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(Slate)   In Fark's favorite state, it's perfectly legal to kill anyone anywhere and claim self-defense   (slate.com) divider line 646
    More: Florida, florida, Emily Bazelon  
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12117 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Mar 2012 at 9:33 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-20 02:16:37 PM

jaytkay: You know how you have a movie playing in your head all the time about how you save the day by shooting some menacing colored person?

I don't.

But then I'm not a gun nut.


I am and I don't.
 
2012-03-20 02:17:22 PM
"They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid," said Peaden, a Crestview Republican who sponsored the deadly force law (stand your ground) in 2005. "He has no protection under my law.".

So why isn't he being alternately jeered and raped?
 
2012-03-20 02:19:53 PM

Nem Wan: Classic case of "self defense": being in your own house, noticing burglars at your neighbor's empty house and going over there to shoot them


I remember that one. In Texas (aka "the other Floriduh"), right?

I understand the concept of self defence and would do what I need to to save my own life or the life of a loved one, but I have never felt so strongly about my neighbour's tv that I was willing to kill over it.

Is short term (fuse) thinking the new black? Have we really rendered reason and big-picture thinking obsolete? Rhetorical, nosferatublue.
 
2012-03-20 02:21:11 PM

ongbok: Secret Master of All Flatulence: Madbassist1: Awesome alibi. It happens all the time, dumbass.

Police officers were on the scene within 60 seconds of the shot being fired. Did Zimmerman beat himself up BEFORE the fight?

No but he initiated the confrontation that led to the kid beating him up in self defense. Listen to the 911 tape and read the statement of the girl who was on the phone with the kid when all of this happened. By Zimmerman's own words he was following the kid, and the statement from the girl who was on the phone with the kid confirms that the kid said somebody was following him. Then on the 911 tape Zimmerman says that the kid is running, the girl on the phone with the kid reported that she begged him to run and he finally did.

Once the kid ran it should have ended there with Zimmerman, but instead of letting the police do their job he chased the kid down and cornered him. Now if anybody had a right to act in self defense because they feared for their life it would be the kid. Because if you think somebody is following you and you run to get away and they then chase after you, any reasonable person would conclude that they are in danger.

So yes it would be perfectly reasonable to expect that Zimmerman was injured in the confrontation because the kid was defending himself against an assailant that was stalking him, then chasing him.


if these turns out to be facts, then mr.Z deserves to be fully culpable to the law. and hopefully a jury and judge will execute their responsibilities to the law in finding the truth.
 
2012-03-20 02:21:25 PM
I hope this racist murderer fries
 
2012-03-20 02:22:17 PM

ChuDogg: I guess the police for could be predominantly hispanic, but with the media constantly calling him a white dude i dont think thats the racist angle they are edging for.


I'm about as white as you could be and I'm also hispanic.

One is a racial description and one is an ethnic description. The two are not mutually exclusive terms.

/ I do have some fun watching the difference in how people behave when I identify myself as one or the other, however.
 
2012-03-20 02:22:21 PM

rufus-t-firefly: I was curious as to whether there is a good repository of the official information on this case, so I went to thesmokinggun.com, knowing they always have the best stuff.


Police departments do not typically release information in cases that are currently under investigation. They won't release police reports, transcripts of interviews with witnesses, crime scene results, or the like.

The best you can hope to get unless the case goes to trial or the file is closed is second hand witness recollections and conjecture by legal and law enforcement "experts."
 
2012-03-20 02:23:20 PM

vpb: Jingo Ate Your Baby: TravisBickle62: The report said that Zimmerman's back was wet and he was covered in grass as if he had been on the ground. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of the head, the report said.

--

So I'm supposed to believe that Zimmerman beat HIMSELF up?

No, you're supposed to believe that a busted nose and a head wound is a disproportionate response to defending yourself from a maniac chasing you down the street but a fatal gunshot wound for walking in a neighborhood wearing a hoodie is completely reasonable.

