2012-03-22 01:29:09 AM

andrewagill: and be surprised when a scholar disagrees with some scholarly work that some other dude did.

I am always a little curious why people think the educated are a homogenous group. Scholarly work, particularly in the sciences, can only continue as long as there is rational, logical, and coherent disagreement. It doesn't even have to be civil - and in fact it most often isn't - but disagreement not only will happen but it has to happen for us to progress. Now, that's not saying that anyone's opinions, hypotheses, and theories are valid. Only the evidence marshaled for it can determine validity. But it doesn't mean historians, philosophers, and scientists are all in the same boat on every issue they ever discuss.

liverpoolumd		2012-03-22 01:32:42 AM

soupbone: falcon176: is this the thread where people who will never move from their stance talk to other people who will never move from their stance and nothing is accomplished

This is indeed that thread.

[blog.clayburngriffin.com image 568x326]

Station.

stonelotus		2012-03-22 01:48:48 AM

WHAR BIRTH CERTIFICATE?! WHARRRR??!1!?

MrEricSir		2012-03-22 02:03:40 AM

Ridiculous. Next thing you know they'll be saying is that Santa isn't real.

turbidum		2012-03-22 02:20:37 AM

Marcus Aurelius: The historian Josephus observed that all the messianic cults had died out, except for one, based on Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Jew born to a mother that was impregnated by a Roman centurion. So he was not only a real person, but he had friends loyal enough to cut him down off the cross during a thunderstorm. He laid low after that.

From Wikipedia: "He refers to. . . such figures as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Agrippa I and Agrippa II, John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, and a centuries-long disputed reference to Jesus."

The page for Josephus on Jesus, which supports your assertion, reads like it was edited by people who are pro-historicity (i.e. "the overwhelming majority of modern scholars"). . . at least the intro does, I'm too lazy/uninterested to read the rest.

lewismarktwo		2012-03-22 02:23:17 AM

There was once a man named Jesus of Nazareth who once asked the question: "Why is everyone being such dickholes?" Lot's of people agreed with him and so they nailed his wrists and feet to a plank of wood as an example.

Jesus was way cool. (new tube)

And obligatory:
27.media.tumblr.com

r1niceboy		2012-03-22 02:23:55 AM

I've seen the arguments that say he wasn't real, but they're a bit woolly and wishful thinking. I'll admit that he probably existed, but have serious issues with the whole....everything.

Max Awesome		2012-03-22 02:34:38 AM

WhyteRaven74:
Ehrman is an agnostic, and if you walk into any history department anywhere and suggest Jesus didn't exist, you're liable to find yourself being lead away in a straight jacket.

That's crazy. We live in an insane, wackadoo, screw-ball world.

Zombalupagus		2012-03-22 02:41:30 AM

That was waaaaaaay to much to read for right now, but it touches on a few things I myself had researched a few years back.

My conclusion: There was a historical Jesus that the Jesus in the Bible was based on. He was known as Jesus Ben Pantera (a "John Doe" style of name that implies an illegitimate father, presumably a Roman centurion), taught to the Essenes (new window), and was stoned to death in 88 B.C.

I seem to the only person aware of this, mainly due to the fact that I happened upon all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle and was able to connect them. I'm pretty sure of this, but it's been a few years since I did the research and much of it is very obscure and hard to find even in these days of the Internet. But remember: You heard it first from some guy on Fark.

By the way the Jesus teaching the Essenes is usually assumed to be the Jesus of the Bible, but his teachings are slightly different, for example, the Holy Trinity is the father the son and the mother. This mother is the Mother Earth, which gives you your body and everything of this world, as opposed to the Heavenly Father which gives you your spirit. By this logic, Jesus is the son of these two, and suddenly the Trinity not only makes sense but has many deeper spiritual implications.

This is of course regarded by the church as heresy, but makes sense if the gospel stuff was based on his teachings. The Essene Gospel is itself a wonderful read and offers a much different take on things than what passes for Christianity as of late. I highly recommend it whether you are Christian, Pagan, Atheist, or Pastafarian.

A snippet:

And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life.

