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(Whatever - Scalzi)   One doctor speaks out against transvaginal ultrasound. "If you are forced to enter an image into the patient chart, ultrasound the bedsheets and enter 'poor acoustic window...plus, I'm not a rapist'"   (whatever.scalzi.com) divider line 292
    More: Hero, informed consent, Doonesbury, Thank You So Much, rapists, Mallet of Loving Correction, patients, physicians  
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5922 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Mar 2012 at 10:44 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-20 11:26:34 PM
I have had many TVUs, both pregnant and non pregnant. I volunteer my images for this purpose, provided my personal info is removed. You can have my babies who are alive and well, my healthy babies who didn't make it, my babies with issues who didn't make it, or my ovarian cycts. Take your pick. Whatever works.

I think you should contact the blogger and offer.
lol, the cyst one works - it wasn't an abortion, it was the removal of a cyst!
 
2012-03-20 11:27:29 PM

sno man: Lionel Mandrake:
Now, wanna answer my question, or change the subject again?

That you think I'm changing the subject is exactly the problem here.

A doctor takes an oath to do no harm to become a doctor. This law forces them to break that oath. This law is probably in violation of federal laws as well. But you seem to feel they need to follow it blindly. So I guess you would walk off that cliff...


Goodnight.
 
2012-03-20 11:28:21 PM

herrDrFarkenstein: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

Duh, that's civil disobedience defined.


The problem with a doctor refusing to follow this law is that the patient also can't follow the law and fulfill the requisite needed to obtain an abortion.. Therefore the doctor still can't perform the abortion.
 
2012-03-20 11:28:38 PM

MFAWG: Oh, somebody has an EXTRA sandy vagina tonight!


That's OK. I won't hold it against you.
 
2012-03-20 11:29:40 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Kar98: Lionel Mandrake: Jesus. You can't even just admit that he broke the law, however stupid it might be?

In this internet lawyer's opinion, you can't "break" a law that's illegal.

4th:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

In order to violate an individual's right to bodily integrity, the state has to show probable cause - that is, the state must have some evidence that the person who is subject to government scrutiny is engaged in criminal activity.

Unless the Supreme Court declares otherwise, the fact remains that in getting an abortion, an individual is not engaging in criminal activity but in lawful activity in keeping with the U.S. Supreme Court's declaration in Roe v. Wade that abortion is a constitutional right.

Ergo, any such state law violates the US Constitution and the general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose.

The good doctor would therefor NOT have, in actuality, broken any law.

I rest my case.

OK, great answer, thanks.

But would you not be arrested, charged, tried, and (possibly) convicted anyway? You violated a law on the books, right? Hopefully, an appeal to higher court would result in a verdict of "this law is bullshiat, it is overturned and the defendant is free," but until then, wouldn't you still be considered a criminal (ie, law breaker)?


I'd certainly be willing to offer a meager financial contribution to fund a test case, but lacking both a vagina as well as a doctorin' license, that's all I could do. I did encourage Mrs. Kar to send a monetary gift to the ACLU the other day, for that very reason. To me this issue seems very clear cut, but SCOTUS acts in mysterious ways.
 
2012-03-20 11:30:01 PM
(I was going to propose repeatedly entering a single identical image in affected patient's charts nationwide, as a recognizable visual protest...but I don't have an ultrasound image that I own to the point that I could offer it for that purpose.)

Might I humbly suggest

i1127.photobucket.com
 
2012-03-20 11:32:20 PM

Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake:
Now, wanna answer my question, or change the subject again?

That you think I'm changing the subject is exactly the problem here.

A doctor takes an oath to do no harm to become a doctor. This law forces them to break that oath. This law is probably in violation of federal laws as well. But you seem to feel they need to follow it blindly. So I guess you would walk off that cliff...

Goodnight.


Sleep tight.
 
2012-03-20 11:32:51 PM

MorrisBird: Hi, doctor! Lawyer here. Why are you anonymous? Where is the AMA arguing against this, because I'm hearing crickets? Your cowardice is noted. Thanks for your help. Love, Women.


have you seen what governments are doing to federal funding? Nobody is safe to argue against their government in this century. The twentieth century was the era of free speech. ...You twenty-first century legal eagles helped get us to the point where the AMA is shiatting itself in fear when their own members need to speak out.
 
