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(Forbes)   The ten worst-built cars of 2012. Or, what the taxpayers got in return for saving GM, Chrysler and the UAW   (forbes.com) divider line 458
    More: Fail, UAW  
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35533 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Mar 2012 at 11:30 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-20 03:42:04 PM  

InfamousBLT: The more I read Fark car threads, the more I realize that Farkers hate cars. Really, really, REALLY hate cars. None of you are car people.
You're all HERP DERP TRUCKS ARE TEH BEST people and/or HERP DERP MY shiatTY ECOBOX ADVERTISES 500 MPG people.

Not all of us are that way.



On the first point, why do people buy trucks and/or SUVs?

Environmentalists took the power out of cars for the masses and reserved it for the few by putting it in the luxury tier. Trucks and SUV's are about the only way you can get a proper V6 or V8, thanks to all the regulations like CAFE that reduced the power-per-dollar you could get out of a car.

Remove the Gaia worshippers, and you'll solve this problem.
 
2012-03-20 03:42:14 PM  

forfarkonly: r1niceboy: I notice that most, if not all, of the vehicles in the list were conceived and designed before the bailouts.

You socialist Obama lovers are the best argument against him, thinking you're defending Obama, yet not realizing you only serve to show how stupid it was to bail out a line of losers that the market would have done away with sooner, and without me and my children paying for what will happen anyway. If any of you liberals out there had an honest bone or a brain, you would have been been cringing at what your comrad stated above, and admitted to how dumb this comment was. As it is, you won't admit to it, and just get all pissed off that I saw and pointed out the obvious. You fools, Obama is simply handing out our earned money to losers for votes. The biggest loser of all is not Obama, but the fool who votes for him again.


I didn't vote for him. I was merely acknowledging that the cars coming out of Detroit now are better than those before the bailout. The threatened bankruptcy forced them to reconsider how they did business. I"m not convinced, however, that they'll not revert back to their shoddy complacent work again once they've stabilized.

I realize you're not an Obama fan, fair enough. However, you'll feel a lot more comfortable if you pull that stick out of your ass. I'm not too proud to quote a movie in saying "You are in more dire need of a blowjob than any white man in history."
 
2012-03-20 03:42:42 PM  

greenboy: TheShavingofOccam123: forfarkonly: r1niceboy: I notice that most, if not all, of the vehicles in the list were conceived and designed before the bailouts.

You socialist Obama lovers are the best argument against him, thinking you're defending Obama, yet not realizing you only serve to show how stupid it was to bail out a line of losers that the market would have done away with sooner, and without me and my children paying for what will happen anyway. If any of you liberals out there had an honest bone or a brain, you would have been been cringing at what your comrad stated above, and admitted to how dumb this comment was. As it is, you won't admit to it, and just get all pissed off that I saw and pointed out the obvious. You fools, Obama is simply handing out our earned money to losers for votes. The biggest loser of all is not Obama, but the fool who votes for him again.

On December 19, 2008, a week after Republicans in the Senate had killed a bailout bill proposed by Democrats, saying it didn't impose big enough wage cuts on the U.A.W., Bush unilaterally agreed to lend $17.4 billion of taxpayers' money to General Motors and Chrysler, of which $13.4 billion was to be extended immediately. He had to twist the law to get the money. Deprived of congressional funding, he diverted cash from the loathed TARP program, which Congress had already passed, but which was supposed to be restricted to rescuing the banks. "I didn't want there to twenty-one-per-cent unemployment," he said to a meeting of the National Automobile Dealers Association in Las Vegas last month, explaining why he acted as he did. "I didn't want history to look back and say, 'Bush could have done something but chose not to do it.' "

Huh. George Bush bailed out the automakers because he didn't want to see 20 percent unemployment. He was worried about unemployed union workers. Huh. Almost makes me sad I never voted for the guy.

Not so much (voting-wise), but good job feeding the troll. he's an idiot.


Surprise greenboy - Bush started the socialist program that Obama is continuing, so who is the bigger fool? I don't care what Bush called himself, he was a socialist loser, just like your beloved Obama. You voted for Obama didn't you? Not happy huh?
 
2012-03-20 03:42:57 PM  

please: I fricking LOVE my FJ Cruiser. Visibility out the back isn't good, but other than that, it's my favorite out of the dozen or so cars I've owned in my life.

It really all depends on what you want out of the car you are buying - I wanted a war wagon, and that's what i got with the FJ.


I'm right there with you. I bought my FJ on ebay about six months ago and couldn't be happier.
 
2012-03-20 03:44:13 PM  

InfamousBLT: The more I read Fark car threads, the more I realize that Farkers hate cars. Really, really, REALLY hate cars. None of you are car people.
You're all HERP DERP TRUCKS ARE TEH BEST people and/or HERP DERP MY shiatTY ECOBOX ADVERTISES 500 MPG people.