This isn't 1955; we're not legally bound to be cordial with every douchebag white person who asks us what we're doing. I'm a female who is about 120 lbs less than he is and I would have tried to break his face with that Arizona tea bottle if I thought he was following me.

I think it is odd that so many people are saying this, since it supports Zimmerman's case. If I were a defense attorney and someone claimed that Martin was no threat because he didn't have a knife or gun and because of the size difference I would point to this sort of statement.


Actually it supports the legitimacy of a Stand Your Ground law. I guess it supports Zimmerman for anyone who believes that he is the only person in that situation who could have felt threatened. As a woman, if someone tries to rape me and I just lie back and take it there'd be a whole lot of farkers claiming I asked for it. Only an idiot would think I was in the wrong for defending myself.

I mean seriously, what kind of uniform does a farking neighborhood watch captain wear? What was supposed to convince this kid that Zimmerman was anything but a raving lunatic? Forgot - kid was black, Zimmerman at least LOOKED like a white guy, which makes him harmless and credible by default.

/gtfo
 
2012-03-20 02:25:07 PM

Mrs.Sharpier: [i96.photobucket.com image 550x547]


It's easy to fault Fox News for lots of things, but Fox pretty much invariably covers national political and financial news and issues. This is neither financial nor political. It's a local issue that's blown up, like Casey Anthony. And who covered Casey Anthony the most? HLN, aka CNN2, the type of network that would carry those types of issues to a national audience.
 
2012-03-20 02:26:23 PM

bhcompy: Mrs.Sharpier: [i96.photobucket.com image 550x547]

It's easy to fault Fox News for lots of things, but Fox pretty much invariably covers national political and financial news and issues. This is neither financial nor political. It's a local issue that's blown up, like Casey Anthony. And who covered Casey Anthony the most? HLN, aka CNN2, the type of network that would carry those types of issues to a national audience.


well said. never thought about that before.
 
2012-03-20 02:27:41 PM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: ChuDogg: I guess the police for could be predominantly hispanic, but with the media constantly calling him a white dude i dont think thats the racist angle they are edging for.

I'm about as white as you could be and I'm also hispanic.

One is a racial description and one is an ethnic description. The two are not mutually exclusive terms.

/ I do have some fun watching the difference in how people behave when I identify myself as one or the other, however.


Bring up immigration reform and watch the racist comments fly. It is beyond silly.

/1/8th Injun
 
2012-03-20 02:28:13 PM

Nem Wan: Classic case of "self defense": being in your own house, noticing burglars at your neighbor's empty house and going over there to shoot them


Different case, different law, perfectly legal.

Read Texas Penal Code, chapter 9 section 43, Lethal force in defense of a 3rd party's property.

In Texas, if you catch them in the act, and they are fleeing with property from a burglary, lethal force is legal on a 3rd party's property. About the only crime you can't use lethal force on in Texas is vandalism (after the fact, only before to prevent) and shoplifting/purse snatching.

Joe was a little stupid in how he handled that one.
 
2012-03-20 02:28:41 PM

bhcompy: Mrs.Sharpier: [i96.photobucket.com image 550x547]

It's easy to fault Fox News for lots of things, but Fox pretty much invariably covers national political and financial news and issues. This is neither financial nor political. It's a local issue that's blown up, like Casey Anthony. And who covered Casey Anthony the most? HLN, aka CNN2, the type of network that would carry those types of issues to a national audience.


oh bulls hit. Fox would be on this like white on rice if it was a white guy shot by a black guy.
 
2012-03-20 02:29:45 PM

rufus-t-firefly: JackieRabbit: zimmerman: Also, Subby, it's legal in any state to kill someone and *claim* self defense - it's the getting acquitted part that's a bit tougher.

Ah, but there is a rub. You can kill in self-defense, but you have to prove that deadly force was necessary to avoid a manslaughter charge. That's not easy to do. Florida has set a very dangerous precedent with the "stand your ground" law. Under British common law, which is still the basis for much of our common law, one is required to extract oneself from a dangerous situation, if at all possible. The exception is one's home. Under this doctrine, had Florida not had the stand your ground law, Zimmerman would have been arrested and charged with at least involuntary manslaughter and, because he pursued the boy, perhaps voluntary manslaughter.

