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(Some Guy)   Meet the lobbyist responsible for Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law   (meetthenra.org) divider line 225
    More: Interesting, lobbyists, NRA  
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11688 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Mar 2012 at 9:56 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-21 09:58:21 AM  
Nothing wrong with the spirit of the law, its just the application that's Farked up.
 
2012-03-21 09:59:06 AM  
Anarchy is the law.
 
2012-03-21 09:59:43 AM  
Thank you, Marion P. Hammer.

An individual, engaged in perfectly legal activity, should be able to defend himself or herself without the ludicrous requirement to turn his back and flee.
 
2012-03-21 10:00:27 AM  
I got as far as "six year old girl, hunting and eating rabbits and squirrels" and decided that's enough perversion right there. How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?
 
2012-03-21 10:02:39 AM  

EnderX: Nothing wrong with the spirit of the law, its just the application that's Farked up.


Exactly,

"Stand your ground" laws are meant to overturn prior "Duty to retreat" laws that essentially criminalized self defense except in the most extreme of circumstances.

It's about self-defense, not a license to be a vigilante stalking people you think are criminals and executing them.
 
2012-03-21 10:03:58 AM  

EnderX: Nothing wrong with the spirit of the law, its just the application that's Farked up.


yeah I don't really see an issue with the law itself.

The difference in this case is that the killer didn't listen to the cops, put himself in "danger" (IF his life was actually threatened at all, which there's no evidence to say it was) and according to 911 calls, executed the kid.

The law shouldn't apply here.
 
2012-03-21 10:04:06 AM  
You can thank the Bush family for it to courtesy of the supposedly "smart" one ( Jeb ). The rich have traditionally been a drag on most countries but the disaster known as the Bush family has been like a plague, WWIII and the end of the world all wrapped up in one.
 
2012-03-21 10:04:16 AM  
You can't touch this.
 
2012-03-21 10:04:21 AM  

CAADbury: Thank you, Marion P. Hammer.

An individual, engaged in perfectly legal activity, should be able to defend himself or herself without the ludicrous requirement to turn his back and flee.


& a kid should be able to walk back to his father's house with a bag of skittles without getting murdered. EnderX states it well:


EnderX: Nothing wrong with the spirit of the law, its just the application that's Farked up.

 
2012-03-21 10:04:24 AM  
Thanks Marion!
 
2012-03-21 10:04:54 AM  

Silverstaff: It's about self-defense, not a license to be a vigilante stalking people you think are criminals and executing them.


^THIS

Prosecute Zimmerman as a vigilante, convict him for murder, and gift-wrap him for "Cell-block Caesar".
 
2012-03-21 10:07:02 AM  
Holy crap, she's bonkers.
 
2012-03-21 10:07:05 AM  

I Said: EnderX: Nothing wrong with the spirit of the law, its just the application that's Farked up.

yeah I don't really see an issue with the law itself.

The difference in this case is that the killer didn't listen to the cops, put himself in "danger" (IF his life was actually threatened at all, which there's no evidence to say it was) and according to 911 calls, executed the kid.

The law shouldn't apply here.


Yeah I'll agree with you there. You nut jobs don't get it.
 
2012-03-21 10:09:12 AM  
I see no problem at all with this.
 
2012-03-21 10:09:46 AM  
img.fark.com
 
2012-03-21 10:10:04 AM  

I Said: The difference in this case is that the killer didn't listen to the cops, put himself in "danger" (IF his life was actually threatened at all, which there's no evidence to say it was) and according to 911 calls, executed the kid.


As I stated up thread, this case bears quite a few hallmarks of utilization of actual LEO tactics. Last year, there was a local case of an officer shooting and killing a local punk who was "driving right at him(!)" after the officer intentionally positioned his self in the middle of the road so that the punk would have no other choice. Imagine that. If a police officer wants to shoot you, all he has to do is step off the curb so that you are approaching him with a "deadly weapon" (in the form of your POV). You are toast.
 
2012-03-21 10:10:15 AM  
Read the article.

What a horrible, malicious coont.

/supports gun ownership but wants tighter gun regulations
 
2012-03-21 10:10:25 AM  
She's a complete asshole. Wow.
 
2012-03-21 10:10:26 AM  
It's stand your ground, not chase down and confront on someone else's property.

This debate should not be happening, because it is not applicable to the case in Stanford.

The "Watch Commander" was not standing his ground, he was creating a confrontation where one did not exist, and got trigger happy.