On the first point, why do people buy trucks and/or SUVs? I work in an office, and the parking lot is about 60-70% SUVs (and I mean big ones) and trucks. Big trucks. Like, I'm sitting in my car, and the wheelbase is above my head, trucks. Like your lights are higher than my car, truck. None of these people are farmers, or construction workers. Most of these people don't use their trucks for anything crazy. They don't need their RAM 5000 ULTRA BONER TRI-DIESEL 6 WHEEL DRIVE COW HORN EDITION, and they most certainly don't need them to commute to an office. Yet a ton of people drive them. I really, honestly and truly, don't understand. They aren't comfortable, they get terrible gas milage, they are loud, and they are difficult to park. Where is the advantage to driving one of these to work? In an office?

On the second point...ecoboxes. Why? Why, why, why? By ecoboxes I mean the Prius, the Volt, and basically any/all hybrids. Why? The way these people drive them, they don't save any gas. They are absolutely gutless...it takes you about an hour to get from 0-60 which means you can't merge on the freeway. Plus, when you actually GET on the freeway for your hour long commute, your gas mileage isn't very good. You really aren't saving much money on gas when compared to the added cost of the vehicle. Don't give me the "I'm trying to be good for the environment" crap either...because cars are not now and will never be good for the environment. Mining the batteries, the paint, the rubber on your tires...none of that is any good for the environment at all. Ecoboxes are a lot of money for not a lot of car, and I don't understand it.

Okay, so what do I drive that is any better?
Golf GTI. Granted I didn't need the GTI, but I love dri ...


I'm in the same boat. I quite like the GTI, I've heard it's a quick little car. I think it's funny that my car has around 4.5 feet on yours yet fitting four people in it is at best painful.
 
2012-03-20 03:47:11 PM  
One too many mentions of the GTI. Sorry but I had to.

Kleiner GTI / Little GTI
Du siehst prima aus / well, you look so fine
Ich liebe, dich zu fahren / How I love to drive you
Hol' die leistrung 'raus / Let the performance shine
Hör nur, wie er sich anlasst / Listen when I start it
Steck' den schlussel 'rein / Stick the key in the ignition
Er ist bereit zum start / And it's ready to go
Wie er braust / How it zips
Wie er saust, GTI. / How it zooms, GTI.
Werde bargeld, sparen / I'll save up some money
Kauf' den GTI / Buy a GTI
er fahrt mit mir lassig / 'cause it drives so easy
An den andren vorbei, / past the other cars
Uberholt benzinfresser / Passes all the gas-hogs
Macht mir spass dabei / Makes me smile a while
Und jedermann sagt sich dann bloss, / And everyone thinks to themselves
"Kleiner wagen-du bist gross" / "Little car - you're grand"
Er ist bereit zum start / It's always ready to go
Wie er braust / How it zips
Wie er saust, GTI. / How it zooms, GTI.
Wah wah... wah wah wah wah wah....
 
2012-03-20 03:49:36 PM  

sethstorm:
pippi longstocking: Aren't they all pretty much pieces of shiat?

If you're talking about the foreign cars, yes. They're overgrown golfcarts.


Comments like that are why Detroit failed. You have low standards and they met them.
 
2012-03-20 03:50:52 PM  

dj245: I'll just leave this here-
Percent of Vehicles Still Remaining on the Road Today

Yes, I realize there are some inherent problems with looking at this kind of data, but it is good data to have anyway.


All those 1988 Chrysler vans still on the road....where?
 
2012-03-20 03:54:27 PM  

r1niceboy: forfarkonly: r1niceboy: I notice that most, if not all, of the vehicles in the list were conceived and designed before the bailouts.

You socialist Obama lovers are the best argument against him, thinking you're defending Obama, yet not realizing you only serve to show how stupid it was to bail out a line of losers that the market would have done away with sooner, and without me and my children paying for what will happen anyway. If any of you liberals out there had an honest bone or a brain, you would have been been cringing at what your comrad stated above, and admitted to how dumb this comment was. As it is, you won't admit to it, and just get all pissed off that I saw and pointed out the obvious. You fools, Obama is simply handing out our earned money to losers for votes. The biggest loser of all is not Obama, but the fool who votes for him again.

I didn't vote for him. I was merely acknowledging that the cars coming out of Detroit now are better than those before the bailout. The threatened bankruptcy forced them to reconsider how they did business. I"m not convinced, however, that they'll not revert back to their shoddy complacent work again once they've stabilized.

I realize you're not an Obama fan, fair enough. However, you'll feel a lot more comfortable if you pull that stick out of your ass. I'm not too proud to quote a movie in saying "You are in more dire need of a blowjob than any white man in history."


There is this company called Honda, ever heard of it? Did you know we didn't bail them out? Did you know their quality makes our bailed out quality look like shiat? I'm done with union backed "quality", and bail-out "quality". Asses need to take a ride in a Honda before they can comment on quality in a car. I love America and hate union bullshiat.
 