Max Awesome		2012-03-22 02:47:33 AM

Only Mary's hoo-ha knows for certain.

Doctor Jan Itor		2012-03-22 04:05:51 AM

FSM got Mary preggers. It says so in this little book.

/Station

lippenhoffer		2012-03-22 06:23:56 AM

FTFA it seems the short answer is: Maybe. Long answer: We'll never knowwwwwwwwwwwww

nopokerface		2012-03-22 06:31:41 AM

lippenhoffer: FTFA it seems the short answer is: Maybe. Long answer: We'll never knowwwwwwwwwwwww

Yep. And in the 6 sentences I read, this guy both admitted he hadn't read the other guy's book, and lied about what the other guy had said in his article.

So, thanks for the clarification, dude who can't wait one more day for Amazon to deliver!

Loucifer		2012-03-22 06:41:17 AM

Jesus Christ, that was a long article.

You'd turn it off when I was halfway across		2012-03-22 07:01:27 AM

nmrsnr: Just out of curiosity, is there any other religion or mythology that is based around a supposed historical figure that we accept now as being entirely mythical? Like, is there any question as to the historicity of someone like Mohammed or the Buddha?

The evidence in favor of his historicity seems to me to be that within relative short order (~50 years) a group of people would have had to make up a person whom they supposedly interacted with, as opposed to creating a historical figure, which is much more common (Moses, Rama, Romulus and Remus, etc.)

John Frum (new window)

Vaneshi		2012-03-22 07:24:25 AM

TheDumbBlonde: People are actually disregarding the Roman documentation of the man's existence? Really?

Yes. Look you have sacred artefacts like the Shroud of Turin. Except the carbon dating of it doesn't come close to it having existed in the time he was supposed to be alive but it was the shroud this historical figure was wrapped in.... but it can't be... but it is. You have edits, addendum's and general nonsense added to texts to substantiate the church, possibly made during the Dark and Middle Ages (or later) when the church had that much power.

There is no way to tell if that Roman tablet with the name "Jesus" on it is a real document that dates back to those times, just someone pratting around in those times with a discarded tablet or an outright deliberate forgery.

The church has been shown to be untrustworthy when it comes to providing accurate records the accuracy of anything to do with them or their deity must be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism.

Rent is too damn high		2012-03-22 07:45:23 AM

I think it's possible Jesus was real, but he had some loan sharks going after him. So one day he fakes his crucifiction. Then some people see him a couple days later and he's like oh yeah I'm actually the son of God and I got resurrected, watch out I'm on my way to heaven! Oldest trick in the book.

Gwyrddu		2012-03-22 07:53:45 AM

Rent is too damn high: I think it's possible Jesus was real, but he had some loan sharks going after him. So one day he fakes his crucifiction. Then some people see him a couple days later and he's like oh yeah I'm actually the son of God and I got resurrected, watch out I'm on my way to heaven! Oldest trick in the book.

Yup, how else do you think the holy grail ended up in England other than Jesus bringing it there when he was on the lam?

grokca		2012-03-22 08:26:54 AM

Gwyrddu: Rent is too damn high: I think it's possible Jesus was real, but he had some loan sharks going after him. So one day he fakes his crucifiction. Then some people see him a couple days later and he's like oh yeah I'm actually the son of God and I got resurrected, watch out I'm on my way to heaven! Oldest trick in the book.

Yup, how else do you think the holy grail ended up in England other than Jesus bringing it there when he was on the lam?

On the lam, lamb of god. It all makes perfect sense now.

shakespear		2012-03-22 09:04:21 AM

violentsalvation: WhyteRaven74: if you walk into any history department anywhere and suggest Jesus didn't exist, you're liable to find yourself being lead away in a straight jacket.

Farking this.

images5.fanpop.com

Jesus Burnt My Hotdog		2012-03-22 09:06:05 AM

dennysgod: Doesn't really matter if he was real or not, it's called "Faith" for a reason.

Faith is silly. You can have all the faith you want that it's bright and sunny outside, that's all well and good. Continuing to believe that when someone opens your curtains and shows you that it's the middle of the night and it's raining does not a competent mind make.

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