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(Whatever - Scalzi)   One doctor speaks out against transvaginal ultrasound. "If you are forced to enter an image into the patient chart, ultrasound the bedsheets and enter 'poor acoustic window...plus, I'm not a rapist'"   (whatever.scalzi.com) divider line 292
    More: Hero, informed consent, Doonesbury, Thank You So Much, rapists, Mallet of Loving Correction, patients, physicians  
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5922 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Mar 2012 at 10:44 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-21 02:19:29 AM

smooshie: WorldCitizen: I really don't see how the government can get by with forcing something up a woman's vagina without her consent. This is small government, Republicans? The government forcing its way directly into the vagina's of women?

Republicans are about small government for real Americans. You know, straight white Protestant males.


Conservative Christian right-wing republican straight white American males.
 
2012-03-21 02:19:58 AM
Any doctor who doesn't agree with the principles behind this is a farking quack who doesn't even have the professional ethics required to run a two-bit medicine show.
 
2012-03-21 02:22:51 AM

Fark Me To Tears:
Could someone explain to me again how the Republicans want smaller government for themselves, and how they want the government to stop interfering in people's their lives but not anyone who doesn't believe as they do?


fix'd
 
2012-03-21 02:34:56 AM

WorldCitizen: Maybe to assure the safety of future children before a marriage license is issued we should mandate that all women have their vaginas closely inspected inside and out, and all men should have their urethras (way up in there) and prostates checked out. That way, before a really religious man (who would likely support this vaginal ultrasound requirement) waiting for sex for marriage will be at most the second person who has rooted around in his wife's vagina.

Yeah, it's an awful, intrusive, and stupid idea, but is it any worse than what Republicans are coming up with these days?


What I do on Thursday nights is of no concern to anyone....

/and trust me, I have.
//good on the doc for speaking out too.
 
2012-03-21 03:29:43 AM

heap: sno man: The state you live in passes a law that says you must walk off a cliff...
Is the state law breaking the law or is it just you for not walking off the cliff?

i've been trying to follow this conversation, but i gotta ask - have lemmings always given abortions, or is this something new?


Lemmings never throw themselves off of cliffs. Disney lied to us.
 
2012-03-21 03:55:32 AM

doglover: If I insert ANY object into ANY orifice without informed consent, it is rape.

You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you pick your friend's nose without consent and that's rape.


Not as catchy.


FTFY
 
2012-03-21 05:18:35 AM

cchris_39: If we could put the politics aside for a minute and hear from the women....


What would rather have?

1. A trans-vag probe up there looking first, or,

2. A doctor flying blind.

Cuz one for sure is going in. Your body.


Ah. Classic false dichotomy.

"Either trans-vag or doctor going in without a half a clue, despite the procedure in question being performed without a trans-vag scoping thousands of times before...I'm telling you, your choices are..."
 
2012-03-21 06:06:10 AM

idiomagic: I've noticed a lot of people on various sites arguing that since these laws are obviously going to be overturned in court, there's nothing to worry about.

What everyone seems to be ignoring is that until they are overturned, they are the law. It takes years, sometimes decades to overturn a law. In the meantime thousands of women are being raped by government order.

'Being raped', as in right now here in Texas. This has already effected hundreds or thousands of women, and that number will only rise.

Years from now, these laws will almost certainly be overturned. Far too late, for far too many.


They don't call them Rapeublicans for nothing you know.

Trying to get doctors to perform a medically useless procedure purely out of a need of the GOP to control and slut shame women through intimidation and a form of rape is indefensible. I approve of this Doctor's low key civil disobedience and hope other Doctors start speaking up since their professional associations seem to have lost the ability to speak aloud on this important issue.

/Yeah, totes stole "Rapeublicans" from another Farker.
//Good one, eh?
 
2012-03-21 07:09:51 AM

cchris_39: If we could put the politics aside for a minute and hear from the women....


What would rather have?

1. A trans-vag probe up there looking first, or,

2. A doctor flying blind.

Cuz one for sure is going in. Your body.


I'll take a transabdominal ultrasound and mifepristone, neither of which involve anything "going in". Thanks for asking.
 
2012-03-21 07:27:37 AM
Hope there are more doctors like this out there...

