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(Whatever - Scalzi)   One doctor speaks out against transvaginal ultrasound. "If you are forced to enter an image into the patient chart, ultrasound the bedsheets and enter 'poor acoustic window...plus, I'm not a rapist'"   (whatever.scalzi.com) divider line 292
    More: Hero, informed consent, Doonesbury, Thank You So Much, rapists, Mallet of Loving Correction, patients, physicians  
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5922 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Mar 2012 at 10:44 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-20 09:43:38 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: I'm not talking about O'Keefe. I'm saying that if the Doctor is, by law, required to perform this procedure and proof is provided that he didn't, and he fudged it to seem like he did, he is clearly breaking the law.


Ah, I see. By mentioning him you weren't talking about him.

Got it.
 
2012-03-20 09:47:49 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Lionel Mandrake: I'm not talking about O'Keefe. I'm saying that if the Doctor is, by law, required to perform this procedure and proof is provided that he didn't, and he fudged it to seem like he did, he is clearly breaking the law.

Ah, I see. By mentioning him you weren't talking about him.

Got it.


Quit splitting hairs, any idiot can see what the guy is saying. That said, even if it is literally breaking the law,

Weaver95: good luck proving that in court. and even if you DO prove it in court, good luck getting a conviction.

 
2012-03-20 09:53:27 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: , he is clearly breaking the law.


Except, the law also says it is wrong for a doctor to harm a patient. Plus there's the whole professional ethics thing.
 
2012-03-20 10:05:38 PM  
FTFA: This time, it's the politicians who want to use us to implement their morally reprehensible legislation. They want to use our ultrasound machines to invade women's bodies, and they want our hands to be at the controls.

Could someone explain to me again how the Republicans want smaller government, and how they want the government to stop interfering in people's lives?
 
2012-03-20 10:05:53 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Lionel Mandrake: , he is clearly breaking the law.

Except, the law also says it is wrong for a doctor to harm a patient. Plus there's the whole professional ethics thing.


Only Republican laws matter, dur.
 
2012-03-20 10:10:01 PM  
What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more
 
2012-03-20 10:12:18 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more


True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed.
 
2012-03-20 10:14:55 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?


Because you had put it in layers of fancy verbiage, which you're not terribly good at using, you weren't saying what you think you were saying.

Yes, he would be breaking the law. As Weaver, et al, said, however, good luck proving it.

/especially when relying on someone like O'Keefe
 
2012-03-20 10:20:15 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

Because you had put it in layers of fancy verbiage, which you're not terribly good at using, you weren't saying what you think you were saying.

Yes, he would be breaking the law. As Weaver, et al, said, however, good luck proving it.

/especially when relying on someone like O'Keefe


First, I said James O'Keefe TYPES, not him specifically. I also mentioned hidden cameras. If they had one that clearly showed the Dr NOT doing the required procedure, but clearly sticking the wand in the bedsheets...that may not be absolutely incontrovertible truth (I'm no law talking guy), but it's pretty fkn strong evidence.

And you're not terribly good at reading comprehension. So neener neener neener
 
2012-03-20 10:21:48 PM  

WorldCitizen: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed.


Not my point, at all. My point was that if he doesn't follow the law, he is breaking it. That's all.

I agree the law is atrocious and shouldn't be followed.
 
2012-03-20 10:22:00 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more


Well that seems abundantly clear. You probably couldn't get more dumb.
I'm gonna quote World here, 'cause I don't have better words to say the same thing...
"True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed."
 
2012-03-20 10:25:28 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Because you had put it in layers of fancy verbiage, which you're not terribly good at using, you weren't saying what you think you were saying.


...really?

Lionel Mandrake: If the bill passes it's not "breaking the law," it's breaking the law.

As much as it sucks.


Lionel Mandrake: I'm not talking about O'Keefe. I'm saying that if the Doctor is, by law, required to perform this procedure and proof is provided that he didn't, and he fudged it to seem like he did, he is clearly breaking the law.


Is plain English considered "layers of fancy verbiage" now?
 
2012-03-20 10:28:38 PM  

sno man: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

Well that seems abundantly clear. You probably couldn't get more dumb.
I'm gonna quote World here, 'cause I don't have better words to say the same thing...
"True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed."


So that makes them legal?

Who's dumb?
 