The "stand your ground" thing is the problem. By the law, wouldn't Treyvon have been within his rights to stand his ground? Or does your "right" to stand and fight only apply if you're armed?

If Treyvon had been the one legally armed and Zimmerman was dead, with everything else in the story being exactly the same (Zimmerman following him despite the dispatcher's advice, Zimmerman confronting him, etc), you can farking believe Treyvon would have been arrested immediately.


the problem is not the "stand your ground" thing. not even slightly.

the real problem is prosecutorial discretion. we see the problem of prosecutorial discretion cropping up for many different classes of crimes, and for several different reasons (corruption, the status of the defendant, and the problem that arises when the difficulty of securing a conviction combined with the desire for success by the prosecutor overwhelms her desire to serve and protect the public).

the answer for prosecutorial discretion may be the Prosecutorial Review Commission model that japan has developed.

"Another collateral impact of lay adjudication occurred when the PRC
indicted Japan's most influential political powerbroker. Following the Japanese
prosecutor's decision not to indict the politician, a civic complaint
was filed against the non-prosecution decision, leading to the PRC's investigation
of the alleged violation of the election contribution law and the
subsequent decision to prosecute him.5...

The introduction of these two lay justice institutions-the quasi-jury
and grand jury (or PRC) systems-thereby has established alternative prosecutorial venues to bring about both the indictment and lay adjudication of
alleged crimes committed by those who have been formerly classified as
political "untouchables." The impact of the introduction of these twin systems
has created deliberative space infusing widely held public sentiments
and collective judgments in evaluating the prosecution and adjudication of
individuals whose actions are considered detrimental to the interests of the
general citizenry."

http://www.cklawreview.com/wp-content/uploads/vol86no2/11%20-%20Fuku ra i%20_Publish_HP3.pdf
 
2012-03-20 02:30:27 PM

RexTalionis: There's been no indication that the neighbors set up a neighborhood watch, only that Zimmerman told police that he was part of a neighborhood watch. The truth of the matter is, Zimmerman was not part of any registered neighborhood watch group.


Really? So, essentially, he had no business approaching the kid at all. If anything, it seems like the kid's attorney could claim self-defense under Florida's law. An armed man approaches a juvenile and confronts him? Even if the kid did beat Zimmerman up, the law looks like it favors the kid more than it favors Zimmerman. The kid was the one entitled to use force standing his ground. Florida is one seriously effed up place.
 
2012-03-20 02:31:19 PM

vpb: mauricecano: Seems the DA is digging into this much more thoroughly than the local police. You can claim self defense but you also have the burden to prove it. If the voice analysis shows the kid was screaming for help this guy will be having a seat at the defendant's table soon.

Not unless something has happened to presumption of innocence.


You really support this guy don't you VPB, based on all your comments?

Regardless, you misunderstand the presumption of innocence concept. Presumption of innocence only applies to juries and judges, not to the rest of society. To the rest of society you can be assumed guilty or innocent all day long since their opinion has no legal detriment to you. The DA's office most definitely doesn't have to assume you're innocent but they also have to prove that non-innocence to the jury/judge before legal consequences can occur.

So here there is evidence to support both sides. However, under stand your ground you cannot go out looking for fights and then stand the ground with deadly force once the fight goes against you. Even if the kid was hitting the guys after the guy accosted the kid, deadly force must still be reasonable under the law. If the voice shows the kid yelling for help many factors change in favor of further prosecution. A kid under duress and in fear of his safety, enough so that he calls out for help, after being confronted/accosted by an aggressor doesn't give the aggressor any footing to then claim he was just standing his ground. Remember the claim of standing your ground is a type of defense that the aggressor must prove to the jury/judge.