People trying to apply Stand your Ground laws are just trying to cover up the murder of an uppity n***** by a guy who had no business owning a gun.
 
2012-03-21 10:10:41 AM  

Silverstaff: EnderX: Nothing wrong with the spirit of the law, its just the application that's Farked up.

Exactly,

"Stand your ground" laws are meant to overturn prior "Duty to retreat" laws that essentially criminalized self defense except in the most extreme of circumstances.

It's about self-defense, not a license to be a vigilante stalking people you think are criminals and executing them.


That's what I think is so screwed up about the lack of prosecution in this case. How can a person force a confrontation, then use excessive force in response resulting in death, then claim self-defense?

Sounds like an iron-clad defense for any subsequent cases of road rage. Just push the other car in front of a semi, and claim you felt threatened. As long as the other driver is dead, you're in the clear!
 
2012-03-21 10:12:35 AM  
Okay, I went back to TFA and found many, many more disturbing things there:

- "Liberalize the law concerning the use of lethal force in public by gun carriers" - I guess innocent bystanders are just collateral damage
- "Force colleges and universities to allow guns on their campuses" - Force them? Yeah, guns on college campuses has worked out so well in the past
- "Prohibit doctors, including pediatricians, from asking patients questions about firearms" - this is a fabulous idea...Doctor: "um, ma'am, I'm not allowed to ask you anything about firearms, but can you please answer in a way that doesn't include firearms as to why your child has a hole in his head?"
- Hammer renewed her opposition to an effort by the South Florida Hospital and Healthcare Association to ban the carrying of firearms in hospitals and nursing homes - yes, guns in an environment that includes lots of oxygen tanks. One bang-boom and lots of people suddenly come into an inheritance.

I Just couldn't go further...this woman is insane.
 
2012-03-21 10:13:51 AM  
bluehubcap


I got as far as "six year old girl, hunting and eating rabbits and squirrels" and decided that's enough perversion right there. How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?



That's as far as you got? Makes you a lazy reader.
And you consider her "perverse" for growing up hunting and eating her own food? Makes you closed minded.

It was an interesting article.
 
2012-03-21 10:14:10 AM  
FTFA: "She explains that she founded USF 'because Florida was seeing what I would call a burst of gun control measures being filed by northerners who had moved to South Florida and had brought the stuff that they had moved away from with them.'"

/should be posted at every arrival hall in every airport and southbound interstate south and of the Potomac and East of the Rockies
 
2012-03-21 10:14:21 AM  
My dad also grew up on a farm and started carrying a gun at five years old. He even killed a guy while on guard duty in the army. Even he doesn't feel like he needs to carry a gun everywhere he goes to feel safe. This is where she starts to look a little on the crazy side.

csb:(1967)Dad was in basic and was put on guard duty over night. A young officer liked to shoot the only lightbulb and watch the recruit/draftee panic in the dark. My dad's turn came and instead of panic levels the M-16 and emptied the mag. The MPs found the guy in the bushes. He didn't get time to turn and run. No charges since dad did what he was suppose to do.
 
2012-03-21 10:15:05 AM  
If a "Stand Your Ground" law is in place and I am somewhere where only one other person can observe me, what is there to stop that person from shooting me, saying he felt threatened, and using "Stand Your Ground" as a defense against even being arrested and investigated? Is it just by their good grace that I continue breathing?
 
2012-03-21 10:16:11 AM  

Bob16: You can thank the Bush family for it to courtesy of the supposedly "smart" one ( Jeb ). The rich have traditionally been a drag on most countries but the disaster known as the Bush family has been like a plague, WWIII and the end of the world all wrapped up in one.


Well that seems to be a well thought out and fact rich statement. Thanks for that deep analysis
 
2012-03-21 10:16:56 AM  
Basically "The Republican Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Criminal Committee, Bob Johnson, said Hammer possessed, "the lowest standard of integrity I have ever seen for a lobbyist in Tallahassee."
 
2012-03-21 10:17:16 AM  
I don't see how it applies either, Zimmerman was the aggressor ... SYG shouldn't apply to the aggressor.
 
2012-03-21 10:17:33 AM  

karnal: bluehubcap


I got as far as "six year old girl, hunting and eating rabbits and squirrels" and decided that's enough perversion right there. How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?


That's as far as you got? Makes you a lazy reader.
And you consider her "perverse" for growing up hunting and eating her own food? Makes you closed minded.

It was an interesting article.