2012-03-20 03:55:17 PM  

InfamousBLT: The more I read Fark car threads, the more I realize that Farkers hate cars. Really, really, REALLY hate cars. None of you are car people.
You're all HERP DERP TRUCKS ARE TEH BEST people and/or HERP DERP MY shiatTY ECOBOX ADVERTISES 500 MPG people.

On the first point, why do people buy trucks and/or SUVs? I work in an office, and the parking lot is about 60-70% SUVs (and I mean big ones) and trucks. Big trucks. Like, I'm sitting in my car, and the wheelbase is above my head, trucks. Like your lights are higher than my car, truck. None of these people are farmers, or construction workers. Most of these people don't use their trucks for anything crazy. They don't need their RAM 5000 ULTRA BONER TRI-DIESEL 6 WHEEL DRIVE COW HORN EDITION, and they most certainly don't need them to commute to an office. Yet a ton of people drive them. I really, honestly and truly, don't understand. They aren't comfortable, they get terrible gas milage, they are loud, and they are difficult to park. Where is the advantage to driving one of these to work? In an office?

On the second point...ecoboxes. Why? Why, why, why? By ecoboxes I mean the Prius, the Volt, and basically any/all hybrids. Why? The way these people drive them, they don't save any gas. They are absolutely gutless...it takes you about an hour to get from 0-60 which means you can't merge on the freeway. Plus, when you actually GET on the freeway for your hour long commute, your gas mileage isn't very good. You really aren't saving much money on gas when compared to the added cost of the vehicle. Don't give me the "I'm trying to be good for the environment" crap either...because cars are not now and will never be good for the environment. Mining the batteries, the paint, the rubber on your tires...none of that is any good for the environment at all. Ecoboxes are a lot of money for not a lot of car, and I don't understand it.

Okay, so what do I drive that is any better?
Golf GTI. Granted I didn't need the GTI, but I love dri ...


I drive a Mazda Protege5. It gets great gas mileage, ultra reliable and very versatile because it's a hatchback. If your car purchase plans were to get something that cost as much as a hybrid prius, then the cost savings on fuel would be an advantage, but you're right, you could get a cheap, small car that gets great gas mileage and still save money regardless of even $5 a gallon gas. As far as trucks go, most people that have big trucks use them to tow a boat or a camper. There's always something more you can do with a truck than you can a small car, and how often to people call up their friend who owns a truck when they have to move. True, many truck owners probably don't need them, but if they want to shell out the extra dollars for the gas, who cares.
 
2012-03-20 03:57:51 PM  
I drive a 2011 GMC Sierra 4x4 with the Z71 suspension and All-Terrain package. I often work in locations where I need a 4x4 pickup when not in the office. The 5.3L V8 with 6-speed automatic I really do enjoy. It has decent mileage (20mpg) for a pickup and is quite pleasant to drive.

I feel more comfortable in that than I would a VW golf or other small car.
 
2012-03-20 03:57:56 PM  

Zizzowop: I totally agree, they should never change the design, it is what it is, and I have been off-roading in more than one Jeep to know what they're capable of. My friend had a 53 Willys, original f-head motor, even with a Warn overdrive, max speed was 60. It had the hand throttle, which I never understood why you would need that until somebody explained it to me. I loved the sound of that thing, and it was a blast to ride in off road. Funny thing was, he got that Jeep after it had been torn apart, engine exposed and all, put it back together, tuned the motor (did not rebuild it) and it still ran perfect. Those low-compression motors were the best, couldn't kill em if you tried.


Yeah, I stumbled across a hand throttle in a magazine about 2 years ago, hadn't really known about them before, Might be worth it if I ever built a full on trail rig...

My CJ could max out at about 75-80 all the way from Flagstaff to Phoenix, as long as some jackass didn't get in front of me on the uphills. Once I lost my momentum, I was screwed. One time coming back, I gave it the extra gas on a small rise to keep that momentum up. I forgot to ease back on the downslope, and by the time I looked back at the speedo, it was past the 90 MPH point, and was basically telling me how much fuel I had. I was doing about 105 in the thing, and it was like it was riding on rails. I had a huge amount of play in the steering, but once I got my 31's pointed straight, they tended to stay that way. Now my only decision is if I get a fuel injected Wrangler for the simplicity under the hood, or an older carbureted CJ that I actually have a chance of figuring out when I open the hood... I'm finally doing well enough financially that a clutch repair doesn't send me into 3 months of panic... :-)
 
2012-03-20 04:00:08 PM  
Meh ... I like my Audi ... even though every consumer reports testing magazine bull shiate says it's a piece of crap ... Well, boo to them, hah.

i1059.photobucket.com
 
2012-03-20 04:01:10 PM  
Rapmaster2000

They're not really concerned with how Buick is perceived in the US when there's a market with 3 times as many people that already revere the things.