Is it murder? Personally I don't think you can get premeditated based on all the facts and given the locale. However, second degree murder or intentional manslaughter most definitely fits the facts of the case as well as federal civil rights violations.
 
2012-03-20 02:31:25 PM

jbuist: staplermofo: I mean, the kid had Skittles.

Yes, he had Skittles and was on top of the man beating the tar out of him according to one report.

Don't get me wrong, the guy that called 911 and followed the black kid is an idiot. But he might have actually been in danger. Own damned fault he got INTO that danger, but you shouldn't beat the piss out of people either.


Are you Farking kidding me? This asshole chases this kid down and you expect this young man not to be on guard when said asshole grabs him and questions him for WALKING DOWN THE STREET? Fark you.
 
2012-03-20 02:31:34 PM

Hobodeluxe: bhcompy: Mrs.Sharpier: [i96.photobucket.com image 550x547]

It's easy to fault Fox News for lots of things, but Fox pretty much invariably covers national political and financial news and issues. This is neither financial nor political. It's a local issue that's blown up, like Casey Anthony. And who covered Casey Anthony the most? HLN, aka CNN2, the type of network that would carry those types of issues to a national audience.

oh bulls hit. Fox would be on this like white on rice if it was a white guy shot by a black guy.


And somehow it would be Obama's fault. Or a signal for a coming race war. Probably both.
 
2012-03-20 02:32:19 PM

someonelse: RexTalionis: There's been no indication that the neighbors set up a neighborhood watch, only that Zimmerman told police that he was part of a neighborhood watch. The truth of the matter is, Zimmerman was not part of any registered neighborhood watch group.

Really? So, essentially, he had no business approaching the kid at all. If anything, it seems like the kid's attorney could claim self-defense under Florida's law. An armed man approaches a juvenile and confronts him? Even if the kid did beat Zimmerman up, the law looks like it favors the kid more than it favors Zimmerman. The kid was the one entitled to use force standing his ground. Florida is one seriously effed up place.


"According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch Program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group -- another fact the police were not aware of at the time of the incident."
- ABC News (new window)
 
2012-03-20 02:34:25 PM

RexTalionis: someonelse: RexTalionis: There's been no indication that the neighbors set up a neighborhood watch, only that Zimmerman told police that he was part of a neighborhood watch. The truth of the matter is, Zimmerman was not part of any registered neighborhood watch group.

Really? So, essentially, he had no business approaching the kid at all. If anything, it seems like the kid's attorney could claim self-defense under Florida's law. An armed man approaches a juvenile and confronts him? Even if the kid did beat Zimmerman up, the law looks like it favors the kid more than it favors Zimmerman. The kid was the one entitled to use force standing his ground. Florida is one seriously effed up place.

"According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch Program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group -- another fact the police were not aware of at the time of the incident."
- ABC News (new window)


a Neighborhood Watch database? that is just weird.
and where did I put my tin foil hat?
 
2012-03-20 02:39:05 PM
So this guy, Zimmerman, has a criminal record of assaulting law enforcement and the cops can't find probable cause to arrest him despite the clear and obvious bullshiat of his self-defense alibi?

You have to either be a complete moron or a member of a prison Aryan gang to believe this nonsense.
 
2012-03-20 02:41:25 PM

Hobodeluxe: oh bulls hit. Fox would be on this like white on rice if it was a white guy shot by a black guy.


Which happens all the time(just like every other ethnic combination of murder), yet somehow doesn't make national news or FNC.
 
2012-03-20 02:42:36 PM

GentDirkly: There is no need to arrest him until the investigation is complete.


It seems to me that in a lot of investigations, that would give everyone involved a head start on fleeing the state or the country. How is that handled?
 
2012-03-20 02:46:15 PM

pciszek: GentDirkly: There is no need to arrest him until the investigation is complete.

It seems to me that in a lot of investigations, that would give everyone involved a head start on fleeing the state or the country. How is that handled?


It makes everyone but Roman Polanski more guilty, so people tend not to do that.
 