I also hope there is a wave of angry citizens who will wash away the scum that proposes regressive bullshiat like this the next time these assholes are up for reelection.

Every time I read about what these religious fascists are doing in other states, I'm a bit happier my family and I live in Massachusetts. Yeah, we got our own problems, but at least we don't have a bunch of ignorant misogynists passing laws like this.

...and fark anyone who supports these laws. Really. fark you. You're the problem.
 
2012-03-21 07:34:54 AM

Fark Me To Tears: Could someone explain to me again how the Republicans want smaller government, and how they want the government to stop interfering in people's lives?


You see, corporations are people, and gays, non-christians, minorities and women are sub-people.
 
2012-03-21 07:39:22 AM

keylock71: Hope there are more doctors like this out there...

I also hope there is a wave of angry citizens who will wash away the scum that proposes regressive bullshiat like this the next time these assholes are up for reelection.

Every time I read about what these religious fascists are doing in other states, I'm a bit happier my family and I live in Massachusetts. Yeah, we got our own problems, but at least we don't have a bunch of ignorant misogynists passing laws like this.

...and fark anyone who supports these laws. Really. fark you. You're the problem.


I'm SOOOO happy that Missouri has a Democratic governor right now. I heard about attempts to repeal all child labor laws some months back..
 
2012-03-21 07:45:21 AM

Alphax: I'm SOOOO happy that Missouri has a Democratic governor right now. I heard about attempts to repeal all child labor laws some months back..


CHARACTER
i.imgur.com
BUILDING
 
2012-03-21 07:45:44 AM
Sorry TFA does not sound like it was written by a doctor. At all. Too many loaded, hipster phrases.

Add that to the fact that it lacks a name -- gotta call BS. Which only underscores how cowardly the medical community is -- in general -- to take any kind of meaningful stand on anything that does not involve giving the medical community more cartel powers. In other words, the rapey mandate might bother them, other mandates/prohibitions, not so much.

Would dearly love to see a brave doc put his or her name to such sentiments and prove me wrong.Takers?
 
2012-03-21 07:55:46 AM

Alphax: keylock71: Hope there are more doctors like this out there...

I also hope there is a wave of angry citizens who will wash away the scum that proposes regressive bullshiat like this the next time these assholes are up for reelection.

Every time I read about what these religious fascists are doing in other states, I'm a bit happier my family and I live in Massachusetts. Yeah, we got our own problems, but at least we don't have a bunch of ignorant misogynists passing laws like this.

...and fark anyone who supports these laws. Really. fark you. You're the problem.

I'm SOOOO happy that Missouri has a Democratic governor right now. I heard about attempts to repeal all child labor laws some months back..


It's like the flood gates of ignorance were opened all at once...

Considering the sheer volume of these types of bills and policies, there is no way this isn't a coordinated effort by the GOP at the national level.

To what end? farked if I know.
 
2012-03-21 07:58:31 AM

Dr. Mojo PhD: Alphax: I'm SOOOO happy that Missouri has a Democratic governor right now. I heard about attempts to repeal all child labor laws some months back..

CHARACTER
[i.imgur.com image 500x428]
BUILDING


They specifically mentioned removing the restrictions on children working in hospitality.. sorry, I don't think 10 year old girls cleaning hotel rooms will end well.
 
2012-03-21 07:59:21 AM

bigbadideasinaction: Snapper Carr: (I was going to propose repeatedly entering a single identical image in affected patient's charts nationwide, as a recognizable visual protest...but I don't have an ultrasound image that I own to the point that I could offer it for that purpose.)

Might I humbly suggest

[i1127.photobucket.com image 390x400]

I was thinking more someone do a "TVU" up someone's ass (I'm sure someone prominent will volunteer) and use that instead.


It's the only way to find the heads of most Republican politicians.
 
2012-03-21 08:30:02 AM

MorrisBird: The silence of the medical establishment is deafening. We have physician Farkers here. Kindly explain this. Because, I don't understand it.


Because the DEA has a funny way of showing up at the front door of "uppity" Docs and demanding copies of their narco scripts for the last 10 years.

Learned this from the guys in Jay, FL.
 
2012-03-21 08:35:05 AM

WorldCitizen: I really don't see how the government can get by with forcing something up a woman's vagina without her consent. This is small government, Republicans? The government forcing its way directly into the vagina's of women?