I remember reading an article about that specific topic a few years ago. I couldn't find the specific article, but from what I remember It was basically a car reporter talking about how great the Chinese Buicks were compared to the POS they produce for the US market. I think when he asked one of the Buick reps. why the fit and finish were so much better in the Chinese ones, the rep replied something along the lines 'because that's what our Chinese customers expect.' which floored the reporter because it was a very blunt admission that the ones they were producing in the US were inferior and they knew it.
 
2012-03-20 04:01:20 PM  

forfarkonly: Asses need to take a ride in a Honda before they can comment on quality in a car.


My anaconda don't want none.
 
2012-03-20 04:01:36 PM  

change1211: poopshovel: change1211: I think a Unimog would be more fun than that. Those things are awesome and unlike the FJ, aren't ugly.

I stand by what I say, the new FJ is just downright ugly.


Yes, yes it is. But to say that the Unimog isn't ugly indicates a need for some sort of brain scan. You seem to be suffering from head trauma.
 
2012-03-20 04:06:26 PM  

Dinki: jehovahs witness protection: Buy a Nissan...built buy non-union workers who actually take pride in their work.

Yes because we all know these 10 vehicles were all conceived, designed, engineered, and marketed by union workers. The decision to use cheap plastic instead of metal was a union decision. The decision to build gas guzzling behemoths with inefficient powerplants is a union decision. It's all the union fault.


It can. When you want to introduce new tech, you have to shake up the employees who design and build it. It's already very difficult to pull off innovation. When you've got a plethora of arbitrary rules on how things can be done, and astronomical penalties for not doing it the way the unions dictate, you're kinda screwed.
 
2012-03-20 04:07:08 PM  
Got the Dodge Nitro (the platform mate of the Jeep Liberty on the list). I dropped the bling rims, put on mudders and lifted it. I bought it becuase it was dirt cheap and was a real truck... something I wouldn't mind getting dirty on the trails. It's driven less than two miles a day to work, so the gas isn't an issue.

The Nitro has the same amount of miles that my BMW 3 series has on it (22,000). The BMW has already had a bunch of expensive repairs, while the Dodge has had one minor recall. The BMW looks really nice when it's out of the shop though.
 
2012-03-20 04:07:54 PM  

sethstorm:

Environmentalists took the power out of cars for the masses and reserved it for the few by putting it in the luxury tier. Trucks and SUV's are about the only way you can get a proper V6 or V8, thanks to all the regulations like CAFE that reduced the power-per-dollar you could get out of a car.

Remove the Gaia worshippers, and you'll solve this problem.


Yeah, but turbos man. Not to blather on about my GTI, but nobody is going to say that my 2 liter, 4 cylinder feels sluggish or lacking in power. Why? Turbo boosted to 200 hp. Its a properly sized turbo too so if you shift properly there is little to no turbo lag beyond first gear. Sure it's great fun to get a naturally aspirated 300+ hp out of a proper V8 but man are they gas hungry.

change1211: I'm in the same boat. I quite like the GTI, I've heard it's a quick little car. I think it's funny that my car has around 4.5 feet on yours yet fitting four people in it is at best painful.


It's very nice. The reason I like it so much is because when you need a vehicle for transporting people and/or things, its very calm and comfortable and quiet. Then when you want to have fun you just shift later and go faster around corners and its amazingly fun. Fun when you want it to be, relaxed the rest of the time. Can't ask for anything better.

Zizzowop: I drive a Mazda Protege5. It gets great gas mileage, ultra reliable and very versatile because it's a hatchback. If your car purchase plans were to get something that cost as much as a hybrid prius, then the cost savings on fuel would be an advantage, but you're right, you could get a cheap, small car that gets great gas mileage and still save money regardless of even $5 a gallon gas. As far as trucks go, most people that have big trucks use them to tow a boat or a camper. There's always something more you can do with a truck than you can a small car, and how often to people call up their friend who owns a truck when they have to move. True, many truck owners probably don't need them, but if they want to shell out the extra dollars for the gas, who cares.


Both the 3 and the 5 are great cars, especially if you get them in hatchback. I drove a 3 from LA to Chicago last August and it was a great car. The only beef I had was driving through the mountains, it was a little sluggish. Any naturally aspirated car is going to have trouble in the mountains though so I forgive it for that.
And, why do I care about truck drivers? Because they usually drive like jackasses too, which makes me feel a little on edge when their front bumper is taller than my entire car. Plus I can never see over them (sometimes I can see under them though :) ) when I'm trying to pull out of a parking lot. Plus, my car has trouble with snow since it has low-profile tires (next year I'm buying snow tires), and so when they come flying up behind me and flashing their lights in a foot of snow and ice because they have a truck and they think they are invincible, it bothers me. I don't get mad at them when they have to slow down to turn (a small, short wheelbased hatchback? Yeah I don't have to slow down if I don't want to), so they shouldn't get mad at me when I have to slow down a little to not crash.
 