Please. I've grown up on rabbit pie, venison and moose. I didn't want to shoot them when I was six, though.

Got anything else besides personal insults?
 
2012-03-21 10:17:54 AM  

bluehubcap: I got as far as "six year old girl, hunting and eating rabbits and squirrels" and decided that's enough perversion right there. How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?


It's a hunger games prequel.
 
2012-03-21 10:18:36 AM  
In a radio interview with NRA News on January 11, 2011, Hammer expressed outrage that Florida residents would be denied the ability to bring guns into cemeteries to mourn their lost loved ones.

See? Asshole.
 
2012-03-21 10:19:19 AM  

I Said: EnderX: Nothing wrong with the spirit of the law, its just the application that's Farked up.

yeah I don't really see an issue with the law itself.

The difference in this case is that the killer didn't listen to the cops, put himself in "danger" (IF his life was actually threatened at all, which there's no evidence to say it was) and according to 911 calls, executed the kid.

The law shouldn't apply here.


Precisely. "Stand your ground" is not even in play here. Sanford PD's hamfisted failure to do basic investigation, and then mis-applying things is the problem.
 
2012-03-21 10:19:28 AM  

beta_plus: FTFA: "She explains that she founded USF 'because Florida was seeing what I would call a burst of gun control measures being filed by northerners who had moved to South Florida and had brought the stuff that they had moved away from with them.'"

/should be posted at every arrival hall in every airport and southbound interstate south and of the Potomac and East of the Rockies


I thought what "Northerners" were moving away from was snow.
 
2012-03-21 10:20:08 AM  

bluehubcap: I got as far as "six year old girl, hunting and eating rabbits and squirrels" and decided that's enough perversion right there. How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?


Hungry ones?
 
2012-03-21 10:20:26 AM  

SwingingJohnson: Anarchy is the law.


Thank you, thank you very much.
 
2012-03-21 10:20:48 AM  

bluehubcap:
- Hammer renewed her opposition to an effort by the South Florida Hospital and Healthcare Association to ban the carrying of firearms in hospitals and nursing homes - yes, guns in an environment that includes lots of oxygen tanks. One bang-boom and lots of people suddenly come into an inheritance.

I Just couldn't go further...this woman is insane.


Because handguns and dementia mix so well.
 
2012-03-21 10:21:21 AM  

bluehubcap: Okay, I went back to TFA and found many, many more disturbing things there:

- "Liberalize the law concerning the use of lethal force in public by gun carriers" - I guess innocent bystanders are just collateral damage
- "Force colleges and universities to allow guns on their campuses" - Force them? Yeah, guns on college campuses has worked out so well in the past
- "Prohibit doctors, including pediatricians, from asking patients questions about firearms" - this is a fabulous idea...Doctor: "um, ma'am, I'm not allowed to ask you anything about firearms, but can you please answer in a way that doesn't include firearms as to why your child has a hole in his head?"
- Hammer renewed her opposition to an effort by the South Florida Hospital and Healthcare Association to ban the carrying of firearms in hospitals and nursing homes - yes, guns in an environment that includes lots of oxygen tanks. One bang-boom and lots of people suddenly come into an inheritance.

I Just couldn't go further...this woman is insane.


I read those same items and thought the same thing. This lady literally wants the ability to carry a weapon in every single part of her life like this is same Western movie and she might have to take down some bad guy in some kind of shoot out.
 
2012-03-21 10:21:28 AM  

Bob16: You can thank the Bush family for it to courtesy of the supposedly "smart" one ( Jeb ). The rich have traditionally been a drag on most countries but the disaster known as the Bush family has been like a plague, WWIII and the end of the world all wrapped up in one.


WTF are you babbling about??
 
2012-03-21 10:21:46 AM  
The law is fine. This crazy lady is fine. It all boils down to the nut job that shot the kid. It's people like him that give the rest of us law following gun carriers a bad name.
 
2012-03-21 10:22:40 AM  

Silverstaff: EnderX: Nothing wrong with the spirit of the law, its just the application that's Farked up.

Exactly,

"Stand your ground" laws are meant to overturn prior "Duty to retreat" laws that essentially criminalized self defense except in the most extreme of circumstances.

It's about self-defense, not a license to be a vigilante stalking people you think are criminals and executing them.


Oh bullshiat, the "Stand Your Ground" laws are for the same bed-wetting paranoids who need to carry their guns everywhere. These Wannabe Tough Guys are itching for a chance to take revenge on the kids who bullied them in school.