2012-03-20 02:46:18 PM

jafiwam: That doesn't seem a bit biased to you?


Seems like lawyers doing their jobs to me.

jafiwam: LIke, why not go to you know, the police? Or, if you don't trust them, the FBI guys? Or, the DoJ guys?


Huh, another scurrilous accusation, rectally-retrieved.

How do you know she hasn't spoken to any or all of the above? You know, since they're investigating, and all...
 
2012-03-20 02:47:24 PM

Degenz: So this guy, Zimmerman, has a criminal record of assaulting law enforcement and the cops can't find probable cause to arrest him despite the clear and obvious bullshiat of his self-defense alibi?

You have to either be a complete moron or a member of a prison Aryan gang to believe this nonsense.


Or an officer of the law in Sanford, Florida, or Huntsville Alabama, or Baltimore Maryland, Or New York City, or Portland Oregon, or San Francisco California.


Every city in the country is seeing a massive upsurge in killings of unarmed people by Police Officers. The trend has been sharply upward for almost 25 years now.
 
2012-03-20 02:47:33 PM
Question: Under stand your ground law (i guess it may vary by state, but I'll narrow it to FL)... if one party is has a firearm and the other unarmed; is one required to even warn the person that one is armed and asked them to back down or is it really that much of a free-for-all where you can shoot someone on the spot w/o any warning?
 
2012-03-20 02:48:36 PM

Deucednuisance: jafiwam: LIke, why not go to you know, the police? Or, if you don't trust them, the FBI guys? Or, the DoJ guys?

Huh, another scurrilous accusation, rectally-retrieved.

How do you know she hasn't spoken to any or all of the above? You know, since they're investigating, and all...


Considering that the police have been caught trying to change the details of witness accounts in favor of Zimmerman, would you blame the girl for not wanting to give evidence to the police?
 
2012-03-20 02:51:16 PM

Deucednuisance: jafiwam: LIke, why not go to you know, the police? Or, if you don't trust them, the FBI guys? Or, the DoJ guys?

Huh, another scurrilous accusation, rectally-retrieved.

How do you know she hasn't spoken to any or all of the above? You know, since they're investigating, and all...


From the start, Trayvon's family accused Sanford police of molding the investigation to fit Zimmerman's account. Several witnesses said they heard cries that sounded like a boy wailing - howling silenced by the crack of gunfire - and were shocked to hear police later portray the cries as Zimmerman's. One witness said police ignored her repeated phone calls. - Kansas City Star
 
2012-03-20 02:52:27 PM

RexTalionis: Deucednuisance: jafiwam: LIke, why not go to you know, the police? Or, if you don't trust them, the FBI guys? Or, the DoJ guys?

Huh, another scurrilous accusation, rectally-retrieved.

How do you know she hasn't spoken to any or all of the above? You know, since they're investigating, and all...

Considering that the police have been caught trying to change the details of witness accounts in favor of Zimmerman, would you blame the girl for not wanting to give evidence to the police?


I thought I'd read she had talked to investigators, but not Sanford cops.
 
2012-03-20 02:53:22 PM

pciszek: GentDirkly: There is no need to arrest him until the investigation is complete.

It seems to me that in a lot of investigations, that would give everyone involved a head start on fleeing the state or the country. How is that handled?


Excellent point. More often whether a suspected is arrested and the amount of bail has very little to do with exigent circumstance and everything to do with community outrage, an element that is strangely lacking here.

I've seen too many cases where the cops lacked probable cause and basically admitted to fabricating it in the interest of locking the suspect up while they gathered evidence.

Where is Fox News and all their enlightened followers who constantly biatch and whine about double standards?
 
2012-03-20 02:57:48 PM

RexTalionis: Considering that the police have been caught trying to change the details of witness accounts in favor of Zimmerman, would you blame the girl for not wanting to give evidence to the police?


Not one bit. It's probably taught to brown kids from the cradle that the cops are not your friends, from everything I've read about Sanford, FL.