Haven't you been paying attention to the Republican pundits? These laws aren't invasive and violatory; they are simply there to "inform the consumer". Women are packaging, and if not made aware of their container status, how will they ever fulfill their proper role? As for Men, well this is merely more information they can use to gauge the condition of their property. You wouldn't object to a law allowing a car-owner to watch his engine being overhauled, would you? Really, the luminaries on Fox and Friends have been quite clear on all of this.
 
2012-03-21 08:42:32 AM

sno man: Weaver95: sno man: True enough, there could be a bit of stay-the-hell-out-of-it[publicly]-in-case-they-come-after-us-next too.

I think that's part of it. I think the other part of it is along the lines of 'the GOP cannot possibly be serious about this...nobody is that stupid'. I know that's generally been my reaction to most of what's coming out of the GOP machine these days - sheer disbelief at what i'm seeing and hearing.

And yet every day it's another similar story from a different state.... Hell, there were two yesterday.
They have to be sharing notes.


Of course they are. These laws are all being pushed by the same NGOs, and those NGOs "advise" Republican law makers all over the US. Other Red states didn't look at the debacle in Virginia and decide to follow their lead; they already had these bills written and working their way through committee before Virginia's brought the issue to national prominence.
 
2012-03-21 08:50:49 AM

Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more


But what if a Dr. doing A, B, and C violates another law, as well as professional ethical standards which, given that disbarment is carried out not by the court but by a committee of your peers, is really just a sort of private law that doctors exclusively fall under? The question of whether these requirements violate the rules of the medical profession and more basic law governing such things as malpractice is a real one which needs to be considered. That the legislators passing these laws never bothered to think about this does not change it.
 
2012-03-21 09:01:33 AM

pisceandreamer: disappointing that this is the Weeners I have heard from the medical establishment


Ok, can we FINALLY put the first filter post filter out the window? Its not useful anymore, just annoying.
 
2012-03-21 09:14:52 AM
Looking at what is being presented by the Republican legislators, it appears to me that they are always thinking inside the box.
 
2012-03-21 09:17:51 AM

MindStalker: pisceandreamer: disappointing that this is the Weeners I have heard from the medical establishment

Ok, can we FINALLY put the first filter post filter out the window? Its not useful anymore, just annoying.


It makes people like me feel like I'm smarter than the newer farkers and that is a good thing.
 
2012-03-21 09:19:02 AM

Weaver95: sno man: from a different state.... Hell, there were two yesterday.
They have to be sharing notes.

oh I'm almost postive that there's some sort of coordination going on between the national level and various state party organizations. Nothing wrong with that, least in theory. its just that the end goal of THIS collaboration is perfectly vile and anti-democratic.
.


They are not comparing notes so much as these days legislation isn't written by legislators anymore but written by the national lobbying groups like ALEC. Legislators don't even bother to read it anymore. they just listen to whomever is the highest bidder from the lobbyists. This is why all the legislation is carbon-copy.

tl;dr: US legislation works like street prostitution: The legislators are the whores and the lobbying groups like ALEC are the pimps.
 
2012-03-21 09:19:44 AM

MorrisBird: Hi, doctor! Lawyer here. Why are you anonymous? Where is the AMA arguing against this, because I'm hearing crickets? Your cowardice is noted. Thanks for your help. Love, Women.


Damn that Publius for refusing to stand up to the British tyrants under his own name! He should have been brave enough to get his head shot off at a moment's notice.

/not even hyperbole, given the number of abortion providers who've been injured and killed by religious fanatics
 
2012-03-21 09:19:56 AM
As a woman, I'm going to claim my 3rd Amendment rights are being violated. That amendment doesn't get much attention, probably because of the wording, but if you're open to metaphor, hear me out:

Soldiers of Supply Side Jesus, stay out of the holy temple of my vagina and uterus! They are by invitation only and you may not station your troops there for ANY amount of time!

Amen
 
2012-03-21 09:24:51 AM
If pharmacists can refuse to dispense medications they object to, doctors shouldn't be forced to rape their patients.

Chickens, hen house.

/Your cunning plan. You didn't think it through, did you?
 