2012-03-20 11:33:03 PM

MorrisBird: Hi, doctor! Lawyer here. Why are you anonymous? Where is the AMA arguing against this, because I'm hearing crickets? Your cowardice is noted. Thanks for your help. Love, Women.



Where the hell is the ABA, ALI, etc in all this...you know the actual practitioners of law...seems relevant since we're talking about drafting laws.
 
2012-03-20 11:33:49 PM
i'm starting to think that whole global thermonuclear war thing may not have been such a bad idea.
 
2012-03-20 11:34:07 PM

MorrisBird: Britney Spear's Speculum: We didn't go through 10 years of school to get picked off by fundies exercising their "2nd Amendment Option"

You have an organization, just like we do. Ours is called the AJA (this week), yours is the AMA. They are supposed to speak for you so you don't face this threat. Where are they?


They didn't go through 10 years of school to get picked off by fundies exercising their "2nd Amendment Option"

The AMA is a very powerful lobby, they don't need to go on TV to demand legislators fix things.
 
2012-03-20 11:34:47 PM

Weaver95: there's also a slight chance that the AMA is having a debate about this behind the scenes.


Fark a debate. There's no justification for not making a statement like the following:

"We, as an organization, are vehemently opposed to any law which compels patients to undergo any procedure or treatment which is not medically necessary. As doctors, we have sworn to abide by the Hippocratic Oath: 'First, do no harm', and we as a profession would join together in our disobedience of any law which contradicts that principle."
 
2012-03-20 11:35:24 PM

heap: i'm starting to think that whole global thermonuclear war thing may not have been such a bad idea.


Would you like to play a game?
 
2012-03-20 11:36:04 PM

poot_rootbeer: Weaver95: there's also a slight chance that the AMA is having a debate about this behind the scenes.

Fark a debate. There's no justification for not making a statement like the following:

"We, as an organization, are vehemently opposed to any law which compels patients to undergo any procedure or treatment which is not medically necessary. As doctors, we have sworn to abide by the Hippocratic Oath: 'First, do no harm', and we as a profession would join together in our disobedience of any law which contradicts that principle."


problem is - if doctors do something like that then they'll be viciously and relentlessly attacked in return. ya gotta be smarter than the attack dogs.
 
2012-03-20 11:36:04 PM

namegoeshere: I was going to propose repeatedly entering a single identical image in affected patient's charts nationwide, as a recognizable visual protest...but I don't have an ultrasound image that I own to the point that I could offer it for that purpose

I have had many TVUs, both pregnant and non pregnant. I volunteer my images for this purpose, provided my personal info is removed. You can have my babies who are alive and well, my healthy babies who didn't make it, my babies with issues who didn't make it, or my ovarian cycts. Take your pick. Whatever works.

Personally, I think the ovarian cycts would be lulzy. "Of course it's a fetus. Why else would she be having an abortion?"


Careful now. Talk like that will lead to every woman's uterus being ultrasounded as part of a permanent womanfolk registry.
 
2012-03-20 11:36:18 PM
I certainly wish someone would stand up against them being able to lie to you as well in some cases - abortion links to breast cancer, lie about the status of the fetus to ensure the mother doesn't have an abortion that may save her (mother's) life, etc. Just disgusting. If we can't trust the health information from our doctors, what do we do? All of us take out loans and go to medical school?
 
2012-03-20 11:36:22 PM
I wonder if the ACLU will sue the governments that make these laws, because they don't sound remotely constitutional.
 
2012-03-20 11:37:28 PM

Sabyen91: heap: i'm starting to think that whole global thermonuclear war thing may not have been such a bad idea.

Would you like to play a game?


i'd probably push the pretty red button. besides, chess is boring.
 
2012-03-20 11:39:25 PM

heap: Sabyen91: heap: i'm starting to think that whole global thermonuclear war thing may not have been such a bad idea.

Would you like to play a game?

i'd probably push the pretty red button. besides, chess is boring.


Well, that wouldn't make a very good movie.
 