2012-03-20 04:09:26 PM  

miss diminutive: Toyota FJ Cruiser
Unfortunately it scored near the bottom in Consumer Reports road tests and suffers from among the worst driver visibility among all models.


I own a 2010 FJ with a manual transmission. I've put 40K miles on it in 18 months. It's big and heavy, funny-looking, gets crappy gas mileage, and it definitely does have rear visibility issues. That being said: I love it. It's a lot of fun to drive, it does really well in snow and on ice, it's got a lot of room in it and is comfy on long trips, and it's wonderful off-road. It's also easy to find in the parking lot. I view the fact that it's not carpeted as a benefit, since I tend to get my boots muddy. If I needed to buy a new vehicle, I'd definitely buy another FJ.

Haters gonna hate, I guess.
 
2012-03-20 04:09:45 PM  
images4.wikia.nocookie.net

The Chyrslus factory has seen better days. The Corvega didn't go over as well as intended. Pricey, plus it undergoes a nuclear detonation if you shoot at it.
 
2012-03-20 04:10:54 PM  
Chevrolet Colorado/GMC Canyon

This lackluster duo of midsize pickups rate near the bottom in Consumer Reports' road tests, with staffers finding fault with their acceleration, engine noise, ride quality, braking, body flex and fit and finish.


Glad to see nothing has changed since the 2008 model from Shreveport that I bought.
 
2012-03-20 04:13:35 PM  

Geotpf: They don't take advertising! Heck, they don't even accept free loaner cars!

They buy every car they test at a dealer, annoymously. Not their fault that the domestic vehicles (in general) test worse and get worse reliability ratings in their user surveys than Toyotas and Honda.


I've seen this so many times: "CR just rated the XYZ I bought as a POS. That means that CR is full of it, not that I didn't do my homework and bought a POS."

/CR has never mislead me. Not once.
 
2012-03-20 04:16:38 PM  

r1niceboy: Comments like that are why Detroit failed. You have low standards and they met them.


It isn't a low standard to demand more power-per-dollar, something to be built to US standards, and to have larger cars not be reserved for the few as opposed to the many.

It is a low standard to accept cars designed for austerity like those found in nearly everywhere in the world (save for Australia, which seems to have *resisted* golfcart disease). An econobox represents a lack of attention to detail or to distract you from the car's lack of engine power.

I've got no shame for owning Detroit metal like this:
i540.photobucket.com
/Given that it's GM, CR hates it.
//That's one reason I bought it.
 
2012-03-20 04:18:22 PM  

j__z: Rapmaster2000

They're not really concerned with how Buick is perceived in the US when there's a market with 3 times as many people that already revere the things.

I remember reading an article about that specific topic a few years ago. I couldn't find the specific article, but from what I remember It was basically a car reporter talking about how great the Chinese Buicks were compared to the POS they produce for the US market. I think when he asked one of the Buick reps. why the fit and finish were so much better in the Chinese ones, the rep replied something along the lines 'because that's what our Chinese customers expect.' which floored the reporter because it was a very blunt admission that the ones they were producing in the US were inferior and they knew it.


I'd have asked them why they've shoved I4's in where V6's should be. Those kind of build issues can be worked around with good service.
 
2012-03-20 04:21:07 PM  

GQueue: dericwater: Don't know what's between Phoenix and Chicago that's worth stopping for

My guess is the old Route 66 -- you'd drive north from Phoenix to Flagstaff, which was along the route.


Actually you're right. The old Route 66 would go from Phoenix to Chicago and that would be a great way to spend about 3 weeks moseying along the route. It's a historical route now with lots of touristy things all along the way.
 
2012-03-20 04:23:59 PM  

greenboy: How they are actually driven is irrelevant. What they are designed to do is.


Ultimately, they are designed so that they make a profit. If more profit can be made by giving SUVs a big video screen and surround sound for the kids, then that is the right thing to do.


A jeep is designed to go off road, therefore, certain requirements must be met. in doing so, drive comfort at highway speeds is affected. That is the tradeoff. If soccer moms want to drive it on the highway then that is fine, but that does not mean that it should be knocked because it does not provide a soft ride.

But when consumers in ever increasing numbers no longer take them off road and start demanding creature comforts, who's right? Like it or not, the Jeep Wrangler, like the Hummer brand both connote a certain panache. People are wiling to pay for that name but they are also demanding things that have no business being in an off road vehicle. A wise business tries to satisfy its customers, at least most of them anyway.
 
2012-03-20 04:24:31 PM  

sethstorm: It is a low standard to accept cars designed for austerity like those found in nearly everywhere in the world (save for Australia, which seems to have *resisted* golfcart disease). An econobox represents a lack of attention to detail or to distract you from the car's lack of engine power.


It is indeed a low standard to believe the two are mutually exclusive.
 
2012-03-20 04:25:38 PM  

Dinki: jehovahs witness protection: Buy a Nissan...built buy non-union workers who actually take pride in their work.