2012-03-20 10:34:17 PM  
I don't quite understand why people are jumping over Lionel Mandrake, when he makes a good point. Since some people here are lacking in reading comprehension tonight, here is his point.

This doctor is probably staying anonymous because he outlines what he is going to do to break the law if this law passes. He doesn't want people coming into his office with a hidden camera setting him up to be caught if the law passes and he does start breaking it.

Now, my part to add... While a jury might not convict him, he still needs a medical license and a job to practice medicine. He may not be convicted, but he may lose his job and his license. While I'm sure all you Farkers would be fine with that outcome, not all people are, and some would prefer to remain anonymous so it doesn't come to that.

There, was that so hard?
 
2012-03-20 10:38:20 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

Well that seems abundantly clear. You probably couldn't get more dumb.
I'm gonna quote World here, 'cause I don't have better words to say the same thing...
"True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed."

So that makes them legal?

Who's dumb?


The laws, or the defiance of them?
I might remind you America exists because of the 'defiance of' option.
 
2012-03-20 10:40:18 PM  

sno man: The laws, or the defiance of them?
I might remind you America exists because of the 'defiance of' option.


Yes and no. It wasn't defiance of the laws as much as the creation without being consulted, plus some rich merchants being pissed at their shrinking overhead due to a monopoly out of their control.
 
2012-03-20 10:45:03 PM  

sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

Well that seems abundantly clear. You probably couldn't get more dumb.
I'm gonna quote World here, 'cause I don't have better words to say the same thing...
"True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed."

So that makes them legal?

Who's dumb?

The laws, or the defiance of them?
I might remind you America exists because of the 'defiance of' option.


You're avoiding a very simple question. Lets try again. And this has nothing to do with moral conviction or the likelihood of being charged, or the likelihood of being convicted. Let's keep it simple and direct.

A) State law requires that a physician performs procedure X
B) Physician does not perform procedure X

Has he:

1) Broken the law, or
2) Not broken the law?
 
2012-03-20 10:50:22 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

Well that seems abundantly clear. You probably couldn't get more dumb.
I'm gonna quote World here, 'cause I don't have better words to say the same thing...
"True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed."

So that makes them legal?

Who's dumb?

The laws, or the defiance of them?
I might remind you America exists because of the 'defiance of' option.

You're avoiding a very simple question. Lets try again. And this has nothing to do with moral conviction or the likelihood of being charged, or the likelihood of being convicted. Let's keep it simple and direct.

A) State law requires that a physician performs procedure X
B) Physician does not perform procedure X

Has he:

1) Broken the law, or
2) Not broken the law?


State or local law requires you to drive 30MPH on a road designed to be driven at 45.
You drive 45.

1) you did break the law.
2) Why the fark is this law on the books?
 
2012-03-20 10:53:10 PM  

SilentStrider: You know, I just had a thought. If rape really is more about control than sex (and I've no reason to doubt this), then what does that say about Republicans?

It says they really really want to control women's bodies.


Are you only just figuring that out now? Bless.
 
2012-03-20 10:55:57 PM  
Oh, FFS! Everybody calm down for a minute, so you can see what kind of RUBES you all are.

This is the same old bullshiat they've been pulling for 30 years. Pass a bullshiat law that's not going to stand up for 5 minutes in any court in the land, and then biatch about Librul Activist Judges while fundraising.

DUH!
 
2012-03-20 10:58:21 PM  

sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

Well that seems abundantly clear. You probably couldn't get more dumb.
I'm gonna quote World here, 'cause I don't have better words to say the same thing...
"True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed."

So that makes them legal?

Who's dumb?

The laws, or the defiance of them?
I might remind you America exists because of the 'defiance of' option.

You're avoiding a very simple question. Lets try again. And this has nothing to do with moral conviction or the likelihood of being charged, or the likelihood of being convicted. Let's keep it simple and direct.

A) State law requires that a physician performs procedure X
B) Physician does not perform procedure X

Has he:

1) Broken the law, or
2) Not broken the law?

State or local law requires you to drive 30MPH on a road designed to be driven at 45.
You drive 45.

1) you did break the law.
2) Why the fark is this law on the books?


Jesus. You can't even just admit that he broke the law, however stupid it might be?