2012-03-21 09:34:15 AM

WorldCitizen: I really don't see how the government can get by with forcing something up a woman's vagina without her consent. This is small government, Republicans? The government forcing its way directly into the vagina's of women?


This exposes one of the biggest Republican lies - that they're for "small government".

They use that term as a selling point when it comes to economic matters, but the truth is they want just as much economic control as Democrats do, just for different reasons and to different ends. That Republicans during Bush Jr. were responsible for the largest expansion of government size and power in American history, and it was that Republican President that bailed out badly-run and corrupt banks in 2008, instead of doing the capitalist thing: letting them fail.

They use "small government" just like they use the Constitution: as a sales pitch. They don't mean one word of it.
 
2012-03-21 09:47:31 AM

TheShavingofOccam123: If pharmacists can refuse to dispense medications they object to, doctors shouldn't be forced to rape their patients.

Chickens, hen house.

/Your cunning plan. You didn't think it through, did you?


Great observation. Their chickens have come home too roost (to confuse the analogy)
 
2012-03-21 09:48:13 AM

SilentStrider: MorrisBird: Hi, doctor! Lawyer here. Why are you anonymous? Where is the AMA arguing against this, because I'm hearing crickets? Your cowardice is noted. Thanks for your help. Love, Women.

two words. George Tiller.


If only there was some word for a group that tried to enforce its will on the general public through violence and the threat of further violence...
 
2012-03-21 09:52:49 AM

qorkfiend: SilentStrider: MorrisBird: Hi, doctor! Lawyer here. Why are you anonymous? Where is the AMA arguing against this, because I'm hearing crickets? Your cowardice is noted. Thanks for your help. Love, Women.

two words. George Tiller.

If only there was some word for a group that tried to enforce its will on the general public through violence and the threat of further violence...


But don't you dare call them Terroris---oh, wait....
 
2012-03-21 10:05:21 AM

quatchi: /Yeah, totes stole "Rapeublicans" from another Farker.//Good one, eh?


That Farker was me, and I've been deliberately trying to spread its use. Cheers.

/Rapeublicans
 
2012-03-21 10:18:20 AM

TheShavingofOccam123: If pharmacists can refuse to dispense medications they object to, doctors shouldn't be forced to rape their patients.


The same argument applies in both cases: the woman can just go elsewhere for the service. /never said it was a GOOD argument
 
2012-03-21 10:24:28 AM
Sounds a lot like imposing religious values on people who may not subscribe to them.
 
2012-03-21 10:28:06 AM

sprawl15: TheShavingofOccam123: If pharmacists can refuse to dispense medications they object to, doctors shouldn't be forced to rape their patients.

The same argument applies in both cases: the woman can just go elsewhere for the service. /never said it was a GOOD argument


How does it apply to both if the law forces all doctors to do this?
 
2012-03-21 10:33:00 AM

CPennypacker: How does it apply to both if the law forces all doctors to do this?


It doesn't. It just forces doctors to do it before performing an abortion. They can simply not do that anymore; the law isn't going to force oncologists to go into the Abortionplex and meet the government mandated rape quota. Plus, there's the argument that knowing what you'll have to go through before entering a procedure implies consent (the same 'consent' argument made to defend the TSA's groping of people).
 
2012-03-21 10:33:42 AM
So, how did that "sitting out the 2010 election because I'm disappointed in Obama" work out for you all?
 
2012-03-21 10:35:40 AM

sprawl15: TheShavingofOccam123: If pharmacists can refuse to dispense medications they object to, doctors shouldn't be forced to rape their patients.

The same argument applies in both cases: the woman can just go elsewhere for the service. /never said it was a GOOD argument


In this case, the doctor is already cool with providing the abortion. Doctors have always had the right to provide one or no provide one. Why would the patient want to go somewhere else for the rape?

In this case, the doctor can follow his conscious and just perform the abortion.
 
2012-03-21 10:37:19 AM
The good doc has a point. Legally they cannot perform any medical procedures without informed consent, coercion negates consent, so you explain the procedure, ask if they consent to the procedure, and then ask if there is anyone forcing them to have the procedure, a yes to the last question means the doc can't perform it for fear of being sued/lose their license.
 