Yes because we all know these 10 vehicles were all conceived, designed, engineered, and marketed by union workers. The decision to use cheap plastic instead of metal was a union decision. The decision to build gas guzzling behemoths with inefficient powerplants is a union decision. It's all the union fault.


Hey, had to cut cost somewhere to pay for the union labor. Come on, you know how much it cost to pay them to not come to work?
 
2012-03-20 04:31:35 PM  

forfarkonly:

There is this company called Honda, ever heard of it? Did you know we didn't bail them out? Did you know their quality makes our bailed out quality look like shiat? I'm done with union backed "quality", and bail-out "quality". Asses need to take a ride in a Honda before they can comment on quality in a car. I love America and hate union bullshiat.


Honda's aren't that great, they're okay though. Reliability is an issue in recent years. In comparison to what Detroit vomited out during the last forty years, they're Rolls Royces. I feel that Honda has been sucking hind tit to Toyota and Nissan recently. Their cars lately are unimaginative. I like the newer Civic Type-Rs. Those are fun. Those are made in Japan though....by unionized workers.

Say what you will about unions, and I'm sure you already have on the Politics tab, but great cars can be made by either unionized companies, or non-unionized. My favorite car is made by non-unionized workers in the US and Britain, the Ariel Atom. It's got a supercharged Honda V6 in it, and is a joy to drive. Mind you, they're not unionized because they're built in a shed. Another car I love, the VW Golf GTI, is unionized. If you're going to buy a ca, based on whether they employ union members, it's like choosing a wife on how agreeable she is to anal sex. You'll feel some enjoyment, but it's your own fault if it all ends in tears.
 
2012-03-20 04:35:53 PM  

Geotpf: But 50-75% of the domestic production of GM and Chrysler would have been shut down permanently, as those lines were unproftable. This also means most domestic auto part makers would have gone bankrupt as well, potentially shutting down Ford and the domestic plants of the foreign automakers, at least on a temporary basis.

The net result would be decreased competition, increased prices (due to lack of competition), and crappy Chinese cars being introduced into the US.


Uh thanks for making my point for me. Ford shut down their unprofitable lines (Mercury) and sold off others (most of their foreign luxury brands). You either find a way to make them profitable or shut them down. Someone would have taken a chance with the unprofitable lines if they thought they could have been made profitable. Same thing with the parts suppliers. GM and Chrysler could have made decisions to save themselves, but they didn't.

Besides the last part of your statement makes no sense. There's still a ton of competition from foreign automakers.

Supply and Demand, how does it work?
 
2012-03-20 04:42:26 PM  

dj245: Wasn't this car very recently on Top Gear?


Didn't see that one, but as far as I know Saab has only been doing 4-wheel drive for a short while. Saw my first one ever in the US about 3 years ago, have seen 1 or 2 on UK roads since. Mine is from 2001.

People I know (who have owned Saabs longer than me) say that Saabs stopped being great when Vauxhall / Opel started interfering and insisting on sharing components with more of the Vauxhall range.

Certainly the newer Saabs I've been in and the owners I've spoken too say that they're not a patch on the older models.

/just wish mine hadn't cost £400 to fix an oil leak last week....
 
2012-03-20 04:45:02 PM  
I grow more and more convinced that Jason Powell is being mailed checks from the WWE.

Link (new window)
 
2012-03-20 04:46:02 PM  

r1niceboy: Honda's aren't that great, they're okay though. Reliability is an issue in recent years. In comparison to what Detroit vomited out during the last forty years, they're Rolls Royces. I feel that Honda has been sucking hind tit to Toyota and Nissan recently. Their cars lately are unimaginative. I like the newer Civic Type-Rs. Those are fun. Those are made in Japan though....by unionized workers.


While the union at those companies is company derived, as opposed to the worker-derived UAW & CAW. With a company union, RTW laws help; with a non-company union, RTW laws eviscerate.
 
2012-03-20 04:46:18 PM  
Wrong thread, goddammit so much.
 
2012-03-20 04:47:32 PM  
I'm happy with my 2011 Jeep Liberty. It isn't the fanciest car in the world but it does the job and is comfortable. It looks good too and the price was right. Sorry, not everyone can afford 50,000 dollar SUVs.
 
2012-03-20 04:49:49 PM  

entropic_existence: No, the customer isn't always right. I think that kind of thinking has just fostered the non-justified sense of entitlement so many people seem to have. I worked retail part-time as an undergrad back in the day, most people are just plain stupid.


The customer may be stupid, but he is always right. Remember Pet Rocks? Stupid? Oh yes. Wrong? Not a chance. I don't think you understand the meaning of the old saying. It has absolutely nothing to do with entitlement. If the customer wants a certain product and is willing to pay enough for it that you could make a profit supplying it, who are you to say he is wrong? It is the height or arrogance for retailers to claim they know what is best for their customers. That's the problem The Big Three automakers had in the 80s. Customers wanted smaller, more fuel efficient, more reliable cars but Detroit poo pooed that and kept building clunky old gas guzzlers. They, not the customer, were wrong. Another way to say the old maxim is that only the customer knows what he wants (advertisers may disagree). If you are a smart businessman, you'll supply it.