Nevertheless, I still find the accusation that she spoke to lawyers to the exclusion every investigative body involved to be rank speculation.
 
2012-03-20 03:00:28 PM

Deathfrogg: Or an officer of the law in Sanford, Florida, or Huntsville Alabama, or Baltimore Maryland, Or New York City, or Portland Oregon, or San Francisco California.


Every city in the country is seeing a massive upsurge in killings of unarmed people by Police Officers. The trend has been sharply upward for almost 25 years now.


And so too has the trend of cops getting killed, at least in the last couple years.

The majority of cops are against these Castle Doctrine laws. Comparing this case to police corruption is apples and oranges.
 
2012-03-20 03:06:25 PM

rufus-t-firefly: Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
...
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got
something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
-
"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on."
-
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does
anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away ... shiat he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance...farking coons
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
-
"He said he lost the man"

Although Martin initially told his friend he wasn't going to run, he eventually did, she said, but the stranger managed to corner him.

" ...


I don't know what happened in this case but the FL gun law is very stupid in one way. Let's just assume for a second that the kid was kicking ass and taking names... until the gun is pulled where said kid turns into a giant scared shiatless crybaby. if he put the gun away and the kid runs off alive... the guy goes to jail for pulling the gun even though just pulling it solved his immediate danger. By pulling and shooting it's legal.

There are so many other gray areas in the concealed carry law it is simply insane.
 
2012-03-20 03:15:45 PM
They should put him in jail with Dharun Ravi.
 
2012-03-20 03:20:17 PM
Come on people... its pretty clear what happened here. Zimmerman probably confronted the teen, WITHOUT brandishing his weapon... the teen then acted like a young and successful black male, and got up in his face, and started a scuffle. Zimmerman ended the scuffle by drawing his weapon and shooting the teen in the chest.

Everybody was in the wrong, but by the letter of the law, this clears Zimmerman. The kid never had the right to start a physical altercation, regardless of anything Zimmerman said to him. If Zimmerman had really "pulled out a gun and chased the kid"

A) The kid would have been shot in the back, not the chest

B) The kid would have called 911 himself, not decided to bring his skinny little fist to a gun fight.

Its a sad situation, but planned murder is not what happened here. Multiple witnesses report Zimmerman calling for help, followed by the *other* guy saying "no, no!" and then a got shot. He thought he would be a tough little thug and show this old(er) guy whats up, and its a gamble that he lost.
 
2012-03-20 03:24:05 PM

Alonjar: Come on people... its pretty clear what happened here. Zimmerman probably confronted the teen, WITHOUT brandishing his weapon... the teen then acted like a young and successful black male, and got up in his face, and started a scuffle. Zimmerman ended the scuffle by drawing his weapon and shooting the teen in the chest.

Everybody was in the wrong, but by the letter of the law, this clears Zimmerman. The kid never had the right to start a physical altercation, regardless of anything Zimmerman said to him. If Zimmerman had really "pulled out a gun and chased the kid"


Troll or idiot? Hard to tell these days.
 
2012-03-20 03:26:03 PM

Alonjar: Come on people... its pretty clear what happened here. Zimmerman probably confronted the teen, WITHOUT brandishing his weapon... the teen then acted like a young and successful black male, and got up in his face, and started a scuffle. Zimmerman ended the scuffle by drawing his weapon and shooting the teen in the chest.

Everybody was in the wrong, but by the letter of the law, this clears Zimmerman. The kid never had the right to start a physical altercation, regardless of anything Zimmerman said to him. If Zimmerman had really "pulled out a gun and chased the kid"

A) The kid would have been shot in the back, not the chest

B) The kid would have called 911 himself, not decided to bring his skinny little fist to a gun fight.

Its a sad situation, but planned murder is not what happened here. Multiple witnesses report Zimmerman calling for help, followed by the *other* guy saying "no, no!" and then a got shot. He thought he would be a tough little thug and show this old(er) guy whats up, and its a gamble that he lost.