2012-03-20 11:39:41 PM

Lionel Mandrake: So that makes them legal?


The willingness of the general population to follow said law. Any law, if ignored by enough people, is impossible to enforce. Any law that would cause the people to rise up and say, "fark this shiat!" is most likely an unjust law. A government that continues to impose these unjust laws despite general denouncement is destined to fall.

No, I don't think there's going to be a revolution over this. I am going to enjoy watching the GOP meltdown, though.
 
2012-03-20 11:40:34 PM

Kar98: I'd certainly be willing to offer a meager financial contribution to fund a test case, but lacking both a vagina as well as a doctorin' license, that's all I could do. I did encourage Mrs. Kar to send a monetary gift to the ACLU the other day, for that very reason. To me this issue seems very clear cut, but SCOTUS acts in mysterious ways.


Yeah, I hear ya.

Maybe it's overly philosophical, but I was wondering, "if a guy violates a law on the books (breaks the law), then ultimately, maybe even years later is acquitted and released when a higher court declares the law unconstitutional, can he still be said to be a law-breaker?" At least between the period of his conviction and acquittal?
 
2012-03-20 11:42:03 PM

Dr. Mojo PhD: sno man: If they made a law that required you to walk off a tall cliff, would you?

No. I'd still be breaking the law. You seem to be confusing legality for what is just, fair, and morally right. They aren't the same.


sorry about the shush earlier, didn't want Mandrake to get any ideas.

So okay, there is a Federal Law against walking off a cliff, and to do what you do for a living you have to take an oath to not walk off a cliff. The state you live in passes a law that says you must walk off a cliff...
Is the state law breaking the law or is it just you for not walking off the cliff?
 
2012-03-20 11:42:38 PM

OgreMagi: Lionel Mandrake: So that makes them legal?

The willingness of the general population to follow said law. Any law, if ignored by enough people, is impossible to enforce. Any law that would cause the people to rise up and say, "fark this shiat!" is most likely an unjust law. A government that continues to impose these unjust laws despite general denouncement is destined to fall.

No, I don't think there's going to be a revolution over this. I am going to enjoy watching the GOP meltdown, though.


I always get a kick out of the people who think that MORE laws will stop things like...file trading or the use of illegal drugs.
 
2012-03-20 11:43:53 PM

Sabyen91: heap: Sabyen91: heap: i'm starting to think that whole global thermonuclear war thing may not have been such a bad idea.

Would you like to play a game?

i'd probably push the pretty red button. besides, chess is boring.

Well, that wouldn't make a very good movie.


true, but who needs fiction when reality is this twisted.
 
2012-03-20 11:44:07 PM

OgreMagi: Lionel Mandrake: So that makes them legal?

The willingness of the general population to follow said law. Any law, if ignored by enough people, is impossible to enforce. Any law that would cause the people to rise up and say, "fark this shiat!" is most likely an unjust law. A government that continues to impose these unjust laws despite general denouncement is destined to fall.


That doesn't un-illegal it. But it does promote jury nullification.

OgreMagi: I am going to enjoy watching the GOP meltdown, though.


HELL YEAH!
 
2012-03-20 11:44:29 PM
The Department of Justice (new window) defines rape thusly: ""The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

So this would be rape-rape, then.
 
2012-03-20 11:45:11 PM
Ate the link: http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/1801
 
2012-03-20 11:45:48 PM
National District Attorneys Association? Would be nice if they spoke up against this issue...especially since they're prosecutors.
 
2012-03-20 11:46:32 PM

OgreMagi: Lionel Mandrake: So that makes them legal?

The willingness of the general population to follow said law. Any law, if ignored by enough people, is impossible to enforce. Any law that would cause the people to rise up and say, "fark this shiat!" is most likely an unjust law. A government that continues to impose these unjust laws despite general denouncement is destined to fall.

No, I don't think there's going to be a revolution over this. I am going to enjoy watching the GOP meltdown, though.


Go to any protest thread on Fark or even better any police brutality thread you will get "You should have followed the farking law" or "You should have stopped wiggling after they tazed you". And Fark is pretty liberal.
 
2012-03-20 11:47:09 PM
Politics at its finest......