When someone uses a tool with expectations that are unrealistic for the type of tool they are using, they are categorically wrong. Someone upthread had the facetious example of saying a Yaris sucked because it got stuck when you tried to drive off-road through 2 1/2 inches of water.

Let me counter with: If market research shows that more money could be made modifying the Yaris so that it could drive off-road through 2 1/2 inches of water, you would be smart to make that modification.


I mean I suppose saying a hammer is a bad screwdriver is technically correct and not wrong, but you would really question the mental capacity of the person saying it.

Buying a car is not in any way like buying a screwdriver or hammer. There's no prestige or cool factor associated with screwdrivers. With cars, hell, that's half their selling price.


I don't think it is useless information. I agree that subjective design criteria can be useful when choosing a car. The problem I guess is more how CR presents their data. It is misleading. People sort of read it as a reliability guide, which it isn't.

IIRC, reliability is only one of the factors they judge one.


The categories they place some of their complaints in to can also likewise be misleading. And really the only way you'll know whether you subjectively like a vehicle is to actually get in one and drive it. I really liked the design and idea of the Nissan Juke... until I sat in it and realized my knees were wrapped around the steering wheel for instance.

Sure, but like with movie reviews, you read a bunch of stuff and you should see a consensus. Different reviews talk about different things. You can't test drive everything so you need some basis to narrow down your list.
 
2012-03-20 04:51:56 PM  

Pert: dj245: Wasn't this car very recently on Top Gear?

Didn't see that one, but as far as I know Saab has only been doing 4-wheel drive for a short while. Saw my first one ever in the US about 3 years ago, have seen 1 or 2 on UK roads since. Mine is from 2001.

People I know (who have owned Saabs longer than me) say that Saabs stopped being great when Vauxhall / Opel started interfering and insisting on sharing components with more of the Vauxhall range.

Certainly the newer Saabs I've been in and the owners I've spoken too say that they're not a patch on the older models.

/just wish mine hadn't cost £400 to fix an oil leak last week....


Its worth watching. The video is here (new window). I suppose you might be able to watch it on your fancy iplayer if you are in the UK too, but us continental folks are not allowed to use that.
 
2012-03-20 04:52:16 PM  
Came for pics of booth babes and left disappointed.
 
2012-03-20 04:53:20 PM  

sethstorm: r1niceboy: Comments like that are why Detroit failed. You have low standards and they met them.

It isn't a low standard to demand more power-per-dollar, something to be built to US standards, and to have larger cars not be reserved for the few as opposed to the many.

It is a low standard to accept cars designed for austerity like those found in nearly everywhere in the world (save for Australia, which seems to have *resisted* golfcart disease). An econobox represents a lack of attention to detail or to distract you from the car's lack of engine power.

I've got no shame for owning Detroit metal like this:
[i540.photobucket.com image 640x480]
/Given that it's GM, CR hates it.
//That's one reason I bought it.


I hate the Aurora and the Intrigue because of the electrics. Have your windows failed yet? How about the A/C? The engines in Olds were usually decent. You've either got the LX5 3.5l shortstar or the L47. Good engines, but needed to be for the weight they haul around. The V8 was nice, but I preferred the V6.

As for the whole golfcart thing, there are more than just hatchbacks out there. It just happens that the hot hatchbacks are incredibly good fun and also practical. For every Puegeot 205 or Twingo, you get a Citroen C6 or Beemer 5, 6, or 7 series. I'd also take a current C class Merc over any US built sedan, ever. More luxurious, comfortable, better handling, and just a happier thing to be in that isn't Olivia Wilde.
 
2012-03-20 04:54:37 PM  

Persnickety: greenboy


To an extent, they already have. Your real jeep enthusiast doesn't want/care about the bells and whistles. The nice interior, unlimited models, etc are marketed for the person who wants a jeep b/c they like jeeps, but we all know they will never go off road. Most real jeep owners will go for the standard transmission (vs auto). They may pick up the sahara or rubicon package to get some of the drivetrain and gear ratios, otherwise, they get base models b/c they are going to upgrade the suspension, lift it, put 40s and a snorkel kit on it and turn it upside down.
Chrysler has marketed the jeep for the non-digging individual for a while, but there is only so far you can go before it's not a jeep anymore.
 
2012-03-20 04:55:15 PM  

JimmyFartpants: R.A.Danny: Didn't those also require premium fuel? It isn't noted in TFA, but I remember something that I'm too lazy to actually look up.

Nothing on the road requires premium fuel.

That's just car marketing speak to make you think you own a high performance vehicle.

The only exception is if you have an engine knock or your driving a $150+ sports car.


