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(YouGov)   You're not going to believe this, but Republicans and Democrats have their own set of "facts" on how the economy is doing   (today.yougov.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Republican, Democrats, Daniel Patrick Moynihan  
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1974 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Mar 2012 at 3:30 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-03-19 02:09:48 PM  
Wow. It's really sad how many of us are misinformed about basic things that affect us.
 
2012-03-19 02:11:46 PM  
That's also a very interesting site. Thanks, subby!
 
2012-03-19 02:24:35 PM  
Everyone knows that facts have a liberal bias.
 
2012-03-19 02:28:20 PM  

make me some tea: That's also a very interesting site. Thanks, subby!


It was a link on I found on freethoughtblogs. I have found almost all my greens there.
 
2012-03-19 02:35:30 PM  
DNRTFA, but I would assume the adage of lies/damn lies/statistics comes into play somehow?
 
2012-03-19 02:37:40 PM  
the upshot is, basically, if you watch fox news, you're a farking moron.
 
2012-03-19 02:54:17 PM  

namatad: Everyone knows that facts have a liberal bias.


Except for employment numbers, which are a bit moderate, apparently.
 
2012-03-19 02:57:50 PM  
I think Carlos Castaneda wrote a book on this subject

/entitled A Separate Reality
 
2012-03-19 03:04:49 PM  

SphericalTime: namatad: Everyone knows that facts have a liberal bias.

Except for employment numbers, which are a bit moderate, apparently.


that's a tougher question. if you simply take the unemployment number now and the unemployment number in jan 09, yes, it's up slightly. but if you look at it over obama's entire first term, unemployment has gone down substantially from its peak in november of '09, and if you look at jobs added versus lost, the trend reverses itself around march of '09, at about the same time the dow hit its bottom. so it may be understandable that people might think the rate has gone down, when in fact it's actually a bit higher. and if you take out the stimulus - which every single house republican voted against, economists vary, but most think the unemployment rate would've peaked at between 11 and 16 percent.

so, as a lagging indicator, and following the near total collapse of the global economy under bush, "up a bit" is pretty farking good as far as unemployment is concerned.
 
2012-03-19 03:12:10 PM  
So vote Republican...?
 
2012-03-19 03:12:36 PM  

FlashHarry: the upshot is, basically, if you watch fox news, you're a farking moron

infromed
 
2012-03-19 03:15:13 PM  
So, both the dems and the reps were wrong. The dems by a little, the GOP by a lot.

That's about normal.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-03-19 03:24:13 PM  
It is kind of interesting that almost 2/3ds of Democrats didn't know that taxes have declined under Obama. Too much liberal bias in the MSM I guess.
 
2012-03-19 03:32:01 PM  
The economy, by it's very nature, does not move quickly. Or more accurately, when it moves quickly in any direction, that's a strong indication that something is very, very wrong.
 
2012-03-19 03:33:38 PM  
Its almost like when we talk about a socially created reality, different segments of society have different realities. Color me shocked. What is this sociology 301 or something?
 
2012-03-19 03:36:05 PM  

FlashHarry: SphericalTime: namatad: Everyone knows that facts have a liberal bias.

Except for employment numbers, which are a bit moderate, apparently.

that's a tougher question. if you simply take the unemployment number now and the unemployment number in jan 09, yes, it's up slightly. but if you look at it over obama's entire first term, unemployment has gone down substantially from its peak in november of '09, and if you look at jobs added versus lost, the trend reverses itself around march of '09, at about the same time the dow hit its bottom. so it may be understandable that people might think the rate has gone down, when in fact it's actually a bit higher. and if you take out the stimulus - which every single house republican voted against, economists vary, but most think the unemployment rate would've peaked at between 11 and 16 percent.

so, as a lagging indicator, and following the near total collapse of the global economy under bush, "up a bit" is pretty farking good as far as unemployment is concerned.


If I understand the graph, then the numbers are at least moving in the correct direction, which is a drastic change from Bush.
 
2012-03-19 03:36:40 PM  
The unemployment number one is tricky because of the wording of the question. The "correct" answer is it only went up a little bit since its at 8.3% today and was at 7.9% when he took office.

However, the question wasn't "Is the unemployment rate today higher, lower, or the same as it was when Obama took over". Instead the question is "Do you think the unemployment rate has increased or decreased since Obama became President". And the unemployment rate DID go up quite a bit during Obama's first few years, so saying it went up is I think a "correct" response. Just because it has fallen almost down to pre-Obama levels doesn't change the fact that it was higher for much of the time.
 
2012-03-19 03:36:53 PM  
Oh boy, another BSABSVR.