Every d@mn self-defense class tells you to de-escalate or try to remove yourself from the situation. Any Adult knows once the fists or bullets start flying, anything can happen, all of it usually bad.
 
2012-03-21 10:23:22 AM  
the centuries of jurisprudence on self-defense were perfectly satisfactory. people who defended themselves were not being convicted.

the old standard worked as well as it needed to. lowering the burden only increases the danger of justifying a non-self defense homicide or a disproportionate use of force, it does not decrease the danger of prosecuting the justified, because the justified were not at risk.

every homicide should be thoroughly examined. if it were justified by self-defense, then it is justified. the so called "duty to retreat" included a reasonableness standard and proportionality. this new doctrine is more subjective and less demanding. it clouds the notion of reasonable force and opens the door to abuse.

the age old justification standard was working (I have not heard of anyone satisfactorily arguing a legal crisis with the old justification).

lowering the burden on the justification swings too far in the favor of accepting homicide. it's a balancing act. you don't want to justify everything.
 
2012-03-21 10:23:26 AM  

HAMMERTOE: I Said: The difference in this case is that the killer didn't listen to the cops, put himself in "danger" (IF his life was actually threatened at all, which there's no evidence to say it was) and according to 911 calls, executed the kid.

As I stated up thread, this case bears quite a few hallmarks of utilization of actual LEO tactics. Last year, there was a local case of an officer shooting and killing a local punk who was "driving right at him(!)" after the officer intentionally positioned his self in the middle of the road so that the punk would have no other choice. Imagine that. If a police officer wants to shoot you, all he has to do is step off the curb so that you are approaching him with a "deadly weapon" (in the form of your POV). You are toast.


The kid didn't stop the car?
 
2012-03-21 10:25:11 AM  
How can anybody take this backwoods anachronistic fruit-loop seriously?
 
2012-03-21 10:25:33 AM  

LarryDan43: bluehubcap: I got as far as "six year old girl, hunting and eating rabbits and squirrels" and decided that's enough perversion right there. How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?

It's a hunger games prequel.


+1
 
2012-03-21 10:26:35 AM  
She seems like a pretty smart cookie.
giving reasonable people the ability to enjoy their rights shouldn't have to be such a battle.

The current situation may prove to have been an arsehat claiming something that wasn't true and murdering an innocent.
and it seems like that's what happened

but I like her fight, and could put her reason up against the emotion of some whiners

What a horrible, malicious coont.
this woman is insane.
She's a complete asshole
she's bonkers.


welcome to fark
 
2012-03-21 10:26:49 AM  
bluehubcap

karnal: bluehubcap


I got as far as "six year old girl, hunting and eating rabbits and squirrels" and decided that's enough perversion right there. How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?


That's as far as you got? Makes you a lazy reader.
And you consider her "perverse" for growing up hunting and eating her own food? Makes you closed minded.

It was an interesting article.

Please. I've grown up on rabbit pie, venison and moose. I didn't want to shoot them when I was six, though.

Got anything else besides personal insults?


Heigh ho, the dairy-o......You didn't read the entire article - and you decided she was unstable because she took an interest in hunting at a young age. What have you got?
 
2012-03-21 10:27:35 AM  
Your 2nd Amendment rights don't trump my 1st Amendment rights.

Or my rights as a property owner to limit guns in my business.

/gun-owner
//Florida raised
///Hunter
////Think the scales have tipped to far towards gun lobby
 
2012-03-21 10:27:41 AM  

bluehubcap: karnal: bluehubcap


I got as far as "six year old girl, hunting and eating rabbits and squirrels" and decided that's enough perversion right there. How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?


That's as far as you got? Makes you a lazy reader.
And you consider her "perverse" for growing up hunting and eating her own food? Makes you closed minded.

It was an interesting article.

Please. I've grown up on rabbit pie, venison and moose. I didn't want to shoot them when I was six, though.


Some kids are more curious than to accept that food simply appears in the fridge.
My neice was fully in to gardening with her grandmother by age five.
A family that hunts? With adult supervision its probably not usual.
 
2012-03-21 10:28:26 AM  
Since this law passed claims of self defense in killings have gone way up to the tune of twice a week on average last year. Linky (new window)
 
2012-03-21 10:29:00 AM  

bluehubcap: How many mentally stable six year old girls want to eat Thumper?


It depends on how hungry they are.

My youngest tells me she likes to eat veal. She says all serious-like: "Daddy, the cruelty makes it taste better."
 
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