That's a fail. Anything with a supercharger in it, for example, would require >91 octane rating, or the pre-ignition would knock the valves into oblivion before 50,000 miles. And the Saturn Ion Redline, which had a supercharger, cost nowhere near $150K.
 
2012-03-20 05:01:59 PM  

Herb_the_betta: I will be dumping it for a Wrangler as soon as the warranty expires, though.



When I got rid of my Accord last year, I picket up a Wrangler.

/Love it.
 
2012-03-20 05:16:12 PM  
Haven't bought an American car since 1996, don't plan on changing that any time soon.

The straw that broke the camel's back was a late first generation Caravan (bought as a used/lease return at 3 years old) that we spent more in warranty co-pays than loan payments over one year.
 
2012-03-20 05:19:01 PM  

sethstorm: r1niceboy: Honda's aren't that great, they're okay though. Reliability is an issue in recent years. In comparison to what Detroit vomited out during the last forty years, they're Rolls Royces. I feel that Honda has been sucking hind tit to Toyota and Nissan recently. Their cars lately are unimaginative. I like the newer Civic Type-Rs. Those are fun. Those are made in Japan though....by unionized workers.

While the union at those companies is company derived, as opposed to the worker-derived UAW & CAW. With a company union, RTW laws help; with a non-company union, RTW laws eviscerate.


The US auto industry would have essentially had company unions, but the big three fought any kind of unionization from the outset and have been adversarial rather than complimentary, like the Japanese. Also RTW is a different animal in the US. It's a stick to beat workers, and practically forces the unions to become militantly resistant to it. The fact is Japanese industry is based around working towards a common goal, whereas the Us is based upon cliques and power struggles. Recently the Japanese unions met up to plan out a strategy that would make the products they build more competitive in the coming decade. I doubt either the big three, or the UAW, thinks beyond the next fiscal year. Both are at fault for being adversarial. But neither would exist were it not for the other.

I don't mind unions, but I think they overreach sometimes. Likewise I wouldn't trust the auto industry to treat their employees well enough to hold onto them if there were no unions at all. Instead of looking at the issue, which is to ensure there's an industry making competitive cars while retaining good workers, instead we get people throwing a conniption at Obama. Do we believe that if Obama weren't there, the auto industry would suddenly make Veyrons and sell them for $10,000? I just want cars made to be good at what they do, and not break down because there's money to be made from people who have to take their Cadillac back to the dealer twenty minutes after the warranty runs out.
 
2012-03-20 05:22:49 PM  
As a cyclist, I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

www.pirate4x4.com
 
2012-03-20 05:25:54 PM  

Dinki: jehovahs witness protection: Buy a Nissan...built buy non-union workers who actually take pride in their work.

Yes because we all know these 10 vehicles were all conceived, designed, engineered, and marketed by union workers. The decision to use cheap plastic instead of metal was a union decision. The decision to build gas guzzling behemoths with inefficient powerplants is a union decision. It's all the union fault.


Quit picking apart the narative and nod your head.
 
2012-03-20 05:36:12 PM  

sethstorm: InfamousBLT: The more I read Fark car threads, the more I realize that Farkers hate cars. Really, really, REALLY hate cars. None of you are car people.
You're all HERP DERP TRUCKS ARE TEH BEST people and/or HERP DERP MY shiatTY ECOBOX ADVERTISES 500 MPG people.

Not all of us are that way.



On the first point, why do people buy trucks and/or SUVs?

Environmentalists took the power out of cars for the masses and reserved it for the few by putting it in the luxury tier. Trucks and SUV's are about the only way you can get a proper V6 or V8, thanks to all the regulations like CAFE that reduced the power-per-dollar you could get out of a car.

Remove the Gaia worshippers, and you'll solve this problem.


Not so clear cut considering that the typical mid-range 4 today makes more HP than a V-6 from the early 90's. The V-6 does have a torque advantage that is needed in larger vehicles like mini-vans, light trucks, etc. Shoehorning one into an Accord or equivalent is just asking for a speeding ticket and does a number on your MPG.
 
2012-03-20 05:37:32 PM  

allegedman: for fark sakes

GET RID OF THE UAW AND HIRE SOME MECHANICS AND ENGINEERS THAT ACTUALLY WANT TO WORK!!!!


Any "problems" would be at the engineering level and I doubt the design engineers are unionized.
 
2012-03-20 05:49:00 PM  
Subby is a dolt. The Toyota on that list (FJ Cruiser) most certainly did NOT get built by any tax bailout dollars. Also...that list is insane. As has been said, many cars on that list are made for specific purposes....and make no apologies that they do not get 45mpg or cruise in comfort like a Lexus. Jesus..if every car was the same they would all suck. Owned Jeeps...great vehicles for what they were designed for. Now own an FJ Cruiser.... thing goes anywhere...tows...lugs...and looks cool too. I musta missed the requirement that all vehicles have faux wood interior trim to be good cars.
 
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