*click*

Ooo, Larry Bartels, this might actually be informative. WTF is Fark greening something non-trolltastic?
 
2012-03-19 03:36:53 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: So, both the dems and the reps were wrong. The dems by a little, the GOP by a lot.

That's about normal.


It's really amazing though--or maybe it's not amazing, what percentage of Rs marked Increase A LOT on both questions, when the correct answer is decreased a little.

That's what happens though, when we have hyperpartisan hyperbolists shouting DOOM on the TV and radio every single day.
 
2012-03-19 03:38:32 PM  
As political scientist Morris Fiorina put it long ago, "In order to ascertain whether the incumbents have performed poorly or well, citizens need only calculate the changes in their own welfare." Are we better off now than we were four years ago?

I actually said about 3 years ago this was the platform Obama should run his re-election campaign on. If it's a winning campaign, he earned it. If it's a losing campaign, then he deserves to lose. I've emailed people in his campaign a bunch of times every time they solicit me for money by telling me what Rmoney or Palin have been saying. No one ever writes back. :-/
 
2012-03-19 03:39:32 PM  

FlashHarry: SphericalTime: namatad: Everyone knows that facts have a liberal bias.

Except for employment numbers, which are a bit moderate, apparently.

that's a tougher question. if you simply take the unemployment number now and the unemployment number in jan 09, yes, it's up slightly. but if you look at it over obama's entire first term, unemployment has gone down substantially from its peak in november of '09, and if you look at jobs added versus lost, the trend reverses itself around march of '09, at about the same time the dow hit its bottom. so it may be understandable that people might think the rate has gone down, when in fact it's actually a bit higher. and if you take out the stimulus - which every single house republican voted against, economists vary, but most think the unemployment rate would've peaked at between 11 and 16 percent.

so, as a lagging indicator, and following the near total collapse of the global economy under bush, "up a bit" is pretty farking good as far as unemployment is concerned.


Perfect setup to demonstrate the headline. Now we wait patiently for the Derp Brigade to refute everything you just said with their set of "facts".

/shhh
//let's watch
 
2012-03-19 03:40:12 PM  
I find the salient fact that the 2009 deficit figures "belong" to Bush, not Obama, escape many many GOPers.

I also prefer that big ticket items, like the Iraq War, be included in my federal budgets. This makes me a Democrat.
 
2012-03-19 03:41:03 PM  
Sooo... Republicans are idiots. What's new?
 
2012-03-19 03:41:25 PM  
Not to completely disregard the site (which was very informative), there could be some other variables in play. For example, if people polled about unemployment, they may refer to local/regional unemployment since Obama took office. In Evansville, Indiana, the Whirlpool plant closed down and moved to Mexico recently; if I had factory workers who are now out of a job, unemployment is more noticeable and therefore up in my perception. Even if numerical evidence is to the contrary, my perception is unemployment increased. That's more of a polling/subjective interpretation problem than a political one.

But, the people who may be misinformed tend to cluster around conservatism - which only adds to misinformation.

Vote Republican anyway, I guess.
 
2012-03-19 03:41:44 PM  
And Romney uses both of them...
 
2012-03-19 03:41:58 PM  
Let's rephrase the headline: Republicans believe in Bizarro world and deny facts so they can keep in believing bullshiat.

I admit there is some things that Democrats lie about or are biased about but it's no where near the complete made up world that Republicans create in their own minds.

Saying "both sides are just as bad" is complete bullshiat.
 
2012-03-19 03:43:23 PM  
Frankly I didn't know the answer to whether unemployment had gone up or down, on balance; I knew (as every reasonably informed citizen should) that it went up and then came back down and was currently at 8.3%, but I couldn't have told you if it was greater or less than 8.3% when Obama was sworn in. I guess if pressed I would have answered that it was about the same.
 
2012-03-19 03:45:26 PM  

otherginger: I find the salient fact that the 2009 deficit figures "belong" to Bush, not Obama, escape many many GOPers.

I also prefer that big ticket items, like the Iraq War, be included in my federal budgets. This makes me a Democrat.


No I have their excuse on your top item. They said because there was never a new official budget bill passed (even though the one Bush sent to congress was just as bad) and they had to use the appropriation amount of the previous years (which was a Bush budget) then somehow that makes it "Obama spending".


It's pretty funny.
 
2012-03-19 03:46:47 PM  

ShawnDoc: The unemployment number one is tricky because of the wording of the question. The "correct" answer is it only went up a little bit since its at 8.3% today and was at 7.9% when he took office.