1)Yes, I broke the law
2) separate issue

My question:

1) Yes, he broke the law

Agree or not? Man up and answer the fkn question
 
2012-03-20 10:58:30 PM  

Weaver95: Lionel Mandrake: I'm saying that if the Doctor is, by law, required to perform this procedure and proof is provided that he didn't, and he fudged it to seem like he did, he is clearly breaking the law.

good luck proving that in court. and even if you DO prove it in court, good luck getting a conviction.


Criminal Defense Attorney in that case: Let me be clear. This is the first time, possibly ever anywhere, that a person has been put on trial for NOT raping another person.

Jury: encrypted-tbn3.google.com
 
2012-03-20 10:59:13 PM  

MFAWG: Oh, FFS! Everybody calm down for a minute, so you can see what kind of RUBES you all are.

This is the same old bullshiat they've been pulling for 30 years. Pass a bullshiat law that's not going to stand up for 5 minutes in any court in the land, and then biatch about Librul Activist Judges while fundraising.

DUH!


i'm pretty sure that makes the fundraising supporters rubes, not the people calling it a terrible law that cant get in front of a libural activist judge soon enough.
 
2012-03-20 10:59:51 PM  

MFAWG: Oh, FFS! Everybody calm down for a minute, so you can see what kind of RUBES you all are.

This is the same old bullshiat they've been pulling for 30 years. Pass a bullshiat law that's not going to stand up for 5 minutes in any court in the land, and then biatch about Librul Activist Judges while fundraising.

DUH!


Thank you for showing us the Way, oh Wise One. Now kindly go to another thread if you're so fkn frustrated by us rubes.
 
2012-03-20 11:03:39 PM  
More and more often in this country, doing the right thing *requires* breaking the law.
 
2012-03-20 11:03:58 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Jesus. You can't even just admit that he broke the law, however stupid it might be?


I gotta agree with you here. It's law-breaking. It's just law-breaking, like freeing slaves when slavery was legal, but it's law-breaking. So often people confuse what lawyers and judges call "the justice system" with a system that's actually concerned with justice. As a civilized society, we strive to make the law as just as possible, but the two are not synonymous. What is legal is not always just, and what is just is not always legal. Them's just the breaks.
 
2012-03-20 11:06:47 PM  

MorrisBird: Hi, doctor! Lawyer here. Why are you anonymous? Where is the AMA arguing against this, because I'm hearing crickets? Your cowardice is noted. Thanks for your help. Love, Women.


I bet you're one of those people who goes to Disneyland and biatches when you get everything because it WASN'T given to you on a golden platter, amirite?
 
2012-03-20 11:07:07 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Jesus. You can't even just admit that he broke the law, however stupid it might be?


In this internet lawyer's opinion, you can't "break" a law that's illegal.

4th:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

In order to violate an individual's right to bodily integrity, the state has to show probable cause - that is, the state must have some evidence that the person who is subject to government scrutiny is engaged in criminal activity.

Unless the Supreme Court declares otherwise, the fact remains that in getting an abortion, an individual is not engaging in criminal activity but in lawful activity in keeping with the U.S. Supreme Court's declaration in Roe v. Wade that abortion is a constitutional right.

Ergo, any such state law violates the US Constitution and the general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose.

The good doctor would therefor NOT have, in actuality, broken any law.

I rest my case.
 
2012-03-20 11:07:36 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

Well that seems abundantly clear. You probably couldn't get more dumb.
I'm gonna quote World here, 'cause I don't have better words to say the same thing...
"True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed."

So that makes them legal?

Who's dumb?

The laws, or the defiance of them?
I might remind you America exists because of the 'defiance of' option.

You're avoiding a very simple question. Lets try again. And this has nothing to do with moral conviction or the likelihood of being charged, or the likelihood of being convicted. Let's keep it simple and direct.

A) State law requires that a physician performs procedure X
B) Physician does not perform procedure X

Has he:

1) Broken the law, or
2) Not broken the law?

State or local law requires you to drive 30MPH on a road designed to be driven at 45.
You drive 45.

1) you did break the law.
2) Why the fark is this law on the books?

Jesus. You can't even just admit that he broke the law, however stupid it might be?

1)Yes, I broke the law
2) separate issue

My question:

1) Yes, he broke the law

Agree or not? Man up and answer the fkn question


If they made a law that required you to walk off a tall cliff, would you?
 