2/10
 
2012-03-20 03:26:24 PM

Satanic_Hamster:
Troll or idiot? Hard to tell these days.


The two aren't mutually exclusive.
 
2012-03-20 03:26:54 PM

cirby: mauricecano:
If the voice analysis shows the kid was screaming for help this guy will be having a seat at the defendant's table soon.

...and if the voice analysis shows the shooter was screaming for help, you're going to change sides, then? The kid's lawyers have already been caught misrepresenting what was on the tape - when Martin's mother heard the tape, she said it wasn't her son screaming, but changed her story after the lawyers showed up. The lawyers also claimed there were two gunshots, but there was only one shot fired.

The first 911 call is interesting, too - the kid was apparently casing a house for a burglary, and wasn't "just walking through" the gated neighborhood (after dark, by the way).

He was on a five day suspension from school (you don't get five day suspensions for trivial reasons).

A witness saw Martin beating Zimmerman, who was flat on his back.

A lot of people are trying to make this a big racial incident, and it's going to be very interesting when they discover the fact that the shooter was Hispanic (yes, his name is George Zimmerman, but he's Hispanic nonetheless).

The press keeps trying to slant this as a racial violence story, but as more actual details come out, the more it sounds like a "punk who was casing a house to burglarize, got caught, attacked the guy who caught him, and got shot" story.


Can you kindly explain how the shooter possibly being Hispanic makes it not a racial incident?
 
2012-03-20 03:30:50 PM
I kind of get the feeling that most of the people defending this Zimmerman prick are basically your average NRA microdick-waving assholes. Not all, mind you, but most.
 
2012-03-20 03:32:34 PM
Wasnt a troll attempt at all. That seems like the obvious scenario to me.

You can make up whatever bullshiat race card crap you want, doesnt change what happened.

If the kid was completely innocent, Zimmerman would not have been bleeding from his face and the back of his head. If the kid was just minding his own business and had a crazy man start following him and asking him accusational questions in his own neighborhood, he would have called police on his own cell phone.

Nobody handled this situation properly. Two different sets of poor decisions led to someone losing their life. Thats all there is to it.
 
2012-03-20 03:36:48 PM
I can't tell if 99% of the people in this thread are full-on-retarded or trolling.

The dispatcher's "advice" means absolutely nothing. You're not obligated to listen to a dispatcher for jack shiat, because they know jack shiat. It's not even close to a lawful order.

Following someone isn't a crime. Nor is confronting someone. Nor is either an indication of intent.

And there have been plenty of viable (and reasonable) self-defense defenses set forth by an instigator of a situation.
 
2012-03-20 03:37:47 PM

Deucednuisance: Not one bit. It's probably taught to brown kids from the cradle that the cops are not your friends, from everything I've read about Sanford, FL.


It's not just in Sanford. And not just for the brown folks.
 
2012-03-20 03:37:50 PM

Alonjar: Everybody was in the wrong, but by the letter of the law, this clears Zimmerman



You know very little about the law, and what you know you misunderstand.

You can't shoot people for a fistfight. Not when you are:

A. Older
B. Bigger
C. Armed
D. The instigator

And you really need to sit down and think why you ASSUME the boy acted in one way and ASSUME Zimmerman acted in another against all information that we have available.

So...why is that?

Hmmm?
 
2012-03-20 03:38:24 PM

Alonjar: Come on people... its pretty clear what happened here. Zimmerman probably confronted the teen, WITHOUT brandishing his weapon... the teen then acted like a young and successful black male, and got up in his face, and started a scuffle. Zimmerman ended the scuffle by drawing his weapon and shooting the teen in the chest.

Everybody was in the wrong, but by the letter of the law, this clears Zimmerman. The kid never had the right to start a physical altercation, regardless of anything Zimmerman said to him. If Zimmerman had really "pulled out a gun and chased the kid"

A) The kid would have been shot in the back, not the chest

B) The kid would have called 911 himself, not decided to bring his skinny little fist to a gun fight.