However, the question wasn't "Is the unemployment rate today higher, lower, or the same as it was when Obama took over". Instead the question is "Do you think the unemployment rate has increased or decreased since Obama became President". And the unemployment rate DID go up quite a bit during Obama's first few years, so saying it went up is I think a "correct" response. Just because it has fallen almost down to pre-Obama levels doesn't change the fact that it was higher for much of the time.


Some guy was in the United States car, heading the wrong direction at 85mph with his feet actually on the gas. Obama took over and applied the brakes. It took him a year to stop the car. Then he turned the car around and started heading in the correct direction at around 15mph. Therefore the guy who took over is mostly bad?

farm8.staticflickr.com

Obama's critics used jobs for the first year because we were losing jobs. Then we started gaining jobs so they switched it to unemployment. Then unemployment started going down so they switched it to underemployment and talking about the people who gave up.

If the worst you can possibly say about the guy is "it is getting better now under Obama but not fast enough" you're probably right, he is black.
 
2012-03-19 03:46:52 PM  

otherginger: I find the salient fact that the 2009 deficit figures "belong" to Bush, not Obama, escape many many GOPers.

I also prefer that big ticket items, like the Iraq War, be included in my federal budgets. This makes me a Democrat.



And fiscally responsible...
 
2012-03-19 03:48:14 PM  
Im entitled to my own facts and freedom of speech means you need to respect them.
 
2012-03-19 03:48:53 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: both the dems and the reps were wrong. The dems by a little, the GOP by a lot.


Modern American politics in a nutshell.
 
2012-03-19 03:50:43 PM  
Facts != opinions.
 
2012-03-19 03:51:28 PM  
http://www.sheckymagazine.com/webart/black.jpg

"There are no fact, facts!"
 
2012-03-19 03:51:47 PM  
fta: According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the unemployment rate at the time of the survey was 8.3%-a little higher than the 7.8% rate in January 2009, the month President Obama was inaugurated

Yes, but how much time have the RW media spent beating the "taxes and unemployment have increased a lot under Obama" propaganda into people? By controlling the narrative and telling massive whoppers over and over with a straight face those folks are affecting the consensual aspect of reality. One of the problems with the mass information age we all live in is that here is so many people who chose to only access the echo chambers that confirm and never challenge their own political biases and thus could be said to be living inside an illusion of their own choosing. Not conducive to a proper representative democracy at all, that.
 
2012-03-19 03:51:52 PM  

lennavan: Obama's critics used jobs for the first year because we were losing jobs. Then we started gaining jobs so they switched it to unemployment. Then unemployment started going down so they switched it to underemployment and talking about the people who gave up.


And now the labor force participation rate is going back up at the same time that both jobs and stock values are up and both unemployment and underemployment are down. They really have nothing left to attack him on economically except for "we could have made it better," and that is a difficult needle to thread when you only have negative policies like Obamacare bad, taxes bad, and socialism bad.
 
2012-03-19 03:52:51 PM  
www.sheckymagazine.com

"There are no fact, facts!"
 
2012-03-19 03:53:02 PM  
the success of the economy is somewhat a function of popular thought and mood. if most people think the economy is doing crappy they are afraid to go out and spend and invest. Sadly, Republicans are using this to their advantage to scare the shiat out of people because they hate Obama more than they love America.
 
2012-03-19 03:53:37 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: So, both the dems and the reps were wrong. The dems by a little, the GOP by a lot.

That's about normal.


But the important thing to remember is that they were both wrong, so they are both the same. So you should vote Republican.
 
2012-03-19 03:54:26 PM  

SphericalTime: FlashHarry: SphericalTime: namatad: Everyone knows that facts have a liberal bias.

Except for employment numbers, which are a bit moderate, apparently.

that's a tougher question. if you simply take the unemployment number now and the unemployment number in jan 09, yes, it's up slightly. but if you look at it over obama's entire first term, unemployment has gone down substantially from its peak in november of '09, and if you look at jobs added versus lost, the trend reverses itself around march of '09, at about the same time the dow hit its bottom. so it may be understandable that people might think the rate has gone down, when in fact it's actually a bit higher. and if you take out the stimulus - which every single house republican voted against, economists vary, but most think the unemployment rate would've peaked at between 11 and 16 percent.

so, as a lagging indicator, and following the near total collapse of the global economy under bush, "up a bit" is pretty farking good as far as unemployment is concerned.

If I understand the graph, then the numbers are at least moving in the correct direction, which is a drastic change from Bush.


Government advertised unemployment numbers mean jack shiat in isolation. participation rates are a critical factor as to what drives unemployment.
 