2012-03-20 11:09:19 PM  
Physician.
Never been a member of the AMA. I don't agree with a lot of what they do as I am a pediatric doctor and they function as a branch of the AARP.
I think there should be outrage from the OB/GYN community as they are legally being forced to be tools of government to do something harmful and unnecessary.
However, I imagine it is hard to drum up support for a coalition of abortion doctors. Make it a women's rights issue, cool. Make it an unborn baby issue, good luck selling that.
 
2012-03-20 11:12:09 PM  

sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: sno man: Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more

Well that seems abundantly clear. You probably couldn't get more dumb.
I'm gonna quote World here, 'cause I don't have better words to say the same thing...
"True, but some laws, just like some orders, should not be followed."

So that makes them legal?

Who's dumb?

The laws, or the defiance of them?
I might remind you America exists because of the 'defiance of' option.

You're avoiding a very simple question. Lets try again. And this has nothing to do with moral conviction or the likelihood of being charged, or the likelihood of being convicted. Let's keep it simple and direct.

A) State law requires that a physician performs procedure X
B) Physician does not perform procedure X

Has he:

1) Broken the law, or
2) Not broken the law?

State or local law requires you to drive 30MPH on a road designed to be driven at 45.
You drive 45.

1) you did break the law.
2) Why the fark is this law on the books?

Jesus. You can't even just admit that he broke the law, however stupid it might be?

1)Yes, I broke the law
2) separate issue

My question:

1) Yes, he broke the law

Agree or not? Man up and answer the fkn question

If they made a law that required you to walk off a tall cliff, would you?


No, I would not walk off that cliff, but yes, I would be breaking the law.

Now, wanna answer my question, or change the subject again?
 
2012-03-20 11:12:52 PM  

Via Infinito: So can we assume at this point that if we move to a blue state that none of this bullshiat will be going on? That if we escape from the derpy states, we won't have to be wand-raped? Does anybody have a comprehensive list of these bills that are being passed so we can know which states to avoid?


Don't worry, I'm sure they'll include a clause where moving to a blue state to get an abortion is a crime.

Kinda like the Fugitive Slave Act. Actually, a lot like it - wouldn't want those women suddenly getting rights when they moved to blue states, would we?
 
2012-03-20 11:13:57 PM  

sno man: If they made a law that required you to walk off a tall cliff, would you?


No. I'd still be breaking the law. You seem to be confusing legality for what is just, fair, and morally right. They aren't the same.
 
2012-03-20 11:14:32 PM  

Weaver95: now...is that kind of lame? maybe. But its also very human. And I try very hard not to blame people for being merely human.


Given how loud and extreme this debate is getting, and the history of murder and personal harassment and assault from the "pro life" side of the debate, I don't think wanting to be anonymous is anything negative at all. Sure the message could be more authoritative coming from someone willing to put themselves in the public eye, but I can't blame someone for not doing so.
 
2012-03-20 11:15:06 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: A) State law requires that a physician performs procedure X
B) Physician does not perform procedure X

Has he:

1) Broken the law, or
2) Not broken the law?


Not broken the law, because, see above.
 
2012-03-20 11:16:51 PM  
Some states have gotten around this objecting by level-headed physicians by forcing the women to only use "state-approved" crisis pregnancy centers for the ultrasound.

I hope the courts overturn this shiat and set precedent that farks over the anti-choice crowd beyond all reasoning.
 
2012-03-20 11:17:14 PM  
If only the probe looked like a tentacle...
 
2012-03-20 11:18:31 PM  

Kar98: Lionel Mandrake: Jesus. You can't even just admit that he broke the law, however stupid it might be?

In this internet lawyer's opinion, you can't "break" a law that's illegal.

4th:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

In order to violate an individual's right to bodily integrity, the state has to show probable cause - that is, the state must have some evidence that the person who is subject to government scrutiny is engaged in criminal activity.

Unless the Supreme Court declares otherwise, the fact remains that in getting an abortion, an individual is not engaging in criminal activity but in lawful activity in keeping with the U.S. Supreme Court's declaration in Roe v. Wade that abortion is a constitutional right.

Ergo, any such state law violates the US Constitution and the general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose.

The good doctor would therefor NOT have, in actuality, broken any law.

I rest my case.


OK, great answer, thanks.

But would you not be arrested, charged, tried, and (possibly) convicted anyway? You violated a law on the books, right? Hopefully, an appeal to higher court would result in a verdict of "this law is bullshiat, it is overturned and the defendant is free," but until then, wouldn't you still be considered a criminal (ie, law breaker)?
 