2012-03-21 10:40:12 AM

uksocal: The good doc has a point. Legally they cannot perform any medical procedures without informed consent, coercion negates consent, so you explain the procedure, ask if they consent to the procedure, and then ask if there is anyone forcing them to have the procedure, a yes to the last question means the doc can't perform it for fear of being sued/lose their license.


That's why they put liability shields for doctors into the laws.
 
2012-03-21 10:41:41 AM

monoski: Sounds a lot like imposing religious values on people who may not subscribe to them.


Pro-lifery generally does
 
2012-03-21 10:45:23 AM

mrshowrules: In this case, the doctor is already cool with providing the abortion.


And raping the patient would become part of performing an abortion. Technically no different than a doctor objecting to sanitizing his work area before performing an abortion; if he doesn't want to do that, he doesn't get to (legally) perform one.

I imagine the quality level of illegal (or right-across-the-border) abortions would skyrocket. "Rape-free" is a pretty solid marketing angle.
 
2012-03-21 10:49:32 AM

sprawl15: mrshowrules: In this case, the doctor is already cool with providing the abortion.

And raping the patient would become part of performing an abortion. Technically no different than a doctor objecting to sanitizing his work area before performing an abortion; if he doesn't want to do that, he doesn't get to (legally) perform one.

I imagine the quality level of illegal (or right-across-the-border) abortions would skyrocket. "Rape-free" is a pretty solid marketing angle.


chan.catiewayne.com

Shiat... I like "rape" but I also really like "free". I haz a conundrum
 
2012-03-21 10:50:37 AM

sprawl15: mrshowrules: In this case, the doctor is already cool with providing the abortion.

And raping the patient would become part of performing an abortion. Technically no different than a doctor objecting to sanitizing his work area before performing an abortion; if he doesn't want to do that, he doesn't get to (legally) perform one.

I imagine the quality level of illegal (or right-across-the-border) abortions would skyrocket. "Rape-free" is a pretty solid marketing angle.


Until the state passes a law making it illegal for a woman to leave the state to get an abortion, or a neighboring state makes it illegal for out-of-state women to get abortions or makes them illegal entirely...
 
2012-03-21 10:58:39 AM

MorrisBird: Hi, doctor! Lawyer here. Why are you anonymous? Where is the AMA arguing against this, because I'm hearing crickets? Your cowardice is noted. Thanks for your help. Love, Women.


There's this:

Link (new window)

(you may have to click on "Public Health" to see it)

But, man, was that buried on their website. Nothing in the more obvious "Press Releases" section of the website:

Link (new window)
 
Ook
2012-03-21 10:59:25 AM
clearly all doctors should claim to be members of a religion that bans unnecessary use of trans-vaginal ultrasound and use the lovely defenses that the current republican candidates have been claiming for catholic employers who can't be required by a law to do something against their religion
 
2012-03-21 11:24:13 AM

sno man: Like any one of the recent parenting books that flip he for she and back about five times in each story... Stop! Pick one and go with it.


I'm glad I'm not the only one super annoyed by this. You're trying to read about pregnancy or breastfeeding or whatever, but all you're noticing is how often they're switching up pronouns for the baby. As if it's a mortal offense to just pick a pronoun and run with it.
 
2012-03-21 11:25:52 AM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: sno man: Like any one of the recent parenting books that flip he for she and back about five times in each story... Stop! Pick one and go with it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one super annoyed by this. You're trying to read about pregnancy or breastfeeding or whatever, but all you're noticing is how often they're switching up pronouns for the baby. As if it's a mortal offense to just pick a pronoun and run with it.


thirded
 
2012-03-21 11:26:52 AM

sprawl15: mrshowrules: In this case, the doctor is already cool with providing the abortion.

And raping the patient would become part of performing an abortion. Technically no different than a doctor objecting to sanitizing his work area before performing an abortion; if he doesn't want to do that, he doesn't get to (legally) perform one.

I imagine the quality level of illegal (or right-across-the-border) abortions would skyrocket. "Rape-free" is a pretty solid marketing angle.


If part of the procedure is medically unnecessary it wouldn't be the same thing. Is there any other example where a doctor is compelled to follow a non-medically necessary procedure by the State?

It is a religious procedure you are asking the doctor to perform. Imagine if a Sharia law was passed by a State that a women's husband had to be in the room whenever she was being examined by a man.
 
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