1. Good luck getting any surgical procedure done WITHOUT diagnostic imaging (yeah, even a tooth pulled).

2. If doctors insisted on aborting without the slightest imaging protocol - even something safe, readily available and cheap like ultrasound - the pro choice crowd would be screaming bloody murder (pun intended) about how unsafe it was to "women's health".

3. Good luck finding a surgeon who will perform any other surgery (yeah, even a tooth pulled) without parental consent.

If this was anything but abortion, it would be beyond malpractice. It would be criminal.

/finally, good luck with undected ectopic pregnancy or any other serious problem you insist isn't found in advance.
 
2012-03-20 11:47:14 PM

sno man: The state you live in passes a law that says you must walk off a cliff...
Is the state law breaking the law or is it just you for not walking off the cliff?


i've been trying to follow this conversation, but i gotta ask - have lemmings always given abortions, or is this something new?
 
2012-03-20 11:47:26 PM

heap: Sabyen91: heap: Sabyen91: heap: i'm starting to think that whole global thermonuclear war thing may not have been such a bad idea.

Would you like to play a game?

i'd probably push the pretty red button. besides, chess is boring.

Well, that wouldn't make a very good movie.

true, but who needs fiction when reality is this twisted.


Mental escape?
 
2012-03-20 11:47:31 PM

JK47: National District Attorneys Association? Would be nice if they spoke up against this issue...especially since they're prosecutors.


I think the ones still retaining their souls would find ways to not enforce the law very closely.
 
2012-03-20 11:48:33 PM

cchris_39: 1. Good luck getting any surgical procedure done WITHOUT diagnostic imaging (yeah, even a tooth pulled).


Oh, Christ are a sack of shiat. This has zero to do with the procedure. And you know it.
 
2012-03-20 11:48:47 PM

OgreMagi: The willingness of the general population to follow said law. Any law, if ignored by enough people, is impossible to enforce."



Got a kid, wife, or anyone relying on you to help provide and care for them? Responsibility is a biatch like that.
 
2012-03-20 11:48:59 PM

MorrisBird: Hi, doctor! Lawyer here. Why are you anonymous? Where is the AMA arguing against this, because I'm hearing crickets? Your cowardice is noted. Thanks for your help. Love, Women.


The last thing the Conservative movement needs is internet lawyers chiming in. Please carry on with your previous endeavors.
 
2012-03-20 11:50:09 PM

Sabyen91: heap: Sabyen91: heap: Sabyen91: heap: i'm starting to think that whole global thermonuclear war thing may not have been such a bad idea.

Would you like to play a game?

i'd probably push the pretty red button. besides, chess is boring.

Well, that wouldn't make a very good movie.

true, but who needs fiction when reality is this twisted.

Mental escape?


that works, until dystopian epics starts looking like the evening news. mental escape, escaped mental patient...we've all gotta have hobbies, but i'm leaning towards the latter.
 
2012-03-20 11:51:58 PM

RandomExcess: The last thing the Conservative movement needs...


i don't think a 5 cent cigar would help, either.

what they need is a 'reset to factory sane settings' button.
 
2012-03-20 11:52:01 PM

heap: Sabyen91: heap: Sabyen91: heap: Sabyen91: heap: i'm starting to think that whole global thermonuclear war thing may not have been such a bad idea.

Would you like to play a game?

i'd probably push the pretty red button. besides, chess is boring.

Well, that wouldn't make a very good movie.

true, but who needs fiction when reality is this twisted.

Mental escape?

that works, until dystopian epics starts looking like the evening news. mental escape, escaped mental patient...we've all gotta have hobbies, but i'm leaning towards the latter.


Then you get Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
 
2012-03-20 11:53:18 PM
And before we start pointing fingers at professions lets keep in mind that there are far more licensed attorneys involved in supporting these bills than doctors. And it's almost certain that each of those attorney's is considered to be ethical members of their respective bars.
 
2012-03-20 11:53:27 PM

RandomExcess: The last thing the Conservative movement needs is internet lawyers chiming in.


Good thing I'm a liberal then.
 