2012-03-20 11:18:52 PM  
So, Ms., I'm going to use a new technique where I hold the transvaginal ultrasound wand between my legs. Yes, it's a little odd but the reasons for it are highly technical, if you could please get on my lap we'll just get started now.
 
2012-03-20 11:19:01 PM  

MorrisBird: The silence of the medical establishment is deafening. We have physician Farkers here. Kindly explain this. Because, I don't understand it.


We didn't go through 10 years of school to get picked off by fundies exercising their "2nd Amendment Option"
 
2012-03-20 11:19:18 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I bet you're one of those people who goes to Disneyland and biatches when you get everything because it WASN'T given to you on a golden platter, amirite?


Nope. I'm one of those people who doesn't go to Disneyland. And, I sure as hell don't get your point.
 
2012-03-20 11:20:01 PM  

Lionel Mandrake:
Now, wanna answer my question, or change the subject again?


That you think I'm changing the subject is exactly the problem here.

A doctor takes an oath to do no harm to become a doctor. This law forces them to break that oath. This law is probably in violation of federal laws as well. But you seem to feel they need to follow it blindly. So I guess you would walk off that cliff...
 
2012-03-20 11:20:04 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: MFAWG: Oh, FFS! Everybody calm down for a minute, so you can see what kind of RUBES you all are.

This is the same old bullshiat they've been pulling for 30 years. Pass a bullshiat law that's not going to stand up for 5 minutes in any court in the land, and then biatch about Librul Activist Judges while fundraising.

DUH!

Thank you for showing us the Way, oh Wise One. Now kindly go to another thread if you're so fkn frustrated by us rubes.


Oh, somebody has an EXTRA sandy vagina tonight! This shiat is all election year posturing, nothing more,but nothing less either.

6 states now have these laws on the books, anybody have any idea if one has ever been challenged in court?
 
2012-03-20 11:20:45 PM  

Dr. Mojo PhD: sno man: If they made a law that required you to walk off a tall cliff, would you?

No. I'd still be breaking the law. You seem to be confusing legality for what is just, fair, and morally right. They aren't the same.


shush you.
 
2012-03-20 11:23:19 PM  
This thread touched on the interesting observation that the AMA has been nowhere on this issue. Where are the doctors?

There's also the idea that this is all a big donation drive, which I'm sure is one side effect but I'm not betting my money that all of these laws are going to be repealed either quickly enough or in their entirety. This issue should have been put to bed after Roe v. Wade but we're still dicking around with it. I am already flabbergasted that the number of women voting Republican is above zero.

Jesus is ruining everything, for Christ's sake!
 
2012-03-20 11:23:22 PM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: We didn't go through 10 years of school to get picked off by fundies exercising their "2nd Amendment Option"


You have an organization, just like we do. Ours is called the AJA (this week), yours is the AMA. They are supposed to speak for you so you don't face this threat. Where are they?
 
2012-03-20 11:23:41 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: What the Hell is so difficult here?

If the LAW says the Dr MUST do A, B, and C, and he doesn't HE IS BREAKING THE LAW - no matter how much the law sucks

I can't dumb it down any more


Duh, that's civil disobedience defined.
 
2012-03-20 11:24:08 PM  

SN1987a goes boom:

Jury: [encrypted-tbn3.google.com image 200x236]


Wow, a Reboot reference.
 
2012-03-20 11:25:01 PM  

MorrisBird: Gyrfalcon: I bet you're one of those people who goes to Disneyland and biatches when you get everything because it WASN'T given to you on a golden platter, amirite?

Nope. I'm one of those people who doesn't go to Disneyland. And, I sure as hell don't get your point.


Because I feel like humoring you:

Someone steps forward and does something good for the cause...and all YOU can do is whine because he didn't do everything you wanted done, immediately and in capital letters: What, no name? Didn't enlist the AMA? He's such a coward for speaking up at all! Might as well not have spoken!

Thanks to appreciative people like you, it's a wonder fewer people don't speak up.
 
2012-03-20 11:26:01 PM  

MorrisBird: Britney Spear's Speculum: We didn't go through 10 years of school to get picked off by fundies exercising their "2nd Amendment Option"

You have an organization, just like we do. Ours is called the AJA (this week), yours is the AMA. They are supposed to speak for you so you don't face this threat. Where are they?


The AJA has a posse?
 
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