2012-03-19 03:56:18 PM  
Democrats and Republicans have different sets of facts? That nothing - republicans have different sets of fact's depending on who's running for election. As any republican senator to give a speach at a rally for a republican candidate for governor and the economy is just fine - chocolate rivers and titty sprinkles for everone; ask him to give a speach about Obama and the economy just released the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
 
2012-03-19 03:58:41 PM  

otherginger: I find the salient fact that the 2009 deficit figures "belong" to Bush, not Obama, escape many many GOPers.

I also prefer that big ticket items, like the Iraq War, be included in my federal budgets. This makes me a Democrat.


I find the salient fact that Bush never signed FY09 escape many retards.

Pelosi and Reid used continuing measures to continue spending with FY09 signed in Feb... By guess who?

I prefer my federal budgets to actually be passed at all. But I'm not a retarded partisan.
 
2012-03-19 03:58:54 PM  

lennavan:
Obama's critics used jobs for the first year because we were losing jobs. Then we started gaining jobs so they switched it to unemployment. Then unemployment started going down so they switched it to underemployment and talking about the people who gave up.

If the worst you can possibly say about the guy is "it is getting better now under Obama but not fast enough" you're probably right, he is black.


www.ermac.org
 
2012-03-19 04:00:26 PM  

lennavan: As political scientist Morris Fiorina put it long ago, "In order to ascertain whether the incumbents have performed poorly or well, citizens need only calculate the changes in their own welfare." Are we better off now than we were four years ago?

I actually said about 3 years ago this was the platform Obama should run his re-election campaign on. If it's a winning campaign, he earned it. If it's a losing campaign, then he deserves to lose. I've emailed people in his campaign a bunch of times every time they solicit me for money by telling me what Rmoney or Palin have been saying. No one ever writes back. :-/


That's a great idea.

Emailing them directly won't do much, your emails get lost in the thousands they receive daily. Best thing to get this idea out is to post this idea wherever you can and wherever it's relevant, and try to get others to pick up on it as well and flood them. Social media direct democracy FTW
 
2012-03-19 04:00:35 PM  
lennavan :

Ive always wondered what the jobs report looks like since Bush's took over in 2001. It looks pretty deceiving as it is.
 
2012-03-19 04:02:57 PM  

Corvus: Let's rephrase the headline: Republicans believe in Bizarro world and deny facts so they can keep in believing bullshiat.

I admit there is some things that Democrats lie about or are biased about but it's no where near the complete made up world that Republicans create in their own minds.

Saying "both sides are just as bad" is complete bullshiat.


HOW PARTISAN NON-INDEPENDENTY UNAMERICAN OF YOU
 
2012-03-19 04:04:30 PM  

lennavan: Some guy was in the United States car, heading the wrong direction at 85mph with his feet actually on the gas. Obama took over and applied the brakes. It took him a year to stop the car. Then he turned the car around and started heading in the correct direction at around 15mph. Therefore the guy who took over is mostly bad?

farm8.staticflickr.com

Obama's critics used jobs for the first year because we were losing jobs. Then we started gaining jobs so they switched it to unemployment. Then unemployment started going down so they switched it to underemployment and talking about the people who gave up.

If the worst you can possibly say about the guy is "it is getting better now under Obama but not fast enough" you're probably right, he is black.


The question in the article is about the unemployment rate and whether it went up after Obama became president. Your graph isn't the unemployment rate nor did it address the question/answer in the linked article.

While your graph is a nice one, and should be part of a larger discussion about the economy and the results of the stimulus, it doesn't directly affect what is being discussed.
 
2012-03-19 04:07:17 PM  

Karac: Democrats and Republicans have different sets of facts? That nothing - republicans have different sets of fact's depending on who's running for election. As any republican senator to give a speach at a rally for a republican candidate for governor and the economy is just fine - chocolate rivers and titty sprinkles for everone; ask him to give a speach about Obama and the economy just released the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.


Mitt Romney has different sets of facts depending on which day of the week it is.
 
2012-03-19 04:08:44 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Not to completely disregard the site (which was very informative), there could be some other variables in play. For example, if people polled about unemployment, they may refer to local/regional unemployment since Obama took office. In Evansville, Indiana, the Whirlpool plant closed down and moved to Mexico recently; if I had factory workers who are now out of a job, unemployment is more noticeable and therefore up in my perception. Even if numerical evidence is to the contrary, my perception is unemployment increased. That's more of a polling/subjective interpretation problem than a political one.

But, the people who may be misinformed tend to cluster around conservatism - which only adds to misinformation.

Vote Republican anyway, I guess.


I would imagine that does come into play, yes, but the question wasn't "has unemployment increased in your area". That much of a skewing of reality can only be the result of directed propaganda.
 
2012-03-19 04:19:14 PM  
I actually thought unemployment went down some as well. I guess I don't recall 2009 all that well.
 
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