2012-03-20 11:53:37 PM

MorrisBird: Britney Spear's Speculum: We didn't go through 10 years of school to get picked off by fundies exercising their "2nd Amendment Option"

You have an organization, just like we do. Ours is called the AJA (this week), yours is the AMA. They are supposed to speak for you so you don't face this threat. Where are they?


The AMA is pretty conservative organisation and doesn't really represent most doctors. Less than 1/3 of American physicians are members of the AMA and half are retired. Out of kids coming out of med school the only ones joining the AMA are the good ole boys and fundies who don't believe in evolution. Your point still stands that another organisation hasn't said anything but just wanted to point out that the AMA is an old, dying organisation filled with mostly old white men.
 
2012-03-20 11:54:03 PM

MFAWG: Oh, FFS! Everybody calm down for a minute, so you can see what kind of RUBES you all are.

This is the same old bullshiat they've been pulling for 30 years. Pass a bullshiat law that's not going to stand up for 5 minutes in any court in the land, and then biatch about Librul Activist Judges while fundraising.

DUH!


The Texas law has been in effect since February. It has already impacted hundreds, if not thousands of Texas women.
 
2012-03-20 11:54:32 PM

Sabyen91:
Then you get Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.


i just pictured Rick Santorum on adrenochrome....and it really was an improvement.
 
2012-03-20 11:55:47 PM

zelachang: MorrisBird: Britney Spear's Speculum: We didn't go through 10 years of school to get picked off by fundies exercising their "2nd Amendment Option"

You have an organization, just like we do. Ours is called the AJA (this week), yours is the AMA. They are supposed to speak for you so you don't face this threat. Where are they?

The AMA is pretty conservative organisation and doesn't really represent most doctors. Less than 1/3 of American physicians are members of the AMA and half are retired. Out of kids coming out of med school the only ones joining the AMA are the good ole boys and fundies who don't believe in evolution. Your point still stands that another organisation hasn't said anything but just wanted to point out that the AMA is an old, dying organisation filled with mostly old white men.


Yeah, the AMA supports the HMO's in most cases. It is about money for them, not ideals.
 
2012-03-20 11:56:56 PM

JK47: And before we start pointing fingers at professions lets keep in mind that there are far more licensed attorneys involved in supporting these bills than doctors. And it's almost certain that each of those attorney's is considered to be ethical members of their respective bars.


Agreed. Our professional organizations need to speak out against this nonsense. They are supposed to represent us. We pay them a lot of dues. Where are they?
 
2012-03-20 11:56:56 PM
I'm a radiologist, not an ob-gyn so I don't do abortions. I don't procedures that are not medically indicated. I don't them whether it's the patient asking for it or another MD. And I'm sure as hell not going to do one just because some worthless self-important politician says I have to do one. If that means I have to break the law in order to practice proper medicine, then the law can just go fark itself.
 
2012-03-20 11:57:10 PM

JK47: OgreMagi: The willingness of the general population to follow said law. Any law, if ignored by enough people, is impossible to enforce."


Got a kid, wife, or anyone relying on you to help provide and care for them? Responsibility is a biatch like that.


There's no denying that. Most people will put up with major political problems in the country so long as they can keep a roof of their heads and feed and cloth their children. Once their kids start going hungry, though, all bets are off.
 
2012-03-20 11:57:16 PM

heap: sno man: The state you live in passes a law that says you must walk off a cliff...
Is the state law breaking the law or is it just you for not walking off the cliff?

i've been trying to follow this conversation, but i gotta ask - have lemmings always given abortions, or is this something new?


Not sure about the lemmings. The idea is often called an analogy. It may well not be a great one. It's late.
How about reading my whole post you copied some of and replace "walk off a cliff" with "do harm"...
and pretend the you is a doctor.
 
2012-03-20 11:58:22 PM

Snapper Carr: (I was going to propose repeatedly entering a single identical image in affected patient's charts nationwide, as a recognizable visual protest...but I don't have an ultrasound image that I own to the point that I could offer it for that purpose.)

Might I humbly suggest

[i1127.photobucket.com image 390x400]


I was thinking more someone do a "TVU" up someone's ass (I'm sure someone prominent will volunteer) and use that instead.
 
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