Its a sad situation, but planned murder is not what happened here. Multiple witnesses report Zimmerman calling for help, followed by the *other* guy saying "no, no!" and then a got shot. He thought he would be a tough little thug and show this old(er) guy whats up, and its a gamble that he lost.


Yet witnesses saw the teenager being chased by Zimmerman. If you are actively chasing down someone, you are no longer standing your ground. In a normal situation, if someone does not identify him or herself as an officer of the law, and was questioning you, what would you do? If that person was persistent and then got out of his car, that ramps up the tension of the situation. So I can see the teen wanting to flee from someone almost twice his size.
 
2012-03-20 03:45:49 PM

Alonjar: If the kid was completely innocent, Zimmerman would not have been bleeding from his face and the back of his head. If the kid was just minding his own business and had a crazy man start following him and asking him accusational questions in his own neighborhood, he would have called police on his own cell phone.


When you were 17, If you got grabbed by the arm by a stranger at night , what would you have done? Politely ask your assaillant to wait while you hung up with your girlfriend and called 911, or would you have fought back?

Also, I am whiter than white and Canadian to boot, so my experience of race relations is definitely not the same as Martin's, so I may be wrong, but I have been lead to believe that black kids in the US have a distrust of police, which some might even go as fas as say is justified. It might not have come to him as a reflex to dial 911, when he saw that there was a creepy dude following him.
 
2012-03-20 03:46:22 PM

Mrs.Sharpier: GiantBat: You farkers are amazing.

You're able to glean the details of this event from virtually no facts or evidence .

Farkin' amazing!

What are you talking about?

here are the facts:

1. Zimmerman called the police to report Martin's "suspicious" behavior, which he described as "just walking around looking about."

2. Zimmerman pursued Martin against the explicit instructions of the police dispatcher:

3. Prior to the release of the 911 tapes, Zimmerman's father released a statement claiming "[a]t no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin."

4. Zimmerman was carrying a a 9 millimeter handgun. Martin was carrying a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea

5. Martin weighed 140 pounds. Zimmerman weighs 250 pounds

6. Martin's English teacher described him as "as an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness."

7. Martin had no criminal record


/this child is now dead, his murderer is at home. the child's parents are seeing no justice at all in the killing of their son.

THESE ARE THE FACTS


8. Zimmerman was as habitual 9-11 caller. And a "self appointed" neighborhood watch " captain".
 
2012-03-20 03:46:57 PM

Alonjar: Wasnt a troll attempt at all. That seems like the obvious scenario to me.

You can make up whatever bullshiat race card crap you want, doesnt change what happened.

If the kid was completely innocent, Zimmerman would not have been bleeding from his face and the back of his head. If the kid was just minding his own business and had a crazy man start following him and asking him accusational questions in his own neighborhood, he would have called police on his own cell phone.

Nobody handled this situation properly. Two different sets of poor decisions led to someone losing their life. Thats all there is to it.


What business did Zimmerman have chasing a kid who was doing nothing wrong? The kid did the right thing, he recognized that somebody was following him, felt he was in danger and tried to get himself out of the situation by running. That should have ended Zimmerman's involvement right there, but Zimmerman decided to chase the kid. So if the kid did kick Zimmerman's ass he was justified in doing so because being followed and chased by a stranger would lead one to believe that they are in danger and would justify defending yourself.

Killing somebody after they beat your ass because you followed them for no reason, chased them because they ran and then cornered them is not self defense.
 
2012-03-20 03:48:42 PM

Alonjar: If the kid was completely innocent, Zimmerman would not have been bleeding from his face and the back of his head.


I can think of a very good way for those two things to have happened. He's a fat fark with a bad attitude, and he was chasing a young athlete, at night, in the rain.

He farking slipped and whacked his noggin. Explains the marks and the wet clothes.

And the anger that made him shoot an unarmed 17-year-old kid.

It's at least as likely, or more so than your imaginary scenario, which seems to completely ignore the two cell phone calls, but can't let inconvenient things get in the way of a good story, can we?
 
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